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HELLO ALL..DONT KNOW IF ITS BEEN COVERED..PROBABLY HAS..BUT THE HOMELESS GUY (REVOLUTIONS TRAILER) IS IN A SCENE IN ENTER THE MATRIX. HE SNEAKS UP ON NIOBE AND TELLS HER "LAST TIME ZION LASTED 72 HOURS" AND SHE ASKS WHO HE IS AND HE SAYS "JUST A SPECTATOR"......OH WELL,,IF YOUVE HEARD IT BEFORE,,PARDON

bjn74> hello, and welcome. No need to caps-lock your way through a post, though

Yes, we've noticed it. But I can't remember which thread it´s dicussed in.
¨We weren't able to figure out WHO it is though. What his role is.

i kinda like caps-lock

i think he is what he says he is. Just a spectaor. I'm sure we will figure out what his real purpose is in Revolutions judging from the trailor.

anybody got just the movies from ETM, i've only played it once, and i cant remember it very well...

ETM?

Enter the Matrix

Yeah getting the movies without playing the game would be nice.


*** It saves alot of time. ***

Ya know what I think? I think he's the One from the LAST Matrix... and somehow reinserted himself into the next Matrix. Why else would he know that the last Zion lasted 72 hours?

other than that, he COULD be yet another rogue program...

Or he could be the creator of the Matrix.

look at his wrist he has like 5 watches on ....remember what the Merovingian said If we cant ever take time how can we ever have time?

Which would support him being the creator, seeing as he has time, in a literal sense.

in another thread people were saying that the bum worked for mero and can be seen in the trailer in hel
(his hand and hair) with a gun pointed at him by seraph
somebody theored that he is a timekeeper

yeah, thats what i'm thinking, a rogue program initially designed to control time, which is why he would know how long Zion lasted, and would explain the number of watches (think back to BACK TO THE FUTURE, where Doc was obsessed with time, and had so many clocks), but if the bum-looking guy is the time-keeper, then who is the guy that is led away from Mero right as Neo walks up to him...He's gotta be somebody important, and i thought that he would be the time-keeper, since right after he is lead away Mero is talking about taking time and having time...They're not the same person.

He's not the previous anomaly, because, even considering as many time as Morpheus is wrong, Morpheus would know if the One had not died. And i don't think he's the creator, i believe that Architect is creator, b/c i think the creator of the program would be aloof from the program, not exactly tied into it.

hi bjn welocme

No one has the movies from ETM? I haven't played the game but would love to see the movies

u can find them on the pc folder just without sound. unless anyone knows how to make this work? codec?

I don’t think there ARE any time-keeperes. The bum-looking guy calls himself an “Observer”, so that’s the name I’ll go by. The programs which is being led away at Restaurant 101, I think is just there to show the Mero in a Mafia-Don capacity. I must admit that I think calling said program a Time-keeper based on what the Mero talks about IS over-interpretation. We get to see the Twins, and that is the programs purpose in the storyline.
The Mero talks about ACTION and REACTION, he simply uses the word causality. He is, just like counsellor Harmann, interested in the WHY’s.

There are countless programs that have survived several runs of the matrix. The Mero and Persephone, the Oracle, and The Keymaker, to name a few. The Observer is obviously also a rogue program, that is just… observing.

JediHDM> It’s Niobe who meet The Observer at an underground subway station. Ghost gets out through the exit, and Niobe senses something or someone. “72 hours,” the bum suddenly cackles while coming into view.
“What did you say.”
“72 hours. That’s how long Zion lasted the last time.”
“Who are you?”
“Me? Oh, I’m just an Observer.” More mad cackling and the bum exits the scene.
(Just a note: the actor playing said bum will be seen in the role as Mouth of Sauron in Return of the King in December).

forget the EtM movies. anyone know where i can get reloaded I got two halfs of it, but they skip and unless i put it to the next part of the progression bar, they wont play. and one skips on the fight with neo and the three normal agents thats prolly my second favorite fight, next to the Grand room fight

How has the keymaker survived the Matrixes, if he is killed in each one?

Perhaps the "observer" is a kind of program that keeps tabs on other programs, like Windows explorer lets you observe the programs installed on your computer. ...?

Icon> There are various pirate copies around. But the quality is a mixed blessing. Exactly were to get one, I can’t say.

JediHDM> Why do you think the Keymaker was killed in the previous runs of the Matrix?
I do not think each run is a copy of the former, due to human free will. I don’t think the previous anomalies were Neo-copies either (because then there should also be Trinity copies, love-copies, and the Matrix would NOT have been reloaded – Unless Revolutions REALLY pulls our leg, but then the Architect would’ve been lying.)

We should perhaps first, speaking of the Observer, agree on whether or not he’s a program or a human. The matrix comics (based on Wachoski-bro ideas) shows humans who manage to survive outside in the ruined cities. Maybe some of them even learn how to hack into the Matrix?)

Omega> I'm not sure if we WILL be able to agree, since we know so little of him, however, if it really is "observer" with gun pointed to Seraph, my guess is program, and that he works for the Mero. Also, i don't think Revolutions will be created just to pull our leg, i think that Neo will prevail, even if i don't always believe what Archie says. About the Keymaker, i was assuming that the way to the Source would be the same each time, meaning a Keymaker was needed each time, but it does not mean there was a Trin, a-because Archie says so and b-because each successive Matrix become more corrupted by human emotion the Trin is "the eventuality", the end, but not the successive event. This was an assumption on my part, but a necessary one, since we know nothing of the way the previous Matrix ran, ended, etc. If any of this makes sense, if not, i'll clarify.

I have Reloaded on DVD. Oh its possible., just not great quality

JediHDM> True. We know next to nothing about The Observer. I forgot the picture where he seems to be holding a gun, I need to check that again.

Keymaker: As I saw the “way” to the Source in M2 it is “Oracle, Keymaker, Architect.” But this time there were two new ingredients. The Merovingian and Smith. We can readly agree the Keymaker has been needed each time (The name itself is mythical, so is the path of the One etc etc etc), but he doesn’t need to die. THIS time he dies because of the Smith-virus.
If Smith became a virus in the previous Matrix, thereby a rogue, an exile, why was he an agent at the start of this run of the Matrix?
(Let’s recall: We discuss the survival/death of the Keymaker, because I mentioned him as one of the programs that survive from Matrix run to Matrix run, as an argument for the Observer being an old exile himself. I mentioned other examples, Mero/Persephone, so can we agree The Observer can be an exile? )
I base my “the previous anomalies were nothing LIKE Neo” on the children in the Oracle’s apartment in M1. The other potentials were all younger than Neo.
The Keymaker died because: Neo chose to rescue Morpheus and became the One. Neo tried to delete Smith, which resulted in the creation of an “ego-virus”. I see no reason to assume that this chain of events happened exactly the same way for Neos predecessors.

I agree. someones starting to see what my beliefs are

You don't think Morpheus would be conscious of only the One from HIS Matrix? Or maybe the last One has transcended enough to mask himself for protection.

Clarify Please

Kaliero> Yes, please clarify.

Morpheus would have zero knowledge of previous anomalies. Morpheus, as well as every other rebel save Neo, thinks the war against the machines have lasted only 100 years. They have no knowledge of Neo’s predecessors.

(JEdiHDM> In another thread you discussed whether or not Morpheus knows the prophecy is a lie. What Neo kept from him, was that there has been PREVIOUS Ones.)

Omega> yeah, thank you for clarifying for me, i see i didn't do a very good job.

"We're all here to do, what we're all here to do."

Omega> I agree that it may not have happened the same way, but the potentials have nothing to do with it. The captains, in fact nobody, has any idea that this is not the first matrix, except the the "first" matrix was perfect but disastrous. Plus, only children are saved from the matrix. "I'm sorry, we have a rule, we dont free a mind once it has reached a certain age, it's dangerous, and the mind has trouble letting go. But i did what i did, because i had to." So, just because only children are supposed to be saved, doesn't mean that Neo is different from the other Anomalies; all the other anomalies may or may not have been children. I agree that the "observer", for lack of a better term, is a rogue program. Also, i dont believe that the Mero was a new addition, simply because of "I've survived your predecessors; i will survive you". If each Anomaly had to meet the Mero, then i think that there must've been some reason, giving me the idea that there was a keymaker each time. Also, i don't think the Agents are reused each Matrix; i have no proof from the movies, as of yet, except that Smith doesn't tell Morpheus when he is about to pick Morpheus' brain, except for the first one. It is possible that Smith does know about the others, and he knows that there wasn't a rogue program/virus that is self-replicating "it's happening exactly as before. Well, not exactly". However, i think that, unless, no, i will have to start a new post to go into this. I will leave it at this, and i am starting a new thread. I will call it "Purpose". visit it.

Alright, I'll clarify what I'm trying to say.

Morpheus is of the (6th or 7th, I don't remember) version of the Matrix. What you said, JediHDM, is that Morpheus would know if the previous One had not died. But would it not be plausible, even reasonable, that Morpheus would sense only the One from the same version of the Matrix as he?

My guess is that the homeless guy, the "Spectator," as he calls himself, is the One from the previous Matrix, who saved the last version of Zion (which explains why he knows how long Zion lasted). Then, I think he reinserted himself into the new Matrix, having transcended above the control of the machines enough as to not care which world he was in.

But by necessity, the previous anomaly would not know how long Zion lasted, or even that the previous Zion was destroyed, because his code is taken out and the "prime programming" is reinserted, which, i believe, includes his memory, although he knows he is the one. Also, Morpheus would know if the Previous one had not died, because, he says "When he died, the Oracle prophesied his return would bring the end of the Matrix" (or something...) I'm not saying Morpheus can 'sense' the one, at all. In fact, morpheus is only human which makes that ability impossible.(Yes, neo is human, but he is more, almost the fusion of humanity and the minds of humanity). If he were the previous one, and still knew who and what and everything else, it would make sense that he would tell the rebels the truth, wouldn't it. What idiot wouldn't tell his fellow humans that the prophesy (which speaks of himself) is incorrect?
Really...

I said that the previous One TRANSCENDED ABOVE control by the machines, thus eliminating the idea that anything he does, or is, can be influenced by them. He would know how long Zion lasted simply because he was there.

As for the "death" in the Oracle's prophecy, it is not neccessarily a "physical" death. His transcendance would mean giving up the responsiblities of the One, effectively "killing" the previous anomaly, and leaving the spot open for Neo to fill. This sort of wordplay could be expected from Oracle, at times.

Then his self-reinsertion also makes complete sense. One the one hand, you've got the "real world," where you live underground on a scorched planet, constantly harrassed by squiddies.

On the other hand, you've got the Matrix, a world where you can control what happens around you, and do not have to fear the programs, because of the fact that you are better than them.

In his place, which would you choose?

Um, maybe, i dunno, ZION!!!!
What is it with people saying they would rather choose to live in the Matrix than without. By necessity, the previous Ones would have chosen the Source. Anything else and Zion, and the One are dead. By choosing the source, the previous anomaly would not remember what had happened, because the memory would have been removed. If he had visited the source, but somehow saved his memory, the mcahines would've killed him, because he was TOO MUCH of a threat. Also, the Oracle would not have had to tell the Zionites he had died, because he would've lived there with them. Morpheus would've been told he died by the council, or someone in ZIon, because the previous anomaly was central to their way of life. If he had simply decided to reinsert himself, the council would've known that, and, ultimately, Morpheus and the Neb would not have been cleared for takeoff, because if the One was unstable like that once, what is to say he isn't unstable still; it is still the same person, right? (No, i am not saying that Neo and the Previous version are exactly the same, nor am i stating reincarnation; but to a Zionite, who is told that he will return, hmmm, sounds like it will be the same guy again) The 'Observer' is not a previous One, he is either a time-keeper program gone rogue, or he has some other purpose; fact is, we think he works for Mero. The 'Observer' is not a previous One.

hey is this him again ..havent played that bit on etm for a while..
looks like a subway

sorry this is the pic (from the trailer)

he looks like Trinity with long hair

Korri, that was just wrong, even if you dont like Trinity.
Apologize.

JediHDM> It’s possible that the anomalies were Neo’s age. It is. My point is, that I disagree with the notion, that each run of the Matrix (2.1 to 2.6) is a copy of the former, with “a” Neo, “a” Morpheus, etc.
Programs survive from cycle to cycle. The Mero has knowledge of Neo’s predecessors, for example. And I think so do Smith. He HATES it in the Matrix. He wants to be free. “Hell is” after all “repetition.”
You’re right: the Merovingian did meet Neo’s predecessors. Perhaps the chain of events was even Oracle, Merovingian, Keymaker, Oracle.
When we meet the Oracle in M2, she just tells Neo that she’d been busy trying to find the Keymaker, and now knew where he was. It’s possible that Neo’s predecessors went through the same chain of events. Same chain, not exact copy (If it was en a near-copy the system would know the anomaly would be picked up by a Neo-look-a-like).
Smiths statement “It’s happening exactly as before. Well, not exactly.” Can be interpreted in many ways. I do not see it as proof of a near-copy of each cycle. I took it to mean that The One beat up the agents “as before”, and that Smith used to be one of those.

Aside from the Architect and the Merovingian/Persephone, the Spectator/Observer is the only one we’ve seen this far, who speaks of previous anomalies/Zion destructions. He may be a loose remnant of an anomaly digital self – homeless in more sense than one (How we look in the Matrix IS, to quote Morpheus, a mental projection of our digital selves). But I think he’s something else.
The homeless guy along with the Architect are the only ones who seems to know about happenings both in the real and the virtual worlds. He’s only seen in the Subway and in connection with the LOOP train (which is a loop-subway in Chicago btw).

Im not saying that each was an EXACT replica of the previous, for that is impossible. If i did say it was an EXACT copy, well, i was wrong, so sue me. I agree that Smiths first lines can be interpreted in many different ways, and in fact, i think there are many different interpreteations just here in this forum. Im not exactly sure what the point of this thread was, anymore. Somebody help. oh, yes, the homeless guy. the "Observer", or whatever. I dunno, it seems to me that he has something to do with time, but thats what i thought about the guy at Le Vrai.

Well, have you noticed how many topics have diverged so far from the thread header, that you can’t remember in which thread what is discussed?

I think we were trying to decide if the Observer/Spectator was an exile. Then I listed some programs that I think have survived reloads of the Matrix, e.g. the Keymaker. Then we went on to discussing whether or not the Keymaker died at the end of each run of the Matrix. Which turned to a debate over whether or not each cycle was a copy of the former.
I think…

your guess is as good as mine...

Okay, so if we start here...
Observer=exile
reloads=good
keymaker=not sure if he died every other time, anymore
cycle=not a copy.

Well, have you noticed how many topics have diverged so far from the thread header, that you can’t remember in which thread what is discussed?
Yes, yes i have, and it gets really confusing, although that is the sign of great discussions; they have a mind of their own...

Oh, this is diverging, but it ties in, so im good. How do we know that the Matrix reloads each time? Perhaps, the Matrix continues on down its merry path, oblivious to what is happening in the real world. Perhaps, it is only the Zion construct that changes, therefore, the rogue programs never have to relocate. This idea is easier, just for the reason that, if the Matrix were reloaded each time, then the rogue programs would have to transfer somewhere between Matrixes, and this would allow the Source, agents of the source, etc. to destroy them easier. Well, it makes sense to me, at least...

cain and abel "work for my husband, they do his dirty work. very good, very loyal" "they come from a much older version of the matrix. but like so many back then, they caused more problems than they solved. my husband saved them because theyre notoriously difficult to terminate"

It depends on what we mean by “Reloaded.” I’ve taken the Matrix to reload once every 100 years due to Morpheus’ speech in M2, the prophecy from M1, and Smith and the Architects descriptions of the Matrix
The current Zion has been about for 100 years, so it should be a century since the last anomaly. Smith talks about the Matrix being at “the height of human civilisation”, the Architect about “various grotesqueries.” So I assume the Matrix cycle is the 20th century.
Starting in 1900 and running until December 31st 1999.
If this is the 6th run of the Matrix, or the 6th occurrence of the anomaly, and the Matrix does not reload, then the Matrix goes back to 1400 something. So I think it’s safe to assume the Matrix does indeed reload. Or maybe just parts of it… If the Merovingian is a strong as the Architect, the Mero’s domain could be “immune”?

yeah, i forgot about the fact that the pictures when he was talking about "grotesqueries" had Hitler on them...So, perhaps, yes, certain aspects of the Matrix maybe immune, or the Archie allows the rogue programs to survive (*cough* purpose *cough*).

Welll… Hmmm. I think all the exiles are “doing things they’re not supposed to”, as the Oracles says. They may’ve had a purpose once, but they’re outdated.

I think it is their purpose to stay away from the Source, as they still have something to do, although they need to be free of their original programming in order to complete their purpose. And, although the Oracle tries to help the humans, i think she herself is still controlled, and therefore not everything she says is exactly the truth. I think she may tell as much as she knows, but, like i have said in other places, she is still part of the system of control, therefore does not have as much control as she thinks or may want.

i be sorry

thank you...

that is ok