These powaful dudes vs. Those powaful dudes...

Team DC:

*OWAW Superman-- This version/mindset, not the sun-amped version.

*WWIII Black Adam

*Countdown Orion-- the levels he was at just before killing Darkseid.

*Majestic /w/ Kusar Blades-- assume he is lusting blood

*Hal at Krona-busting levels


vs.


Team Marvel:

*B&T Thor

*Decoupled Beta Ray Bill-- assume he can sustain these levels indefinitely.

*World Breakah Hulk

*Surfer--assume he is lusting blood.

*Sentry-- just before he went full crab/Void. No direct molecule manipulation can be used against his opponents.


Fight takes place in an indestructible/inescapable dome stitched from the same material as Wolverine's jeans.

Go!

Team 2 6/10

I think Superman and Orion tip it in favor of 1. This is Source amped Orion?

If it were Source-amped Orion, this would be spite in favor of team 1.

No, this is Orion as he was seen in Countdown #2, when he blew back the JLA with some sort of energy storm, and killed Darkseid. Here's that whole fight, for those who aren't sure what/who the phuck I'm talking about:

Holy crap, I thought Orion had the Source when he swatted the JLA away. Makes Orion even more powerful than I thought.

Anyway, who do you see winning, Galan?

I think team one's speed edge (Clark and Majestic) tips it in their favor. Throw in the versatility provided by Hal's ring and Orion's Astro Harness (more than enough to offset Norrin's array of powers via the PC), and I'd give the DC side 7/10 or so.

Hell of a fight, though.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Holy crap, I thought Orion had the Source when he swatted the JLA away. Makes Orion even more powerful than I thought. He may have had the Source-amp in Countdown, now that I think about it. I mean, it would correlate with the Source Being's statement in DotNG:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13096861/Death_Of_The_New_Gods-08-027.jpg.html
"Orion will be dispatched, to deal with Darkseid."

...Not sure, though. Orion certainly didn't act the same in Countdown, as he did in DotNG.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Anyway, who do you see winning, Galan? Undecided. Hoping to see some good arguments for both sides.

Orion had a good feat where he died against IM.

Wasn't there a screw up in the timeline between DONG and Countdown? Could go either way, really.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Orion had a good feat where he died against IM.

Was this Source Orion? Scans?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Wasn't there a screw up in the timeline between DONG and Countdown? Could go either way, really. Second scan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13096841/Countdown2p10.jpg.html
"Orion. You should have died along with the rest of the New Gods at the hands of the Infinity Man." --- so in that regard, the timeline was accurate.

But yeah, it's screwy. Some things in Countdown correlate with DotNG perfectly(and vice versa), and other things don't correlate at all.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Was this Source Orion? Scans? He's talking about this:








Hardly a feat. You can put your boner away now.

Why does Scott look so different?

He was possessed/empowered by the ALE at the time.

Team 2 kills.

How, carver? Genuinely curious.

B & T Thor pre Power Gem?

@Galan...

Sentry withstood a full blown Mjlonir strike from Thor. This doesn't include his matter manipulation ft that the team will have to deal with (let alone fail) and his insane healing abilities. He can take any of the members out.

Then we have Hulk...in this state he is physically the strongest member on the field. Then you made this a contained battle. I can't see many of them withstanding too many punches from this version of Hulk, especially in a contained area where his punches (shockwaves) would more than likely spread and hit other members on the opposing team (and probably his team as well).

Then you have Bill at his Prime...someone who completed something/without any trouble, that the combined might of Galactus Heralds was unable to do. This also doesn't include the fact that he beat Asteroth in this form. The hammer would also be a useful tool against Hal.

B&T Thor took on a group of high end Heralds and stomped them. No one short of Thanos was capable of stopping him and I would put Thanos above anyone on the opposing team.

The major issue I see for team Marvel is Majestic creation blades. He can decapitate anyone on the field with them. Sentry would be the best choice to fight him.

If Galan is using Source Orion as was shown above, Team 2 is in for some serious hurt.

Good match imo Superman and Orion make me believe team 1 takes the majority

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

Sentry withstood a full blown Mjlonir strike from Thor. This doesn't include his matter manipulation ft that the team will have to deal with (let alone fail) and his insane healing abilities. He can take any of the members out.

Then we have Hulk...in this state he is physically the strongest member on the field. Then you made this a contained battle. I can't see many of them withstanding too many punches from this version of Hulk, especially in a contained area where his punches (shockwaves) would more than likely spread and hit other members on the opposing team (and probably his team as well).

Then you have Bill at his Prime...someone who completed something/without any trouble, that the combined might of Galactus Heralds was unable to do. This also doesn't include the fact that he beat Asteroth in this form. The hammer would also be a useful tool against Hal.

B&T Thor took on a group of high end Heralds and stomped them. No one short of Thanos was capable of stopping him and I would put Thanos above anyone on the opposing team.

The major issue I see for team Marvel is Majestic creation blades. He can decapitate anyone on the field with them. Sentry would be the best choice to fight him.

Good write up.

Just a by the by, though, but molecule manip is out for Sentry.

Do you think Majestic with the blades could speedblitz a lot - 2,3,4 of them?

Aaaaahhhh, I didn't see where he took that off for Sentry. I would still say Sentry could beat anyone on the opposing team in this state.

In character, I can't see Majestic blitzing around. Now if that was to happen, yes, I can see Maj taking out the whole group.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
B & T Thor pre Power Gem? Yes.

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

Sentry withstood a full blown Mjlonir strike from Thor. This doesn't include his matter manipulation ft that the team will have to deal with (let alone fail) and his insane healing abilities. He can take any of the members out.

Then we have Hulk...in this state he is physically the strongest member on the field. Then you made this a contained battle. I can't see many of them withstanding too many punches from this version of Hulk, especially in a contained area where his punches (shockwaves) would more than likely spread and hit other members on the opposing team (and probably his team as well).

Then you have Bill at his Prime...someone who completed something/without any trouble, that the combined might of Galactus Heralds was unable to do. This also doesn't include the fact that he beat Asteroth in this form. The hammer would also be a useful tool against Hal.

B&T Thor took on a group of high end Heralds and stomped them. No one short of Thanos was capable of stopping him and I would put Thanos above anyone on the opposing team.

The major issue I see for team Marvel is Majestic creation blades. He can decapitate anyone on the field with them. Sentry would be the best choice to fight him. I excluded matter manipulation for Sentry.

Hulk might be the strongest on the field physically, but he is also the slowest on the field, by far... Something to think about.

Decoupled Bill is a massive powerhouse, no way around it-- he was able to do better against the I'than armada than Surfer and Stardust.

B&T Thor was massively powerful, however, Bill alone did quite well against him... Something else to think about.

---

As for the DC side:
Superman, in that mindset, was one-shotting Imperiex Probes like they were fodder.

WWIII Black Adam took on some of the most powerful heroes on DC earth simultaneously. He was, essentially, 'normal' BA x10.

Countdown Orion swatted the JLA away with a gesture and killed Darkseid *see scans posted earlier*.

Majestic has the strength and speed to contend with anyone here by himself. Adding his Kusar blades gives him the ability to cut/block energy attacks used against him, and/or flay anyone on the other team with rapid succession. Anyone.

I shouldn't have to extrapolate on Krona-buster Hal...


Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by carver9
In character, I can't see Majestic blitzing around. Now if that was to happen, yes, I can see Maj taking out the whole group. He's bloodlusted here, so yeah, speed is most certainly an option he'd be using.

...But it's also an option for the other team.

Team 2 wins at least 6/10

Given the power output of the contestants of team one (particularly OWAW Supes, Orion, and Hal), it's not a stretch to suggest that they would be at or above Thanos's B&T levels for this fight. Remember that B&T Thor + the Power Gem couldn't drop that version of Thanos; removing the PG for this fight gimps him, and IMO, makes him a (relative) weak link for team two along with Hulk.

The strongest two on Marvel's side are Bill and Norrin, with Bill being the biggest issue (the enclosure mitigates flight/maneuverability to some extent, and makes CQC a necessity) because of his ability to brawl as well as the versatility afforded him via Stormbreaker. Surfer has to keep his range to be at his most effective, IMO; unfortunately, with the stips, I don't see him faring as well against guys with the speed and strength to contend with him.

^ The Hulk is the weakest on the field? I must be missing something. You couldn't be more wrong BTW, especially when contained in a restrictive space.

I have strong doubts of Bill being as powerful as B&T Thor, considering the beating he gave him, and Drax.

Hal could be considered the weakest link on the field when you consider his overall durability to hard hitting strikes, that have easily in the past broke through his defenses. Sure he has great blasting potential, but if the fight is brought up close and personal, he would be forced to chage tactics rather quickly. Krona buster or not. Just saying.

The Sentry would not be permanently laid low by any on the DC side, because if he doesn't want to die he'd just keep coming back like he did several times.

A blood lusted Surfer could resemble Exiles Surfer, and use his board to cut up anyone on the field. So there are arguments that could be debated for either side.

Me saying Hulk was a weak link didn't have anything to do with his lack of strength, but more to do with his ability to tag guys like OWAW Clark and Majestic + blades. The environment helps Hulk and mitigates this weakness, but even in close quarters he'd have a hell of a time taking those two out. Him being matched up with Hal/Orion/Bladam makes him more valuable to the team, IMO.

Given that Bill by himself managed to do better against B&T Thor than Strange/Surfer/Adam Warlock, I'd say a decoupled version of that same character is above the same version of Thor. I can't see Thor being able to bust Big G's armor like Bill did. Or fare as well against the I'Than army.

You're right about Hal, and you seem to see him the same way I see Surfer (IE, he has to keep his distance in order to be at his most effective).

As you said, good arguments to be made for both sides.

Hal possessed the power to one-shot a Skyfather-level being. Calling him the weakest on the field strikes me as... Strange.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hal possessed the power to one-shot a Skyfather-level being. Calling him the weakest on the field strikes me as... Strange.

Well, skyfather power does not necessarily imply skyfather durability.

I wouldn't say that blast would take out the likes of Odin

Galan, you are basing things off of one showing and not its entirety. Even though Hal was able to do a Krono buster doesn't give him some type of Godly durability...he can not withstand what will be dished out in this battle. Superman as well. Even though he damaged some probes (which was also taken out by Supergirl and Black Lightning, Wonder Woman mother, Aquaman, Wonder Woman herself) doesn't give him insane durability. He was dropped on numerous of occasions during OWAW. Once by a probe output of energy...another by Darkseid pimp slapping him, a probe again, etc... He stopped holding back and took out two probes but we have NOTHING to suggest his durability was increased to the point that he will be able to withstand multiples of attacks from the beings in the Marvel tier.

Wasn't it stated on panel that Black Adam wasn't the strongest on the field when he fought that large team. Also, MM had a pretty decent showing against this version of Adam. His face also got nearly melted off by a dose of heat vision. What if Sentry was to turn it up and pull that attack out that he used against WWH and engulf the field with heat that would more than likely be over what MM used against Black Adam...him surviving would be very slim imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Galan, you are basing things off of one showing and not its entirety. Even though Hal was able to do a Krono buster doesn't give him some type of Godly durability...he can not withstand what will be dished out in this battle. Superman as well. Even though he damaged some probes (which was also taken out by Supergirl and Black Lightning, Wonder Woman mother, Aquaman, Wonder Woman herself) doesn't give him insane durability. He was dropped on numerous of occasions during OWAW. Once by a probe output of energy...another by Darkseid pimp slapping him, a probe again, etc... He stopped holding back and took out two probes but we have NOTHING to suggest his durability was increased to the point that he will be able to withstand multiples of attacks from the beings in the Marvel tier.

Wasn't it stated on panel that Black Adam wasn't the strongest on the field when he fought that large team. Also, MM had a pretty decent showing against this version of Adam. His face also got nearly melted off by a dose of heat vision. What if Sentry was to turn it up and pull that attack out that he used against WWH and engulf the field with heat that would more than likely be over what MM used against Black Adam...him surviving would be very slim imo.

Warned.

Carver is IQ entropy.

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

Sentry withstood a full blown Mjlonir strike from Thor. This doesn't include his matter manipulation ft that the team will have to deal with (let alone fail) and his insane healing abilities. He can take any of the members out.

Then we have Hulk...in this state he is physically the strongest member on the field. Then you made this a contained battle. I can't see many of them withstanding too many punches from this version of Hulk, especially in a contained area where his punches (shockwaves) would more than likely spread and hit other members on the opposing team (and probably his team as well).

Then you have Bill at his Prime...someone who completed something/without any trouble, that the combined might of Galactus Heralds was unable to do. This also doesn't include the fact that he beat Asteroth in this form. The hammer would also be a useful tool against Hal.

B&T Thor took on a group of high end Heralds and stomped them. No one short of Thanos was capable of stopping him and I would put Thanos above anyone on the opposing team.

The major issue I see for team Marvel is Majestic creation blades. He can decapitate anyone on the field with them. Sentry would be the best choice to fight him.

WBH stronger than OWAW Supes? Not convinced. I can definitely see Maj's blades being one heck of a problem. Was never really impressed with WW3 BA. I'm lovin team DC's speed advantage with Supes, Maj, BA anchoring team DC in that department. Especially with OWAW Supes. Add the fact that WBH no matter how powerful he was in that arc can't fly!!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
WBH stronger than OWAW Supes? Not convinced. I can definitely see Maj's blades being one heck of a problem. Was never really impressed with WW3 BA. I'm lovin team DC's speed advantage with Supes, Maj, BA anchoring team DC in that department. Especially with OWAW Supes. Add the fact that WBH no matter how powerful he was in that arc can't fly!!
Hulk wouldn't need to fly, one thunderclap/stomp would spread throughout the field.

Originally posted by Cogito
Well, skyfather power does not necessarily imply skyfather durability.

I wouldn't say that blast would take out the likes of Odin Look at Hal's other feats, aside from just his raw power output-- I can assure you he has some pretty darn good durability feats. Heck, even rookie Lanterns have survived planet-busting+ explosions.

Taking out Odin is questionable, sure. However, Odin is likely more powerful than all of team 2 combined. Personally, I see no problem with Hal one-shotting any of them, given the chance. /shrug

Wait...is this the Supes that pushed War World Galan?

I specifically stated it was not the sun-amped version of Supes. It is the version who finally let loose, and stopped holding back when he fought alongside Doomsday... Essentially a beserker Superman, who had no qualms with killing his opponent(a scan was posted in the OP.)

Originally posted by Galan007
I specifically stated it was not the sun-amped version of Supes. It is the version who finally let loose, and stopped holding back... Essentially a beserker Superman, who had no qualms with killing his opponent(a scan was posted in the OP.)

The Superman in the latter part of the war, that fought alongside DD, right?

^ Correct.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Correct.

Thought so.

Was it actually stated somewhere if Orion was given an amp by the Source? I know he was sent by the Source, but I can't recall an actual on panel proof that states he was amped. Anyways, at the level he was in (ripping open a trans-tier) is pretty damn beastly. I also didn't realize Thor has the PG in this. Provided he stays upright long enough, there's no telling what level he can reach and how much he can draw upon the PG.

Thor doesn't have the power gem here.

Galan...

Since you are well known with Doomsday, which Doomsday was it that was fighting alongside Superman? The last Doomsday we saw before this event was Doomsday Rex IIRC.

Originally posted by carver9
Galan...

Since you are well known with Doomsday, which Doomsday was it that was fighting alongside Superman? The last Doomsday we saw before this event was Doomsday Rex IIRC.

facepalm

Rex didn't show up until AFTER Imperiex zapped him. Which was after OWAW.

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalm

Rex didn't show up until AFTER Imperiex zapped him. Which was after OWAW.

Ok...I'm getting the events mixed up. Which Doomsday was that then?

Originally posted by carver9
Ok...I'm getting the events mixed up. Which Doomsday was that then?

H/P iirc.

DD Rex was the version that Superman finally beat after he realized that DD could experience fear, right?

Originally posted by Harbinger
Thor doesn't have the power gem here.

whups. read that wrong.

Originally posted by -Pr-
H/P iirc.

Ok, that's scene is pretty much proof that Superman is on HP Doomsday level.

Originally posted by Harbinger
DD Rex was the version that Superman finally beat after he realized that DD could experience fear, right?

Yep.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, that's scene is pretty much proof that Superman is on HP Doomsday level.

Yes, Superman without holding anything back is on Doomsday's level. We already knew that Superman in said mindset was a beast, which is why Galan included him among other powaful dudes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Look at Hal's other feats, aside from just his raw power output-- I can assure you he has some pretty darn good durability feats. Heck, even rookie Lanterns have survived planet-busting+ explosions.

Taking out Odin is questionable, sure. However, Odin is likely more powerful than all of team 2 combined. Personally, I see no problem with Hal one-shotting any of them, given the chance. /shrug

I was actually referring to Krona's durability, but the same is definitely true of Hal.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Was it actually stated somewhere if Orion was given an amp by the Source? I know he was sent by the Source, but I can't recall an actual on panel proof that states he was amped. This is why I have always believed he was amped...

When Orion first appeared, Darkseid stated that he struck him with "the power of the Celestial.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13105810/Death_Of_The_New_Gods-08-018.jpg.html

Earlier in the issue, Darkseid referred to the Source Being as the "Celestial one.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13105809/Death_Of_The_New_Gods-08-012.jpg.html
ie. Orion's assault was equivalent to the Source's... That's how I read it, at least. /shrug

And aside from Orion glowing with energy(which definitely isn't normal for him), Superman stated: "All that cosmic power, and it didn't come with a voice?":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13105811/Death_Of_The_New_Gods-08-028.jpg.html

...Not to mention that Orion was leeching Darkseid's omnipotence from him throughout the battle(as the first scan states):
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13105856/Death_Of_The_New_Gods-08-018.jpg.html

So yeah, he was definitely more powerful in some way/shape/form.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok...I'm getting the events mixed up. Which Doomsday was that then? The version of DD that came after H/P and Doomsday Wars, but before Doomsday Rex.

Originally posted by Cogito
I was actually referring to Krona's durability, but the same is definitely true of Hal. Oh, my bad.

While Orion looked impressive in the scans you provided Galan (I'm speaking of his battle with Darkseid BTW). Did that battle appear to threaten one planet let alone multiple planets? If so Superman and the League would have jumped in no matter what Orion said. Just something to think on.

They did jump in at the beginning and got owned.

t marvel

Originally posted by Golgo13
They did jump in at the beginning and got owned. Yup.

When the JLA tried to get involved, Orion swatted them to the side with ease via an energy tornado.

Originally posted by Golgo13
They did jump in at the beginning and got owned.


Would that have really stopped Superman who defeated Darkseid in single combat alone? Some things have to be questioned. Like I asked before, was the threat level that high? If it was the League would have found a way to seperate the two.

The way Orion was powered up? Hell, yeah.

It did stop Superman:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13106010_Countdown2p11.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13106011_Countdown2p12.jpg

Originally posted by Golgo13
The way Orion was powered up? Hell, yeah.

If he was that powerful, why weren't millions billions of lives in danger? I'm just saying that aside from the pretty colors and nice effects, the blast yield of their battle didn't seem to be as potent as it should have. Then again poor writing may have been the reason for that.

It was obvious that Orion was juicing.

It was my understanding that Orion of this thread was not powered up by the Source as he was during the finale of DOTNG. I saw nothing in his battle with Darkseid that led me to believe that he would be able to defeat any of the others on the opposite team. Let's get down to it. Who would Orion likely be drawn to battle on the opposite team? We need to begin pairing off the teams with a suitable foe, or we will never be able to make heads or tails of how well the match will go.

He was powered up by the Source in Galan's scans, so I don't know if he's still using that version. If he is, Orion could take pretty much anyone on team team 2.

Like I've said a few times: this is Orion as he was seen in Countdown-- none of his feats from DotNG are applicable. Furthermore, it was never stated that he was amped by the Source in Countdown, so it's impossible to say otherwise.

Galan you made a monster when you made this one. I mean figuring out who would naturally face off or be drawn to an opponent is a debate in and of itself.

^ By Orion's animalistic/brawling nature, I could see him being drawn to either B&T Thor or Hulk-- as they are very much the same in that regard.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I've said a few times: this is Orion as he was seen in Countdown-- none of his feats from DotNG are applicable. Furthermore, it was never stated that he was amped by the Source in Countdown, so it's impossible to say otherwise.

But didn't you provide scans which point out he was?

I said he may have been. May have been =/= was. I even said that I wasn't sure. :-/

Sentry should have a limit to the number of times he can come back from death.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ By Orion's animalistic/brawling nature, I could see him being drawn to either B&T Thor or Hulk-- as they are very much the same in that regard.


It depends on what heights you rank Darkseid in those scans physically. He is all over the place when it comes to physical might.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Sentry should have a limit to the number of times he can come back from death.


No he shouldn't.

@Galan...

How would you pair them off? Who would you put against the other?

Originally posted by carver9
It depends on what heights you rank Darkseid in those scans physically. He is all over the place when it comes to physical might.

Not really.

I am going with team 1.
If Hal starts with a krona buster, it will severely weaken team 2.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Ok

Team 1 wins then they take turns killing the sentry for the lulz.

But what about Bob's team mates?

Originally posted by Stoic
But what about Bob's team mates? I edited my post because I didn't want to spam this thread. It's awesome, one of the best threads in awhile.

Originally posted by Diesldude
I edited my post because I didn't want to spam this thread. It's awesome, one of the best threads in awhile.

Alright, but can you be absolutely certain how durable to that particular attack on Krona was in terms of his resistance to it? What if a blood lusted a la Exiles Surfer were able to match his output? Could Hal take a hit from his board moving at the speeds above comic book light speeds?

I think that a pairing off should happen here, with probabilities factored in. For example how well would Black Adam do against any one opponent on the opposite team. Could he beat every one of them? Who would beat him, and vice versa, to give a clear victory.

Galan you did it this time bro.

Beta Ray Bill and Thor are able to bfr with Mjlonir as well

Originally posted by Stoic
Galan you did it this time bro.

Lol..

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

How would you pair them off? Who would you put against the other? No clue. I didn't design the thread with that in mind, tbh.

Considering most of team 1 can beat anybody on team 2, this is a foregone conclusion.

stalemate