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If, by Smiths monologue "It is happening exactly as before. Well, not exactly", we assume that Smith knows what has happened in the Previous Matrixes, and there was never another Virus, then the following are true:

*There was never a virus. EVER. No other Agent became rogue, no other anomaly destroyed an agent as did Neo
*Thus, the threat that there would be a catastrophic system crash was nonexistent, meaning carrying no weight. Meaning that if the Anomaly had not chosen the Source, Nothing would have come of it.
*Thus, Neo is the chosen one, the true ONE, while the other anomalies were really just puppets, following a preset guideline.
*Neo is the only ONE meant to stop anything, the one meant to end the cycle.
*Smith was created because it was known that Neo would choose Trinity over humanity.
*Thus, as Smith says "We are still part of this system" (or something to that effect), Neo never really has any choice.
*Meaning that the end was determined before the first Matrix was created, and that there never was choice; "choice is an illusion, between those with power, and those without" the illusion of choice was introduced into the system so people would think that they had control over thier lives, when in reality, they had no control whatsoever.
*Meaning, even the Archie is a slave to the system, not really the creator, but merely a puppet, as are Mero, Pers, Oracle, Seraph, Trin, Morpheus, etc.
*Meaning, Zion must, by necessity, be a program, as the machines cannot control the thoughts of those in Zion, and if they cannot control their thoughts, then the entire thing might be screwed up royally, just because somebody accidentally trips in Zion, and dies, whoops, there goes the entire programming, out the window, as well as all the people that would have been affected by that person.
*Meaning, there is some sick, sadistic twisted person (machine) above it all, watching everything run EXACTLY as it is supposed to. Its like the ultimate movie; not only does it run forever, you can rewind it and watch it again from a different angle.
*Except maybe that person is also part of a program, which is part of a program, etc. etc.

Anyone heard the Philosophy joke(?) that speaks of an old lady whotalks to a philosopher and tells him the earth is sitting on the back of a turtle, and the man tells her she is absurd, and the lady says, "You can't fool me; there's turtles all the way down". Maybe i digress, but, think about it, its very interesting...And, yes, i know, you all hate me for bringing in the ZION IS A PROGRAM theory again, but i had to, and i really didn't start off thinking about that, i just typed as fast as i could, while thoughts were streaming out of my brain

"Cause and effect, my love"

Actually if you read the comics, it was a virus created by "seemingly" the 1st One that caused people to start waking up

which comic is that?

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/cmp/paul_fallmain.html

i dont mean like that kind of virus. I'm talking about the virus that Smith is.

JediHDM> It was just a theory I proposed in another thread, that the Smith-virus is THE cataclysmic system crash mentioned by the Architect. It could, in principle, be something else.
So even if no other anomaly created a virus, there could STILL be a cataclysmic system crash.
I don’t see how your initial assumption can lead to Smith being created on purpose.
Both he and Neo ARE still part of the system, as they are IN the system.

Sifer> What makes you think said comic has anything to do with the first One?

Omega> Just because you proposed it in another thread, doesn't mean i didn't come to this conclusion of my own accord, when i saw it. The only thing we know so far, is that Neo is fighting smith on a road where millions of Smiths are watching. I can see no other cataclysmic system crash. Also, i said they were assumptions, but could possibly be true.

About Smith. I was logically making an assumption that, if Neo is really the first (or only) anomaly designed to choose Matrix over Humanity(which really wasn't the choice), he is the first to understand that Humans and machines need each other to survive. Thus, if he is the first threat, then the programming would cause an antithesis to be created, even better that the anomaly created it. Thus, if smith is created because of the impending threat that Neo poses, Smith's purpose, reason for being, is as antagonist to Neo, opposite, to cause a cataclysmic system crash, that was unnecessary before, since it was predetermined that the previous anomalies would choose the Source, rather than risk the death of Zion and humanity as a whole. And im not sure i understand your point here "Both he and Neo ARE still part of the system, as they are IN the system." .

Just........a hunch

What about "You've already made the choice now you need to understand why you made it." I think that Neo 'killing' Smith thus creating the virus, thus leading to the system crash, thus meaning that Neo would have had the path of the left door already set it was his destiny.

Sorry about all the thus's

Thats exactly what im saying. Except Neo wasn't given the choice to enter the source, he never really had a choice at all. remember the Mero, choice is the illusion between those with power and those without? humans are without power, thus they are made to believe they have choice, to keep them happy.

JediHDM> I don’t agree with your theory. You make some pretty large jumps when alternate paths could just as easily been taken.

If, by Smiths monologue "It is happening exactly as before. Well, not
exactly", we assume that Smith knows what has happened in the
Previous Matrixes, and there was never another Virus, then the
following are true:

I agree Smith knows about the other versions. But why does that mean there was never another Virus (assuming you mean Smith as a Virus). There could have been ones before him that were destroyed by other Neos or when the system was rebooted.

*Thus, the threat that there would be a catastrophic system crash
was nonexistent, meaning carrying no weight. Meaning that if the
Anomaly had not chosen the Source, Nothing would have come of it.

Wrong. The catastrophic system crash has nothing to do with Smith. It is based upon Neo and all humans. Humans are grown and put into the Matrix. 99% of them accept the Matrix and live a normal life. 1% don’t accept the Matrix and either get out or die trying. As the program marches forward in time, more and more people start rejecting the system. It starts to crash. Neo is created (purposely or by accident I don’t know) with a little bit of code in him that will reboot the system. Neo has to make decision try to save Trinity and let humanity die or save humanity. Neo chooses Trinity, not humanity. If anything, Trinity (and his love for her) is what results in the system crash.

None of that has anything to do with Smith.

*Neo is the only ONE meant to stop anything, the one meant to end
the cycle.

I disagree. I think he is not “The One” per the prophecy, but rather “One” as in citizen #1 of the new Zion.

But, if you line up 100 Neos, or “Ones”, and give them the choice of going through door #1 or #2, they are not going to all do the same thing. Some (as in the last 5) chose to save humanity.

*Smith was created because it was known that Neo would choose
Trinity over humanity.

No proof of that. In fact, if that is true, why did he exist in the system for so long before Neo arrived? Because his job is more of being a policeman. Whenever anyone gets out of line, he is there to take them down. Trinity, Morepheus, etc. Right now, Neo is the biggest criminal in his mind.

*Thus, as Smith says "We are still part of this system" (or
something to that effect), Neo never really has any choice.


I think the whole “Choice does not exist” is overrated. Neo has choices. So do all the people in the Matrix. Just because the Oracle or someone else knows what they are going to choose doesn’t mean they don’t have a choice. (i.e. Neo is offered candy. He can take it or not. At this point he has not made a decision. While the Oracle thinks she knows what he is going to do, he still has not made the choice. If she can see the future, and see that he will take the candy, this does not mean he never had a choice, just that his choice was to take the candy.)

I will stop here.

There is cause and effect. Just not to the effect you state in your theory.

This whole triliogy is about Love. Love conquering all. Love saving life and giving life, etc. That is why Trinity was told she will fall in love with the "One" and why they showed the love scene, etc.

Yes, love is a prime force, but i dont think the Wachowskis would have included the whole casuality speech, if it weren't important to the overall plot of the story. We already know that Trin, Morpheus, Ballard, etc have no choice, so what makes it hard to make the next leap and say that Neo doesn't have true choice, either. Also, just because a program has one purpose at one point in the series, doesn't mean that program doesn't fulfill that purpose, to move onto the next purpose. Smiths purpose, after meeting Neo, was to kill him. That done, his purpose was to be killed by the One. When he was killed/destroyed, his purpose became that of death to human species, as he destroys the mind of whomever he takes over. This is his purpose; maybe not his ultimate purpose, as we haven't seen the rest of the movie yet. Smith is the virus, he plague upon humanity, and unless Neo can stop him, Humanity will be destroyed. "Everything that has a beginning, has an end. I see the end coming, i see the darkness spreading. I see death. And you are all that stands in his way. If you cannot stop him tonight, then i fear that tommorrow may never come." Smith is the darkness. I think that the prophecy is true, but it must be utilized in Matrix and Zion, otherwise the prophecy wont come true. And remember, the littlest thing, in the Wachowski's movie, plays a major role.

Well if you combine the Mero's speech WITH Choice then you get what? Well you start to delve into Metaphysics. The notion to be able to shape/change the future based upon the choices you make. Freedom of the Will.

That may be true (i dont know as i haven't studied Meteaphysics yet) but the point is irrelevant, as Mero's speech WITH choice is not Meros speech.

JediHDM> Ah, we spoke past each other.
I still think there is a problem in assuming that the sixth anomaly was created to choose The Matrix over Humanity (or rather, decide to break the cycle). The Architect cannot control the anomaly, or so I read it when I saw the movie. It is one of things in the VR world which is beyond his control (as is the Merovingian).
I may, of course, misunderstand your idea. Let’s say the Oracle somehow realised, that the only way to survive was “together”, way before she even met Neo. If she understood the concept of the anomaly, that a human would, shortly before the Matrix was supposed to be reloaded, collect the code, them she might decide to find someone UNLIKE the previous five Ones.
But did she, the Oracle, choose Trinity? Was Trinity MEANT to fall in love with Neo, or did she do it, because the Oracle told our heroine that she would? The Oracle was the key factor in creating The One in M1. She out-right tells Neo, that he has to choose between Morpheus’ life and his own life. In being willing to sacrifice his own life, and through Trinity’s love Neo becomes the One. He didn’t believe in all this “fate crap” anyways, and that would make him a perfect candidate for the Oracle, for “a” One, who’d break the cycle.
This would still be in line with the One (1) creating the virus (0) as the anti-thesis you speak of. If the One is unusual, the virus will be unusual.
(However, the virus is more like 1/0=infinity than just 0, viz a viz the constantly growing number of Smiths. A computer cannot handle infinity, no matter how big or fast it is, it is still limited. Therein lies the system crash I think).

Neo is still “The One”, the carrier of the anomaly and hence part of the system. Not understood as serving the system, but he is still part of it. And since the Smith-virus is part of the path of the One, which is part of the system, it, too, is still part of the system.

qeeeeee?? alaa bestiaa no entiendo nada maldita seaa!! =(

Omega> i didn't think about 1/0, however, that would only be infinity (for our purposes) if Smith takes over Neo, killing Neo. Also, i don't think it too bad that you don't understand exactly my meaning, because I don't understand exactly my meaning. As i said before, i wrote as i thought, so i can't exactly remember what i was thinking at the time. However, and this was part of the point in writing this forum, people taking a totally random idea, and trying to make it fit, in their mind, allows them to "open the box" for a little moment, allowing a freer range of thinking, ultimately resulting in better theories than before, and helping to dismiss the really off ones. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't".

Also, im probably really behind, but i just realized that the hall where the lights are going off, is the hall that leads to the Oracle, perhaps meaning that the Oracle has been cut off, or is not the Oracle anymore (Smith?).

But I think that it is the essence of Smith. Trying to reach “infinity”. Therefore he HAS to kill Neo. (I don’t really understand myself either on occasions. It happens ).
I’m not discounting your idea. The Oracle is definitely NOT doing what she usually does. She’s in hiding (or so we think, and who IS Seraph – but that’s another thread).

Yep. It seems to be the Oracles hall, and then we see Smith laughing in her kitchen. It does lead one to speculate that Smith either tries to or succeeds in taking over the Oracle (remember: Just before the burly brawl in M2, Seraph comes to fetch the Oracle, telling her “it is time”.). That may give him some insight Smith didn’t possess before, such as where will Neo be at what time.

Yes, if Neo fails, then Smith will take over Neo. However, that requires some Major IFS. I don't know if taking over the Oracle would tell Smith where Neo is, because we don't know if the Oracle knows what happens after the One chooses the left door. I assume that Smith would gains insights, perhaps learn a weakness of Neos (*cough* TRIN *cough*).

Have you realized that we keep talking about the Trinity, and the role of Threes in the movie, when we have created our own trinity; Omega, Sifer, and me. Talk about theory reaching up and biting you on the butt, ya know what im sayin?

JediHDM> Oh! Brilliant idea. The Oracle says in ETM that she can see to the end of the path. (I think). The path ends at the Source. So maybe by taking over the Oracle, Smith learns the one weakness that could bring about Neo’s destruction.
It would be in line with both the W-brorthers and classic storytelling to have events such as The Mero “collecting” Neo, and the arch-villain abducting Trinity.

Oi! And I think I’ve watched too much Matrix

Omega> You can never watch too much matrix; four out of three doctors agree, Watching the Matrix has been shown to increase eyesoreness and fatigue...*where's the pres of sarcasm?*

So..............if Smith keeps copying himself, trying to reach infinity, so to say, him will cause a catastrophic system crash because no system is infinite?

Does this rule out the idea that there may not be a system crash?

When we saw Smith's face on the monitor in the "Real World" in the trailer, do you think we are looking at a system crash OR that there are, simply, so many Smith's that he is taking over the entire system of the Matrix?

These may have already been talked about to death, but I unfortunately am not here often enough to keep up.
Sorry for any inconvenience.

Cheers

Yes, he is the system crash, and no system can handle an infinite number of programs running at the same time. And, yes, we must assume that Archie was correct when he stated that there would be a cataclysmic system crash. yes, we are looking at the beginnings of a system crash, because there are so many smiths.

is was neos face not smiths and this was an m1 trailer

He is indeed one of the factors of the System Crash, but I don't believe that he is a necessity of it. I feel that the System Crash would still inevitably happen without Smith. This being due to the Prime Programming not being reinserted back into the System.

I dont think the prime programming is reinserted into the system, rather, the prime programming being reinserted into NEO, as he has changed the Programming with his run in with Smith, his own mind changes the programming, etc...I think the system crash is inevitable, but i think Smith is being used by it, as a tool, rather than a free will he sees himself as.

JediHDM> Well, if the doctors say so (I just got a very decent pirate DVD copy of Reloaded. Now I can finally see it on a bigger screen, so if I vanish. )

Teunis> Infinity can’t be handled by a computer, simply because it - the computer - is not INFINITE. (It is, btw. one of the arguments against real AI’s. We humans can still use the concept of inifinity, without actually grasping it’s true meaning. A computer would have a hard time doing that).

The Architect:”… The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program…”

Now this can be interpreted in two ways (or possibly more).
It can be as Sifer suggests, that when the anomaly is disseminated inside the Source, the prime program (The Matrix) is reinserted/restarted. If this is not done, the Matrix can’t be reloaded and will crash.
It may also mean (JediHDM’s suggestion), that the anomaly is taken from Neo, and Neos prime program (the man Neo, not Neo as the One) is reinserted into Neo. After that the Matrix is reset by the Architect. The Matrix can’t be reset until Neos prime program has been reinserted. In this scenario the system crash is caused by the virus. It can only be stopped by resetting the Matrix, which requires reinsertion of the prime program into Neo.

The Architect: “Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”

But I think it’s a mix of the two possibilities. By reinserting the prime program into the Source the Matrix is reset, and thereby deletes the virus.