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HOW IS IT THAT QUI-GON NEVER DISAPPERED WHEN HE WAS KILLED?

cause it happens in ep2?

I MEAN WHEN OBI WAN WAS KILLED HE JUST DISAPPEARED AS DID YODA BUT QI-GON BODY WAS STILL AROUND AND EVENTUALLY BURNED. THIS GOES FOR VADER BUT I ASSUME THAT THIS IS BECAUSE HE IS HALF MACHINE. SO WHY DIDNT QUI-GONS BODY DISAPPEAR?

Isn't this like an Episode-II topic?

But welcome anyway.

cause this happened to qui gon in ep1, and obi wan disappeared in ep 4, and old anakin did it in ep 6. give it time to evolve.

Must be why Bobdafish posted the same topic in the Episode I, IV-VI forum.

Sorry, this is an Episode 1 topic.

Moving...

And now continue on, thanks queeq!

Yes the question is why DO Obi-Wan and the others in the classic films disppear, not why Qui-Gon doesn't. They are the ones doing the extraordinary thing- Jedi do not, as a rule, disapeear when killed.

I believe he did not disapper because at that moment he wasn't one with the force. Obi-Wan and Yoda allowed themselves do die.

If we take the Movies only count in true canon line then, as a rule, Jedi DO disappear.

Obi Wan Kenobi - Disappeared
Master Yoda - Disappeared
Qui Gon Jinn - Didn't Disappear.

That's 2 to 1 in favour of disappearance.

Also, does disappearance = ghosty appearances? Because Anakin appears as a Force Ghost at the end of ROTJ, yet we didn't see him disappear.

According to the 'Annotated Screenplays' Obi Wans disappearing and keeping his identity in the force after he was struck down by Vader is something that Yoda teaches him and he spends his time (between EIII and IV) in the Tatooine wastelands perfecting the art.

But not strictly canon, at this point. Though probably as close to canon as you'll get right now.

RC, that Vader does not know of either the disappearing or ghost tricks is canonical proof that Jedi do NOT do this as a rule when they die; GL's comments on this that it is something that Yoda and Obi-Wan discover in the next two episodes- very much re-inforce this. The lnik between disappearing and ghist form looks very, very strong to me. Anakin's ability to disappear (and it looks pretty damn certain that he did) is a mystery that will hopefully be explained.

ok just to be a bit difficult then who thaught Anakin this vanishing thing???

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ANIKIN AS VADAR DISAPPEARED. HOW DO WE NO THAT LUKE DIDNT JUST GRAB THE HELMET. I AGREE WITH LANCEWINDU, YODA AND OBI-WAN ALLOWED THEMSELVES TO DISAPPEAR.
P.S. HI ALL IM NEW HERE, FEW ?
WHY IS THERE NOT A SIDE AND BOTTOM SCROLL AND SORRY IF I MISSPELL ALOT TONIGHT, BEEN DRINKING A FEW

Ush, query. How do we know that Vader did not know this?

We don't even know how mandy Jedi Vader killed. As it stands, the answer to that is ONE, that being Obi Wan Kenobi.

Just a thought.

Hey, have you been hanging out with the Bush daughters tonight?

I think that Anikin did not dissapear. But he did turn into a jedi ghost. He had no idea how to do it as seen by his surprise when he killed Obi.

Later (during the pyre?) he changed to the ghost.

My main point is if George meant for Anikin to dissipear we would see it just like with Yoda and Obi. ANd it has been said that this will be explained in EP2

BTW dont worry about posting spelling errors, most of these people missspell words by putting U's where they shouldnt be (IE colours) and they misspell Sabers (sabres) too.

Are you refer to all those immigrants in the USA who forgot how to spell words when they got of the boats.

Anyway, bck to the point. It was never completely explained if vader was surprised or not, though you are right that it appears that he was.

I guess there's an answer in II or III just waiting to jump out on us.

To be honest, we don't know if Anakin "disappeared" in ep6. Perhaps he does as Luke transports his body to Endor on the shuttle. Perhaps he doesn't. We have no concrete proof that Luke is burning the body of his father on the funeral pyre or merely the armour which sustained him. The fact that his "spirit" appears at the end with ob1 and yoda suggest that he did indeed become one with the force, but as for exactly when is unknown. Also, as far as dissappearing Jedi go, it is interesting that in ROTJ Obi, Yoda, and Pop Vader are all in spirit form only as LUKE remembers them. Whereas we the viewers, having seen eps I-III see them in their younger years. Perhaps Lucas is suggesting that these spirit jedi can only be seen in the minds' eye of the believer. I.E. no one other than Luke ever hears or sees obi1s' spirit in the orginial trilogy. It is interesting however that at the end of ROTJ that Leia seems to sense Luke is looking at something, but does not see it...perhaps forshadowing of her potential jedi powers?

well put Insanewookie.

I dont think Leia needed a foreshadow to her skils because she already heard Lukes call on Bespin. She just wasnt powerful enough to 'see' them.

Just noticed this one, stepping back to address:


I don't think Yoda "allowed" himself to die, he dies of old age, he could not have prevented it.

"Strong with the Force am I, but not that strong"

Ok, Vader's surprise as Obi-Wan's disappearance and Obi-Wan's line about him becoming more powerful etc. is pretty much proof that this disappearing/ghost trick is way over Vader's head, and therefore over the had of ALL Jedi as Anakin underwent Jedi training. This whole trick is very exclusive indeed.

Remember, in favour of Anakin disappearing into the Force is the Website, and the comment of Rick McCallum and George Lucas. It is very unlikely that these comments are erroneous.

Meanwhile, the link between this and the ghost trick is very clear (otherwise thry both have to be seperate weird and mysterious things that Obi-Wan and Yodas discover in the next two episodes... FAR more likely that they are linked), and I think that Anakin's appearance at the end of ROTJ is clear proof that Anakin disappeared on the DSII.

As GL has also said, this is something at Obi-Wan and Yoda will discover in the upcoming epsidoes.

It is NOT a standard Jedi trick, it is something unique that these guys do, probably tied up with the whole Prophecy thing, which is probably why Anakin is able to do it despite having no idea; that last bit is a mystery to be uncovered.

I have to take issue with that statement, despite pretty much agreeing on the whole, because Anakin didn't complete his training.

"He was a student of mine before he turned to evil." - implying that Anakin left before his training was incomplete.

"Don't make the same mistake that you father did." - implying that Anakin left before his training was incomplete.

PK, my point being that the disappearing trick could be something learnt at the very end of training, once a Jedi has been proven. You wouldn't want half trained dead Jedi running around the coporeal Force world...

He had at least ten years training, which would almost certainl;y have been enough time to at least have HEARD of it.

All current indications are that this is a unique trick, not a general ability.

Ush, for once we agree.

This will be a day long remembered

Woo-hoo!

I know you are right, but we only have 2/3 of the story right now.

True enough. Queeq still thinks I am way wrong though...

queeq thinks?

remember anakin didnt have a father he was born from the force so when he died he turned back into it as simple as that maybe


maybe the answer lies in the prophacy

and what about the emperor if he was so powerful why didnt he come back as a ghost

ISnt it that the Syth dont know about it, Sorry I know that, that is Expanded universe, but surely the way in A NEw Hope that upon Obi Wans death VAder sort of prodded it seemingly surprised that there was no corpse it must have been something that not all Jedi automatically are either aware of or do. This may be seen reiterated by the fact that You didnt see Qui Gon do the dissappear. Although I suppose we will see in the next film as to whether or not we see the ghost...

Could it be that Jedi only fade and return as 'ghosts' if they have recognised and lived out their destinies? Obi lived out his - to oversee Luke on Tatooine as he grew into adulthood (and possibly to await Leia's message), and Yodi fulfilled his by training the last hope?

Or, perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan were clones? Anyone considered that?

If it had happened historically then Vader would almost certainly be aware of it having been fully Jedi Trained.

Especially with GL's comments saying that it would be 'revealed' in the next two episodes, it is safe to assume that it is a brand new thing that Yoda and Obi-Wan in some way uncover.

Vader wasn't surprised by Obi Wan's disappearance, he was just using his foot to make the cloak look neater on the floor.
Ush, is it your sabre nutter who discusses the relevance of the Jedi's clothes vanishing? I remember reading some complex views on that. My best guess would be along the lines of fulfilling destinies, not casting some sort of 'spell' just prior to death.

I have no idea what sabre nutter makes of that, though no doubt he will have pointed out a continuity error in it somewhere. His site is, sadly, down right now.

Fulfilling destinies is in keeping, but also souns too generic (it would have happened in reocrded history); I wouldn't be surprised if this was somethung far more specific to the current situation; probably invoilving the Prophecy and maybe the MCs, but we are getting into stratospheric speculation there.

Well, I think a good deal of the events in the next two episodes will come about due to Anakin's unnaturally high MC count.
I just thought that GL would go for the fulfilling destinies thing, he has said that a lot of his ideas for Star Wars are about getting out there and doing what you're capable of.

this is phenominal! i haven't been able to check the site out for a while, and when i do, i see the very same topic i last indulged. so alright, this is what is plain to the eye: obi-wan disappears; yoda disappears; anakin's death is inconclusive, but he (or just hi suit) is burned, as is qui-gon's. i think that during the clone wars, we will all be made privy to more jedi deaths, and even if there is nothing overtly discussed in respect to disappearing, some will be witnessed during battles. and since i doubt anyone is conclusively right at this point, it is something we will all be looking forward to, and typing our fingers off about when we get home that night.

It's amazing how many questions are going to be answered just by seeing the Jedi in action.

I know why the Jedi disappear: when the Clone Wars starts there are death Jedi everywhere so there is not enough room to fight; so they disappear to make room for others.

Ho ho!

i like the idea of having to fulfill your destiny, look at the evidence, qui gon fulfilled his and found the chosen one - no ghost so far, ob1 did not fulfill his and still had to train Luke after he died although perhaps he knew this and so hence the ghost trick, if Luke was not fully trained then Yoda still had to train him after the end of rotj (although i could never understand why the ghost of ob1 could not just train him) and i'm not sure why anakin became a ghost, he had fulfilled his destiny and brought balance to the force by making the jedi and sith equal, i.e two sith and yoda and ob1. Perhaps his destiny included keeping Luke from the dark side.

I'm convinced though that each jedi has a destiny to fulfill be it large or small, qui gons was to find the chosen one, ob1's either to train him, or train the new hope and Luke's was to restore the Jedi order which he probably did and anakin did bring balance to the force all be it in a fairly brutish manor, perhaps that is why yoda was reluctant to train anakin, he knew that in order to bring balance to the force the jedi numbers would have to decrease dramatically and he feared the consequences, i.e the empire.

I think you may be a little backwards. Qui-Gon did NOT fulfill his destiny. I think he was destined to train Anakin, and Obi-Wan to train Luke. Who knows, Yoda was 800 years old, he could have fulfilled his 400 years before Luke was even born. Or maybe, he was destined to train the last hope, it just happened to be the Skywalker's.

But again, that's not consistent with something that is about to be discovered in the next couple of films, or something that is so unheard of that Vader has not even been told of it.

If it was just a matter of people fulfilling their destinies then it would be a matter of historical record.

Destiny may still come into it, but it will be something far more unique to this whole situation of the Prophecy and the Chosen One.

By the way, Sand person, your idea of Balance is not right. As has been discussed many times before and confirmed directly by GL, balance is NOT about making the numbers equal. The evil of the Sith is causing imbalance in the Force. You bring the balance back by defeating the Sith. Simple as that.

And this he DOES achieve. The Chosen One certainly did what he was meant to do, the long way around...

Shall I join the ghost debate again, Ush?

how is having an army of jedi and no sith balance, is it not a coincidence that the chosen one brought balnce to the force by killing all but two jedi. for their to be a balance there must be 2 sides of the scales, in this case the good side and the bad side.

No, You are plain wrong, Sand Person, as GL has explained.

You are using the wrong view of balance. This is a view of natural order, it's an Eastern thing. The Light Side of the Force keeps thing in equilibrium, but the evil and selfish Dark Side upsets things and makes it all go wrong.

Anakin removes this evil when he destroys the Sith Master, thus restoring balance.

Leave any other literal notions of balance behind you.

There is no room for debate here; this has actually been specifically explained by the big man himself.

if you're sure then i will let this one rest, just this once

Sorry, I've been trying to find a link to him talking about it, but I can't right now.

To be honest, his use of the word 'Balance' WAS open to mis-interpretation, and I am not surprised there are lots of people who thought he meant it in a good/evil balance type of way.

There are a lot of things he could have made more clear... let's see if he talks more of the Prophecy in the coming films.

GL told about the balance, I thought it was in a Japanese magazine, the following:

You have 2 colors, black and white, when they are blurred there is grey. To bring balance to the Force everything has to be black and white again; no blur; no grey

I've heard woese metaphors...

BTW, here is a depressing quote from Lucas in the Annotated Screenplays:

"One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that."

Hum...

Mind you, I think we can ignore it. He has more recently spoken of how the reason for Qui-Gon's non-disappearance will be exaplined (along with Obi-Wan's 'Strike me down' line), and also that explanation is bog all good for Anakin.

Could somebody explain the 'If you strike me down'-line?
OK, he advised Luke as a ghost but what had made him stronger than everyone else?

I have absolutley no idea what that line means.

But as for the dissapearing thing - The reason Lucas put this in the OT in the first place is because it is part of "the hero's journey". Once the hero has completed his journey he is rewarded spiritualy in some way. It usually means that the hero will have a life of bliss, often in a place with other heroes. This is of course what happens to Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin.

If Lucas is sticking to the heroes journey formula then they are rewarded because they fulfilled there destiny and chose the right path. But this still leaves the questions :

1.Why are Yoda, Ben and Anakin the only ones to dissapear? -
I agree that this probably has to do with the prophecy.
Anakin was created to bring balance. He failed. But he redeemed himself and was rewarded.
Obi-Wan was CHOSEN to train Anakin. As Qui-Gon said "nothing happens by accident" and "the force will guide us". I don't think it's a coincidence that Obi and Qui-Gon were the Jedi to find him. But Obi-Wan failed. He redeemed himself by training Luke.
Yoda also failed because he couldn't foresee Palpatines plans and didn't help Obi-Wan enough. He redeemed himself by taking Luke(Obi-Wans new apprentice) under his wing and that's what he should have done with Anakin.

2. How does Obi-Wan know about it?
Lucas said that in TPM one of the council members already knows about the Sith and that the Jedi are going to die. I think it's Mace Windu who knows and if he knows that much then he'll probably know about the prophecy and everything that goes with it.

Lucas said just after TPM was released that there would be "big bombshell" regarding the force. What could that be?

Nice to have an ally at last.

But many people still fail to agree than Anakin disappears; argue it out with Queeq.

I still think that disappearing and ghost form are directly linked hence Anakin HAD to disappear; that and all the official material that agrees with me

But many people still fail to agree than Anakin disappears

You are right! Annakin disappears and NOT Vader, I told you before: look at the hair that he has as a ghost, it is cleary NOT Vader who has no hair!

Will you stop being hung up on that, Yerssot? It doesn;t matter WHICH facet of that man's personality disappears, it is irrelevant to the current argument.,

If you force me to spell it out...

Some people stil disagree that the man inside Vader's suit disappears.

I don't have an opinion about disappearing, but that wasn't the original intent. The reason Anakin appeared was to show that he had been completely redeemed, and would live on in a "spirit body" in the company of Yoda, OB1, and probably other Jedi. That's just my take on it, though.

That's what I meant by the heroes journey thing. They are all rewarded spiritualy at the end of their journey.

I think that it is VERY clear that there is no-one in the suit: look at the mask; it lays exctually IN the mask and not ON the mask like you can see it in the entire trilogy

No-one in the suit when it burns do you mean, Yerssot? I'll have to check it out.

Yeah, it is difficult for me to explain so I'll try again, queeq if you read this please translate also

If you look at him when he is on the pile, you notice that the mask is almost fallen in the mask, it doesn't lay on the mask.

Wat ik bedoel is dat het masker ingevallen is, het ligt niet OP het masker maar IN het masker

Yeah, I understand, The literla reason for that, of course, is that there actually WAS no-one in the suit when filmed, but I'll happily take it as evidence that Anakin had disappeared...

You agree Ush?? You must be sick!

Anything that helps me fight Queeq on this one...

I'm getting emotional here!!!
The guys at lucasfilm aren't stupid, if there was supposed to be someone IN the suit, they could make a dummy and put it in there, but they didn't; so logically he disappeared

I truely believe that if Lucas had wanted us to believe that he disappeared then we would have seen it.

We saw him at the end, I think that is more than enough

HOw is that relevant to disappearance?

I think that it is obvious that disappearing and being a ghost are connected

That's the whole point, pretty much everyone thinks that. Which is how the problem occurs, it appears that Vader dies on the floor of the hanger, but does not vanish yet he appears as a ghost.

The only one that spontanious vanish is Obi-Wan, Yoda closes his eyes and there is still a few seconds before he vanish. Vader who doesn't understand it, he is surprised when Obi vanished would take a few seconds more to vanish.

Yes, but Obi Wan is pretty much instantly killed where as Yoda slips into death. A fair comparrison can't be made between natural death and dismemberment...

From my point of view they all die a natural death.
The one just goes quicker to the eternal fields than anothern, espesially when one doesn't know how he has to go there

That's a rather unique point of view I would say. What is natural about being cut in half?

I always thought he disappeared BEFORE being cut in half.

And I agree with Yerssot that his ghost appearance was to show you that Anakin DID disappear after all.

What? You mean the shock of realising he was about to die gave him a heart attack???

No, I always thought the disappearing trick was something you did voluntarily.

When Obi One was killed, he disappeared completely, leaving his clothes behind, when Yoda dies, his clothes go with him. When vadar dies, he disappears leaving his vader suit behind(or so we presume) but when we see him he's wearing his Jedi chlothes

I believe that when they die then disappear is because they were one with the force. If they die like Qui-Gon did he was surprised by his impending death. So he couldn't get into synch with the force. Evidence Obi-Wan knew let himself be struck down he knew he was going to lose anyways. Yoda died slowly, he knew he was going to die. Vader knew he was going to die.

Wasn't there lines in the movies about being one with the force?
You disappear when you are going to die and can become one with the force.
Ratcat:
Think! If you are hit by a lightsabre your bodypart that is struck 'falls of" like Evazan in the cantina in ANH.
So if you were hit like OB1 in ANH you would fall in 2, he didn't so he died BEFORE being hit, making it a natural death I think

Yeah guys, I know about the whole force thing. I'm specifically wondering about the clothes. How come Yodas chlothes go with him, but Obi's and Vaders dont?

I don't know that, but may I remind you that it is Vaders ARMOR that doesn't disappear, it wasn't part of Annakin but of Vaders.
For Yoda I don't know, maybe an extension of the trick? Or because his MC-count his higher?

I see no reasons why the ghost forms should be stuck in the clothes they wore when they died; Anakin has his hair back, anyway. That is either the Jedi Robes he wanted to wear or Tatooine gear as a symbol of his home (the two are the same).

could just be a continuity error, i doubt there's a handbook on Jedi dieing and the protcal they have to follow.

Qui-Gon had more than enough time to do the trick if he knew it. He didn't because it is simply NOT what Jedi normally do!

Yes Ush, its a 'new trick' that Qui Gon dosent know.

Obi and Ani left their stuff and I havent seen lately, but I thought Yoda pulled his blanket around him so it could just be a continuity error or he is so powerfull that his robes went with him.

Either way we should find out in May 2002.

EP II: AOTC! (still getting used to it)

ummmm, what he going to disappear naked? did he take his blankie with him?

actually I think Yoda's clothes wer left as wel given they were the same color as the blanket you probably just didnt notice, its just the body that goes and allows the jedi to return, As such it is possible to burn the remnants in vaders case the shell.

As to Qui Gonn it would suggest Ush is right that it is a later trick on the grounds that whilst he didnt have to much time to ponder on his impending death, he did have time to chat about training the boy, so I tend to eblieve Ush on this one...

IF I remember correctly: I saw a few days ago TESB and I was thinking about this recent chain of events. I must admit that it isn't easy to see, but if you look good, you see that his sleeve ALSO disappear.

If you gong to run through semantics I think the whole point is to get the idea of the transformation.

They probably just removed Yoda as a whole so as not to bother fiddeling with diminishing clothes at the same time as the covers...

It is akin to the saber going through Obi wans clothes, OK the sabre never actually hit Obi wan as he disappeared but I'm sure it went through the clothes and you dont see them in rags on the floor...

but you can say then everything isn't so because for the easy they did it that way

WHEN OBI WAN IS STRUCK DOWN BY DARTH VADER HE SAYS "IF YOU STRIKE ME DOWN I WILL BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE" (OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.)

THIS PROVES THAT HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BE STRUCK DOWN SO THAT HE COULD "SPEAK" TO LUKE FROM BEYOND. ALSO, THE FACT THAT VADER GOES OVER TO THE ROBE AN STEPS ON IT SHOWS THAT HE IS NOT AWARE OF THE USE OF THIS FUNCTION BECAUSE HE SEEMS BAFFLED BY WHAT HAS HAPPEN TO OBI WANS BODY. I THINK YODA DID ALLOW HIMSELF TO DIE SO THAT HE TOO COULD GUIDE LUKE FROM BEYOND WITHOUT THE DANGER OF BEING STRUCK DOWN IN THE FLESH.

AFTER THIS HAPPEN, THERE IS TIME FOR THE EMPEROR AND VADER TO LEARN THIS TECHNIQUE BEFORE HE DIES IN E6. THERE IS NEVER PROOF THAT THE EMPEROR ACTUALLY DIES FROM HIS FALL DOWN THE SHAFT.....WHY WOULD THERE BE e7, e8 OR e9'S IF EVIL IS CRUSHED IN e6.

THEREFORE, I THINK THE SPRIRT THING IS TAUGHT TO THE JEDIS WITH THE HIGHEST MIDECLORIAN (SPELLING?) LEVELS. OR CANNOT BE LEARNED BY A JEDI WITH A LOWER MIDECLORIAN LEVEL. OR IS KEPT SECRET TO KEEP EVIL FROM ENTERING THIS SPIRIT FORM.
I THINK IN E3 LUCAS TRIED TO EXPLAIN THIS FUNCTION WHEN PALPETINE TELLS ANIKIN THAT HE KNOWS OF A WAY TO LIVE FOREVER.

ANOTHER QUESTION I HAVE IS WHY DOES PALPETINE AGE SO MUCH BY USING THE ELECTRIC HANDS THING?

WHATS MOST BAFFLING BY THE DEATH OF ALL THE OTHER JEDIS IS THAT FACT THAT THEY WERE KILLED BY BLASTERS. WHY WOULDNT THERE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FORCE HAVE FORESEEN THE BLASTER SHOTS MOMENTS BEFORE THE SHOTS WERE FIRED AND WHY ARE THEIR REFLEXES THEY USED SO FLAWLESSLY BEFORE, NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE THEM BY THESE WEAK ATTACKS.

The Emperor's body died, but he became reborn again in a clone 6 years later.

Palpatine lied to Anakin about living longer and stopping death, in order to seduce him to the Dark.

Palpatine's face is controversial. Canonnically, the lightning is supposed to melt away his features.

Even Jedi can become overwhelmed by too many blaster shots.

you already contradicted yourself:
if jedi with high midichlorians can perform it, then Vader when he was Anakin, would have heard of this trick, no?

And yes, the chances that Palpatine lied about the ability to live forever are high since it was the perfect line to get Anakin to the Dark Side.

btw, could you not post in caps please?

Good Lord, as if this old bugbear needed to be brought up...

We all know the truth on this one now. No, it was never anything to do with destiny, or preparing for death, or any of the other rubbish people came up with; it was indeed a brand new trick, the only difference was that QGJ pioneered it- but not well enough for his body to fade into the Force and appear, only his voice could; he then taught Yoda and Obi-Wan.

QGJ was just the one good enough to do it, that's pretty much the way of it.

if u all saw rots then u would understand