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I hope you all saw tonights Panorama programme on BBC1. If you haven't then I suggest you follow this link and check it out for yourself.

You can view the programme (via RealPlayer) here.

*sigh* I only watched 1/2 of it; it got too painful and depressing. I'll look at the rest later.

The BBC have an update here.

I hope everyone everyone else was able to watch the film. Its a shame none of you want to comment on this subject.

Didn't have time to watch yet, but DSL line goes in on Wednesday so I'll ensure I have a look then.

OK, time top change ANOTHER diaper!!!

Anti Israeli stuff.

Don't be so arrogant finti. Its not a nice attitude.

You should get the full picture before making assumptions.

This is always a difficult subject; both sides can throw a lot of justified accusations at the other. This sort of thing is always just plain unpleasant in the end.

Ah yes, Lebanon. Now that wasn't such a smart move by the Israeli's.

I wonder though, now that Sharon is accused by Belgium for war crimes, shouldn't Arafat receive the same treatment then?

I am not arrogant, it was terrible what happened at Shabra and Shatilla, but Hizzbolla and their accomplished like Hamaz are guilty of just as many killed and molested. So both sides are equally to blame in this religious disput. Bothe the jews and the muslims have extreme groups within that will never accept a cease fire agreement. The only thing they belive in is THEIR cause and "good book" Toran or the Koran scriptures. I dont catch all those documentaries as they always seem to be one sided. I dont find them objectivly neutral enough. Always two sides or more to a conflict. I dont butt in on the problem in the middle east just as I dont butt in on the conflict in Northern Ireland.

I agree finti, it's extremely complex situation down there in the Middle East and indeed most documentaries or articles are one-sided. I personally see no solution over there.

That's sad...I think it's even sadder that we find it acceptable to give up..


Unfortunately..I have to pass on the download.. I really need to get DSL.

I am finding it hard to even bother. I know I should but right now I don't want to worry about an issue that appears to be in someone elses back yard.

Is this bad of me?

Of one thing they have always silently agreed; that there will be no permanent peace, because each agreement is somewhat defective to the other side in some way.

This is what happens when politics and religion are mixed together. It usually spells BOOOM.

I think Hezbollah and all the terrorist groups *should* be tried for war crimes. Just because both sides are commiting crimes against humanity doesn't make the crime neutrel!

This documentery (for all those that actually saw it) isn't concentrating on the middle east process. It was concentrating on what Ariel Sharon did on that day and whether he *could* be tried for war crimes for what he allowed. The documentery WAS balance as it showed opinions from BOTH sides that were there, including IDF soldiers, the Christian militia, Ariel Sharons laywers and advisors and of course the surviving victims.

BTW, the video is for 56k only. But I should have warned you earlier this video is VERY disturbing (shows footage of aftermath), and you will understand what I'm actually talking about once you've watched it.

Oh yes RC, that attitude you are taking is what allowed the holocaust to take place...

I think that is to take it a little far RAZ we cant do something about everything. The holocaust was not that enlighted during those days as problems around the world are today. I am of the attitude that we have to clean up our own backyard before we complain about those next door. In the middle east the problem is most of all Jerusalem and there is no way Israel gonna let that town go. It is the holy city for three large religious groups and I dont think the christian community want it to fall in to the hands of the muslims.

Raz, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think disapproval would have stopped that from taking place. They are motivated people, the fanatics on both sides there, and they do not care what others think.

Any talk of war crims trials for EITHER side would totally and utterly annhilate any slim and slender chance of peace in the region; it would just be plain dumb.

It is effectively a war. Very bad things happen in war. This has to be accpeted. Prevention is better than cure, but the mistake here has already been made.

South Afrcia had the best idea. No trials of the criminals there, just a 'Truth and Reconcilliation' commision. And even that gentle aim was beset by anger and resentment on all sides! If they had attempted full trials there... well, it would be a full scale war there by now. Bad enough as it is.

Meanwhile, regarldess of evidence from bith sides presented, th aim of that documentary was to show that Sharon could be indcited for war crimes. This is not necessarily a bad thing to do, but the documentary was biased towards showing that.


Oooh, just saw Finti's comment; guess we posted at the same time... yes, it was a diferent time when this all started, but on the other hand the principle of international mediation is a very good one! In a perfect world we could clean up our own yards first, but I think histroy is shown that this is a process that will NEVER be finished! So perhaps if we can create a world where we can always be helping clear each other up...

Yeah, ok, totally impractical, especially in the Middle East situation, but it is nice to have laudable aims.

So you're suggesting that since caring about whats happening there won't make a difference, we should ignore it and "clean our own backyards" (whatever that means). Our problems don't end up with dead people.

Ushgarak there IS no chance of peace with whats going on at the moment. They are in deadlock and neither side wants to change the position. The Palestinians started the violence because of the occupation, and Israel (Sharon) says they won't even talk until violence is stopped.

Also theres no chance of war in the Middle East as the Palestinians have no effective weapons to defend themselves with (unless you count stones).

The documentery was biased? Hmm...I think it would be pretty hard to claim that Sharon had no knowledge of what the milita would do if they entered the camps (as the US Convoy said).

Raz, the documentary was biased for the simple reason that they set out to prove something. It's not necessarily a criticism, but using that documentary as a balanced view is an error.

Meanwhile, for people that are unarmed the Palestinians kill enough people! How come you aren't talking about Black September and so forth?

If you think there is no chance of peace now, what will happen if you bring recrimination into it will shock you stupid.

Yes but the findings of the documentery still stand. Even the ex-Judge said he could be indited.

Anyway the chance of him *actually* being indited is *very* small. Although the anger of the Palestinians towards him makes more sense.

I'm sure that they do. But it is still unhelpful.

The Israelis hate Arafat just as much and with just as muich justifcation. Sharon's election was controversial, to be sure, but then so is the whole region.

Of course, we would all like it to just be a case of good guys and bad guys, but in the end it's a huge almost irreocverable mess.

The palistinians have weapons enough, only thing is they seem to aim to the sky when they shoot. They have a lot of explosive they even have their own army, no match for the Israeli army, but then again no Middle east countries would stand a chance against the Israeli army. They kicked some Arab butt before and will not hessitat to do it again given a chance.
A german tv team went to Hebron to see what happened, they didnt bring a camera. When they arrived it was all quiet, an hour later they got a camera on the scene and when the palesinians saw the camera they cherged towards the Israeli soldiers throwing rocks. The Germans got therir story, but it was headlined as "no camera no show". Arafath tried to stop this documentary, but all in vain. You may say this is a one sided documentary showing some bad sides of the Palistinian side.
RAZ what I mean by cleaning up our own backyard is we have enough domestic problems to sort out before we can put an effort into foreign stuff. UN have to be for some reason so this ought to be their task.

As I talked to Raz about earlier, UN intervention is a very, very bad idea for many reasons. Peacekeeping intervention, that is. Keep on the Diplo pressure as much as possible.

Sorry Raz, but I'm sure these people have never been concerned with the problems of Ireland (except to participate n supply of illegal arms maybe). Or the civil unrest of the likes of Bolton, though I appreciate that Bolton and the similar incidents were of a much smaller nature.

I am pretty certain that not one person from the region has thought about the people that died in the Real IRA car bombing a few weeks ago. People in our country, and immediate neighbours, are also dieing.

The issues of the middle east are by no means new, they have been around for many, many years and have roots in history that go too far back.

I thought the civil unrest was in Oldham.

Actually, you are correct. Dunno where I got Bolton from but it just shows what a bad person I am to have gotten that wrong...

OK, must go and start the next genocide I guess.
(That was a little steep Raz!!!)

Adolf RC?

carefull queeq

I recently read all the previous unpleasantness in that area while doing my 'Name that Poster' research...

Nice wasn't it?

Okay, this one's pretty good as well. Israel has decided once again not too retaliate for that assault this week. Even though there is still violence from both sides in that area, Arafat is accusing Israel of manipulating the West by holding on to the cease fire agreement. Looks like a typical damned if you do, damned if you don't situation to me.

queeq, we're not playing the blame game. But to give another side to that story, you must remember that the bombing was done by Hezbollah (sp?), NOT by the Palestinian people on the streets.

If everytime we recieve an IRA bomb, do we bomb Ireland? NO! Because its wrong!

As once Mahatma Gandhi said "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."

HEy, RC's starting the genocide. Not me.

I wasn't blaming anyone. And I agree with you, don't get me wrong. It just strikes me that accusations go back and forth and that there are so many groups the so-called leaders have no control over.
For instance, Palestinians have PLO, Hamas, Jihad and there is also Hezbollah running around free. THe ISraeli's have their army, the extreme right religious groups and the colonists. When colonists harass or shoot Palestinians, Arafat blames the government. When Hamas or Jihad kills Israeli's, Sharon blames Arafat.
There is just no way this situation can be resolved until all parties accept their leaders and their decisions, knowing that these problems concerning Israel have been going on since 1948.... troublesome.


Oh, and your comparison to Ireland is not really accurate. The IRA terrorists are comparable to Hamas or Jihad for sure, but they are not connected to the government of Ireland. That's why bombing would be inappropraiate in any case. Now, if the Irish government would openly support and finance the IRA, I'm sure there would be quite a different situation.

To some one looking in, without much knowledge of the background, it seems to me that you have various factions in each coutry all trying to fight their own little wars and with no central leadership confusion reigns.

That's it actually. This is even besides all the religious aspects. There is central leadership but there are many factions going their own way. Yet the central leadership has to do the negotiations.

I think that when Arafat dies, the shit will hit the fan over there.

In a very big way...

It's kind of interesting really. He's pretty much a control freak and he doesn't allow anyone to become too powerful. So when he dies, I'm sure all the Palestinian organisations will go for the leadership. A vacuum of power.... very dangerous over there.

Those fraction dont care about Arafath now, only thing is the Palistinians may break up into smaller fraction when he dies and he will die soon he looks sick and exhausted.

And thereby extending the confusion further...

Chaos will rule. Trust me, I know.

Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Chaos, Chaos!

Oh, flip, another Queeq follower...

no, RC, I'm confusion.

Lance, my man!

Well, oh gosh, Windy is here, finally. What blew you into these parts of the stratosphere, Lance?

Hmm...I don't like where this topic is headed.

Closing...