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That doesnt change the fact that americans could have helped with the war before Pearl Harbor. I'm sure she just never heared of it. I'm sorry but Pearl Harbor is small compared to what happen during the war.
And its not exactly flatering for America either.

Ah and I learner all kinds of stuff. Good and bad.

they unofficially did help though

well yeh with planes they sold and pilots they sent.
But a full out attack.
I dont want to argue this. Its a bad idea.

especially if the server AND most of the members are from the States

lol yeh Wait until Finti reads this thou. Or Ush lol

that will have to wait then

I am canadian, so I am allowed to say this. This happened in the near past. During Opperation War on terrorisom in Afghanistan. Americans came there with the beige desert suit, Candians cam there with the green forest camo suit.... Yeah... Nice green Christmas trees in the middle of the desert.........

Thank go i am a pilot to be........


Peace Is when an army reloads

Future Marina here.....

I never got the difference bettween Marine And Navy.... is there even 1?

I was chillin in Manheim (sp) germany with some homies, and we were kicking it with some of the young pretty local ladies. So anyways, one of my friends being jewish, asks one of the girls "so do you guys learn about the holocaust in school?" much to my dismay. The girl answers him "what is the holocaust?" Much more to my dismay he pushes the question and makes sort of a big deal out of it (FYI this guy had nill social skills). Meanwhile he's kinda ranting and this poor girl is looking confused and nervous.

Now what twists my twizzler is did they know what he was talking about and they were just playing dumb, or did they really not know what the holocaust was. Now these are highschool girls, 16-18 not little kids. One can only wonder...

Ohhh and everyone please don't make a big deal out of this feel free to bash America here and there (but don't get to upset if i get you back ) i just love the history thing and i want to here other countries views on any thing in history. Unfortunately I don't get to do a lot of traveling so I am stuck in southern California where most can care less about history and stuff like that....go surfer bums

okay. thanx Becasue in CAnada it is Dvided into, Sea, Earth and Air. I am in Air.

Most Countries do it that way I would think that you guys would have a special deviations of your army for beach landings and stuff like that. I think the only other country with Marines is Britain ( British Royal Marines kike A**)but i could be wrong

this was three yrs ago. Even if they do call it something different, he explained it as such so that there was no confusion.

ergo vis a vis concordantly...

The United Kindom actually has a very detached view of history.

Because we were ONCE the dominant power in the world and have now fallen from that position history from the UK has very often turned towards the self-abusive- so much so that a lot of effort is now being made to point out some very good reasons why the British Empire was not THAT bad after all. Britian's cynical reputation has been achieved by such self-flagellation. Thet great thing is how we can endlessly mock our own institutions and history yet still take great pride in it all; it is a kind of ambiguous position we have developed.

But basically that means the UK has always been a good centre of relatively objective history- because we are as complimentary AND as critical of ourselves as we are of everyone else.

In fact, teaching of our OWN history in any positive light has become rather difficult- you get letters to thew papers from older people deploring the way that our schoolchildren are no longer encouraged to take pride in ourselves, but as a historian myself I think we have a very healthy approach.

Hum. sad. Great Tradgy, SOOOOOOOO many documentries, yet the ignorence OF THERE OWN COUNTRY remains. It will be a sad day when an ignorent person goes to be President of Germany, Then in press or something is asked, what are your views on the holocust... then he/she says "Wha....?"

Of course, the problem is that not everyone in the UK LISTENS to what they are taught. I like History but it is a traditionally boring subject and I am constantly horrified at the ignorance of those around me- especially anti-US ignorance in history. The US has done enough bad stuff in history- like ALL powerful countries have, including my own- without ignorance making up more of it.

Do remember that 'Holocaust' was a term created in the US some two decades after the event. It is not necessarily a universally recognised term- or even concept. If you are looking for perspective in this thread I felt that should be pointed out- though on no account do I want something like that to be debated in here!

Maybe there was something lost in the translation.

American foreign policy has been a complete disaster for decades, absolutely horrendous after September 11th, stupid ass Bush, but that's another story...

I think every story has many sides, you should research every interpretation and come to your own conclusion.

(Just... in case someone is thinking of doing it... I really think an American foreign policy debate is a bad idea too. Just a pre-emptive strike from me there!)

AUch!! (Rubs nose). Hey... I didn't say... anything.... http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/crutch.gif

Over what?

JRatT12> (Wiggles brow) But do you agree that "war to secure peace" DOES sound kinda... strange?
And now I just have to know: How can you support GW Bush, who's said the war on Iraq was Providence?
(Spies for Ush)

Dont blame Clinton for the terrorist attack on USA they would have happened either way, it was just a question of time. They tried to take down TWTC and more or less failed it in 1993 so a new attack on USA was bound to happen. It was your intelligent surveillance that failed to stop that attack, not the military. You see the bigger and stronger they US military is the more it can push others around and the more resistance to the USA will grow. The action taken by the US and its allies in both Afghanistan and Iraq is like a recruit boost for extremists groups out there, not only Al Quiada but all of them

our historyclasses are very easy...:
they were wrong and we were right

Heheheh...

Again... please, no major debates on foreign policy. I believe Raz made a SPECIFIC ban on political debate.

hmm, we all know what that led to

can't you debate politics some where else or in PM's?

Sorry Omega. I cannot allow it. Can we halt this debate now, please, and return to topic.

(Salutes) Ay ay, sir.
Uhrm... topic... ehrm...

JRatT12> You can PM me your reply if you like.

As to the Russian question: The peasant woman is slightly right. Only so far in that why would we want to support the Russians? At that point in time they were our idealogical enemies. The alliance we created with them was always an uneasy one, not to mention the fact that Stalin was so enamoured with Hitler, that he had to see proof that German soldiers were marching across his borders before he would believe that his good friend Hitler would turn on him. So, the question of why we didn't do more to support the Russians is irrelevent. We don't bolster our enemies more than is a neccessity. It was simply a matter of the greater evil, which in this case was the Nazi regime in Germany. We still had no love for Communist Russia. So, why would we want to support their troops? Besides, we had our own suppply and demand problems here in the states. Rationing was in effect.

As to the matter of the German girls not knowing about the holocaust: They knew what you were talking about. They simply feel embarassment over the issue. I actually had a discussion with a guy from Germany about the issue. he said that they, to this day, made to feel so badly about the issue that many times they simply plead ignorance. There is a degree of culpabitlity that is placed on all Germans (which is unfair) over the holocaust. Not that they didn't know what was going on. Any German at the time knew full well what was happening in these camps. They knew what was going on, and while they either didn't or couldn't fight the issue, it was not the german people that rounded up the jews, gypsies, homosexuals political idealists, etc and put them to death. It was the SS. The strong arm of the Nazi party. It was Hitler and the rest of the Nazi high command.

My family came to america in 1918. We're Swiss and German. I had relatives who stayed behind that became members of the Nazi party and even part of the SS. I've been told all these things since Iwas a child. And while I'm proud of my family, I'm still not to blame for their actions. The people in Germany were caught up in a frenzie of national pride. Much like the Italians and Japanese of the time.

Stalin wasn't ENAMOURED of Hitler! Germany was a far more ideological opponent of the USSR than the US was at the time and Hitler and Stalin both knew war was coming (Hitler wrote extensively about it in Mein Kampf). What he was was TERRIFIED of Hitler- he wasn't ready to fight him yet. And he was in denial about the invasion.

There is actually a contentious point made by Fanastic that I would debate if I didn't think it would turn into a disaster... but nevermind...

history has always been written by the victorius part

indeed, but I think this thread will lead to heated discussons about political topics guys

Fire> Then let's hope that we, as far as it goes, can remain civil. No namescalling, no yelling, no threats. PLEASE!

My signature Voltaire once said:
"I disagree with you. But I will, until death, defend your right to say it."

Nope. Stalin raised his glass to Hitler on the eve of the Russian/German non agression pact. He said something to the effect that Hitlers word, as a German gentleman, was all the assurance he needed. Russia gained a lot of territory from the Nazi conquests in eastern europe. Stalin saw Hitler as his friend and commrade. That, while they may have idealogical differences(yes, that were clearly spelled out in Mein Kampf...but so was the holocaust and many of the other ideals, such as german living space, the master race and so on) they had put them aside because they had a more common goal.

Besides, why would stalin be in denial of someone who had broken a non aggression pact if he expected him to do it or even thought him capable? Even though they had never met in person, Stalin considered Hitler a friend, a like minded individual.

Goes back further than the Middle-Ages, I think! They got a new bad reputation in the Middle Ages for usury.

totally agree with you Omega

Part of the problem with many African countries is the colonial system is still in place in an economic sense. America and several other industrialized countries keep most African nations in debt to keep them powerless and fighting amongst themselves. For most African nations it yields a better profit to export raw materials than to manufacture goods for export. Manufactured goods from African nations are often so highly taxed it is not worth it for them to industrialize, so it keeps many people living day to day because their are no jobs. So when a strong leader comes along and says life will be better if you follow me they end up with rebellion and civil war along tribal lines. Many times the tribal group who held the most power while a colonial state is blamed for current problems and that is where all these military coups and such start. As for Liberia, I had a neighbor who was sent to the US under the political asylum policy because he would have been killed in Liberia. He was forced to join the military there and did very well because the consequences for those who did not succeed were very harsh. After several years he and some of his friends tried to resign from the military because they really wanted to go to university. Several of them were either killed or maimed so they couldn't leave Liberia. He was lucky that his name was known at the American Embassy as someone who would need asylum and he was able to get out.

Why would us discussing history turn into a disaster? We're both civilized human beings. Besides, this is an internet forum...that's the point

Sadly, past experience has shown us otherwise. It always turns into a diasater reagrdless of the goodwill of anyone involved. If we ever upon up the debating forum again than fine- but in general, I am afraid not.

The armed forces really has nothing to do with why someone would attack the US. People within the Middle East have had a hatred for America since we created Israel. And the tug-of-war with the Soviets over alliances with Middle Eastern countries has not helped any. America claims to hate dictators, but when the Shah of Iran was overthrown he wasn't any less of a dictator than the Ayatollah or Saddam Hussein. I was not surprised by the bombing of the TWTC. America has been attempting to tell these countries what to do for years. And quite frankly it wouldn't surprise to find out years down the road that 9-11 was allowed to happen. It is not like we were not warned by the first two bombings.

Sadly, I've had the same thought myself....

REALLY want us to move off the 9/11 thing. There has been no time to give it TRUE historical scrutinisation- and this is a thread of history.

off 9-11

opinions about the killing fields in Cambodia in the 80s anyone?

I don't think they teach that much at school, do they?

no, but i was attempting to change from 9-11 as ordered

well we never had much about it, but this was about history right?

why did the egyptians build the pyramids? any thoughts anyone?

This thread is about the way your country teaches history in its schools and your experiences with different country's views on history.

sorry didn't read the first lines
well than I think we get too much westren history and far too few eastern or southern history

but I will have a lot more on this topic once uni starts

too much to read for ya?

imho, there were some moments that the teacher was too pro-belgian while talking about the independence revolution

you mean the opera story?

British history in schools is a bit focussed on specific history eras too, especially 20th century history. We did all the way up to the fall of the Berlin Wall. I remember thinking "Hang on... that happened whilst I was AT this school! And now I am studying it in HISTORY? Like, there isn't anything else left to teach us, or something?"

well i live in the southern united states... history is very watered down. as a matter of fact, in high school, the basketball coach was the history teacher... he knew nothing outside of the books, and the books were sooooo inaccurate and propagandized, if you even got a book. its almost like the school system here in florida dosn't want you to know history, or they just don't care. and we got the brother of the president as gov. he has been cutting back on education...

hehe and history is the most important subject of all

that one too; FM; he forgot to tell us about the money involved etc.

aaah well they want us to be a bit more patriotic

which failed terribly I might add

well I'm a separatist can't help it

you mean flanders-wallonia?

yep
but I'm too much of a socialist to do that to the country and to the wallons

Jrat, you have more than 3 subjects I hope

yep i have more then 3 subjects and they all suck to but im starting Military history soon and that should be good

lol you at high school?

should you care me and yerss are gonna study modern history at uni

that's better FM!

and you forgot about koen

Koeke can go to hell and back for all I care

de koooooooooooeeeeeeeeekeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

well; be nice to him, you perhaps need him one day

highly doubt t

yeah; you have someone else to ...er... "work" with

kat studies ancient histoy not modern, but the first year it's almost exactly the same

the first two if I'm not mistaken... darn it, should ask peter again

(btw, peter is ne assistent bij oude gesch;... dus als ze punte nodig heeft ... )

hehe, I'll keep it in mind
could be yerss dunno

Yeah, I remember. I spend a year in an American High School in Atlanta, Georgia. Had the biggest history book I've ever had. But it had more pictures than my Danish one
(Polish? Oh, a Polish-American?)

We Americans do love are Pictures

indeed we do.....

Yeah I remember my history book from High School too.

I wonder if we ever get the truth about the Dallas shootings in 1963( for those who dont know the JFK murder)

well history books should be field with facts nothing more

I doubt it finti, tho maybe who knows...
bu that makes you wonder about a lot of other thingies too

Such as: Why on Earth should Lee Harvey Oswald kill Kennedy?
JFK had a made a lot of enemies by 1963. I just for the life of me can't fit Oswald among them.

Didnt you see the x files? it was the cigarrette smooking man!
lol jk

hmm would there really be someone like tha cigarette man?

Maybe it's the topic of new thread: "Your favorite conspiracy theory"??

Kes> I saw Oliver Stones JFK... I know it's a bit too much on the conspiracy stuff. But the House Select Comitee on Assassinations did, in 1978, conclude JFK was killed as a result of a conspiracy... So

Thats what I'm saying! It was him! From the gutter hole!

lol if you have to have a comitee like that
I'd take it as a clear bad sign for your country

Yeah, the Smoking Man killed ALL sorts!

One of our Prime minister died in a plan crash some say he was murdered. Wierd thing is a journalist was doing some check ups on the story and all of a sudden, a married man with a baby,jumped of a bridge, no note, nothing. They just found is car stoped at the bridge.

Arms deals involving Mark Thatcher (British PM Margaret Thatcher's son) were being investigated in 1992 by British journalist Jonathon Moyle, who was found dead in a Chilean hotel having received a lethal injection. The British embassy refused to help local police and even tried to make out that Moyle died from masturbation.

Makes one proud to be British, doesn't it?

that's weird yea, but you can't look for conspiracy after every suicide that sounds a bit fishy

Yeh. But this gut was great. Young, good looking. High on his career. His friends dont understand is wife doesnt understand. Just really fishy.

yea but that happens more often

Actually suicide is kinda rare here. Atleast mediaty suicides.

... I mean, CAN you even die from masturbation?

Sigh... back to the topic, I guess.

LOl I dunno don't wanna find out to say the least

Some people might...

like?

Fire> It was an American committee.
http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/house_select_committee.html
They have some prtety cool stuff on JFK, and MLK.

I know omega, I ment america when I said your country

I... KNEW that... (Tries to look that way). Of... course... I
knew... that .... (coughs).

Where were we?

no idea mate

history is always biased for whatever country it is being taught in. thats why i dont take any of it to seriously, plus it doesnt really directly effect me. all the history i learned was from movies, which are generally the most truthful and honest in their views.

yea probably, well I want to study history here and abroad, dunno which country yet

history can be studied at home, you got library, internet right around you. Thats all you need actually

yea but I think I'd learn a bit more at uni

I hope so

history can be studied by talking to your parents

that would be ancient history

lol

We have a brand new forum for this now! arrow

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
We have a brand new forum for this now! arrow


OH YEAH!

Originally posted by Kes
That doesnt change the fact that americans could have helped with the war before Pearl Harbor.

We did. Ever heard of The Flying Tigers?

well for one i tend to dislike history classes and teachings only because most of the class or teachings tend to focus inadvertenly or not on war and the fine details of it, now there are some sections in most corriculumns that do not focus on war, it just seems to me that too much time is put into the, quite frankly, not as important parts of each countries history.

depending on where you live, history is often hidden or covered-up.
what might be fairly common knowledge in one land, might be
completely unmentioned in another....

why is there little or no mention of the old European nation of Khazaria
in many western history books? they were a major player in Europe
and Asia during the Dark Ages...

In my school they concentrate more on the issues back then then the actual war