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Hi ppl...been watching LOTR:TTT for awhile...but still confused over why Elrond is leaving along with the rest of the elves?

He said something about their time on middle earth ending...but I thought they were immortal?

Sorry if I sound ignorant...cos I did not read the books...only got hooked onto LOTR due to the movies...

elves are immortal, they do not die of old age

but after spending a few millennia (for some its more for others it's less) on middle earth. They go to the Grey Havens where they take ships to the west towards a land from which none ever return

carbunche read the books, they have so much more cool info

So you are saying that they just felt like leaving? Erm...dun really catch the meaning...yea I know...the books have a lot of info...but its like information overload for me...I've always had a simplistic mind hehe

Hmm...but in the show...it seems like a mass exodus of the elves towards the Grey Havens...

And I do recall Elrond saying that he foresaw that Aragorn is going to die?

Lord Elrond has the gift of forsight don't really know how that works exactly, but I think he can sense the future as it will unfold itself from that moment on, but seeing as the future is always in motion it can change quite fast, anywayz I dunno really

ask Ush or Britt they are the experts

I think the elves are leaving in mass because they feel their time is over, too much trouble in middle earth.

its because, as fire pointed out,they have been in middle earth for a long ,long time. All their great lords from the second age have died, "the blood of Numeror is spent" as Elrond says in the fellowship.so now they have no strenght left-they have fought their battles and its now up to men.so they go to the grey havens to be at peace and let the 3rd age come to an end. i hope that makes sense

hmm I always thought numenor was a human royal bloodline

oh really? we may need to consult an expert lol its just that elrond said it,but he may have been talking about men

numenor were the ancestors of gondor hence human. it is pretty complicated question as to why the elves are leaving middle earth. the way i understand it long ago the elves were called to valinor (where they are all leaving for, home of the gods) most took the voyage and lived with them for ages. well one of the gods stole some jewels that were very precious to the elves (or atleast one of them) plus many elves desired realms of their own such as galadriel. so there was a great exodus back to middle earth to battle the evil powers that be. well back to LOTR those evil powers are about to achieve final victory or the ultimate defeat, so one of the main puposes to the elves being there is about at an end and they are being called back to valinor. basically this is the way i get it. theres a lot more to it, but i have dumbed it down to keep this post from running on forever and i hope that some of the info isnt distorted in the effort,

its cos their times are the times of the rings thats why gandalf has to go to and frodo and bilbo

isnt it?

maybe katie

nice post turin

Honestly, I think the elves were leaving in case the quest failed and Sauron regained the ring. Like pointy eared rats deserting a sinking ship.

no there not abandoning everybody. the movies make it look like they all left during the war of the ring when actually in the books the main host of elves leave once the war is over (elrond, galadriel, legolas, etc...)

indeed, in fact the elves were ready to do their part
they just couldn't handle it on their own and they already proved themselves against sauron 3000 years earlier

true, someone mentioned it earlier but in the books all the realms of the elves were also under assult. its just tolkien focused on mankind.

yea, but they saved the ass of middle earth by forging the last alliance with mankind

you know what i dont get is why people cant come back from valinor or grey havens? (Ive read the first two books last year and saving ROTK for after the movie so it gives me a better picture in the books, not to bright ya know)

they saw that it was mainly the human's war so they won't have a big part in it. plus they don't want to be around when evil takes over do they? and probably the gods won't let them cuz they've already seen too much and spill valinor's secrets to others.

Whoa...thanks alot for the replies guys!

Seems like LOTR has sorta like a rich background/history to it...like the heritage of a culture....

I have learnt so much from you guys!

Carbunclee READ THE BOOKS, ALL OF THEM THERE ARE TONS OF BOOKS ABOU Middle Earth, ALL HAVE INTERESTING FACTS

U see...thing's that i've got examinations ard the corner....so I'm not really interested in starting to read any of the 3 books yet....will start after all my papers are over and done with

then you should start cause they rock

Right, the Elves true time in Middle-Earth ended at the end of Second Age in the big battle we saw at the start of the first film. This was called the Last Alliance- not because man and Elf would never be friend again, but because after that battle the Elves would no longer exist as a true culture on Middle-Earth as the bulk of them would be going west.

It must be remembered that these lands to the West are the true home of MOST of these Elves. Some of them are descended from tjhose who only came back to Middle-Earth in an attempt to fight evil (and got stuck there longer than planned), some are descended from those who never made it out West- but ALWAYS intended to go there. Only a certain line of Elves (known as 'Avari', or 'Refusers') never really had much interest in going.

This long delayed move back west occurred at the start of the Third Age. And it was conceptually important as well- the Third Age is the Age where MAN takes the lead, not Elves. And the Fourth Age to come after the War of the Ring is a modern age, where immortal creatures like the Elves no longer belong.

BUT. Some Elves did stay for the Third Age, of course. Some, like Galadriel, had particualr attachment to their homes. Elrond felt a responsibility for overseeing the fledgling human kingdoms since the disaster of the destruction of Numenor. Cirdan, I think, stayed in the Grey Havens just so he could oversee the transfer of Elves wishing to leave (Elves going west catch a boat from the Havens).

Eavh of these three Elven settlements, then, represents a bastion of the old times, settlements that no evil can touch until Sauron gets his Ring back where the old Elves still live. More importantly, each of these three took charge of one of the Three Elvish Rings. These Rings could not be brought west and SOMEONE, of course, had to look after them. It is on the power of these Rings that the security and power of the Elvish Havens was maintained- though to his credit, Cirdan simply gave his to Gandalf.

Now, when the One Ring is destroyed, that power goes. These last bastions of true Elvish power will fade without that power- and those Elves in them who stayed behind know that their time is finally come after all, and they must go. THIS is why the last of the Elves are making ready to leave at the time of the films.

However, there are a few exceptions. The High Elves (Noldor) may well be going, as will most of the Sindar (Grey Elves- pretty much the 'standard' Elf). However, there is still a Sindar Kingdom in the Mirkwood (of whom Legolas' father is King, who, btw, locked up the Dwarvves and Bilbo in The Hobbit) whose population have no reason to go- Legoloas only goes because he feels the calling of the sea but the rest have no need to. And there are plenty of Avari (most of whom are Silvan, or Wood Elves) around in the scattered forests (and also in the Mirkwood) who have no reason to go either. So there may yet be some remnant of the Elves, even though the suggestion is that the time for immortal beings on Middle-Earth has gone.

BTW, whilst a glimmer of future prediction is indeed a noted ability of powerful Elves (and even some Dunadain, such as Malbeth the Seer and even the father of Boromir and Faramir (didn't do him much good though)), when Elrond 'predicted' that Aragorn was going to die, he was only using his common sense- Aragorn is mortal!

thx for the explaining USH

as I said before ush is an expert on thingies

hey ush, didnt celeborn stay in middle earth? somewhere i though i heard that he stayed in lorien for awhile then moved to rivendale where elronds sons remand, then who knows what. kind of makes no sense to me, hes got this supreme hottie and they are moving to live in a place of bliss and no worries, yet he stays in middle earth. i kind of think of the 4th age as the age that all the remaining races kind of fade out. the elves that are left over, the dwarves, ents, and the hobbits, leaving man the sole inhabiter of M.E.

well

now that we're talking about Galadriel, I think that was a bad call of casting, but that's just me, she should have been way cuter

Wow...great explanation from Ushgarak...I think I got confused by the movie actually....

In the theatrical release of LOTR:TTT..at the battle of helm's deep..it showed reinforcements in the form of elves led by Haldir arriving to aid the humans in the upcoming battle...but in actual fact this did not happen in the book did it? Was the battle of helm's deep in the book was fought by humans alone?

I think this is the part which confused me...cos I was wondering why the elves were talking about leaving and everything and then on the other hand send an army of elves to aid the humans at helm's deep...

no it did indeed not happen in the book

but I really loved the touch

in fact in the book you don't hear of elrond and certainly not Arwen (if I'm correct)

No, in fact, in the book the elves did not come to the aid of Rohan in TTT. Another thing is that Eomer was already at Helm's Deep with Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Theoden and the few hundred men defending the fortress. Gandalf came with a different Rohan Lieutenant called Erkenbrand. Plus, the reinforcements were not on horses, but on foot. That's why it took so long for them to arrive. It was cool though in the movie to see all the horses riding down that steep slope, wasn't it?

The elves did not show up much in the books. In fact, the only elves we are seen to have fought are Legolas and Elrond's twin sons. However, the elves were not just sitting around doing nothing. Lothlorien was under constant attack, so they could not send any aid. Rivendell is but a small area. In fact, it's only the size of a city, so they could not afford to send aid. Keep in mind this is a middle-earth 'city', and not one like New York with 20 kadrillion ppl.

The elves are leaving because they have lingered in Middle earth too long already. They were summoned at the beginning of the First Age, and they have already stayed Two Ages too long, which is at least 6000+ years. As someone mentioned earlier, the Noldor came back to Middle-earth after going to Valinor (The only notable Noldarian elf left is Galadriel, thus why she is much wiser than all other elves. In comparison, she is an entire Age older than Elrond) However, after the deeds of the Men of Numenor in the early Second Age, Valinor was taken away from the circles of Arda (the world). That is why nobody can return from Valinor once they go there. It is also not a simple ship journey across to get there, but only elves are allowed to go since they have been called forth. Gimli got to go because he was best buds with Legolas, and Frodo had to go because he was a ringbearer, and the ring influenced him too much while he had it. Gandalf got to go because he is returning home to be a Maiar again.

I suggest that you all read the Silmarillion to truly gain an understanding of Middle Earth. If you do you will see that Sauron is really not much of a great and terrible enemy just the most terrible during the time period that the Lord of the Rings is set in. If you really want to see truly epic battles you'll find it in the Silmarillion because the Lord of the Rings is really just an epiloge to that story.

There is a common misconception going around that has been bothering me. Many people think that Middle Earth is the name of the entire world of the Lord of the Rings because it is stated many times in the book that Sauron will "Rule all of Middle Earth" but it is actually a part of the world that was orginally settled by the elves that left Valinor.

Some interesting facts for those of you who haven't read the Silmirallion:

1.Gandalfs actual name is Olorin.
2.Saruman's actual name is Curunir meaning man of skill.
3.Sauron was once a servant of an even greater evil Melkor or Morgoth as he was called by the elves.
4.The God of Middle Earth is Eru or Illuvatar. he created the Ainur including Melkor.
5.The wizards are actually the Istari, created by the Ainur and sent to Middle Earth to help the people defeat Sauron.
6.When Gandalfs returns in the Two Towers it is not clearly explained how. What happened was that when he died the Ainur gave him a new body and sent him back to Middle Earth.
7.Galadriel is Elrond's great aunt and mother-in-law.
8.If you have seen the movie you'll know how massive and powerful a Balrog is. Well just to give you an idea of the scope of the Silmarillion imagine a small army of Balrogs, well that's exactly what Melkor has.
9.For people who have read the LOTR but not the Silmarillion and know about shelob and how old and strong she is imagine her mother (whose name escapes me at the moment) who grew so powerful that Melkor was chased across Middle Earth by her and would have been killed until his Balrog's saved him.

arda i believe would be the correct terminology for the world as a whole. it looks like to me most people in this thread actually have read the silmarillion.

Hegemon875, shelob's mom's name was ungoliant as i recall, to i didnt look it up so thats not a positive thing...

That's right Hegemon875. I have read it =P and Unfinished Tales as well.
Those stories will 'enlighten' ppl and will show the bigger picture of the world. Each Age scales down in terms of heroism, power, and battles. Just think about the fifth great battle of the First Age, aka the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. It had, on the side of good:
1. Tens of thousands of Elves: all the Noldor that had returned to Middle Earth led by their princes.
2. Men: Had just started coming into their own in Beleriand and were allied with the elves.
3. Dwarves, although their numbers were limited compared to the elves.

On the side of evil, there were WAY more enemies than in lotr:
1. hundreds of thousands of orcs.
2. Evil men, and some were even originally allies of the elves, but turned on them once the battle got under way.
3. HUNDREDS of Balrogs, led by Gothmog the most powerful
4. Finally, big ugly Dragons, lead by the first Dragon Glaurung.

posted by aragorn1: "you know what i dont get is why people cant come back from valinor or grey havens?"

yeah the valar (gods) decreed the island of valinor (not the grey havens, which is the coastland in middle earth that leads to valinor)sealed off from anyone but the elves, cus o some dude who tried or did go there and wasnt sposed to in the early ages (don member his name or much ab the story)

gimli got to go not cus he was legolas's buddy, but cus galadriel put in a good word for him, since they got a (prolly unrequited-type)romance thingy goin awwwn..

also, since u b talkin ab the istari (the 5 wizards) and balrogs and sauron, just thought id mention those are all maiar, or angelic type beings that are right below the valar gods. the balrogs and sauron happen to be melkors corrupted servants, and the istari and some other ones mentioned as early deities to the people of middle earth are on the side of good. sauron was the strongest maiar, and knowing all this stuff also makes the fight between gandalf and the balrog all that more fascinating.

ugthebarbarian, nice post. i agree i love that battle, i had actually read though that the number of balrogs was always changing for tolkien, but that i believe he decided apon there only ever being about a dozen or so. i will try and find where i got that and let you know!

okie

wow...i think i just spent 30 min. reading all of that!! oh well...i didn't know that the aid that was sent was on foot..i thought they had horses, but it took so long to get there because they were a LONG way away. i've all three LotR books..and i want to read the hobbit, and i've heard of the silmarillion..but never got around to reading it! but thanks for informing me! some of the stuff in these movies/books are confusing just from the point of it gets into details i don't understand. and then to go along with that, the movies aren't consistant and don't explain enough, like the books. although, i don't mind staring at orlando bloom for 3 hours at a time!!

ya i am pretty sure erkbrand and his men were on horse when they came to the aid of theoden at helms deep, i will try and remember to look it up tonight.

I could be wrong about the on foot thing with Erkenbrand. But i do know it was Erkenbrand that came, and he had a red shield and was described as being a man much taller than all the others. So i think they were on foot. I dun have my books with me at college, but someone should check that.

Ok, we are getting a lot of 'superior attitude' posting by those who have read Unfinished Tales and ther Silmarillion- I think that can be toned down.

Especially by those who take them as totally factual. They are NOT. Christopher Tolkien specifies that they are Unfinished works (hence the name of the second one, yes?) and are only guidelines, not facts. Tolkien never intended them for publication and they were always in flux.

The Balrog number is a point in fact- a poster confidently asserts there were 'hundreds' of Balrogs. Incorrect- Turin wisely doubts it. Christopher Tolkien clearly states- factually and unequivocally- that his father decided on a final number of SEVEN. So before you start reeling off facts to people to look informed, people should check their own.

People need to be very, very wary about these things,. Even the Silmarillion is dodgy; and everything else other than the four main books is is almost entirely speculative.

wow, kind of a little harsh, but true. i dont know if it is a superior attitude just everybody is pretty confident in what they know. many things that people take as fact arent, due to as ush put it the constant state of flux all of it was in. basically the best way to approach this stuff is reader be wear, there are a lot of people that know there stuff here, but the best way is to find out on your own and supliment it with peoples knowledge in here. thats my opinion anyways. heres what i do (to cover my ass) whenever i state something i start off by saying i beleive, unless i have the books sitting right infront of me

they leave becase they want to leave middle earth to go tho the grey havens a world with no greif wnd only elves. they are imortal so they can live their long lives in peace. (pretty darn selfish if ya ask me) but as long as legolas is safe...

lol amen to that tinuvel!

Actually I got several other reasons why...from multiple sources.

First, the book source, I got is that the Elves in the east are seperated from their brethren.

They were not sent east, or such to defeat evil, they went east to defeat evil out of Pride, and Over-confidence.

And they fell, Evil bested them, they thought they won destroying morgoth (malkor?) and Sauron tricked them, binding them and the powers they brought, with the 3 rings to his.

This kinda ties in with my own theory...

I know most say Tolkein had no "allusions" to anything...but I think he did subconciously...bare with me here.

Tolkein was a linguist, he obviously loved language so much he made his own...(elvish), he also loved epic eulogies (death...not so much of people but of time, passing of time...or the passing of one culture to another, such as Beowulf).

So combine the two, and presto ... LotR.

A place where language is dying...and all that went with it is dying as well...

The elves, are dying...not in physical form, or spirit, but in existance in Middle Earth, and everything in middle earth that pertains to them is going with them.

The Ent Treebeard even says this when the two hobbits say they came from "lothlorien" and he says, "Ahh, the names, how they are shortening, I remember when the names were much longer....*he gives the much longer name of lothlorien*" (paraphrased)... contd...

...contd from above...

Anyways, so, the Elves are passing from Middle earth, it is often stated, "They pass to the west". So that is...another part of the euolgy...they die when they go west, die in a sense that is...they don't keel over and go to the grave but they go back from whence they came.

Kinda like man goes back to the earth ...

And so I think tolkein was kinda seeing the world as it is today.

Look at language today, it is by far less of an artform as it was 100 years ago, and especially as it was in the 1600s...

I think tolkein kinda put that subliminally or such into his writings...using the events of Middle Earth to show that.

As Elrond says, "I remember like it were yesterday, the banners as we fought morgoth, in all their splendor...then as we fought sauron, only the banners were not so splendid, and now, all the glory of the west is gone..."

The west came over with the Elves to Middle Earth, and it will return with them...leaving plain old Earth in its place...

Now that's not a truly acurate dipiction as the Silmarillion apparently changes some of those things...but I think that LotR in on its own, gives that feeling...

That with the passage of the elves, Middle Earth passes too...magic leaves, the Dwarves we know die out as a species...or are dying out that is...and when Arwen passes on...winter falls for the first time ever in lothlorien and that is the end of Middle Earth.
Could that be the end of "fantasy and myth" as tolkein sees it? The ultimate euolgy?

its annyoing that elrond slags off the race of men, but it is men who are fighting the war of sauron, he helped in helms deep and thats it, if it wasn't for the men of gondor they would have lost.

elronds ppl are leaving and he is saying how weak men are tut tut

Must be said you have made a couple of errors yourself there, Freemason. I don;t really agree with the allegory either.

Good to have you here, Ush

RIGHT, callyourselves obbsessed and you dont know this. as you know rings were given out 2 3main races in middle earth, well the three rings of the elves, are hidden and it is them that keep rivindell and lorien everlasting, when the 1 ring is destroyed every other ring of power will also pass away, and all they have done will be undone. therfore lorien and rivindell will welt, the leaves will fall and beauty will fade, so the elves are leaving to go to the grey havens!!!!!

understand

Wait hold on why does gandalf have to go too?

i mean passing over from grey havens?

if u dont know then dont ask and ruin it for the next movie.

hold on what? i'm just asking why wizards are supposed to pass over... *raises an eyebrow*

ok. lotsa misunderstandings wit speech, and even more so in limited text communications.

****SPOILERS****
its cus their whole purpose (the 5 istari or wizards) was to defeat sauron. thats what the gods created the 5 for, and thas y after its all over they dont need to stick around.

Not impressive for someone who comes in criticising others... the Grey Havens are one of the Elven Civilisations kept alive only by the power of the Elves that will also fade. It is the Undying Lands the Elves are heading for- they just catch a boat at the Grey Havens. Three Rings- three places.

i think gandalf left because he had done his job.
the wizards are sent to middle for the express purpose of helping man to fight against evil, a.k.a sauron.
but if that were true, was the wizards there during the first war against sauron in the second age? can anyone clarify that for me? when did they come to middle earth?

okay, yea, i thought that he told aragorn or someone that he won't be around for much longer, and i thought that just meant that he was going to die because his job was done... maybe i just need to go back and read the books again..

The Istari came to Middle-Earth in the Thrid Age specifically.

Around 1000 TA I think - sent to fight against Sauron.
But all except for Gandalf failed more or less

I have been reading a lot about the history of this story on different websites. I have not read any of the books yet, but I plan to. I just wanted to add my two cents here. I have seen the extended version of The Two Towers. There were many scenes that moved me. But, this one really got me. The scene where Treebeard is singing to Merry and Pippin while walking through the woods. This is the song he sung to them:

Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves
And the dreams of trees unfold
When the woodland halls are green and cool
And the wind is in the west
Come back to me! (inhales as taking first breath)
Come back to me!
And say my land is best

The words, scenery, music, and the thought that the elves were the ones who woke up the trees but are now leaving, was almost too much to let myself feel.

you should read the silmarillion that will explain everything for you, it can be a hard book to read but well worth it.

this is by far the most informative ive read on the lotr's forum by far..thanks everyone..I learned alot by reading this!

The elves were in Middle Earth to take battle against Sauron.......When Sauron was defeted, there was no purpose for the elves to stick around.

They passed the testimonial to the poor and siily race of men. Thier job in Middle-Earth is done...unfortunatly.

Radagast didn't fail as such, he just got distracted.

And glad you enjoyed it, BKK!

i was kinda dissappointed that there weren't any more elf armies that came to help the humans. I wouldn't think the group they brought to helm's deep was all they had, and what happened to the remaining elves from that fight? or did they all die? screw leaving rivendale, they should just have a backyard boogie in the shire.

NOWEI its boring. Lord of te Rings its book its nat from Middl age
Eh.

ok, it took me a long time to read this stuff, so bear with me if i forget something that soneone has already said.
This is totally off topic, but I have been searching the web with no luck and there seems to be quite a few experts here. Could someone give me some basic facts about the ways of the elves. Not a history lesson, just what they do.

Elves are pwetty........they have everlasting life because of their connection to Valinor.

hey everyone! i think that lord of the rings is sooo cool..but i dont get one thing...what is Valinor? is it the place where frodo, gandalf, bilbo go in the end of LOTR: Return of the king?

It is the harbour where they take off to the Grey Havens. The elves leave because their age is over. The age of men starts with the end of wizards and elves....

No 'tis not the harbour, The Grey Havens is the harbour, Valinor is on another island where the Elves originally came from and it is time where the Elves leave the dying land (Middle-Earth) to go back to Valinor, the Undying Lands. Get my drift?

I always thought it was the other way round dear...Since the word "haven" implies protection, place of rest?....Comes from "Heaven"? But then again maybe that's just me! When Aragorn says "take the Valinor", doesn't that sound like taking some sort of means for traveling? I'd like someone else to prove me wrong on that!

He says 'take the Valinor' ?.......Erm well and Verity.... don't call me dear......that annoys me to all ends of hell.

wow thanks Verity and Kitoky! but i tot that when you are in Valinor u cant go back? so how did u the elfs come back? i also have another question...if legolas is an elf...what is arwen?

Actually Valinor is the original place where the first elves came from. So all the Elves in Middle-Earth go to Valinor because their time in Middle-Earth is over. And Legolas is an Elf, Arwen is also an Elf.

arwen is an elf too... she is elrond's daughter

ok! thanks Kitoky! does anyone know how to speak elvish? i wanna learn..sounds fuN!

I know SOME elvish but not the writings just in Romaji letters.

Instead of re-posting a lot of stuff and claiming credit, I'll refer you to the Encyclopedia of Arda. Here is their entry on Elves, explaining the nature of them, the great journey and a lot more. Very recommended reading.

o teach m SOME elvish! i wanna learn soo bad! what is Romaji letters?

I am trying to learn, but I'm not doing very well. I can write it okay. But speaking is beyond me completely. I took 2 years of spanish in HS and all I can say is Hola.

Hola?

Hola means hello...i dunno if you will know this Aurora but..hola? como estas? can u teach me whateva u know about elvish?! plz

hey FreddieFreeload...what catogery is arwen and legolas in..in this website? thanks

Kitoky> Sorry about the dear thing...(sensitive ) I still don't see proof of the Valinor. Just because the elves came from Valinor, doesn't mean that can't be the name of the harbour or the ship. Grey Havens is different from Valinor. When Gandalf talks to Pippin, he describes the Grey havens, as Pippin asks him. Pippin doesn't ask for a description of the "Valinor".....

They are leaving, because they are bored with our threads and posts about them.

erm.....you kinda lost me there. Valinor is the place where Elves came from and the place where they sail to in the end. The Grey Havens also known as Mithlond, is the place where the ships are. The Grey Havens are part of Middle-Earth and isn't exactly safe from Mordor's evils. Valinor is the only place Mordor/Sauron can't get to.

you can learn elvish through this, it has a completely different set of characters for their alphabet, i can speak it some but writing it down can only be done on paper, i speak dwarven very well though, but the same prob as elvish, different chracters in alphabet, in fact vary different.

if everyone would just read the Silmarillian everything would be very simple to your eyes, they left because there were so few of them, they had been in middle earth for around 10,000 years(some been alive for about 18,000 or more, like galadriel, shes about 26,000 yrs old) they only large portion of elves is the kingdom thats on the edge of mirkwood and they are a small kingdom(Leoglas is prince of that kingdom). they are going back to the "undieing lands" which only elves or select few can get to due to the fact that iluvater changes earth so it was sphereical at the time when numenear was sunk.
let me repeat myself, if get off your lazy asses wacthing the movie over and over, and read silmarillian you wont be a blasphemor anymore. so keep your hole shut till you have read the book then you can ask questions,(then i'll tell you to read the next dozen books that tolkien wrote)

offtop

Really? I just know some dozen words (and some of them Neokhuzdul), can you teach me some more?
Hm I think the writing system(s) is/are quite easy to learn

wait mim cloudwater how did u learn elivsh?

hey exa what is Neokhuzdul?

Neokhuzdul is David Salo's version of Dwarvish. He uses everything Tolkien gives, but that is not much, and he added some new grammar and especially words which fit the type of the language. 'twas used for the film.

Originally posted by mim cloudwater

if everyone would just read the Silmarillian everything would be very simple to your eyes thank you

But it's so much more fun to answer their questions. Although alot of people are die-hard fans of LotR, some don't really have time to read the books or/and are too lazy to pick up the book.

true true they have funny questions there so great, i just read the Silmarillion a couple months ago so ya know i used to ask those questions to so its all good

You got that from the greycompany didn't you?

I got it from my friend. I have no idea where she got it from.

Oh well she probably got it from the grey company site because the ylook awefully familiar.

maybe, you never know.

Ok, this is annoying. I can't post a link. These are diroctions, however, to get to the site:
go to hotelf.com
go to the link on the left that says "learn Elvish"
click on the downloadable lessons, and, well, you know what to do.

Hm,
strange mixture of Sindarin and Quenya and some things that are DEFINITELY NOT Tolkien Elvish. Just look at the last line... or all the phrases that have "Ll" in them... Ll is a very nice sound but does not occur in Tolkien Elvish - he also has no "aa" and no accents in this way "`".

However, sounds nice and thats the main thing.

The point of this, was that the Grey Havens is not Valinor....Two different things! There seems to be a contradiction on your behalf here....but oh well! This exhausts me, so let's drop it!

hey Elenelda! you gave a website thing...it doesnt work...i dunno it asked me wat hotel i wanted to stay in...hehe..thanks!

@Kitoky: the elves didnt originally come from Valinor, but they awoke in eastern middle-earth near later Mordor!

*pounds head on desk* I know this, I was just keeping it simple guys, simple!

Ok simple... sry kitoky

hey pplz this Valinor stuff is confusing me...can someone give me a summery? like a short one..please...i am soo happy i got the ROTK soundtrack yesterday! yeah! and pippins song it sooo cute! does he acctually sing it?

Ok, I'm not an expert on this stuff yet. I hope to be soon, but no promises are made. Please don't kill me for not being perfect.

That sounded kinda more complicated than it should be. Not that I'm complaining....

I'm not really good at summing up stuff that I like and that I cant regard objectively... always gets quite weird.

weird? That's because Tolkien's world is so complicated and when you're explaining one thing it leads to explaining another thing and you just have to drag on

wow thanks exa..ur soo smart! how old are u>? you dont have to anwer that if you dont want to...but somone please teach me how to speak elvish plz!

Erm - 15


Speak Elvish? Do you rather want to learn some practical or cool sentences or really learn the language as a foreign language? And - which elvish? High elvish? The grey-elven tongue (was mostly used in the film)? Something else?

wow do u know all of them? ur soo cooL! umm the grey-elven tongue...is that the one where like everyone (almost everyone) knows how to speak i mena in the movie...like aragorn

All of them? Are you crazy? Tolkien invented about 15 languages for Middle-earth
I just learned some Sindarin and a very very little bit of Quenya, so I doubt that I can really help anybody.

Yes exactly that's it that's grey-elven ...

so can u teaach me the grey- elven thing plzz! what is Sindrin and Quenya? r they languages? if so hu speaks them? which language do u know the best?

Though Elvish is much more cooler and easier to pronounce all angelic.

ya sounds cool....but where do u go for courses? i didtn know that ppl actually like teach it...cool

A course? Most probably you'll only find an online one... but these work quite good... there are actually like elven-schools online where you have some virtual book and get tests every week and so on

People don't actually teach Elvish as a second language, some others post language barrier info online and all that fun stuff about Elvish so but Elvish isn't a official language really.

Ok, SeXyChIcK989, I found out why the site wasn't working. It's hot-elf.com, not hotelf.com. Sorry about the mix-up. If you go to that site, click on "learn elvish", then go to Quenya courses, you can download all you will ever nead. If you have any more problems, just post a reply.

PS: grey-elvish (I think) = Sindurian
High-Elvish = Quenya

Kitoky, Elvish is an official language! It has all sorts of rules for grammer and tenses and everything! But, no, people do not teach it as a second language because no country speaks it as their national language. Wish they did though. It would really help me out. Amin n'rangwa edanea.

hey Elenelda! thanks a lot for the website! it really helps me! but the fonts still kinda wont helpo me!

Check out Ardalambion and scroll down to The tounges of Arda. There you'll find a list of languages, including descriptions, pronounciations and word-lists of different length. They also have a Quenya course, freely downloadable.

Originally posted by Exa
It's SINDARIN, meaning tongue of-the-sindar...

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yikes! everyone here is soooo touchy!

That's what I meant...Elvish isn't an official language people just have to learn it off of sites and stuff.

hey, i din understand y, if all the elves must leave, y din Legolas leave? (not that i wanted him to)

Legolas DID leave, all the elves left, they just didn't show Legolas because it wasn't really important for them to show Legolas leaving.

oh,

Oh. I thought you meant that it wasn't a real language, like one that was fully developed.

Well of course it's fully developped besides, they surely made it work in the LotR movies didn't they?

hey...thanks FreddieFreeload...now can someone help me on where i can learn how to write elvish?! please! thanks

In a boat that he built, right?

I'm not sure but I think so... I jus know it was grey-white.

yes, Legolas built the boat...check out the appendix, right before the family trees (i think) it's in there though

thx
maybe, yes, sbeen quite a while since I read that part of the appendices...

anyone know where i can learn how to write elvish??

Here http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengwar.htm you find everything (you can drop the first paragraph if you just want to learn the writing... it's up to you to try to remember and understand the system


You find the table of the main consonants there, for example; for other consonants, vowels etc see the given link

tahnks a whole bunch exa! u arent email me back!!

havnt had time yet

Hannon lle Exa! I tried to figure it out on my own from the appendix, but it only confused me.

It's quite confusing there, mixing all the modes each line...

(it's just "hannon le", without the second L )