The God Delusion

This new book, by Richard Dawkins, is a criticism of the basic tenets of all monotheistic faiths. An outspoken athiest and scientist who studies ethics, his books and documentaries have dealt with the pseudosciences within religion to how the world would be better off without religion. In his new book, The God Delusion he makes the claim that God does not exist. He quotes Douglas Adams:

"Religion ... has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, 'Here is an idea or a notion that you're not allowed to say anything bad about; you're just not. Why not? - because you're not. If someone votes for a party that you don't agree with, you're free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved by it. ... But on the other hand, if somebody says 'I mustn't move a light switch on a Saturday', you say 'I respect that.'"

The book is out now

The God Delusion (Wikipedia)

Dawkins is a smart man.

Is he one of the people trying to get "under God" taken from the Pledge of Allegiance?

It should be taken out of the Plege of allegience because it was added as a bastardization of the original text. Under God in 1954 does not equal under god in 1776.

"god" had different meanings, which these assholes seem to have problems understanding.

The original Pledge, written in 1892: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

They changed 'my flag' to 'the flag of the United States of America' in 1924, so immigrants would know which flag they were pledging allegiance to

The addition of 'Under God' was passed by Congress in 1954, and the idea was originally Abraham Lincoln's, but President Eisenhower was convinced to do it, by a minister (surprised?)

I don't really mind the first one, i think we can clarify which flag we are talking about (it is the US pledge of allegience).

The second one bothers me. A LOT.

Athieism needs to chill, I'm not in any way Religious, yet I have no problem with saying it, why do you? Is it somehow hurting you? The Nation was based on Christian Morals and such

Yo. You're also the same guy yo tried to the pull the religious people have more morals one on us.

This nation is NOT based on Christian morals. If it is...name them.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yo. You're also the same guy yo tried to the pull the religious people have more morals one on us.

This nation is NOT based on Christian morals. If it is...name them.

Actually, I did not, you twisted my words in that sense, the only thing I said was that "I prefer people THAT NEED IT to have Religion for Morals" that in no way implies that, but because you're an Athiest, anything mentioning Religion means BADNESS


1.)The Nation, settlers and such, were here for RELIGIOUS Freedom, their own ways of Christianity
2.)The Equality stated in that is based on the Bible's saying all people are Equal

More than this, but those are off the top of my head


I love how no Athiest can ever Answer WHY it's bad, or reasons for getting rid of it

I think it's because you want Religion completely removed from everything, the Athiest Religion hates Religion. But they won't say it, I do not see why you have a problem with it, I'm far from being Religious, yet there COULD be, shutting that away is kinda Illogical

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I love how no Athiest can ever Answer WHY it's bad, or reasons for getting rid of itThis is the reason I agree with:

"Some critics assert that the under God clause seriously weakens the Pledge of Allegiance; they claim that the religious can view the phrase as an out-clause, qualifying their pledge, so that their allegiance is only binding when the nation acts in accordance with their perception of God's will."

Originally posted by Strangelove
This is the reason I agree with:

"Some critics assert that the under God clause seriously weakens the Pledge of Allegiance; they claim that the religious can view the phrase as an out-clause, qualifying their pledge, so that their allegiance is only binding when the nation acts in accordance with their perception of God's will."

Right....


Again I say how it is bad....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Actually, I did not, you twisted my words in that sense, the only thing I said was that "I prefer people THAT NEED IT to have Religion for Morals" that in no way implies that, but because you're an Athiest, anything mentioning Religion means BADNESS
I'm not twisting, you ssaid people who are religous are more moral (except for yourself, of course).


Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
The Nation, settlers and such, were here for RELIGIOUS Freedom, their own ways of Christianity
So, that has nothign to do with the creation of the US govenrmnet. This is a JIA agument.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
The Equality stated in that is based on the Bible's saying all people are Equal Really, since the bible has slavery, mentions how you can sell your daughter, stone homosexuals, and defines a "natural role" for women. Have you even read the bible? Clearly, in its literal sense, it says nothing about equality. If the bible and Christianity were so important....why is the Constitution devoid of the Bible and stock full of enlightenment philosophy?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
More than this, but those are off the top of my head
Thats a short list for such an overwhelming and obvious connection.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I love how no Athiest can ever Answer WHY it's bad, or reasons for getting rid of it
I've answered repeatedly what I see as the problems of religion. Just because you weren't here or didn't take the time to read what I wrote, doesn't mean I didn't say it. This leads us to....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I think it's because you want Religion completely removed from everything, the Athiest Religion hates Religion. But they won't say it, I do not see why you have a problem with it, I'm far from being Religious, yet there COULD be, shutting that away is kinda Illogical

1. There is no Atheist religion. This has been proven over and over again.

2. I don't think religion should be removed form everything. There is sensible religion and there is crap religion. JIA and the kind fall under the crap category. Christian soup kitchens fall under the good category.

You need to realize that we live in a pluralistic society. This soicety needs to take positions that are not exclusive to people. This nation is not "under god" that implies that the US has some sort of supernatural mandate. "In god we trust" is a reference to the deist statement and is in light with the positions held by the founding fathers. "god" was a natural order and it was natural for all men to be created equal. THAT is a differnce, despite the fact that you seem too dull to divide it.

There are many good aspects to religion, but I've seen both directly and indirectly the havoc it can wreck. I've also seen its good side.

In fact, since you have me so figured out, you'd remember my threat that said that we should increase the use of religion government. Remeber that? Oh...thats right. This government needs to re-discover its deist roots and start talking about government as a religion again. I don't support Bush's "god-this" and "god-that," but I do support statements like "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

You're the one who has to figure out his contradictory stance.

You see?

Yet, why not something that we cannot comprehend?.....

what?

Something.

yeah...exactly.

Infact who could really explain quantum to someone in the year 343 bc.??

Could be like this to us.

The point is, who can explain quantum mech today?

well, you could follow atheism thinking that religion is what causes wars; on the other hand, you could be religious because you believe religion gives inner peace, which ever flavor sounds better

rather over-simplified.

i figured simple was the best way to tell kreiger one of the reasons an atheist would choose to be an atheist

kreiger is allegedly an athiest.

it's a small world after all

not small enough

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
1.)The Nation, settlers and such, were here for RELIGIOUS Freedom, their own ways of Christianity

And Australia's founding had links to do with finding a place to put convicts with the loss of the US. Doesn't mean our founding as a nation has criminal codes or anything like it at its heart.

And I would point out that there is a big difference between people founding colonies and a group of colonies federating into a single nation state. Those original colonies were founded by some fleeing religious persecution - that does not in fact equal the nation being founded on Christian values - just colonies that later federated into a single state.



Depends on which part of the Bible you want to take literally. Because depending on which part you have certain groups "chosen" - and even not that part you still have the whole - "There are two groups - those saved and those damned. Everyone is damned till they join the saved group."



And I dare say every moral in the Bible has at some time be replicated or preceded by philosophy on the subject. Why is it automatically Christian values.



I found it funny when certain politicians went on about how "disagreeing with the US is comparable to Anti-Americanism" - to be honest I wouldn't want to have to pledge to something I a. Didn't believe in, b. have problems with, c. goes against what I think is right.



Ok, in the following examples tell me which deities you would also happily pledge allegiance to - I mean it doesn't matter you aren't religious so it should be ok... right?

A. Allah
B. Buddha
C. Vishnu
D. Magna Mater
E. Satan

Would you happily pledge allegiance to them? Would you say "I don't see the problem so here goes "I pledge allegiance to etc etc and Allah"?



Oh, and JIA - we have an Atheist here who has researched Christianity (in fields he is actually qualified) and found it not true! Hmmm. How about we put this Atheist and your "real Atheist" in a debate? Is this Atheist worthy since his stance is based upon years of cold, hard study like your "real atheist."

Or doesn't he count as he has found reason to show his Atheistic stance is justified?

Originally posted by Alliance
kreiger is allegedly an athiest.

No, I'm Agnostic(I guess that best fits me), I believe there Could be, it can be proven upon Death, I believe in a Moraled Life, and I like Religious people, it helps people with problems that can't with other ways

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura



Ok, in the following examples tell me which deities you would also happily pledge allegiance to - I mean it doesn't matter you aren't religious so it should be ok... right?

A. Allah
B. Buddha
C. Vishnu
D. Magna Mater
E. Satan

Would you happily pledge allegiance to them? Would you say "I don't see the problem so here goes "I pledge allegiance to etc etc and Allah"?



Oh, and JIA - we have an Atheist here who has researched Christianity (in fields he is actually qualified) and found it not true! Hmmm. How about we put this Atheist and your "real Atheist" in a debate? Is this Atheist worthy since his stance is based upon years of cold, hard study like your "real atheist."

Or doesn't he count as he has found reason to show his Atheistic stance is justified?

You arn't Pledging Allegiance to any God.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER GOD, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

You arn't Pledging to a God, you are pledging to the United States, One Nation, Under God(under the watchful eye of, blessed by, whatever, any Deity, Spirit, whatever you believe in, blessed the USA, that represents whatever you believe in, Religious Freedom, I'm not bothered by it, I don't get why people are)

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
You arn't Pledging Allegiance to any God.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER GOD, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

You arn't Pledging to a God, you are pledging to the United States, One Nation, Under God(under the watchful eye of, blessed by, whatever, any Deity, Spirit, whatever you believe in, blessed the USA, that represents whatever you believe in, Religious Freedom, I'm not bothered by it, I don't get why people are)

Schematics.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Allah, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Buddha, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Vishnu, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER The Magna Mater, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Satan, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"


All equally acceptable to you or not?

And I don't believe the US, or any nation, is under the watchful eye of anything ever remotely deity like, so I see no reason to add legitimacy to any nation by asociating a God/gods with them.

I love how threads get derailed by religious people

Thanks for trying though, Samura

Originally posted by Strangelove
This new book, by Richard Dawkins, is a criticism of the basic tenets of all monotheistic faiths. An outspoken athiest and scientist ......

Well did you realy think a atheist would write a book saying that God does exist??? He is the one that is delusional.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Schematics.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Allah, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Buddha, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Vishnu, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER The Magna Mater, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, UNDER Satan, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all"


All equally acceptable to you or not?

And I don't believe the US, or any nation, is under the watchful eye of anything ever remotely deity like, so I see no reason to add legitimacy to any nation by asociating a God/gods with them.

The point is. If you want your country to be "watched" by your god...thats great. But it is not the official position.

The US is "ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE."

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
1.)The Nation, settlers and such, were here for RELIGIOUS Freedom, their own ways of Christianity

WRONG

Religious Freedom means you are free from religious persecution. It meant they were free from being punished based on religious law, and that all citizens were free to practice whichever religion they chose.

Great Britain WAS Christian...you think they wanted to separate from thier mother land because they were being persecuted as Christians? Give me a break !

They wanted freedom from religious-based rule. I learned that a LONG ASS TIME AGO in a fkn CATHOLIC SCHOOL !


Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
2.)The Equality stated in that is based on the Bible's saying all people are Equal


The Bible never said "all people are equal"

The original Constitution states "All men are equal" ....at the time this did NOT INCLUDE women or black people. Blacks and Native Americans were not considered "human beings" at that time.

You really don't know your History, do you ?


Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I think it's because you want Religion completely removed from everything, the Athiest Religion hates Religion. But they won't say it, I do not see why you have a problem with it, I'm far from being Religious, yet there COULD be, shutting that away is kinda Illogical


1) Athiesm is NOT a fkn religion ! When will you get that? It is a LACK OF BELEIF in anything supernatural/lack of worship in any diety. IT is NOT a religion itself

2) Not all Athiests hate Religion...on Average, Athiests hate religion as much as Religious people hate Athiesm.

3) There is nothing illogical about removing that clause "under god"...I personally don't care, because it harms me in no way. However, there are people who do not beleive, and do not want to be forced to say "under god" in thier schools.

What would you do if someone forced YOU to say "Under Allah"...or "under Zeus" ....im sure every Christian would be fkn pissed..

Athieism is a Religion in the Sense it's beliefs all Religion is wrong

All Athiests hate Religion, if you don't, you're most likely Agnostic




And again, give me a GOOD reason why it should be removed, when 90% of Non-Religious people, including myself, have no problem with it?

Because you think it empowers God or whatever is not a GOOD reason

Oh and BY THE WAY, you do not even have to say Under God

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Athieism is a Religion in the Sense it's beliefs all Religion is wrong

Religion requires a guidelined philosophy or diety, as well as rituals. Athiesm lacks all three...

Athiesm is not a religion, it is the ANTI THESIS of religion....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
All Athiests hate Religion, if you don't, you're most likely Agnostic

That's like saying "All Black people are gangsta"

You are making a generalization on no factual basis.


Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
And again, give me a GOOD reason why it should be removed, when 90% of Non-Religious people, including myself, have no problem with it?


Because the other 10% do....a minority should NOT be forced to practice the same actions of the majority.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Because you think it empowers God or whatever is not a GOOD reason

I don't beleive in God....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Oh and BY THE WAY, you do not even have to say Under God

In a public setting, like class, Baseball game, Football game, etc. you DO have to say it.

In a formal setting like a job, you also have to say it.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
And again, give me a GOOD reason why it should be removed, when 90% of Non-Religious people, including myself, have no problem with it?Like Urizen said, because the other 10% don't. There's a little thing called Minority Rights, it's one of the principles America was founded on

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Athieism is a Religion in the Sense it's beliefs all Religion is wrong

All Athiests hate Religion, if you don't, you're most likely Agnostic




And again, give me a GOOD reason why it should be removed, when 90% of Non-Religious people, including myself, have no problem with it?

Because you think it empowers God or whatever is not a GOOD reason

Oh and BY THE WAY, you do not even have to say Under God Why is it bad that it is there because it is an idea, and idea or thought can be as deadly as any gun or weapon. It can topple nations and start wars and segregation a population based on an idea or thought is wrong and against what this country was founded on.

religion usually requires a place of worship, which Atheism doesn't have. therefore it's just a belief

The Pledge of Allegiance nonsense I have no problem with. If you're secure in whatever you believe, a few words shouldn't be a threat to you, your life, or those close to you.

But yeah, when you start deconstructing religions to see that they're all based off of one another, and that nearly everything religious is man-made, it's hard finding rational justification for believing in a creator that resembles anything in a monotheistic religion.

That said, not all scientists go the way of the atheist. Many are vaguely agnostic, because they believe in some sort of higher intelligence (even if that intelligence is the universe itself), but not necessarily anything like many of the world's religions.