Just to start it off, I believe that The Exile could in fact beat Ulic, whether it be a saber duel or with the force. She has beaten more powerful foes then Ulic has (Atris, Sion, Traya) her experience compounded with her great saber and force skills would crush Ulic.
It is illogical to assume that because she's beaten more powerful foes than Ulic has, that she's more powerful. I can also counter that illogical assertion with my own stating that because Ulic tied Exar Kun, who is more powerful than any of the foes the Exile defeated, that Ulic can beat the exile. But lets not beat around the bush. As far as I'm concerned, the exile is a wound in the force, nothing more. She has not shown anything with a saber, and she hasn't proven to be more than an average force user with the fluke of being a wound. With that said, I believe Ulic absolutely rapes her with a saber. With the force though, Ulic hasn't shown much either so I don't care to argue that point.
I was only playing devils advocate to get the discussion started.
As far as her being "nothing more then a wound." is absolute BS, she throughout the course of KOTOR 2 proved herself time and time again. The masters during the training sessions were amazed by the speed at which she progressed not only that but in which the skill she wield the separate saber styles.
She's beaten Atris who had as the scene in the game projects dozens of Sith Holocrons which she has studied and grown more powerful from.
Lets look at The Exile while fighting on Trayus Academy where she on her own took out an Academy literally FULL of dark jedi and Sith troopers and beasts of Sith Alchemy, including one 4x's her size. Moreover each room in the academy was filled with at least 4 Dark Jedi. After she proceeds to kill about at LEAST 20 Dark Jedi she then fights the Sith Lord Sion whom she then beats 5 times in a row.
If that doesn't prove she's a beat I don't know what does.
After all this she then goes on to fight Traya who not only did she defeat in a straight up fight she then has to fight off three lightsabers drawn up, not limited by the sentient beings range of motion (meaning they have infinite angles to attack from) and she beats this.
But there's more as the masters noted on Dantooine after all the killing she's done through the galaxy she syphons the power from their deaths and adds it to her own, also she's leeched power from that of her teammates.
I'd REALLY like to see how Ulic can even hold a candle to that level of skill.
I could counter that argument by asking what Kun has done to make himself more impressive than Nihilus or Kreia? Outside of a few feats with his amulets, I would dare to say that Kun is a little overrated.
Secondly, arguing that the Exile is an average Jedi who lucked out with his/her wound, is like arguing that Superman is an average man who lucked out by living in a world with a yellow sun.
Basically, their individual abilities are connected to their natural gifts, the Exile (to his/her force bonding ability) and Superman (to his light absorbing cells and sub atomic density).
If the Exile didn't have the ability to form force bonds (consciously and subconsciously) with ease, then he/she wouldn't have been able to benefit from being a wound.
You basically have a character - in the Exile - that is given a reason for why they are powerful that goes beyond: "they were simply uber in the force".
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Last edited by Allankles on Apr 7th, 2007 at 06:12 AM
You mean besides being the most powerful person in the galaxy and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings including techniques that died with him? Nihilus had one maneuver due to him being a wound in the force and unfortunately for him, it didn't do much for him. Kreia also had a smaller version of that instakill but her power came from manipulation.
Except we have nothing to indicate that the Exile was more than an average Jedi who indeed lucked out by being a wound because it's how she killed Nihilus.
this has to do with what exactly? OH right, it's irrelevant.
Um..No
And AC, I'll get to your post tomorrow probably seeing as the majority of it deals with irrelevant gameplay mechanics and still doesn't explain how good the exile is with the force or the saber, while we know how good Ulic is.
what do you mean the number of dark jedi are not? That's like the argument about Revan supposedly defeating over 100 dark jedi, while having his companions with him. None of that is canon because you can't definitely tell me how many the exile kills. Also, I don't remember how killing a dark Jedi makes you uber powerful. We know Ulic stalemated Kun and then Sylvar without the force, so that alone would make him superior to the exile in saber combat.
Expect he didn't, and the number wasn't even close that but thats irrelevant since its not the same situation as the Exile did her feat by herself.
No, but I can assume she kills them since logically, when looking at the situation as a canon event(which it is) why would a bunch of Dark Jedi let some random chick just run by them?
And other then the fact that they attack you en mass as soon as you open the door, stealth belts and generators don't work.
And when removing this event from its gameplay context The Exile cannot take multiple lightsaber blows and shots from blasters thus she would have HAD to defend herself, and in all likely hood kill them.
But it doesn't matter if she killed them or not, all that matters is she immobilized a magnitude of Dark Jedi and Sith Troopers by herself.
I never said it did now did I? Its the NUMBER of how many DJ's she killed that makes it impressive compounded with the fact that after that she goes on to fight to Dark Lords of the Sith back to back, and win.
No. He didn't stalemate shit, he ran and occasionally parried a blow from an raging berserker.
And how do techniques that die with you help us to identify Kun as being more impressive than Nihilus and Kreia? And Nihilus knew more than one technique, and his power in the force was greater than Kun's anyway, so you don't have much of an argument here.
Kreia was also many times wiser, more knowledgeable and far more experienced in the force than Kun, so what did Kun ever do to be more impressive a Sith than Kreia? He was certainly a great fighter but beyond that he was quite lacking when compared to Kreia.
And defeating three of the most powerful Sith in the Kotor timeline so far is something an average Jedi would accomplish, right? Using your logic, Kun was nothing but an average man (in fact quite lacking in common sense) who lucked out by being force sensitive.
It's relevant, because it quite clearly indicates - as Kotor 2 indicated - that the Exile was always a unique Jedi with a unique connection to the force. Being called average - as you put it - in the context of Kotor 2 is quite meaningless given that an average Jedi wouldn't have achieved what the Exile achieved, before and during Kotor 2.
The fact that he's called average in the same game that he becomes a grand hero, only makes the Exile stand out among the elite Jedi heroes of SW because how many of those get called "average" in the middle of their grand adventures?"
Again, the whole average Jedi thing only has meaning in as far as character building is concerned (lending greater depth to the Vrook-Exile relationship) but is meaningless in the context of power or ability, because the Exile was quite clearly a Jedi of exceptional ability.
Um.... Yes. Brilliant rebuttal, our posts would be so much shorter if this is how we chose to write our counter arguments. The authors chose to give a reason for the Exile's growth in power that went beyond a simple "he was so uber" explanation.
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Trying to tribute power to the Exile because there were Dark Jedi in the academy is similar to trying to say the Luke, as of ANH, is extremely powerful because he was on a battle station with millions of Stormtroopers (That is an admittedly ridiculous scale to compare it to, though). He didn't fight every one.
How the Exile went about dealing with the Dark Jedi could be any number of ways. She could have used stealth, made them fight among themselves, or just lobbed grenades and ran. It could show some strength if she took on a group of random darksiders with an undefined amount of skill in single combat. Or it could show resourcefulness if she made them fight, or used grenades. Or it could show her good heart, in not wanting to kill (or her cowardice, or her realistic view, if she thought she couldn't beat them) if she used stealth. We just don't know.
More impressive? Kun's knowledge learned under Freedon Nadd and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings as opposed to Nihilus and Kreia who learned what, one maneuver on Malachor V? Nihilus didn't know more than one technique unless you count the basics, so you have yet another baseless assumption. Thanks for your opinion but without facts and logic(two things you fail to possess), you are wasting your time.
Wiser yes, knowledgable yes, more experienced yes, stronger? No. Yoda was also all of those things and more but could not defeat Sidious, so your point is moot, as always. This is beginning to look just like the Revan thread in which you were so horribly wtfpwned.
Good god, this is just like the Revan thread, your argument is dead. Saying that Kun was an average man who lucked out by being a force sensitive can apply to every force sensitive in the SW galaxy, dumbass. That was probably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum, and after that I don't think I need to continue arguing with you, you're beyond help.
That's my point. That's like saying Revan defeated hundreds of dark jedi by himself. Nobody knows how the exile won those fights, and there is still nothing to suggest the exile is an extremely powerful force user OR saber comabatant.
What a load, as I said removing this event from its gameplay context, any below average force user could use the force to either toss it back at her or simply move it a distance away from themselves.
"Fight amongst themselves?"
Except you don't get that power in game, and she's rushed by a bunch of DJ's who's obvious orders are "kill this chick." so really, is she gonna have a sit down and a heart to heart with each one? Getting them to turn to the light? No. It doesn't even make sense.
"She didn't want to kill."
She obviously has no problem with all the other killing she's done throughout the game, even the masters note it was a ridicules amount.
And the whole, "Well Luke didn't fight everyone on the Death Star so the Exile didn't fight every one in Trayus." Is also BS, unlike Luke, The Exile had to go through pretty much every room in the damn place to even get to Kreia.
We do know, she either logically killed them with a saber or with the force either way it shows her skill.
And really you act as if this is her only feat, you all go on and on about how powerful Kreia is, and yet the Exile beat her, legit, twice all the while she was using 3 lightsabers to combat her that alone makes her "up there" on the power charts, lets see Bane who's mind went crazy contemplating the endless possibilities of Jar Kari, contend with three lightsabers not bound by the human hand attack from every angle possible.
She's completely outclassed Sion who was himself capable of taking on Jedi Masters (Master Vash)
The logic of: Well she doesn't have "random uber powerful quote" so she's nothing special is BS.
Stop exaggerating, its annoying "Thats like sayin Revan took on TEHN TOUSAND!!!!!1111" No, its not as I've explained apply a little logic to the situation and you have your answer. What do ALL Jedi and Sith use to combat each other? The force or a saber, now why would the Exile be the ONLY one not to?
The DJ's could block blaster shots, they could toss back grenades, they also spot you when you use stealth combined with the gun torrents, what other means to beat them could she use? Really now be smart. Moreover her efforts against Kreia following that she's extremely competent with either the force or a saber.
So any above average Jedi could go through Trayus Academy, Beat Atris, Beat Sion, and beat Traya? Please, basically what your saying is someone like Aylaa Secura or Quinlan Vos could do the same thing the Exile did.
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Last edited by Dr. Styles on Apr 7th, 2007 at 06:04 PM
Pay Attention, I said killing a DJ isn't impressive, but killing 5 then 10 Sith Troopers while blocking blasters from a gun torrent is. Then proceeding to kill Sion and Traya makes it impressive.
breaking Sion's will and beating Traya isn't impressive. Who says Traya was uber powerful? Her skill lay in manipulation and aside from her force drain, she didn't show anything but the ability to manipulate everybody.
Uh yeah it is, after she's battled all that she fights Sion who himself is capable of fighting Jedi Masters and beats him 5 times.
Traya hasn't shown anything? How about when she blew away 10 Sith Assassins with the wave of her hand, making Sion bow to her, she's obviously been holding back.
Her skill with the levitating sabers further proves this, she's able to wield three sabers telepathically and able to use each one separately while simultaneously controlling the other two.
She's powerful enough to cloak herself from Jedi Masters while standing right next to them
She tore through Vrooks defenses with the flick of her hand.
She's performed the technique Jacen failed to do, when she successfully dug through Attons mind without killing him (it should be noted that Atton has had specific training to prevent this) She's hardly just some average Sith.
Apr 7th, 2007 05:06 AM
Using your logic, Kun was nothing but an average man (in fact quite lacking in common sense) who lucked out by being force sensitive.
