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I've been reading alot of the spoilers around this forum and others and there seems to be one thing missing that was mentioned in Reloaded that seems to have been missed. I've read alot that the simple act of Neo walking through the door that he did is what triggers the downfall of the matrix in some way. But after watching Reloaded again I saw something that I've yet to see a post on. During the conversation between Neo and the Oracle Neo asks if he has to choose whether Trinity lives or dies the Oracle says, no, you've already made the choice, now you have to understand why. That seemed to be a prevailing theme through the whole conversation...Neo has already made his choices...but he has to understand why he made them. So I'm thinking that him choosing the door that he did was already predetermined...but he has yet to understand why...and that understanding is what leads to whatever the ending will be. Perhaps I am reaching abit. Another thing I thought while watching the movie again, I've read alot of forums where people think that the Oracle is the mother, for some reason, I don't believe that (a good possibility I am wrong) but certain things throughout the movie made me think that Persophne (sp??) is the actual mother of the matrix. I may be trying to hard to make a link between the kiss of her and Neo and how the Architect is describing her. Anyway, time for sleep for me.

i thought Persephone was the mother. good observation. and yes, he still has to understand why he made that decision. well, all these spoilers suc anyway.

i think that there IS no choice for the humans, or even the machines, it is all predetermined, so Neo must understand why the choice has been made FOR him...the illusion of choice, as the Mero says, is what makes the humans accept the Matrix.and i dont think either Oracle or Persephone are the mother...

well, as I heard someone say before in another forum, it's probably going to be a sort of "battle of philosophies" and we'll just have to wait to see which one wins out in the minds of the W. Brothers.

I disagree with Jedi, I think that the humans do have a choice, but the choices they have are limited, but heck, I'm just a newb so by default you can choose to ingnore me and listen to jedi

when it all boils down to; life or death, there is no choice

so who makes the choices then? If this is all a mechanism of control, who controls it? and who controls that person? Is there an end to this? Some say God, so is the Source the God of the Matrix?

perhaps it is all an experiment...

do you actually believe that, jedi? Or are you being facetious?

i'm not sure what to believe, once we leave the Zion world...Is it controlled by humans, or machines? are they kind, or evil? whats the point of the matrix? I guess you could say i am playing Devils advocate, testing theories, making people think...

prolly jus sum guinea pigs running around w/athlon 64 FX processors strapped to their backs, like lab rats or sumthing..

which is a good thing to do, play devil's advocate, maybe I'm just trying to figure it out too myself...

possible, or maybe the american government has commissioned a scientific research expedition to set up a controlled environment that determines the flaws in humanity, in order to better understand ourselves, and thus create more powerful humans...anybody still reading? JJ!!! HAHA

Remember this...?

"Comprehension is not a requisite of cooperation."

Actually...the Archie said that given the test subjects the illusion of choice they responded well to the program. The oracle does not affect specific choice; only in a general way. The oracle says "you must climb the steps to the top" but not how. In that way she says "you must go to the Mero blah blah blah" but that does have nothing to do with the fact that Neo has chosen the left door.

yeah, i got yo back, Omega...

If the Oracle is directly telling the future to someone, she is removing the ability of free choice from him.

Frale> Nice point. You are right, I think the answer is "Love". Neo was given a choice (whether others want to accept that or not) to save the people in the Matrix or Trinity. His love for Trinity outweighed his love of humanity. Thus he chose her.

One thing you made me think of. The consequences of Neo's act. We've talked about how Neo couldn't destroy the Matrix because it would wake up and kill millions or even billions of people.

BUT, what if the Architect wasn't lying and the Matrix now has passed a point of no return. A cataclismic crash is bringing the Matrix down. Could that be part of the ending?

preist...would he have broken the vase if she said nothing about it?

We don't know. Maybe, maybe not. The future is inevitable.

I agree. Humans do have a choice. The computer program analogy is nice, but not complete. One could look a program and determine what will happen next. BUT, that doesn't factor in input from an outside source. (aka humans) You can look at ETM and know what happens during the intro. But once a human starts to control a character, you do not know what will happen. You have probabilities, but do not know exactly.

If someone can see our future actions, that does not affect what we choose. Just that they know our choice.


Finally, the movies will end with no clear decision on this issue. There will be a "battle of philosophies" with no winner.

Exactly!

I can buy both of these. Don't fully support either but don't vote against them at all.

Good night.

But if fate is a factor, then we have no choice...

But what if they tell us what they see. Doesn't that create a paradox? And infinite loop with an infinite feedback? It is like the time-machine paradox. If I create a time machine, I won't be able to change things in the past because if I change them I would have no reason to create the time machine, but I don't create the time machine, how would I change them etc...

I just thought of something. What if, Neo gains the ability to rewrite the CODING of the MATRIX itself, not just the little programs like those that control bullets and gravity, but the conditionals in the entire program? i mean, think of it like this...

the archie sees that there are only TWO possible explanations, two conditionals (thanks for the idea, Omega),
1) one is Neo goes through right door, recycles Matrix, rebuilds Zion...
2) two is Neo goes through left door, attempts to save Trin, fails, Smith kills Neo, Matrix and Zion dead.

But Neo gains the power to ADD a conditional, something the Archie thought previously impossible, Neo adds
3) three is, Neo goes through left door, saves Trinity, Destroys Smith-virus, joins with Machines, world is saved and there is a future for both species...this would invalidate the Archies phrase that they won't meet again, b/c Archie is basing this phrase on the fact that Neo will die by Smith... NEO WOULD TRULY BE THE ONE, THE ULTIMATE HACKER

And become the real One. The man that could rewrite the Matrix. The one that Morpheus has spoken for in M1.

exactly, the prophecy IS true, but there is ONLY ONE ONE which fulfills the prophecy...and that man is...NEO!!! (time for Korri to say something about her "man"

Metaphysics my dear Watson, Metaphysics

i'll help you...each time the matrix is reloaded, it becomes more corruptes, because there is more and more human "choice" causing the codes to become more and more wild, if you will...therefore, each time, the anomaly becomes, i guess you could say, more reserved from the rest of his species, yet, more a part of them...almost like the one was created by the machines, and the original choose what the machines WANTED him to, but each time the anomaly is created, he becomes, almost more human, until...NEO, the sixth, (which, biblically speaking, means he IS HUMAN) who LOVES another, more even then he loves his fellow man...

I am sure I brought this up in the "It Begins - Possible Spoilers" thread...

yes, i got it from someone, added some of my own touch, just restating it, for the newbs..

Love conquers all and combines them? *evil snickering* hehehehehe

SMITH THREW EVERYONE INTO THE MIXING BOWL!!! THEY'RE NOW COOKIES!!! RUN!!!!

Omega> yes, i agree...wait, did i just say i agree...umm, i mean...oh, boy...

Prophecies are not "true" or "not true". They are either fulfilled or not fulfilled.

A prophecy is defined as: a) An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b) A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

The prophecy is in M1 was stated as follows:

MORPHEUS When died, the Oracle at the temple of Zion prophesied his return and envisioned an end to the war and freedom for our people. That is why there are those of us that have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix, looking for him.

Up to this point, that person has not appeared. The war has not ended their is not freedom for the people. The propechy is UNFULFILLED. It could still happen in the future. When it does, it is fulfilled. If it does not happen with Neo, then maybe the next guy.

The only other option is that their was no prophecy to begin with. That the whole "One" thing was just made up and passed down the line. That it did not come from the Oracle the Temple of Zion.

YES YOU DID! So from now on I'll just quote that one tiny part of your sentence...

Okay, I need to go. I have to pick up my Matrix-Marathon ticket tomorrow from the booking-office. Good-night and TC!

ACCKKKK!!!

In writing my last reply I came upon something.
The prophecy is explained by Morpheus as:

MORPHEUS When died, the Oracle at the temple of Zion prophesied his return and envisioned an end to the war and freedom for our people. That is why there are those of us that have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix, looking for him.

Who was the Oracle at the Temple of Zion?
The same Oracle that we know and love? Or someone else?
If it is the same person, that would lend credence to the MWAM theory. Or that the computer/Matrix programs have figured out a way to live outside the Matrix. Hmm....

Morpheus DOES NOT SAY the "oracle at the temple of zIon", he says the oracle, plain and simple...go back and watch the movie, 45:15:00 or right around there...

Jedi, Omega, Sifer, Tshirt.... I have been gone for far too long. I just read what you guys have posted. Wow, I really like where you're going with this! Really. I think you guys are on to something. I will have to stay tuned and see what else you guys come up with.

Omega> Which theory would this be...?

The third-choice one from last night.
I can't help but feeling there's something MORE to it, but I still can't put my finger on it. It deals with the number 3, though.

Omega> oh, ok...yes, everything seems to be just out of reach...