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agents have the ability to whipe the memory of an individual in the matrix. trinity has a past of amazing computer work, but what kind of work? could she be the one archie has dubbed the MOTHER OF THE MATRIX and she just doesnt know it? its just a thought, because the agents could have whiped her memory so she wouldnt know. plus we really dont know ANYTHING about trinitys past except that she was one of the best hackers in the matrix, and the way neo talked about her computer work it sounded like she was better at it then him.http://http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/starwars.gif you see the only thing that can cotradict my theory is that she has plugs in her so what do ya guys think

she does not seem like an intuitive program that studies the human psyche.

maybe she is and thats why shes in love with neo.....

the only thing SHE studies is...Oh, hey, Korri...

>on

WHOA! (he he he)

bsck to the subject please!

It impossible that Trinity would be the mother of the Matrix. The Mother of the Matrix is the city Zion itself. It makes perfect sense, too. After all, everything that's happening in the Matrix has a direct and undirect relation with the city Zion.

well I don't know all theorys are welcome but I can't really in perticulair see why it should be trinity or zion, I still think it is the oracle...

it could be like hmmm . pers.... uhh the chick who kisses people ( i forgot her nane and how to spell it ).... or maybe like archie is agy or sumthin..... ever think of that.... or just maybe the archie jus doesnt want to admit who it is ... it most likely is oracle.

The Architect made it perfectly clear it is the Oracle who is the Mother of the Matrix. He created her as an intuitive program to help him understand the nature of human beings better, and then make a Matrix that would last and not present anomalies.

I saw the title of this thread, and all I can say is "no"

..... sorry mindbugaling

Verity> The Architect DID NOT make it clear, thats why there's so much confusion.

Trinity is not the Mother of the Matrix. She has only been out of the Matrix for 11 (?) years (she tells you in M1).

Possibilties really are the Oracle or Persphone or someone we don't know. My money is on the Oracle. That is part of the reason why she is now helping the humans. She is helping her "children" just as a mother would.

Zion? A city? I just don't see that.

it is most likely that it is the oracle because she is a program that can predict the future, that includes the human psyche... and that's what the whole matrix is about; to create an AI environment that people will take for granted. You need someone who is good with the programs and you nee someone that can predict what people do to overcome demolition. The oracle is the only person who could do that...

No.

For Trinity to be even remotely considered as the Mother of the Matrix, you first have to make me believe in the MWTM theory (which I currently do not). Because the mother is an intuitive PROGRAM.
No, my money’s on the Oracle as well. Show me just a single program in the Matrix more motherly than her(it), and more intuitive.

That the Architect says “pleaasse”, when Neo responds with “The Oracle” to his presentation of the mother could simply be:

“Goodness, that is SO obvious, why do you interrupt me?”
“Nonsense. Her name is GHTy-6876-T.”
“Don’t interrupt me.”

Because the very next thing the Architect says is “AS I was saying…” as if his “please” was more of a scolding of Neo, not for guessing wrong, but for interrupting.

you got that right omega exactly what I was thinking!!!

Yeah that's quite a good theory actually, I never thought of it like that.

hey audioheem kewl sig (not to get off-topic )

it is a POSSIBILITY, like i was saying she could have fallen in love with neo in M1 because she understands the human physce. the agents COULD have erased her memory, AND it would make a great twist at the end of M3, but secretly i beleive the oracle is most likely the mother of the matrix, but trinity might end up being it too who knows, none of us has seen the movie so we have to be open to all possibilities. she could have gotten out of the matrix like bane did, by enjecting herself into someone elses body....or something of the matter

* I have eyes that watch*

i still think persephone has the best shot at being the mother if its any of the characters weve already seen... she studies human physce.. emotion.. love.. its all there

I think you are very wrong about that........

forumcrew> the thing that tickles me about that is that persephone wasnt really introduced in the movie as such a big character, so it would be kinda wierd if she was all of the sudden dubbed the mother of the matrix...... it would have to be somebody big in the movie OR somebody we havent met just yet

yea but the mother wasn't introduced until after we met persephone anyway... and whats to say persephone wont be more important in revolutions.. plus the mothers importance occured before matrix 1 therefore we wouldnt of seen her in her most important time.. making it the oracle almost makes her TOO important.. and trinitiy.. well personall i find that kind of stupid..

when she was introduced in reloaded, she remineded me alot of a misstress to the merov. thats what i thought she didnt seem like mother material

well i believe that is what she is now pretty much.. greek mythology.. persephone was the daughter of zeus and was taken to the underworld by hades and is the queen of the underworld now.. i believe she WAS the mother.. only because she happend to find a solution, because it took some one LESS then perfect.. that does not mean in anyway she should be motherly at all! and i also think it disqualifies the oracle, because she seems almost perfect with her purpose whereas persephone seems to play games... dare i say Give choice... and is absolutely obsessed with love....

Yes he did! Was it not clear to you?

That's a little far out...

Also...in any case, isn't Persephone considered to be the mistress of "the banished one"?....kinda like Lucifer?, or whatever u wanna call him...

which fits her character and the greek mythology.. someone atleast disprove what i said about her a few posts up... i know in reality it will prolly be the oracle or it wont be brought up and it was just some random program.. but persephone is makign soo much sence to me

So u think Persephone is the mother?...or did I just misunderstand u?....

Persephone does NOT study human emotions. She samples love. That’s something completely different. I can sample, say, a pinapple, without studying it at all.
There is absolutely nothing in Reloaded to back up Persephone being the mother. When compared to the Oracle, Persephone is a bored upper-class program, who’s lost her original purpose and is bored to death.

BY THE Way, Trinity was an accountent.

LOL

Ahem... yes. That should've been.... bored to deletion. I know, my mistake

verity> no, i did not find it to be 100% saying "it is the oracle"...

Crash> And you know this because... ?

We can't say with 100 percent certainty, that the Oracle IS the Mother of the Matrix. But since the Architects speech can be interpreted in many ways, AND since the Oracle is the most motherly program we've encountered ... My money is on her.

Late in Europe now. Good-night everyone.

He just mocks Neo when he says the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix because the Architect doesn't look highly upon her...He sees her as a trraitor! Just as the Merovingian, calling her a fortune teller...But she is the Mother program as he would be the Father of the Matrix, whether he approves or not!

My opinion is that Persephone is the mother. As forumcrew said, she was created to study the human psyche, which involves love. And when Neo says that the Oracle is the mother, the architect says "Please" sarcastically, which I think meant that Neo was wrong, but I may be incorrect.

Actually, its impossible for the Agents to erase Trinity's memory because 1) Agents have no mental power over hackers and 2) Trinity and the gang are hackers and they hack into the Matrix

and why would the Mother of the matrix have sex with her son(if all the people in the matrix are the sons and daughters of the matrix)?? ewwww

yay another believer..

VERITY> i believe that the architect thought that too!

Unknown> The human psyche: Synonyms are soul, nature, being.
The mother does not study human emotions. If that was the purpose of the Mother of the Matrix, don't you think a correct program as the Architect would've said "emotions."
Psyche, among things, deals with super-ego, subconcious, id - and such things as behaviour and why we CHOSE as we do.

It's been mentioned countless times in as many articles: Persephone is a kind of emotional vampire. There is even here on KCM.
And an emotional vampire doesn't really fit the description of mother.

But the Wachowski Bros. may want you to think that she's not the mother by making her an "emotional vampire".

I don't think the Oracle is the mother. When the Architect describes the mother, right away we think its the Oracle, and even Neo plays on this idea. There are two reasons why the Architect said "please" to Neo:

The Oracle was not the Mother of the Matrix, or
he thought it was stupid to name Mother the Oracle.

But if the Oracle is the mother, then she would have knowledge of the destructions of Zion and the past ones. In the first Matrix movie, she says to Neo that Morpheus has been with us since the beginning. This then must refer to the beginning of that Matrix. The Wachowski Bros may just want to play on this feeling that its the mother because of the Oracle's importance to the Neo and the others. But still, she may be the mother, because Seraph says to Neo in Reloaded that he protects (i'm guessing the Oracle) that which is most important.

no way trinity cant be the mother of the matrix
the artichect told that it was a program first built to understand human psyche (so how can trinity be a program, so to speak, like an agent)

honestly, we dont know who is the mother of the matrix,
but it seems that it is persephone
bcoz she IS a program as Mero is

okokokok I have to post one more thing about this... if you read my other few posts in this thread abotu persephone it is all explained fairly well but i just saw this today.. more on the mythology

Persephone: Hades kidnaps Persephone. Demeter searches for her and asks Zeus for help. Demeter is neglecting her duties and the world has turned cold. Zeus helps, but it is too late, because Persephone has eaten six pomegranite seeds

the key to this beign the last part.. eaten six pomegranite seeds... 6 seeds neo is the 6th one? perhaps she was kissed 6 ones? this doesnt really prove being the mother at all only being around the entire time.. and playing a key role

**has kissed 6 ones not was kissed.. sorry bout that.. btw it wouldnt let me edit cause it had been too long thats why the new post

the mythoilogy to pers. bein the mother doesnt quite add up though, you see its quite a stretch

well the kissin 6 ones eatin 6 seeds was kinda seperate from the mother thing.. just curious about it... but all my other persephone info is on here so i put it with it

well the six seed thing actually made sense to me but the other stuff

I posted this in another thread and thought it might be more relevant here...

Everyone is missing one subtle, but important point. The mother is the Oracle. First, I must assume that Neo, having this conversation with the Architect, fully understands and knows what the Architect is saying (although most of us have had to read the transcript and see the movie like 3x to finally 'get it'). If you follow the conversation, Neo basically affirms his understanding of what the Architect is saying all throughout the conversation. My point here is this: if Neo is fully understanding - not necessarily agreeing with - the Architect, which we can presume he does (see below), then he must also be right about the Oracle.

1st statement: Architect explains what Neo is and Neo responds by saying you haven't answered my question. Architect is surprised both his response AND the speed with which Neo responds - this basically PROVES to the Architect and to us that Neo understands what the hell the Architect is saying. 2nd statement: Architect tells Neo there was more than one Matrix and that there were more Ones before him. Neo responds by saying "Either no one told me or no one knew". Architect agrees with his conclusion. 3rd statement: Architect talks about anomoly of the Matrix and Neo affirms his understanding by saying it's about choice. Again, Architect expounds on the problem of choice. 4th statement: Architect talks about ppl who reject the Matrix creating an escalating prob. of disaster and Neo immediately understands that this is about Zion. The Architect agrees and expounds on it some more. 5th statement: Architect talks about attachment to humans in a specific way (love) and Neo understands that he is referring to Trinity. Architect, again, agrees and explains.

If we presume that Neo knows what the Architect is saying, then Neo is right about all of his conclusions throughout this entire conversation, including his referring to the intuitive program as the Oracle! After all, Neo was one of the smartest hackers in the Matrix. You'd think he'd be able to make logical grasps of new information. The Architect's 'please...' only shows his disdain for the humans' mideval reference to an individual who is nothing more than a program. any other explanation is streteching...

Actually, I looked it up, and she ate seven pomegranate seeds, not six. And while I was looking it up, I read that Hades, Persephone's husband, carried keys to signify that no one could escape from his realm. This could be represented by Merovingian, Persephone's husband, carrying keys made by the keymaker. And I heard that Merovingian owns Club Hel.

hehe

only joking

Does the Merovigian own Club Hel?

ehm well he acts like it his anyway

the thing i looked up said 6 but ohwell i dont care anymore.. just waitin for the movie

it was supposed to be six...half year in and half year out...they musta just mistyped...

i know i said i didnt care but YES it ws 6 wohoo.. ok back to giving up and waiting hehe

What are you talking about?

Six seeds in the fruit Hades gave to Persephone in Greek mythology

She secretly ate SEVEN seeds. She didn't even tell Hades about it.

huh? But everyone has checked and it says six...

aaargh... I don't know.

In my mythology book, it says seven.

Well, like I said, I don't know... It's just that some have said both and now it's leaning to the 6 side...

But don't argue with me cuz I have no clue...

I looked it up on a website, and it says six seeds, but whatever, they are different versions of the myth.

I think so...

The Architect disapproves of the Oracle being called an Oracle...plain and simple...i believe she does know about the previous destructions of Zion...if there was such a thing! I believe she has hope that Neo can change that!

then what ELSE are we supposed to call her?!?!?! Her name is the Oracle...i've never heard her or anyone else call her anything OTHER than the oracle...

maybe MOMMIE?

Psyche: Nature, soul, being. Also includes such things as super-ego and the subconscious.
Emotions are something else.
As I’ve said countless times, someone is STILL to show me how Persephone is more motherly than the Oracle. The latter bakes cookies, hands out candy, gives advice and wears and apron! Persephone acts like a spoiled bored aristocrat.
Maybe she once did study emotions. Sampled them, to understand them. But now she can’t feel love anymore.

“… initially created to study certain aspects of the human psyche.”
“The Oracle.”
“Pleaasee. AS I was saying…”

Note the wording. The Architect may simply be annoyed because Neo interrupts him. Note the “as I was saying.” Or, that’s not her official system-name.

Yes, the Oracle has probably guided the previous Ones along the same path as Neo. Initially she studied the human psyche, now she acts as a system of control, foreseeing events and leading the One to the Source. Or acTED. She’s made the choice to help Neo (ETM). There are perhaps limits to how much she can diverge from her original programming, but she may be trying.

one thing... beign the mother of the matrix doesnt have to have shit to do with being motherly.. in the architects speach he says she stumbled upon a solution where meerly 99% of the... so on we all know it.. this does NOT mean she needs to be motherly at all.. im not saying this makes persephone the mother or make the oracle not the mother.. but im just saying the "mother" of the matrix does not at all need to be motherly

Forumcrew> THAT is of course perfectly possible. However: The machines do use names, that are related to human usage. The Architect – The Father of the Matrix (authority, creator, “god” as per freemason usage). Or what about names like The Oracle, the Keymaker, the Merovingian or – even - Persephone. The machines are obviously well aware of our connection to archetypes (making the name Architect even cooler).
So why even refer to himself as FATHER, if it’s not to be taken in a strict, even old-fashioned fatherly sense? And along the same line of reasoning, the “Mother” would have motherly traits.

Guys,

This is my first post. I'm writing from Brazil. It's good to be with you.

Anyway, I believe that the mother of the Matrix should be a very old woman, someone who must control the 1% of the population who just can't accept the Matrix.

Ergo, this woman probably resides IN Zion and should be a very powerfull woman, correct? I think all of us here now believe that Zion is just another computer program to keep the 1% who can't accept the Matrix in control, correct? So this must be a woman who can really change things, someone who has a world of power. Someone who can keep the people and their soldiers (of Zion) on the path that the Machines want them to... meaning.... this is a woman that must have enough power as to control the path Zion is following.... a path that must follow the initial plan. Of Neo saving Zion and fulfilling the prophecy.

So, who is this woman? Remember the council hearing? Where Commander Lock is trying to convince the council that they need all the ships.... bla bla bla.... anyway. There is a very old woman who very clearly leads this meeting. She is the boss. She is the one who demands that two ships go after the Neb.....

Don't believe me? Why not? I'll show you....

Look, we all know that the machines came up with this The One program, to control the 1%. So, this womans job in Zion is to make sure that Morpheus gets Neo to the source. In order to do so, they need the Keymaker. They get him. But WHAT IF Niobe hadn't been there to save Morpheus when he falls off the truck? Agent Jones would have killed the Keymaker and then what? And what if there weren't two ships sent to aid the Neb? There would be no way to get Neo through the door in exactely 314 seconds.

So you see, guys, it was just to make sure Neo got there. What they didn't expect was for Neo to make the other decision, vis-à-vis, to choose the door on his right.

What do you all think?

treading on thin ice, dude...NO one, save myself, believes in MWAM anymore...and, as everyone else on this forum knows, i am a big proponent of purpose...everything happens exactly as it HAS to happen, because it is MADE to...also, the mother would NOT be in zion, unless she dies and is reincarnated so that her life is the same length as those humans...otherwise, around the 100th year, if not earlier, when people noticed she hasn't aged or grown feeble, they would get suspicious. the Mother is a program in the matrix, but not necessarily the oracle or persephone...i do not think the mother is either one of these programs, but rather another program...one we have not met yet, perhaps she is even incarnated in Kamala or Sati...i know not many other people think this way, so, waiting for opposing viewpoint...

the savior one problem is the mwam (the fact that zion is a program) has been about 99% surely disproved.. not until i see the movie i wont say 100% and the mother doesnt control those who dont accept it, she found a way to make 99% accept

the counciler wasnt the one.. hamman was the one who helped morpheous cause.. its a good idea.. just think theres too many holes and too many stretches..

I just finished watching "Reloaded" again. Awesome. I was watching it with this thread in mind.

The Peresphone myth as Queen of the Underworld is only part of the reason I think she is the mother of the Matrix. The other part? She's married to the Merovingian. In that myth, The Merovingian represents the lineage of the Christ and husband/protector of the divine feminine. The divine femine is the yin/yang completion of God. So, if the architect is the creator - Persphone would be his partner - other half.

So, I think Peresphone is who the Architect refers to as the Mother of the Matrix.

OK, I'll get even worse here: Peresphone says of her husband the Merovingian, "He used to be just like you" to Neo. AND, the oracle says to Neo "...the Merovingian is one of the oldest of us ."

So, I also think the Merovingian belong to that elite group of five former "Ones" with Neo as sixth As a matter of fact because of what the Oracle says of him, I think he was the first "One." So, if Peresphone married him shortly after He went through the first cycle as "the one," Persphone is a least as old as the Matrix.

Neo is just starting to be able to see the future and the Oracle is quite good at it, The Merovingian can see the future too. ("The Merovingian has been expecting you." But, this former savior turns out evil - corrupted by power and the Oracle has become his nemesis by remaining good and true." "Tell the fortune teller that her time is almost up!" So, I think Peresphone looks bored because she married a former savior who evolved to be a pompous, self absorbed ass.

The group of the five former "Ones" had something in common: They all chose to save the world and took the savior route for humankind. Zion was destroyed and humankind was reseeded. Peresphone as goddess of life-death-rebirth wrote the script and they followed it because of a profound brotherly love for mankind.

Neo however is different. His profound love is just as strong - but it is specific - a love for Trinity. He's the first of the six to take that possible, but very remote choice. Peresphone knows he's going to choose the other door, so, she wants to sample the passion from the One that refuses the choice she designed as the solution for this problem of choices.

So, if she can know what Neo is going to do - So might the architect. Therefore, the machines have designed into the Matrix contingencies.

I can wait to see Revolutions! Counselor Humman says "We need the machines and they need us." Maybe Revolutions won't be the end of the Matrix - nor the end of Zion. Maybe it'll be the birth (or discovery) of a new Martix.

I can't wait to find out...

okok first off let me say one thing.. i posted a crap load about persephone being the mother.. but im gonna have to tear your post apart a tad..



by this i believe she simply means love... because she could tell neos love for trinity, i think she mean he used to love her, persephone says i once knew what it felt like...




I have to disagree with this entire part.. the mero is not a former one, he says to neo your predasisers had much more respect, and also ok you have some skill.. he was suprised by neo a bit if he was a "one" this wouldnt of happened, hes also a program.. neo is not a program the mero would need to be jacked in to be a one.. unless one of the theorys about revo is right that the mind can live wihtout the body and stay within the matrix.. either way im 99% sure he is not a former one.. it defies logic




they all choose to follow the system of control, they didnt save shit.. they think they did because they were just anomalys of the system who gave into control still.. neo is the true "One" love.. theres that word again plays a part in this.. neo will be the true savior of humanity in revo the mero refers to him as a saviour.. he is the first true saviour. also persephone is the goddess of death.. never have i seen life or rebirth added to that id be curious to see where u got that.. also how u can justify her writing the script...

the mother/persephone didnt design a solution for the problem of choices. she found a way to make 99% of subjects accept it by giving them choice




that is true the matrix wont be ended.. ie the online game that takes place after revo and inside the matrix. revo will be an evolution of sorts.. neo accesnding to a higher level/meaning.. the child at mobile ave being special.. i still think the kid is pretty special.. but above all humans and machines will work together and coinside inside and outside the matrix.

again i agree a lot about persephone.. just saw a lot of holes in your arguments.. and theres not much left to debate so im trying to pose as many questions as possible.. feel free to respond back and tell me why im wrong u were right.. more details the better

Persphone is the mother of the matrix. I believe. She kisses Neo to feel the love he has for Trinity. I would say that that is all the human psyche investigation power you need.

also artichect told NEO that the mother of matrix is a pure program (means which has no body

in the real world)
trinity is not a pure program while persephone is

Why would the W Bros call him the "Merovingian" if he wasn't from the line of saviors? That whole Merovingian thing is quite specific from the Knights of Templar stuff: A line of French kings tied to the lineage of Christ and protectors of the divine feminine. Also tied to his thing with the cake and the woman in pink - sex in the ancient rituals was a way to glimpse God. Like power, sexual promiscuity was another thing that perverted the Merovingian from the Path. If you get a chance, read The DaVinci Code. It's outstanding. Also, if the Merovingian was the first anomoly, he would have been around to meet the other five...



Agreed: Neo has skills, strength and will that the other anomalies didn't have and does things the others did not - that's was my point too. The thing I was saying about love? His love and fidelity toward Trinity is so strong it's why he chooses to create his own rules and doesn't make the choice that the other five obviously made. The door Neo chose was rigged to blow up - that didn't stop him either. Yes, even among the five I'd think he was special.



Where did I get Peresphone's life-death-rebirth thing? Web encyclopedias like most of us! In a second Peresphone myth, she brings this guy's wife back to life. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

She is a life-death-rebirth deity. Persephone, as Queen of Hades, only showed mercy once, because the music of Orpheus was so hauntingly sad. She allowed Orpheus to bring his wife, Eurydice, back to the land of the living as long as she walked behind him and he never tried to look at her face until they got to the surface.



I think the humans had choice all along. That's one of the reasons why the first two matrices failed. Peresphone just caught the fact that choice was integral to the human psyche and together with the Architect designed the contingencies for choice into this upgraded matrix. Did you notice how the Merovingian pissed Peresphone off not just because of his infidelity, but because he denied choice and scoffed it as an illusion and mouthed off with his "cause and effect" tirade - which seemed at times directed toward Peresphone?

The Merovingian/Peresphone thing is just too well woven together. The W Bros did a magnificent job. I think they were trying to tell us something...

Hey. I have a favor to ask. I don't speak french so I can't translate The Merovigian's long spiel in french - a curse I think. The one Just before he says, "Its like wiping your ass with silk." It could very well have some meaning and I am very curious to know what he said. Can anyone provide us with a translation?

Lastly, what's with that man they're ushering out of the restaurant as Neo's coming in? The guys turns and stares at Neo and there is an obvious "Cuckoo-Cuckoo" drawing attention to the shot. At first I thought it might be Bain, but it wasn't. I don't recognize the guy, but I think the W Bros use of obvious and loud sound effects was pointing out 1) something of future importance or 2) a cameo from one of their personal friends.

Any ideas?

Cheers.

i do agree about persephone being the mother.. i just dont think mero is a former one.. i think all that could just represent his want of power.. and he is like a king in the matrix..

the guy being taken out is rama kandra him and his wife gave the mero the termination codes for the oracles shell to protect their child.. you see them all in the revos trailers and this is explained in the game.. search the forum for a deeper explination theres tons on this i dont really wanna type it all out again..

Persephone says in Reloaded that the Merovingian used to be like Neo, though she probably means that he used to love, but she might have meant that he used to be a One.

I don't think he used to be a One. But that's an interesting thought. I think it was that he used to love.

its love, love i tell you!

Archpublican> You make a big mistake. You use the Merovingian line of kings (mythologicaly connected to the Christian Jesus) to show Persephone as a divine mother. But to follow your line of reasoning, the MERO should be the Architect.
It’s not Mero who explains Persephone. It’s the other way around. Persephone explains the Merovingian as a “lord” of the Underworld (subsystems, subprograms), which enables him to act as protector of would-be deleted (dead) programs.

Out of the myths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingians Explains briefly what the real Merovingian line of kings were about.

Also: Merovingian to refers to an order of knights of the holy grail from the 18th century.

Osiris> The Architect never tells Neo, that the mother is a PURE program.

Whoa Omega. These first five words of your post add nothing to your argument and merely attempt to make me appear wrong. Note that making others appear wrong does in no way make your arguments appear right. Having gotten that off my chest...

You might want to double-check that definition of Merovingian. The knights of the Holy Grail normally refer to the Knights Templar, although there were/are others like the Priory of Sion.

I've seen the Wikipedia article before. Searched it out right after I saw Reloaded the first time. Quite sparse and without much detail or flavor but it lead me to more cool stuff: The books "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", "Mary the Magdalen" and "The DaVinci Code" do the story much more justice. Nevertheless, is there a point in there you wanted to draw upon to refute my musings about Peresphone as the MOTM?

Do you have any reasons for these conclusions you draw that I'm wrong?

My observation would only point to the Merovingian as the Architect if one assumed that the "Christian Jesus" was the Creator.

In the tradition of the Merovingians, Christ was only a man - deified as God only beginning with Constantine in the 3rd century. Constantine also tried to destroy any documents showing evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was or behaved in a mortal way. He thus pushed the church to create a canonical Bible and outlawed many other works, historical writings, Gospels and Apocrypha. The penalty for having or distributing these forbidden documents was death.

Despite Constantine's efforts, many of these documents were saved and have been rediscovered - Documents uncovered in Nag Hammadi in 1945 and only recently translated in volume are now in the Coptic Museum in Egypt. These are probably the most complete and most famous yet released publicly. Elaine Pagels wrote some great books about those gnostic gospels. Like the monks that are believe to have copied and buried the Nag Hammadi documents to preserve them from the Church's attempted eradication, The Knights Templar are too said to have found, preserved and now safeguard many such documents.

There's a double meaning to the Knights Templar's "Holy Grail:" San Greal means holy grail. But, change a letter and Sang Real means holy blood. Sang Real refers to their belief that Jesus was quite human, married Mary Magdalen and bore a family. Their descendants - the Merovigians included - were referred to as the Holy Blood. Some people think that The Knights Templar Holy Grail they protected was not a chalice, but a set of documents that proves Christ's humanity, his marriage to Mary Magdalen and provide historical detail of the lineage of their offspring. In addition to the esoteric histories and many fictional books based on them, these religious beliefs are alluded to in dozens of famous paintings, sculptures, concertos and literature dating back over 500 years.

So, if in these Merovigian related stories Christ is not even God, he is in no way tied to the Creator. No confusion of the Mero being the Architect.

Even in the Christian traditions, The Father and the Son are united but distinctly different persona in a tripartite God. No confusion here either.

You tossed a barb and didn't follow it up with any reasoning. Such ad hominem arguments are irrelevant to the sharing and tearing of ideas. Please, in the future feel free to tear into ideas. But, if not, please refrain from insulting the people who post them.

archpublican, making other people who contradict your point appear wrong will in fact make your point look right in the end, if the omega has a valid point and has found an error in what you might have said before, and may have spotted something you have overlooked, then he has the undeniable right to exclaim it to a certain degree. when somebody has tried to make a valid point with you, it is better to listen to their point then to shoot them down for trying, because once you have listen to what they have to say, you might have learned something. if what you have a point in the end that will also contradict their point, then you have the moral right to share it with him, remeber we are in a forum, and itis the time and the place for such arguments

did you just call...the omega...a MAN?!?! HAHAHA...wait until the GODerator sees THIS!!! ....Omega's a WOMAN...

my mistake (fast tyrper)

Didn't u hear the Mero say "fortune teller"??

Funny...

yeah he did say, that but he was just bein silly. i could call her 'the old black women who says a lota crap and likes to eat candy and cookies' (which who doesnt)

Well...that's my point! HE doesn't acknowledge her, like the Architect...They BOTH hate her, for what she is trying to do! They will call her names, but she is still the mother of the matrix, not because she might have "motherly traits" or what have u...but because she was THE initial program created BY the Architect to help him w his ignorance regarding human traits!http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/glare.gif

Well, JediHDM, even putting that quote in my signature didn't help, I guess. Mindbugaling! I'm female...

Archpublican> But you are making a mistake, and me writing that, is a statement. Nothing else. So don’t get over-exited, hm? Because if you’ll notice, I go on to prove my statement.
No, you might want to double-check, since Merovingian DOES refer to a grail-order. “A” being the key here.
As you undoubtedly know, there were countless more or less serious “orders” from the Medieval times and up until this day.
The Wikepedia article is still true, though. And give info on the point I was making. Namely that Merovingian in the real world, refers to a line of FRENCH kings (only in myth is there a connection to the Christian Jesus and Maria Magdalena).
The point being – since you seems to’ve missed it – that Mero need not be “divine” in any way. In connection with it being Persephone who “explains” Mero, more than the other way around (as explained in my previous post).

“Do you have any reasons for these conclusions you draw that I'm wrong?”
yes, please refer to previous post. But I’ll restate: You use the myth of Merovingian, to claim Persephone is ”divine”, that is ”Mother” of the matrix. But by utilising the mythos of divinity in the Merovingian, you forget to tell me, WHAT Mero then is. The pair Mero/persephone are connected, so if SHE is the mother, then by your reasoning, Mero must be the father.

A barb? If you cannot stand being told you’ve made a mistake, and then read the explanation that follows, then I cannot help you, and just note that you take the debating far too personal.

GO OMEGA! on!
>but seriously lets not get all diddley on this thread.
ARCHPUBLICAN: we still welcome you in this discussion, we would be happy to listen to anything else that you might have to say... we will not pry on your thoughts any longer.. i promise

Thanks mindbugaling. I know. And, I don't take them personally.

My words about ad hominem comments are for reasons of promoting rational discussion, not bruising nor strengthening, egos.

Whether aimed at me or anyone else, they distract from the subject at hand. What sets ad hominem apart is that they are addressed against the maker - whether true, false; a statement or a question of the originator. They in no way address the ideas themselves. The Greeks discovered over 2000 years ago that ad hominem statements devalue and lessen rational discussion, art music, etc. Just hoping to pass their fine points of discussion onto this modern medium. Anyways...

I don't think that having Persephone as the Mother of the Matrix requires that the Merovingian is the father. In Greek mythology, Peresphone spends part of her time in hades and part of her time on earth. So, her time could easily be split between the Merovingian and the Architect. I don't think that having her be the mother contradicts the obvious role of the Architect as father of the matrix.

I agree that Peresphone wouldn't have to be divine. The divine feminine is a just the name of a persona accredited with being the female half of the creator-god. The W Bros can throw out hints and innuendos, but a perfect fit would make things so obvious as to take all the fun out of it.

It'll be interesting to see how all our speculations pan out when Revolutions debuts next Wednesday. I can't wait got my tickets today off fandango.com.

Archpublican> Could you perhaps show me where I reject your claim based on some irrelevant fact about YOU?

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument

“I don't think that having Persephone as the Mother of the Matrix requires that the Merovingian is the father.” But you use The Merovingians mythical connection to the Christian Jesus, to show Persephone must be the mother of the Matrix. As I see it, you can’t just “make” the Mero “divine”, and then forget HIS “divinity”. This is my main problem with your theory.
Also, if you want to utilize the mythological Persephone’s two “habitats” you have to somehow show a split of the Matrix, in an underworld and a world, inhabited by the Merovingian and Architect respectively.

In all articles where the people behind the movies discuss Persephone, she’s presented as an emotional vampire. This goes well with her role as the seductress on the heroes quest (like sirens and mermaids from folklore), and her “abuse” of the kiss. Her betrayal (or faked betrayal) of the Merovingian. I write fake in a parenthesis, as Neo’s quest is, all in all, another system of control.

ok pershopne i think could be the mother of the matrix cuz the architect says that the mother came up with the solution that all they needed is chice now persophone is a vampire right but a emotion vampire she sucks the emotions of the humans and feels what they feel so she can feel that they need choice and the machines want love she sucks love from neo in such a sense

TH3> Choice is not an emotion.

r tushay but without chioce what is thier neo makes the choice to save trinity out of love?

Can you run that by me again? I don't understand the first part.

And that Neo makes a choice BASED on love, still does NOT make choice AN emotion, hence Persephone, as emotional vampire, could not learn about choice from being an... emotional vampire.

but love lead to choice shes not dumb! im not saying your wrong its just a possibiltiy

You write that she may FEEL that humans need a choice.
The Architect tells us that the Mother of the Matrix was an INTUITIVE program, that was INITIALLY created to study aspects of the human psyche.
An emotionl vampire doesn't sound very intuitive or as a psychologist, does it?
Psyche=being, nature, soul, the super-ego and subconscious. Emotions are something else. The Oracle, however, fits said description perfectly.

true its just a possibiltiy ok we just have to wait but the more i think i just dont know

Well, in less than a week we'll know.
Maybe we should open the Matrix Forum Casino, and start making bets on all the open questions.

yere

I don't think they'd let us...

well, i dont bet...(pssst, omega, i got a five spot on "Neo and Smith join into one"...)

Jedi> We should return to our regular scheduled debates and discussions when this... wave... have passed us.


Okay, it's a work-day tomorrow, so I'm off.
(Looks around and shakes fist at all spoiler-squiddies lurking in the dark corners of the web, just waiting to assault hapless forumites passing by).

spoilers?
a newbie. its a spoiling machine designed for one thing
join and destroy
how are we doing tank?
power off-line. OMEGA armed and ready
OMEGA?
THE OMEGA. its disables any spoilers in the thread radius. its the only weapon we have against the newbies.

let this thread die... dont let her see it... shel kill me

oh no, theres NO WAY im letting THAT get by unseen by OMEGA...NO WAY!!!

looks like it is dieing

ok, the mother of the matrix is not Trinity, she is human. The mother of the Matrix is not the Oracle, cause thats too easy (thats what people said about MWAM, so i say it about Oracle being Momma). Persephone is not the Mother, because, well, i cannot find a reason, aside from her personality, that would suggest she is not the Mother...however, i do not think it is her. I think that we have yet to see the Mother o Matrix...

Summed it all up...

Jedi... your reasoning... it apprehends me...

Okay, jj, I'm done with that

yea jedi but i think they will make it the oracle... in this one to keep it some what simple... did i really just say simple in terms of the matrix?

SO, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT IS THE KISSIN GIRL DOES, THAT WOULD BE QUITE COOL....THANKS and why is she considered dangerous? Kissing is not dangerous, it's fun!!!!!

read through the forums.. this thread alone i explained a lot about her.. do some search please i dont wanna explain it again