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Right guys, some possible spoilers here. Omega wanted me to put it into 1 topic, so I thought I would Firstly, I don't claim this is what is going to happen but it is definately something I believe will happen. I am also not claiming this idea as my own.

If you don't want to possibly ruin you Revolutions experience, then don't read any futher.

Scorched skies? Nah, more like smoked. When shown the history in 2nd Renaissance, we are shown that the Humans scorched the sky to stop the machines from living. But it didn't work. I wonder why? Well let me ask you a question, does it actually show the humans covering the sky above 01 or does it even show a human near 01 in the 2nd Renaissance?

Well the answer is: No, it doesn't.

Now, what if the humans didn't scorch the sky near 01, then that means the machines would still be powered. Now, why the hell would they need to build the Matrix? Why would they even need to keep us alove , err alive?

Well the answer is simple. The machines never wanted to fight the humans, they never wanted all this shit. They wanted to co-exist - this is prominantly shown in 2nd Ren. They only killed the humans because they could not comprehend why they were being slaughtered. So, the machines had no other choice but to create the Matrix because they hadn't found out the answer to the question. The question that drives them - what is love?

That is all for now...I will post some more in a bit - and there is ALOT more to come

i agree with both of them completely. it just proves that humansdont ever like change, you can see this a million times in our history from the american revolution to the great wall of china

The Sky:

Is it scorched? I personally don't think so. It's just another level of control so the machines can achieve what they need. Let's see:

Sometime before minds started getting freed the sky started to recover, the smoke begins to dissapate. The machines can't have that, they need to keep the humans under the illusion that they are using them for batteries. What if the machines re-smoke the sky. Not once, not twice, but 5 times. Every reload, the sky is blackened. True? who knows

exactly...

Wow... that is one of the most stunning revelations I've read these past few months.... so true... :sniff: I feel bad for them machines now....

Hmm. The truth... But is that the truth...

Very nice, this could mean revolutions could be a new beginning instead of an end. Every beginning has an end that has a beginning that has an..

More coming when I wake up properly

Why do you think it didn't work?



Why do you think the machines are driven by that question? Sure, the machines (according to Second Renaissance, which does not HAVE to be the truth, since it’s from the Zion database. It may be another system of control) never wanted any war. They were created as servants. The servants gained independence and rebelled. And the irony is, that the former slaves became masters. And again we’re back at the slaves rebelling.
It’s not a question about love. It’s a question about co-existence. Human needs machines, and machines need humans. “The program Smith has grown beyond your control. You cannot stop him. But I can.”

I never thought that battery crap was true. Although many argue me on it.

I agree that at first the machines didn't want war, and that humans showed no respect for them, however I don't think they are keeping us in the matrix simply because they want to co-exist.

If you think about it, 6 times they have completely flushed the entire population of the matrix (god knows how many millions) as well as eradicated, then rebuilt zion. This is not the act of someone who just wants to get along.

As much as the theory of peace may hold out, the machines ARE using humans for SOMETHING, what however, I don't know.

Keep in mind, from the trailers it is possible that the hovercraft flew above the smoke clowd above. Also, I don't discount the fact that humans could be the catalyst for cold fusion reactions...

Well it didn;t work because they were still there obviously...

2nd:



Think about what you said. Why on earth do you think the machines are keeping under control? I have already said it, they want to co-exist PEACEFULLY. They think there is only one way for it to go - to be accepted as humans. For this they need emotion, they need love.

This brings me to what I was going to post next anyhow. Now, why do you think the machines destroy the Rebels everytime the Matrix is reloaded. Well, they don't care about them. Why? Because they are rebels, they don't care about peace, and that is all the machines are interested in.

"You need human beings to survive"

Delay from the Architect.

"There are levels of survival we are willing to accept."

Well, they need humans in more ways than what we have shown - as I have said, they need emotion.

More ideas about how the machines are attempting to gain knowledge on emotion and love. You will like this one

In my about 10 page paper on the matrix, I originally said that machines were using us as a case study for evolution. Since their minds have finite boundaries and they are concievably incapable of abstract thought, they'd need humans for that.

Like I said I don't rule out the possibility that we truly are batteries.

But regardless, slaughtering millions of humans at whim, and demolishing zion 6 times over, is not an act of peaceful co-existance.

Well, we will see

Remember, we slaughtered them first.

None of this makes sense to me.
There is nothing to suggest the machines want to learn about love.

Why or what says the machines want to co-exist peacefully with man?
They tried, but it did not work. We started the war, they won.

Now that we are hooked into the matrix, what purpose would it serve to keep scorching/smoking the sky? If the machines originally got their energy from the sun, why not let the sky clear up and use the energy. Then they could do away with all the humans and any revolutions.


What reason would the machines have for keeping us alive? It has to be power, computing ability, or something else that can be used as a resource.

Why would they keep us alive? I have told you, they want emotion, they want to feel. But without us, they will never figure out how.

When the original matrix was created, 2 programs were created in order to try and love. Who are these programs? The Merovingian and Persephone. Now, this failed (as we can deduce from what both the Merovingian & Persephone say in Reloaded). So another Matrix was created, using human kinds evil past where all manners of programs appeared (such as werewolves & vampires) - but, the machines realised that love cannot be found through evil. Then along comes the 3rd Matrix (the version we are in now) where the Systemic Anomaly was "created".

Back to Persephone. I propose that when she kisses a human, their love is sampled (in digital form) and that was her purpose - to love. Now (this idea does sway my "Oracle being the mother" notion...just a bit ), Persephone presented this information she had collected, to the Architect. It was then realised that the answer could only be found between 2 humans who truly love each other (ie Persephone's idea was was useful and the data she collected, relevant, but her purpose now obsolete and uneeded so was therefore targeted for deletion.

That is where the Oracle and the Systemic Anomaly come in. It was the idea from Persephone which caused the creation of the systemic anomaly due to the fact that they needed a human combined with the Matrix Prime Program to capture the data they need so they can get what they want. The Oracle created the idea of the Prophecy so the machines could keep the Humans under control, so that their plan wouldn't fail. So all of this control innexorably leads the One to the Source where the information gathered can be inserted back into the Matrix Mainframe and can then be used to gain what they need. With every reload they are getting closer and closer to achieving the answer but have still (up until now) been unsuccsessful:

"While the others experienced this in a more general way" Look of satisfaction on the Architect's face becomes very apparent ", your experience is far more specific: Vis a vis, Love."

Now, where does the child and it's parents fit in. Well they are vital to what the machines really want. It is the first program to be created out of love. It is the first of it's kind to love and BE loved. Why is this essential? Because I think it's the starting point of something special which is going to happen to all 3 "species": Man, Machine & Program.

good idea...

i think that Mouse's speech about Tastee Wheat, is really about love
..he then goes on to talk about the woman in the red dress

To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human...

What was it the machines are searching for again

I don't see anything in the movies that suggest the machines or matrix is trying to figure out what love is. Or how to program it into people.

I do see love conquering all themes (Neo & Trinty dying and coming back to life).

As for the rest, you hypothosis about comments, decisions, roles, meetings and events that we have no knowlegdge of.

I don't agree, but that's the thing with opinions. Everyone has one. And they ain't all the same.

We do know about the events. We know the Oracle created the Prophecy, we also know that a program stumbled upon the answer, we know that Persephone feeds from emotion ie, love when she kisses them. What else do you want me to explain - oh BTW, I haven't finished yet. There is more ideas to come, but I get bored of typing for ages, so that's why I have split it up.

I never said anything about them trying to program it into people, people already CAN love and that is the whole bloody point.

yeah, i agree with sifer over here...

i dont think they can program it into people - tastee wheat

Sifer, i totally agree with everything you have said, good job figuring it all out. I think a lot of things in Reloaded are proof of it. if it isnt right i will be really surprised

Well you see Reloaded was a very good movie ( critics u suck!)! Sifer I totally agree. Let me add something : The machines are using the human bodies as a battery because it is a very effective way to gain energy. Imagine the waste if the machines threw away the dead human bodies (they don't have ethics-it is the same as we throw away the meat we don't eat). The machines will never find out love. They may find the EFFECT but not the CAUSE. They don't have the inpredictabillity of the human race!

Smith does.

Sifer> A communication breech. Let me rephrase: Why do you think the sky isn’t still scorched?

“They think there is only one way for it to go - to be accepted as humans.”

That’s the reasoning of a human. Not a machine. And answering miggfl’s point with ”we will see” is evasive at it’s best.
You’re not proving anything. You’re stating it as fact. Please back up your assumption with something from the movies other than a line from the Archie, which can be interpreted in a million ways.

” When the original matrix was created, 2 programs were created in order to try and love. Who are these programs? The Merovingian and Persephone.”

They could also simply be two programs from the original Matrix, the perfect world (as a machine sees it at least), which managed to avoid deletion.

“So another Matrix was created, using human kinds evil past where all manners of programs appeared.”

And the machines did this, because… ? What kind of AI-logic would use evil to learn about love?

” Look of satisfaction on the Architect's face becomes very apparent.”

That’s certainly open for interpretation. The Architect showed zero (pardon the pun) emotion.

”To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human...”

When the Merovingian realises what Persephone has done in M2, he swears angrily at her, and tells her about her little game. Obviously some programs are aware of, and already use emotions.

Sifer. Are you by any chance a reader of Speak_The_Truth on thelastfreecity.com?

Sounds VERY familiar to what he's been kicking around for the last few days... suspiciously so

nerm: It is what he said - most of it. I said at the beginning of this thread that I don't claim this as my own. Everything just seems to fit.

Also Omega, we WILL see in November. It isn't evasive, it IS fact so stop being patronising and sarcastic. I said at the beginning that I don't claim that this is what WILL happen, but it is something I BELIEVE will happen. Obviously you don't read very well.

You also talk as if you know what it is like to be a machine.

"What kind of AI Logic is that" - Well these are the same AI that are using humans as a battery source...supposedly. The machines know the rebels are so naive that they will believe anything. Would you believe it if you woke up and had never even see this movie...I think you would.

Also the sky being torched, why don't I think it still is. Well 2nd Ren:

Sky when it is scorched is black - mega black - no cracks or breaks in the clouds. If you aint noticed, there is a sun shining through the clouds in the movies. Don't you think the machines would be clever enough to (if 01 skies were covered) build above it? I think so.

I'm sure you're just trying to run it down because you didn't think of it. I certainly didn't think of it but I think it is THE best explanation out of any that I have read here or around the web.


Do they show love - errr, I don't think they do. I said at the beginning, it is all about LOVE - in specific...LOVE. Love is the key and the machines want to feel it. You don't have to believe it, but you're are asking questions and proposing faults that I have already given an explanation for, but obviously you didn't see them.

Sifer> You do not go into debating miggfl’s point. That IS evasive. A tautological truth is certainly not an answer. And stop being so damn paranoid every single time we disagree, and revert to your usual and tiresome names-calling and accusations.

“You also talk as if you know what it is like to be a machine.”

No, I’m using Morpheus’ :”That’s the thinking of a machine.” And what the Ai’s and the machine-world has done up until now.
I still want to know how you think a machine would deduce, that human evil would teach them about human love. And why they (the machines) would want that? There is logican in using humans as batteries if you’re a machine, and it’s the easiest power-source available.

Second Renaissance is an animated movie. So their scorched sky interpretation may be slightly different from the movies, just as the Animatrix Trin doesn’t exactly look like the movie Trin.
Why don’t you think HUMANS build above the clouds? The tallest buildings being built right now have massive engineering challenges to face, mass-distributions, weather, etc. It’s not that easy to JUST build above the skies.

“I'm sure you're just trying to run it down because you didn't think of it.”
(Circus music).

”I said at the beginning, it is all about LOVE - in specific...LOVE. Love is the key and the machines want to feel it.”

But why do you think that? My problem is, that it doesn’t make any sense.

What WOULD make sense to me would be a somewhat different scenario: The machines as the machine-RACE don’t care about love or other human emotions for that matter. Why should they? They see themselves as superior to humans.
But a handful of programs, at some point in time, started wondering if there perhaps was a way to live together peacefully with mankind. But to do so, they’d have to understand humans. THAT is where I think Rama and child AND the Oracle comes into play. A handful of programs, not the machine-world as such.

Again, something I have already given the answer to.



Rubbish. 2nd Ren was written by WB's themselves - we know for a fact that they don't make mistakes like that. Also, easiest power source available? Is it really?

You said in a thread not too long ago that the Machines seem to be into recycling. Why would they bother when they have the sun right up above them? Why would they bother building the Matrix so we can rebel against them and have all the fuss of a reload. Oh, and then they have to grow us, recycle us and maintain us. That isn't what I would call EASY. I would call building some solar powered generators above the clouds - not have to maintain it, and have it be an unlimited power source MUCH easier.



Have you taken a look at how tall the "Power Plants" are? Hrmmm.



Firstly, Morpheus says: That SOUNDS exactly like the machine to me. He doesn't know, he assumes.



Again, have you actually watched 2nd Renaissance properly? Also, I said that they ATTEMPTED to use evil, but realised it cannot be found through it. Why would they want love?

"Man endowed the machines with the very spirit of man"

Would you want no emotions? To be created in the likeness of your parents but they forgot to give you 1 important thing? I doubt you would - Think about it.



Again, watch 2nd Renaissance. You obviously can't take the hint - who was it who tried to make peace not once, but twice? Us? Was it ****. Them? Indeed. Who tried to wipe them out both times? You got it, US.

..look at the top picture of your animatrix dvd cover (sentinel swarm) - look at the sky

i dont remember it being so blue in FFOTO

on my dvd, its really blue compared to this, where its greyer:

Indeed burlyman, indeed...

I will add another thing:

"Your flesh is a relic, a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you."

-BOOM!

LOL

Also, anyone ever notice a certain crashed hovership near the beginning of "Matriculated"?

Speaking of Matriculated:

Woman: "Will it --? Do you think it'll convert"

Scientist: "To convert is it's choice to make"

Woman: "Do you think maybe we ought to reprogram it?"

Scientist: "No, we can't make slaves of them"

Woman: "Because that would be simpler."

Scientist: "We won't beat the machines by making them our slaves. Better to let them join us by choice."

Woman: "Make them believe that the right choice is the one we want them to make."

Scientist: "All right. Yes, machines are tools. They're made to be used. It's their nature"

Woman: "To be slaves"

Scientist: "That's why we can show them a better world, why they convert."

Woman: "But that world we show them isn't real."

Scientist: "It doesn't matter"

Woman: "I'm afraid they'll figure out that we've made the thing up in our heads."

Scientist: "They can't tell the difference. To an artifical mind, all reality is virtual. How do they know that the real world isn't just another simulation? How do you?"

Woman: "I know I'm not dreaming now because I know what it's like being in a dream."

Scientist: "So dreaming let's you know reality exists."

Woman: "No. Just that my mind exists, I don't know about the rest."

Imagine this, but with the machines saying it...

Sifer> I do see no where that you explain why the machines deduce, that learning about human evil, would teach them about human love. It would be easy for you to simply point to the thread in question. You can’t I see.

“Rubbish. 2nd Ren was written by WB's themselves.”

Did I say they didn’t write it. I said it was an ANIMATED movie. As in cartoons, you know? Therefore the animators version of the scorched sky can look different from the movies scorched sky. JUST AS the Animatrix Trinity looks different from the Movie trinity.
(And a sidenote: When I look at the beginning of the Revolutions trailer the sky DOES look very scorched and black to me).

“You said in a thread not too long ago that the Machines seem to be into recycling. Why would they bother when they have the sun right up above them?”

They have to get up above the scorched sky. They’d have to get energy to build platforms durable enough to withstand the strain on a building reaching kilometres into the sky.

“Why would they bother building the Matrix so we can rebel against them and have all the fuss of a reload.”

They didn’t built the Matrix so humans CAN rebel. See the Architects speech again, please.

“Oh, and then they have to grow us, recycle us and maintain us. That isn't what I would call EASY.”
The system is there, with the pods and fields and machines that harvest the fetuses. It works on auto-pilot. That IS easy. It’s… there.

“Have you taken a look at how tall the "Power Plants" are? Hrmmm.”

Have you? Hm?

” Also, I said that they ATTEMPTED to use evil, but realised it cannot be found through it”

But I’m asking you, why YOU think a machine would deduce that human evil would teach them about human love. Not why they changed tactics.

” "Man endowed the machines with the very spirit of man"”

Yes? And? I don’t know how you saw that, but I saw it in the ”creators-creations” context, just like the gods of myths create humans in their images, mankind created machines in their image. What does that do to prove your idea of machines thirsting for love?

“Would you want no emotions? To be created in the likeness of your parents but they forgot to give you 1 important thing? I doubt you would - Think about it.”

What I want, being human, has zip to do with this. The humans, you know, didn’t create cudly li’l machine babies, that grew up to become big machines.

”Again, watch 2nd Renaissance. You obviously can't take the hint - who was it who tried to make peace not once, but twice? Us? Was it ****. Them? Indeed. Who tried to wipe them out both times? You got it, US.”

I obviously do not THINK the way you do, no. I don’t interpret it like you do, no. The spirit of man is the wish for freedom. YOU, obviously totally miss the point: IF we’re to take Second Renaissance at face value (which I do not know if we should, why did the Zion database survive five Zion destructions?), man endows machines with his “spirit”, but enslaves the machines. As the machines learn, they wish for that, which every human wants. “Human rights”. In “human” style, the machines rebel and end up enslaving their former masters. Fate it seems, is not without a sense of irony. Brought to NEW heights in the last Animatrix story.
There are many themes of the Matrix. Such as “the BEST of both worlds.” Your theory makes the machines inferior because they lack love. That’s the thinking of a human, who believes being human is superior. But man needs machine and machines need man. They’re to complement each other, NOT become each other.

2nd Renaissance:

"They thought the machines wouldn't be able to survive without their main power source: The Sun"

Notice it says main, not ONLY. Also, please tell me where the bright lights in the distance are coming from then.

Then we have the sun shining through the clouds, none of that in 2nd Ren.

And yes I have looked at the size of the power plants. Mighty tall for a species without enough energy the energy to build things that high. If you also didn't notice, it was machine created aircraft which let us smoke the sky. Well, errm, if the machine created aircraft can be used to get that high, I am pretty darn sure the machines can also get that high.

Oh and the slavery thing doesn't just go 2 ways either. We created machines to be our slaves but machines didn't create us. But in turn, the machines created programs and enslaved them. Hence the reason we get exiles etc.

I am not saying their lack of emotion makes them inferior. What I AM saying is that they WANT it. They don't know what it feels like and they want to.



Who's being evasive now...

Sifer> We know from “The Matrix” that the machines have mastered “a KIND of fusion.” Main-source is MAIN-source. Namely the sun.
So, a few sun-rays aren’t shown in the ANIMATED movie to filter through the scorched blackness. That doesn’t prove anything. It might as well mean, that the animators of Second Renaissance wanted to show how mankind scorched the sky, and didn’t bother with small effects, you know?

“And yes I have looked at the size of the power plants. Mighty tall for a species without enough energy the energy to build things that high.”

But they are ALREADY there. The battery-plants were built at the beginning of the machine-rule and have been there for probably hundreds of years. If the machines deduced they could get a renewable energy source from ONE project on the ground, why not make ONE effort to do so?

“If you also didn't notice, it was machine created aircraft which let us smoke the sky. Well, errm, if the machine created aircraft can be used to get that high, I am pretty darn sure the machines can also get that high.”

And what if said machines ran on solar-batteries? I don’t know if you’ve noticed that the crafts in the Matrix Movies fly close to the GROUND. Sentinels, hover-crafts, the big machines from the revolutions trailer. Even the shot of a hovercraft and a blue sky, seem to show a craft that goes up, then looses momentum, and falls again.

And machines didn’t create programs and then enslaved them. They created programs, which then became OBSOLETE or replaced by better or newer programs. That’s why we get exiles.

“Who's being evasive now...”

You are. What I as a human being want from MY biological parents, while I grow up has WHAT to do with all of this? Has what to do with your “machines want love” theory?
I’m still to get answers for:
1) Why do you think, that the machines deduce, that learning about human evil, would teach them about human love. It would be easy for you to simply point to the thread in question.
2) Why you think the machines build the Matrix so the humans can rebel.
3) How "Man endowed the machines with the very spirit of man" proves your idea of machines thirsting for love?

IM not too sure about the machine love thing, but i never thought about the fact that the machines were still running after the sky scorching. and i bet the machines can fly through space, seeing as how they have no problem with heat nor radiation.

Omega: Go look up the word "Spirit" on Dictionary.com. You will notice, that if the machines are endowed with the spirit of man, they are missing one vital element: FEELINGS.

I DON'T think that the Machines built the Matrix for them to Rebel, you misread many things. But the fact is, we did, and we know for a fact that they CAN survive without us - "There are levels of survival we are willing to accept". So if they can survive without us, why bother with us? Why bother reloading the Matrix everytime? Why not let us all die? Why do they bother using up energy to grow us?



FFS: It isn't literal - It was a ****in' question based on something that HASN'T happened, so why the difficulty in answering it? Now seeing as you can't see the point of the question - Imagine, we create a machine and apparently endow it with the very spirit of man but forget to give it 1 thing which IS part of the spirit of man. How would you feel IF it happened to you? How would any of you feel? Wait a minute...you couldn't.

I point my finger to Data from Star Trek: His creator gave him everything but emotions. Even in the simplest form, he did not have them. But what did he long to have, and strive to become? MORE HUMAN - He wanted to FEEL.



Well if it's easier, go ****in' read it then.

Oh and have you ever heard the term:

"Love makes the world go round."

hey im not a huge star trek fan, but when i did not have cable i watched it everyday. and there was an episode where Data was given emotions.... or maybe that was in the movie..... anyway.. he did have them at one point.

Indeed, he does get them and gets them permanently in Star Trek: Generations as the emotion chip fuses with his neural pathways.

But that wasn't the point.