R2 and C3PO

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Texas
I dont know about you guys, but I really was disappointed at the lack of C3PO and R2 interacting in Episode I. They are my favorite SW characters. They have the best chemistry in movie history. Anyways, I was wondering if we'll see more of them as 'friends' in EPII? I sure do hope so! smile

queeq
I agree. 3PO's lines weren't great either. He tended to repeat himself quite a lot. (Two lines in a row saying that Jar Jar was odd!)

I still think GL shouldn't have brought them back in the PT. They hardly serve any purpose.

R.C
My personal opinion is that we shouldn't write off their PT involvement just yet. Something tells me that the importance of these two droids has been greatly underestimated....

There are still 2 PT films to go remember,

queeq
That's possible. But their part in Ep1 was totally useless.

And some of the lines 3PO has (or may have) are duplictaes of the OT as well. I did see that line "Sometimes I just don't understand human behaviour" pass by again. That made me worry. And there's a rumour of 3PO firing a blaster in Ep2. Is this exciting or worrisome? I dunno.

sand person no. 10
the reason he repeats his lines are beause he has probably been programmed with certain repsonses. i.e. "I am c3po human cyborg relations" or whatever it he says.

queeq
Okay, I dig that particular line. But let's face it, 3PO's lines are not really all that great in TPM.

darthyogi
Well, I'm with R.C. on this one. I think 3po and r2 are going to turn out to be critical, not only to the PT but the OT in ways we don't really know yet as well... as I've said on a number of (very long) occassions. big grin

queeq
I hope so. And I hope it's not more repetitive saves like in the OT. my only fear really.

King Jedi
Almost every character in SW has lines that they say over and over. Han Solo says "It's your imagination kid" in ANH and ROTJ.

Queeg how can you say that R2 and 3PO's involvement in TPM was useless? R2 saved the Queens ship and we found out that 3po was built by Darth Vader.

queeq
I don't like to be reminded of the latter, thank you? And why was that so important, anyway?

And if R2 hadn't saved the ship, some other droid would have. It was not as if he managed to dodge the laser beam best. I didn't see him dodge anything.

sand person no. 10
ah yes but he bipassed something or other and that little droid did it!

yerssot
He bypassed the main power generator; saving the day, and so we could see a WHOLE movie

queeq
And what makes you think one of the other droids couldn't do that?

Texas
Could you picture C3PO on top of the Naboo Cruiser trying to bypass the main power converter? Ohh, that would of gotten the biggest laugh. Well let's just be thankful that he wasn't up there, you know what they say, women and machinery just dont mix laughing out loud .........(I'm in trouble now!...Oh well, it was worth it) evil face

King Jedi
Well Queeg there is nothing in the O.T that another droid couldn't have done. So what's the difference?

In TPM, R2 was probably more of a hero than he has ever been.

Texas
.......I disagree. Wasn't it R2 that delivered the vital message to Obi in ANH. If it wasn't for him, we would have no Luke Skywalker, no destruction of the Death Star, no rebel victory. R2 is a hero in my book smile

R.C
Possibly the fact that they were slag metal, floating away from the ship....... laughing out loud

R.C
Aside from the fact that everytime 3PO said "Thank the Maker" he was thanking Vader. I don't know if it will be turned into anything crucial but it is a nice joke non the less.

I wonder if Chewie found a "Made in Tatooine" stick inside when he was fixing him? laughing out loud

King Jedi
laughing out loud

3PO the campest robot in the Galaxy was built by the baddest Sith. How do you think 3PO would react if he found out in the OT?

DJ Velocity
GL has already said that TPM was just a film to break the ice, introduce the "new" fans to Star Wars and to give a background to some key characters.

With that in mind, I am quite glad R2 and 3 PO were in TPM. Didn't anyone else wonder how R2 D2 got so spunky compared to other R2 units?

The reason behind him bypassing the main power converter was to show that this droid is special, he doesn't think like other droids.

C3 PO. I don't know, he is very argumentative and pompous. Other protocol droids don't seem to have this feature. Maybe we will see a bit more of why he is the way he is in AOTC.

3 PO firing a blaster? That is really worrying. He is supposed to be a coward.

King Jedi
I agree with that.

Texas all I was saying was that R2 was a hero in TPM, just like he was in the OT.

Ushgarak
By far the biggest change is that 3P0 and R2 lost their narrator/ordinary being status of the original films (based on the peasants from Kurasawa's The Hidden Fortress who follow the dead hard samurai guy around); this time around they are a fully integrated part of the plot.

King Jedi
And Jar Jar was given the role of the peasants in TPM. I think it will switch for the next two Episodes though. Maybe Jar Jar the Senator will become more important to the plot while the droids go back to their old job.

jedi212guy
I think that c3p0 will have a memory wipe by the end of Episode III, thus that's why he can't remember who his maker is.

yerssot
That was always accepted as the true, otherwise Threepio would have reconised Tatooine by a long shot

King Jedi
But R2 will keep his memory.(I hope)

yerssot
No, otherwise R2 would reconise Tatooine, remember: he was there also in TPM

Ushgarak
GL has referred to this matter as 'unimportant', though it is unclear whether he was directly dismissing the apparent anomaly or not. Whether we will see why the droids appear so ignorant is yet to be seen.

R2 could well have recognised Tatooine and just not mentioned it. That both those droids are capable of lying is well established.

yerssot
Remember that there is 30 years between, maybe they just forgot it

Ushgarak
Do droids forget? Even if they forget like humans, forgetting where you were created is a tad extreme.

yerssot
Hey! I'm just trying to get into GL mind

Ushgarak
Ah. Well, in that case, you are entering a mind that cares far less about little details like that than mad fans like US do...

yerssot
moving out GL's mind in 1 minute

sand person no. 10
there is nothing to suggest that r2 has had his memory erased, if anything when he lands on tatooine it is though he has been there been before, remember the way in which he and 3po seperated, r2 seemed to have a much clearer idea about where to go, secondly it would seem unlikely that droids forget, he remembered ob1 afterall.

Ushgarak
R2 COULD have just been told where to go; Leia presumably knew where to find Ben (in turn, Bail Organa probably told her).

But in general, who knows? Memory erasure is the common fan thing but maybe this will be forever unexplained.

queeq
The memory wipe is another one of those points that make me wonder what the heck these droids are doing in the PT. If this really happens they are ONLY eye candy and merchandise potential. GL better make this work.

And indeed the droids were the 'peasants' in the OT. If they are an integral part of the PT, I don't know. Not too fancy what I've seen so far. Just excuses to show them droids.

King Jedi
You're the only SW fan I know who doesn't want the droids in the PT. It wouldn't be Star Wars without them.


I still don't think R2 has his memory erased. It would be really good if he knew everything that went on in the PT.

yerssot
GL always said that SW was viewed by the droids, so they had to be in the new trilogy

jedi212guy
Damn right. they are the only ones from Episode I that live through all six movies. Rock on, droids! big grin

Ushgarak
That qould only work if the Prequel story WAS viewed by the droids; to judge from TPM it won't be. They really aren't playing the same part they were.

R.C
In 1/6th of the trilogy, I think we need to wait and see what happens in Episode-II. Judging by the number of different BTS images we have seen of Threepio, I tend to believe he will have a loit more to do in this movie.

Ushgarak
Yes, but very possibly still not in an observation/narrative role. It doesn't matter how much they are in it, if GL is going to justify their return by saying the story is viewed through the droids he should stick with that.

yerssot
Wel, 3PO is going to watch a lot of things with the rebellion:
"Are last Captain was captain Antilles."
"You fought with the rebellion against the Empire?"
Than I can't remember the rest but it ends with 3PO saying that it isn't interesting and that he is just an interpretor and he is not good at telling storys.
So he will get a good rol, maybe in II or III

Ushgarak
None of that stuff is on-screen; it qwill take place between the films.

It's still only a rumour, but therre is still that thing about 3P0 firing a blaster in the new film... in any case, I do not mindf the droids being in the new films but in the end they have come in in a different capacity, and I have seen nothing yet to make me think this will change for Ep. II.

King Jedi
Well there is supposed to be a scene where R2 saves Anakin by bungy jumping out of a ship.

R.C
Hmmmm, somehow I think that one isn'y quite factual.

King Jedi
Wasn't there a clip of it on one of the "on locations"? That's what I was told.

Ratcat
Well, there was a Bungying R2-D2 but I didn't think it was for that purpose.

queeq
It's not that I hate the droids. Don't get me wrong. I loved them in the OT where they served a distinct purpose. I haven't seen that in TPM. I think 3PO got bad lines (except for the unstable floor and parts showing lines), he served no real purpose. And frankly, neither did R2. They didn't do anything that gave cause for these two particular droids to feature. Even Anakin being 3PO's maker is somewhat absurd and makes them ending up with Luke all too much of a coincidence. And since Anakin being their maker has no conquence, why have them in the PT if they serve no reason but recognition.
R2 and 3PO served as a crucial part of the actual storytelling, so far they only serve as pure merchandising. And I think it's very weak to say that without the droids it wouldn't be SW. That's almost like saying that any story of Tolkien is nothing withourt Gandalf.
It's geofiction, it shouldn't depend on minor characters which in the end, 3PO and R2 are. It is after all ANAKIN's story and now I see my favourite droids cramped into his story with meaningless lines.....

So they are welcome, but please Mr. lucas, let them serve a purpose at least.

Ratcat
Paitience you must learn...laughing out loud

sand person no. 10
is the whole star wars galaxy not based around coincidence, read coincidence read fate, read fate read destiny!

Ratcat
Well, it is a point of view I guess...

jedi212guy
If c3p0 does shoot a blaster, it would be pretty funny, IF he falls from the blast and doesn't look all tough doing it.

King Jedi
Queeg, this is why I said you will enjoy TPM more when all the films are made. Right now there is a big hole in the SW story and until thats filled, some things in TPM will seem pointless.

But take the droids out of the prequels for a minute and imagine you've just watched the first 3 episodes. You switch on ANH and these two droids show up. Two droids that you haven't seen before. Wouldn't that seem odd?

You're right that they didn't have as much reason to be in TPM as they did the OT but I still think Lucas was right to introduce them in the very first Episode.

Even if they don't do much in AOTC I still think it's important that they are there because it will be those two droids that join the PT to the OT.

jedi212guy
Like I've said before, they are the only two "things" that survivefrom Episode I until the end. Everyone wlse gets wasted.

queeq
Anakin survives, storywise. OB1 survives, storywise. If we see Luke and Leia get born, they survive, storywise. Palpy survives, storywise, Owen Lars survives (for a while). So that's bogus.

And SW doesn't NEED them to continue as a saga. It's Anakin's story, not that of the droids.

And no, KJ, it would not seem odd if these droids show up. We're twenty years later since Ep3. Who cares where they come from. I think it's even odder that the droids Anakin grew up with end up in Luke's service without that even being picked up as a story theme or that it doesn't returnas a story element. That IS weak storytelling.
And there is the continuity problem anyway, the droids serve a very different purpose in the OT than they do in the PT. In the OT they are the VEHICLE of storytelling, not so much the story itself like they are now in TPM. So that focus changes all of a sudden. That is odd.

And also, I like to judge each film on it's own merits. That things are not just there to serve a purpose a few films later. That never happens in the OT. Even Fett has a small role, but he serves a purpose: he's the bounty hunter that catches Han. You don't need to see ANH to know Han has a price on his head, that's made perfectly clear in ESB. You don't need to see that he dies in ROTJ to appreciate his tiny role. In ROTJ you see the bad bounty hunter called Fett getting killed. You don't need to see ESB to figure out who he is, he'd just be a bddy getting killed.
Of course they are sequels, there should be continuity. But it's almost like giving Fett lines in the ANH SE just to make sure you see he's around. They didn't do that, there was no reason for it. They just showed him for a sec, he gets a purpose later.

Now, in TPM they are there quite distinctly, but they don't do anything that makes them necessary for the story. R2 fixes a ship and overwrites the autopilot: any droid could have done that. 3PO just says the same line twice and serves no prupose except for showing: look, he's here, see! it's SW.
IMHO that is redundancy.

yerssot
What you are saying isn't good; you say that other droids could do the stuff R2 and 3PO did, so you can go on and say that Luke and Leia didn't need to be there for the fall of the Empire, heck, you could even say that the Empire wasn't needed because there was one Empire, destroyed in ANH and after that a new one in ESB


I find this very odd

King Jedi
It's completely different. Fett is a minor character. R2 and 3PO basically told the story. If they weren't in the PT and then they showed up in the OT guiding you through the story you'd be thinking "Where were these guys in the PT?" or "Why are they taking us through the story?".

They are the thing that links the audience from the PT to the OT. Without them it would be disjointed. That's not weak storytelling. It's the only way the story can be told.






Anakin doesn't survive storywise. Darth Vader is a totally different character and there for a different reason. Obi-Wan only pops in now and again to fill in the spaces in the story. Owen dies in ANH, we won't see an adult Luke and Leia in the PT and you can't have Palpatine (the main villain) taking the audience through the story. That would be weak storytelling.


Even in TPM the two droids are around for the most important events.
Anakin winning the race.
Anakin meeting the Jedi.
Anakin leaving his mum.
Anakin destroying the ship.

They might not have said much but the two droids were still the two characters who were around for the important things and that will make their purpose in the OT more believable.

Ushgarak
They may have been around, but that isn;t relevant because they weren't presented as observers. Qui-Gon saw ALL of the major events but he isn' an observer either.

Not that I mind that much, but I think it is clear they are continuity characters this time around and not the eye of the story.

Still, I don;t think it was that necessary to have them in, even for that major link. I can take them or leave them; if they have good parts I am happy.

Though I am really nout sure if their presence makes their OT appearance more 'believable...' There was hardly a credibility problem. They were presented as the observers of the second triolgy; they didn;t NEED to do the same for the whole story. I fact, their presence has so far created more continuity problems than it has solved.

yerssot
explain please

Ushgarak
As in now it has to be explained why yhry do not comment on certain things the should in Ep. IV, I mean, we all know the various theoires as to why they don't and it is not that hard, but I was just saying that putting the droids in the PT DID create problrms, because they seemed to be presented as fresh characters in the OT.

sand person no. 10
i disagree with this fresh characters idea, they are linked to the pt if only in a small way, r2 thinks that he was once the property of ob1, only a small link but still a link, its no wonder that ob1 cant remember him after all the stuff he's been through, i think too much is being read into the part the droids play in both trilogies, they are just part of the cast like Han is, like leia is and like Luke, they play a part and add to the story like all of the other characters, obviously without them as characters the story would lose a lot of its plot but the same can be said for any of the main characters.

Ushgarak
Their role as observers HAS been stated by GL.

And it was clearly presented in the OT that none of these people had ever seen the droids before; I always had the idea that Leia had told R2 'You are Obi-Wan's now; go find him'.

You can twist things to make it fit the PT, but that's not really the point.

Ratcat
I think this all lays good ground for the arguement for watching the series 4-6, 1-3.

Also, I think that the droids will definately become more apparent as II & III are released.

queeq
That is true of course.

However... (there's always an "however" big grin )... Ush is absolutely right that now we need extra story elements in the films just to solve the continuity problems. And since they are, nevertheless, minor characters (though maybe not as minor as Fett, but there's no change in their characters which makes them fairly shallow, which is fine for the purpose they serve), it 's a bit lame to use precious storytime on details. We'll have to see how GL solves it of course, but I fear it may not always serve the story telling process.

That being said, if R2 and 3PO are fun in the next two and not as lame as in TPM, they're very welcome to be on board. But I do stick to my opinion that we didn't NEED them for the PT.

And KJ, if you are saying Vader and Anakin are two different characters then you are wrong. For two reasons. 1. Who's the guy who dies at the end of ROTJ in the black suit: Vader or Anakin? Or both?
2. GL has said SW is the story of Anakin. How can that be if they are "totally different" characters. They are one and the same, that's what the entire saga is about!

King Jedi
roll eyes (sarcastic) Queeg they are different characters in the context that you said.
You said that Anakin survives all six films storywise and therefore gives continuity. He doesn't. In the PT we follow Anakin Skywaker, hero, great Jedi, chosen one, lover of Amidala, good guy(who goes bad).

In the O.T we see Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, kills people for the sake of it, big scary dude in black, major villain.

It's still Anakin Skywalker but completley different from the one in the PT. Therefore he doesn't give the film continuity because it's like a different character. When you see Anakin in the PT you are meant to associate with him because he's the good guy. When you see him in the OT you are meant to be scared of him.

So the audiance can't use him to link the two trilogies together because after EP3 the hero is gone and replaced by Vader. We no longer follow Anakins journey. We get a new hero to follow - Luke. Only at the end of ROTJ do we get Anakin back.

R2 and 3PO are the only characters who are in all six films, around for all the important events and stay pretty much the same.



Ush, I never said R2 and 3PO were observers in TPM. But they were still around for the most important events which I think will lead to them getting there old role in Ep2 and 3.

Ushgarak
Well, maybe. But I get the feeling GL is going with a different direction on this one. It's a fundamentally more complex tale which defreats a standard narrative struture like they used to have. I think. Maybe it really will have changed in Ep. II, which will make TPM very much the odd one out of the films, a true prequel indeed.

BTW, I rather think Obi-Wan is the main continuity character, if you are discounting Anakin...

queeq
I don't get where you get this view on Anakin, KJ. You are so coming from an OT popint of view. Here's the deal:

1. Young kid Anakin, promising Jedi, grave danger in training
2. Young adult Jedi Anakin, powerful Jedi with some dark tendencies
3. Adult Jedi Anakin, turns bad, gets hurt, in dark outfit.
4. Older Anakin/Vader in dark suit doomed forever, new hero rises in his son Luke
5. Anakin/Vader finally meets son, reveals his identity
6. Adult Anakin/Vader turns back to the light side due to his son, dies.

THAT, my dear KJ, is the story of SW in six episodes. Nothing more, nothing less. Lucas said so, this is it: ANakin's story and a crucial part of Anakin's story is that he turns to evil. I doubt we will see an abrupt change between Episode 3 and 4. It will be quite natural. I'm certain that we'll see Anakin don his black suit in Ep3. Why else the breathing at the end of the credits of TPm. Everything builds towards Anakin turning into Vader, that's what this ENTIRE story is about.

And the part of the droids changes withing this story. That just strikes me as odd and unnecessary..... so far.

sand person no. 10
what breathing?

jedi212guy
In Nute Gunray voice, "I was not aware of any breathing." cool

yerssot
in the same voice:
But we must move quickly to disrupt all breathing down there

Ushgarak
At the end of the TPM credits you can hear Vader breathing.

queeq
That's why I always tell people to watch ALL the credits. You never know if there's an Easter Egg there.

yerssot
Are there any other easter eggs in any movie with the credits?

King Jedi
roll eyes (sarcastic) Queeg, do you think I don't know the SW story? I'm not thick. I know what you said in your post is right but that's not what we are talking about here.

You said that Anakin can be used as a character for the audience to follow and see the story from his standpoint. We can't. Because his veiwpoint changes from the PT to the OT.

It's the same character but he changes so much that it's immpossible for him to have the same role in both trilogies.
In the PT he is our hero. In the OT the villain.

That's what I love about the prequels. We are going to follow Anakin's journey. Cheer him on when he's in battle and all of that.
But you don't do that with Vader in the OT. Instead, you cheer Luke on so that he can turn Anakin back.

To the audience Anakin represents the good guy in the PT.
But he represents the bad guy in the OT (until the end).

So you can't have him taking you through the story because he's completly different in both trilogies.

Vader in ANH isn't the cute, smart kid from TPM. And if you are trying to say otherwise then you should watch the films again.

In the PT we see things from Anakins perspective (or we're going to).
In the OT we see it from Lukes.

R2 and 3PO are the only ones who don't change and are there to take us through the story.

Does anyone else agree?

Ushgarak
Well, I'll reserve judgment until I se their roles in the next film. I still think Obi-Wan does the job fine.

King Jedi
If the prequels were never made then you're right. Obi-Wan fills in the gaps for Luke and the audience about what happened to Anakin.

But after the PT is made we will know that so Obi-Wan isn't really talking to us anymore He's just there to explain it to Luke.

queeq
I think you are forgetting that our perception of Vader in the OT will change with the PT. THere he was just the villain and Luke the main character. Now with the PT, the perception of Vader is much different. It will not only be "What happens to Luke?" but also or even moreso "What will happen to Anakin? Will he ever turn good again?".

And I also disagree with Anakin being the hero of the PT. He's gonna be an ambiguous character, much different from Luke who's basically good. Anakin goes out to slaughter Tuskens out of revenge for him mom ( the reshoot in England seems to comfirm this scene is DEFINATELY in). We see him defying the Council. And in Ep3 we will see him turn and he'll be evil for at least half the movie. So in ANH his story continues.... In the end, Luke will be the only true and good hero, but it will be Anakin's story. Him wearing another suit does not change that SW is Anakin's story and not Luke's. THat is what has changed now GL made the PT's.

And the droids change too. THey have all these experiences, yet at the beginning of ANH they know nothing of what happened before and they're plain old droids again with a very different part in the story.

King Jedi
I know it's Anakins story, but we don't see it from his veiwpoint. Not after Ep3 anyway. Then we see it from Lukes point of veiw.
So the way we see Anakin is different. He is no longer the main character for us to follow - Luke is.

The droids are the two innocents caught up in everything. Watching, without having any real control over the events that take place. Just like the audience.

Jar Jar took that role in TPM and I hope the droids get it in Ep2 and 3.

queeq
We lose the POV of Anakin, because he's considered "lost". But it's still his story. After Ep3, we will forever look upon Vader with different eyes. It will no longer be "just" Luke's story. So for continuation, Vader and Anakin will be seen by all of us as one and the same.

And your description of R2 and 3PO there sort of proves that these droids had a very forced role in Ep1. If GL does change back to their observer role in Ep 2, than that also proves the droids' role in Ep1 was redundant.

You see, the thing is with the peasants of The Hidden Fortress and the droids in the OT, they are the lowest of the low. The story is told from their PERSPECTIVE, not from their background. Kurosawa and Lucas did this to create some way of identification with a story that factually is quite far away from us. None of lives in outer space a long time ago, no one lives in feodal Japan as nobility. But simple characters have always been there. Yet, these characters are minor. And most of all, we don't need to know where they came from, what their past is. All that is redundant info, since it is not their story. They serve only a purpose, they are not a goal by themselves.

King Jedi
You're agreeing with me. After EP3 we no longer see thing from Anakins perspective because his perspective changes. So we can't see things from his point of veiw through all six film.

When Anakin is lost to Obi-Wan and Yoda he is also lost to us. It's one of the most genius things about the prequels.

R2 and 3PO didn't have there usual role in TPM but they still had to be introduced. Maybe it's they way they were introduced that you didn't like. I loved it but it I would have liked it just as much if they had been introduced another way. B

But they had to be introduced because they are key to how we see the later films.

Jabba is an example of a redundant OT characte in TPM. But the droids are important and had to be introduced.

yerssot
Why is Jabba considert important? He has a rol in OT that was important but that was it

King Jedi
I'm saying that he isn't important.

yerssot
Why did they introduce him them?

King Jedi
I don't know. That's what I'm saying. It was pointless. There was no need for him to be there but the droids had to be introduced somehow because they are important.

But the Jabba scene was funny.

Dim
I don't know it kind of helps to see that Jabba really is a powerful character and someone to be reckoned with.. It makes you understand that there's alot of attention on him and you can understand why Han was so worried about repaying him.

LanceWindu
True

queeq
Well, KJ I am agreeing that focus changes, yes, of course. Anakin is no longer the hero, Luke is. It's still the same character though, the very same person we followed for three movies by then.

It's not just the way the droids were introduced, it's that they were introduced at all. Total redundancy so far and GL really has to pull off some great filmmaking to justify them in the PT. IMHO OC.

yerssot
I think that the grey 3PO and the grey plate on his leg are connected, in the 70-80's GL said that 3PO was assembled from different droids

King Jedi
Queeg I still think the droids HAVE to be in the PT.

And Lucas could have made far more money from merchandise if he had introduced two brand new cooler characters so he must have plans for R2 and 3PO to take us through EP2 and 3.

yerssot
Sure they had to be in the PT, because they've seen alot of wars, even the Clone Wars , see ANH: "Thanks the maker" scene
And if the Clone Wars is in EpII, R2 and 3PO had to be in EpII.
So why not introduce him in EpI??

queeq
Okay, KJ you can HAVE them in the PT. See! There they are. big grin

I just don't agree with you, that's all. But maybe ep2 and 3 will change my mind.

King Jedi
I'm sure it will. And I'm 100% sure that you will like TPM better after you see AOTC. Some of the scenes I didn't like about TPM are already made better by what I know about AOTC.

queeq
AOTC will not make TPM better. TPM is flawed because of cinematographical faults, not so much because of the story. I liked TPM a lot better after seeing the Phantom Edit.

King Jedi
It DOES make it better. It already has for me and my freinds and some of them hated TPM. After finding out what happens in AOTC you look at some scenes differently. Give it a chance. You've only seen the begginning of the story. When you see the middle and end it WILL make it better.



Like what?

Ushgarak
Well, the lousy direction at the end, for a start... however, I have a feeling that queeq can give you a huge long list here.

Mind you, I would be highly surprised if I thought The Phantom Edit improves it in any way for me. But then, I like it already. But then, it COULD have been better. Also, I doubt if the later films will improve it for me. But then, a prequel does need to be judged against the films that come after. But then, it wasn't a great idea to make TPM so dependant on unreleased films in the first place...

Ok, I think I have made my position clear...

queeq
There are many reasons for TPM being faulty. And it's not like I don't know the story, I know it. We know the beginning, bits (crucial bits) of the middle and we know the end. The movie itself has some cinematographical errors. A major recut might save it. That being said, I like the story, it has everything for the rest of the story, I just think it wasn't told very well.

yerssot
You still didn't say a thing!
You said where they are: beging middle and end
but not WHAT was faulty

King Jedi
Queeq I'm not saying that TPM is a perfect film. It's not. But I've never found any complaint about the film that can't be explained one way or another.(Jar Jar, Anakins Yipee! etc.). But I'm just interested in the faults you think are there.

queeq
Man, you want the whole list? That's a bit too much, but I'll give you a few to chew on.

1. Story redundancy. There's a lot of sequences and dialogue that slow down the story and have no bearing at all on the story. One example is the Bongo trip.

2. Rushed. I think TPM appears very rushed. Especially when the bad guys are involved, they hardly finish the last line in their scene and whoosh... a wipe.

3. Woody acting, I thought most acting was not very vibrant IMHO. Even by my favourite actors Neeson and McGregor.

4. Disney look. Gungan-battle droid battle.

5. BAd acting by Jake Lloyd. Many oopses and yippee's. And that's our future Vader.

There are a lot more things. But don't get me wrong, I'm not a basher.

sand person no. 10
1. The bongo trip was important, remember qui gons line about letting the force guide them

2. Lucas has years too prepare the film , i doubt it was rushed, i don't really recall too much time being spent with the bad guys in the first three films

3. MCGregor was supposed to act like that too heightem his arrogance

4. I thought the gungan battle was in line with the appearance of the rest of the film

5. Can't be bothered with the JL argument again

heres a question. what would you have liked to have happened if your so disenchanted with the film?

Dim
Since queeq is now off on vacation for two weeks I'll kind of stick up for him. I don't think he's disenchanted but simply looking at it from a craftsman's point of view...

sand person no. 10
very admirable roll eyes (sarcastic)

yerssot
But you have to admit that does yippies and wizards were too much

Ushgarak
McGregor wasn't on top form, but God help Queeq if he knocks Liam's acting again...

BTW, no matter what way you put it, that film was MASSIVELY rushed! Crumbs, the first twenty minutes was almost a sensory overload. Things didn;t settle down until they got to Tatooine.

King Jedi
It's meant to be fast paced. ANH has the exact same pacing when they are on board the death star.

Queeq's complaints.

1. The Bongo trip was important because it introduced Jar Jar and showed what Qui-Gon was like. He was always trying to settle Jar Jar down and tell him that it was going to be all right. There isn't any other scenes like this between them. It also showed the type of world that the Gungans lived. If they lived in some beautiful and safe place then it would make it harder to believe that they had a huge army and were warriors. But by showing the dangers of there enviroment it made there toughness more beleivable.

2. A didn't think it was rushed but it was fast paced. But I don't think that's a bad thing.

3. Liam Neeson was great, Ewan didn't have much to do but was good in the scenes he had. Lucas said that EP2 will be Obi-Wans film.

4. Disney is Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. Not armies of droids trying to destroy an entire race. The whole look to that battle was very fantasy like which was great.

5. When Hitler was a kid he didn't go around kicking dogs in the street. He was a normal kid and so was Anakin. If Anakin was bad in TPM then you have no Ep2 and 3. He had to be innocent, sweet, and kind. That's what Jake Lloyd did brilliantly.

Sand Person No 10 has a good point. Nobody ever gives any ideas as to how they would make it better.

Ushgarak
Actually, Sand person is entirely wrong because part of Queeq's point is that someone made The Phantom Edit which he DOES think is a lot better for having addressed some of tnose problems. I will reserve my judgment...

And no WAY has ANYTHING in Star Wars been quite as 'brisk' as the start of TPM!

King Jedi
Well actually Sand Person No 10 is right. The Phantom Edit wasn't constructive critisism. It was a merc editing a film for other mercs.

ANH on the Death Star is just as faced paced. The only thing that makes it seem longer is the scenes of Obi-Wan sneaking around. But these scens are over in seconds.

yerssot
Now what the h*ll is the phantom edit???

Ushgarak
Hey, I am not commneting on the quality if The Phantom Edit, KJ. But you have to admit that this is CERTAINLY a case where someone has made criticisms, suggested solutions and then actually DID them! As Sand person's comment was that no-one had tried come up with a better idea, I think it is pretty clear that TPE proves that wrong, whetehr it is actually any good or not.

Yerssot, The Phantom Edit is an attempt by an unknown editor to re-edit TPM for the better. It has become quite a peice of fan lore. I know that queeq had been desperate to get a hold of it for some time.

King Jedi
I still wouldn't call it constructive. It's annoyed the hell out of most fans. There was a poll on MWorld and 92% said that re-editing a film to you're own liking was wrong.

So I wouldn't say that the Phantom Edit was a better idea. Not to most fans anyway.

Ushgarak
Sure, fair enough. But the principle that the guy tried is what we were referring to.

jedi212guy
I am interested in seeing it. How could I find a copy?

Jameous Woodshire
Well annoying as he was Jar-Jar has his place in SW.

But I also think that if you want to re-cut anything for your own enjoyment, it's fine. The Phantom Edit should only be looked at that way. It's not GL's and thus not SW.

There are alot of films I can think of that could use a re-cut. (Pearl Harbor comes to mind) but only for the indvidual's enjoyment.

What I'd like to see is a Dead Men Dont Wear Plaid version of SW. That would be great, IMO.

sand person no. 10
anyone can recut a film to satisty their own needs. you can find a copy of the phantom edit on a file sharig site i.e kazaa.com, what people seem to be forgetting is that star wars is george lucas's story, its difficult to satisfy everybody's idea about how sw's should start, let alone finnish, i am not satisfied with the finnish of rotj and the whole sw's story but it isn't my story and so i have to accept it.

i could probably rewrite tpm and rotj but i doubt it would fit into atoc and all of the other films, the sw's story is at least 6 stories long, it has to start somehwhere, just because it falls short of peoples ideas i don't think we should start attacking the story until it is finished. i'm still waiting for peoples ideas about how ep1 should have started. Once we've seen all six films

Then attack away!

Ushgarak
I think the specific difference in this case is that people thoughtb the direction and editing of TPM was its weakness point; once fixed by TPE it becomes a much better film without removing its quintessential Star Wars nature.

Don't blame me; I haven't seen the darn thing. But I think someone should sitck up for queeq's point of view. He seems to think it is much better. Also he is very interested in that sort of thing because of his job.

Dim
Yes, I tend to blow off people when the come up with the attitude that it could be done better..but in this case I really feel like if queeq says it's better than it probably is.

King Jedi
Well I've seen it and it's my job as well and I can tell you it's not better.

If you want to re-edit a film and keep it to yourself then fine. My dad did that with ANH for me when I was a kid. He cut all the fight scenes together. But selling it is wrong.

And what really gets me is when someone talks about it as if it's the REAL TPM. No one has done it hear yet, but give it time.

Dim
Oh, I agree with you about selling it..that's a no no.. and for the most part I don't think you should reedit someone's work. It's part of their artistic work and should be respected..but I"m also for improvement.. I would like to see LFL do a recut version..maybe someday way way in the future..

King Jedi
But what about all the people that loved TPM? The people that went to see it again and again? The people that have made the DVD one of the most anticipated ever?

That's the problem I have with this. The people who edited this film and sold it are unbelievably selfish.


Dim, you could try and improve every film but it just leads to more problems, like the Special Editions did. I don't know anyone who like EVERY change in the SE.

yerssot
The SE was just a way to get more money for TPM, AND there are some scenes that you see it is fake BIG TIME

King Jedi
Did you read about the Spanish Phantom Edit? The idiot cut out the scene where Qui-Gon and Maul are seperated by the energy doors because he said it made the fight more dramatic! That was one of the coolest scenes in the whole film! Qui-Gon gets down and meditates while Maul prowls around like a caged animal. It rocked.

And he cut out the oos and aaahs from Anakin while he was flying the Naboo ship so that it looked like Anakin knew what he was doing. He didn't know what he was doing! That's the whole point of him acting like that when he was flying the ship. He didn't know how to fly it!!!!

Then he completly cut out Jar Jar from the end battle. So Jar Jar just dissapears without an explanation at the end of the film.

Leave it to the professionals kids! mad

yerssot
You can edit what you want but PLEASE leave it for yourself!!

Ushgarak
Ok, I am an easy going man, but anyone who cuts out the bit where the 3 combatants are seperated by the fields must DIE!

What the three of them did spoke volumes about the personality; Obi-Wan's impatience, Qui-Gon's calmness, Maul's arrogant wait before the kill.

King Jedi
I agree with you 100%. That scene was genuis. And it made it more dramatic because when the doors open again, the music stops. Meaning that you just hear the clash of Maul and Qui-Gon's sabres before he dies.

I'm now starting to think that these fan edits are a good idea, because they are going to make people appreciate the real version.

darthyogi
I would even consider going as far as saying that scene was the only one in the entire movie that showed anything even approaching characterisation. But that would horribly unfair and open to abuse. wink

It's the key scene in the film, IMHO - the Duel of the Fates, as the theme is named, the decisive moment where Anakin's destiny is entirely in the hands QuiGon, ObiWan and Maul. Excellent stuff.

sand person no. 10
i don't think that fight put anakins fate in the hands of those 3, i suspect anakin would've turned anyway, even with qgj training him. It was probably his destiny. but it was the best scene in the film.

darthyogi
"i don't think that fight put anakins fate in the hands of those 3" = confused confused confused

If Maul hadn't died the Emperor wouldn't have been able to take a new apprentice and Anakin wouldn't have been pursued as a Sith. There's his fate in the hand of the three duellers... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ironic really, and it makes you wonder if the Emperor sent Maul to his death so that he could approach Anakin...

Ushgarak
Nah. I think Anakin was totally unexpected in EVERYONE'S plans. Qui-Gon got the ball, but dropped it. Obi-Wan will do the same; Palpy will be the one who makes it stick.

queeq
Okay, MESA BACK. Thanks for those who stuck up for me in my absence.

I want to clear one thing here, one BIG thing. TPE was NOT, I stress NOT, sold to anyone. This was a disappointed fan who did this in his spare time, sent a copy to Lucas and it ended up somehow on the net.

I have re-edited documentaries of other acclaimed directors myself (WITH their approval) and I know a little about how cutting or re-cutting can actually improve someone's vision. IMHO I think the Phantom Editor did a great job. He cut story redundancy and improved Anakin's character. No more Oopses, "This is not good", Yippee's. We get a confident young pilot with a slightly discernible darkish side to him (they did a hell of a job on the Jedi Council scene).

Now, I'm not saying it's flawless. I have my doubts about certain things that were cut, but on the whole I do think it's a lot better, better overall pace and more to the point. The Bongo scene is cut entirely except for departure and arrival. And since JarJar becomes a side character, the scene looses its relevance and frankly I can't say I miss JarJar. There's a bit of him left, enough to make him a character but enough was removed to make him not so annoying.

The Spanish cut is indeed nonsense. It's one of the best scenes in the film, that with the sliding doors. I do wonder if the timing was correct though, that bothered me a bit. QGJ and Maul get almost entirely to the end from the first time they close while fighting. OB1 runs (!) when the doors open and he doesn't make it to the end. Of course the separation was necessary but it does look a tad awkward.

Ushgarak
I think we can forgive any timing irregularities in the name of good drama.

Well, this thing certainly sounds interesting...

queeq
And mind you, all this guy had was the VHS. I also recut docs from the Master with no additional material. It requires quite a bit of creativity to re-edit that. I mean, you can't make a shot a tad longer. You can't make other transitions like the SW wipes, because the original cuts don't allow enough time for that. So there are a lot of restrictions. Considering that and what could have been done with ALL the material available, I'm sure TPM could have been a lot better. I mean, storywise all the ingredients are there. But which ones are relevant, what is eye candy and how much do you need of either of them.

King Jedi
Queeq, Lucas had the best people working on this film. Everything that was in the film was there for a reason.There were plenty of things I didn't like at first and plenty of things I would have cut. I didn't understand the whole "hand-maiden" thing but now I know about AOTC, I can see why they were there. NOBODY can edit that film any better. Mainly because they don't know why certain decisions were taken.

Lucas was editing this film with the other two in mind. A guy editing TPM in his house doesn't. Therefore he just edits it to HIS liking.

Making Anakin more confident is a perfect example. In TPM Anakin didn't know how to fly the ship, that's why he was so nervous and erratic. If he was confident then you'd have to ask "How does he know how to fly the ship?".

Giving him more darkness is another bad idea. In TPM Anakin doesn't have any REAL darkness in him. Not more than anyone else anyway. As Qui-Gon says "He gives without any thought of reward". He's meant to be the perfect little kid. Nothing bad happens to him in TPM so why would he have darkness and anger?
He's just left his mother but she's still alive. He has NO reason to be angry.


You say that you didn't miss Jar Jar. That's fine. But he will be in AOTC and Ep3. Isn't that going to seem strange when in the Phantom Edit he is reduced to a minor character? Jar Jar will have an important part to play in the next two films whether you like him or not.


I only saw the PE once but all I did was want to watch the real version, because in my opinion the Phantom Edit misses the point completly.

queeq
Maybe he had the best people working for him, but TPM is definately NOT the best of all four SW films. So that didn't do the trick.
Of course people can edit it better. Everything can always be done better.
Mind you, a first cut usually amounts to about3-4 hours. So they cut a lot. And sometimes you "mean" to say stuff, but if it doesn't work out well in the down cut version, you might consider dropping it all together. That's the "kill your darlings" principle.

And I don't think the TPE is affecting the story of the next two. Anakin is still Anakin. JarJar is still JarJar but a bit more a credible character to become Senator. I doubt we'll see the goober fish and the sando aquamonster again, so no loss there. He just made a better pace, and this guy is a great SW fan with the OT imprinted in his brain. His work showed he knows his stuff, it was NOT amateur work.




OB1 quote from ANH: "When I met your father, he was an insecure, fumbling boy who did his first steps in flying, who just had some beginner's luck." OOOOPPPPSSSS. No that's not it, it's: "When I met your father, he WAS ALREADY A GREAT PILOT!!!!!!!!!!!" The TP editor made OB1 be correct.
He just knows how to fly a ship, he was the ONLY human to fly a pod racer, he picks up stuff easily and Olie told him how a space ship works. ("You catch on pretty quick."wink Anakin is special at piloting and in the Force. TPM failed to show that.

And the TPE did not show "more darkness", it showed a bit more how the seeds of his darkness were sown. 1. By leaving his mother (fear of loosing her etc.) 2. By being treated insensitively by the JC. This is where the seeds for his anger are sown. It has to happen sometime. And it's not so direct, no so explicit, it's just vaguely there.



Not important, minor. Everyone has said that so far, JarJar has a minor role. Much like Chewie, he wasn't an indepth character, but he was always there. Same with JarJar, he's there, but he's a minor character, so that ties in nicely with episode 2. What of all the things cut from JarJar do we really need to see or know for his functioning as a senator? That he's no longer a fumbling idiot? If he isn't that so much in the first place, then there is no problem either.



I don't understand why.

yerssot
Jar Jar is also in EpIII? How do you know about that?

queeq
Good point.

King Jedi
Ahmed Best has signed for three films.


I never said it was but how can anyone edit the film better than the man who made it? He knows exaclty why everything was the way it was. A fan in his house editing doesn't.



Better for you. Not better for the story.



But they're not the Anakin and Jar Jar that Lucas wrote. Who knows what Jar Jar will be like in AOTC? Maybe he will be a really really bad Senator. He might mess it up completly. A tradgedy might happen because of him. It's not likely but if it does happen then it makes changing him in TPM pointless. Lucas knows why Jar Jar and Anakin were like that, this guy doesn't.



I don't know why people didn't like this sequence. I thought it looked amazing. And it was there to show why the Gungans had this army. They lived in a very dangerous enviroment. Lucas confirmed this in one of the TPM books. Take this scene out and you have to ask why the Gungans had an army?


At NO point in TPM was Anakin ANY of these things. He flew the ship didn't he? By the time he is flying out of the Control Ship he knows EXACTLY what he is doing. Of course at first he didn't know what to do but would anybody? He still refused to go back when R2 suggested it and wasn't insecure or scared at any point during the battle.
In that scene Anakin was confident, excited, eager and flew into the battle without really thinking about it. All things that lead to his downfall.

In the "Making Of TPM" book there is a pretty big section about Lucas writing the script and one of the things he keeps going on about is that he had to make it beleivable that a 9 year old kid could fly the ship.
That's why he gave him R2 and the auto pilot. That's why the scenes with Ric Ollie were added at one of the pick-up shoots. And that's why he he made Anakin not able to fly at first. But by the end of the battle Anakin has complete control over that ship. Showing what a great pilot he was.

Are you saying that because he's Anakin Skywalker he should just have to look at a ship and know how to fly it?
Being the only one who finished the pod-race at only 9 years old proves that Obi-Wans statement in the OT was correct.


His darkness is vaguely there in TPM and it's far more subtle than the PE. In TPM it's the other characters who sense the danger which makes it much more dramatic than Anakin showing it. Anakin has no idea what leaving his mother behind will do to him. As he says "What does that have to do with anything?".He's going on this great journey and has NO idea what lies ahead. That makes it much more dramatic than if he was already scared and angry in TPM. We know what's going to happen, the other characters in TPM know what's going to happen but Anakin doesn't. That's brilliant. I can't really remember specific scenes in the PE that made it more obvious than the real TPM?

The Phantom Edit misses the point because it changed some characters and made some things less important than it should be. TPM is Very subtle but the PE seemed to be more direct and I thought it made it more for kids. But some of the cuts were okay. Like Tarpals proding Jar Jar with the stick and saying "how rude". I didn't miss things like that but I still think it's pointless.

queeq
Looks like we disagree on many counts. You think some things are extremely important of which I wonder if they are at all. And I agree that TPM is very subtle, in fact a bit too subtle for my taste. Let me tell you why. Here in Holland SW is not a big thing. the movie did well but it's not huge or anything. Almost everyone I knopw who saw the film (all non-SW fans) had one reply after seeing it: the story was very shallow, but there are some great scenes and effects!

Now what does that mean? I disagreed with them on the story being shallow, it's one of the most complex stories of all films so far. But it's told with so much subtlety that few people see what happening. We are all well introduced to all the ins and outs of the story, we know what it's about, we know how it all fits (for the most part). But an average viewer DOESN'T and that's one of my main problems with TPM. The story is told so subtly that most of it is not grasped, doesn't help people to feel for the characters (SW fans excluded) and that is why I think the story is fine, but not the way TPM tells it. IMHO the TPE achieves better results.


A few things about the fish scene:
1. yes it did look great, nice eyecandy
2. the same things happens twice: big fish eaten by bigger fish
3. it doesn't mean anything really
4. Why would one need to explain WHY a people have an army?(and where do blue bouncing balls come into play when it comes to fighting aqua sandomonsters?) I would think that if you have an army, you have something to defend against, whatever it is. If this enemy does not have a vital part in the story, who cares. Hitchcocking rule applies here: don't explain too much, it's boring. And this scene is redundant in that sense, IMHO OC.

Ushgarak
The Gungans have an army to defend against the sea monsters?

(Qucik attack of common sense- their weaponry did seem designed to work on land, though...)

But WOW! There should have been a sequence where Otoh Gunga was attacked by the big fish things! And Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon could have aided the defence and thereby earned the confidence of the Gungans. This could have replaced the bongo sequence (while being just as impressive) and also provided a bit of variety from the continuous battle-droid slicing we had in the film (I remember thinking after 20 minutes first time I watched- Ok! I get the point! The Jedi are better...).

Well, just an idea. But I think it would have been cool.

I'm still not sure where I stand on this (having still not seen it), however, I am not sure if we can make a blanket declaration that it is impossible to improve someone's work just because you don't know the full vision of it. As anyone who works in movies or books should know, some dispassionate objectivty can do a piece real favours.

I will certainly give TPE, if I ever see it, every chance to prove itself and not dislike it just because GL did not do it.

yerssot
That sequence was to show that the trip was dangerous and they did it because it was their mission. Nothing major.

queeq
Nothing major indeed. And that it was dangerous was clear from the moment the Republic ship got blown to bits. So it does reek of redundancy.

yerssot
Yah, it does reek of redundada
(tip to myself: buy a BETTER dictionary)

Ushgarak
He means that scene was unnecessary because whatever point it was making had already been made.

yerssot
k, thanx.
Yeah it wasn't necessary

sand person no. 10
posted by queeq

"OB1 quote from ANH: "When I met your father, he was an insecure, fumbling boy who did his first steps in flying, who just had some beginner's luck." OOOOPPPPSSSS. No that's not it, it's: "When I met your father, he WAS ALREADY A GREAT PILOT!!!!!!!!!!!" The TP editor made OB1 be correct. "

As far as ob1 knew, anakin was a great pilot, he won the race and saved the ship and he also blew up the droid ship at the end, in ob1's vision anakin was a great pilot because ob1 wasn't at any of these events and only had the actual results of the events to rate him on

King Jedi
I agree with that.

Queeq were not going to agree on this so I'm going to bow out of this one.



Ush Lucas himself said it in on of the books. It's not the "making of TPM" book but I think it was one of the visual dictionaries. He said that the Gungans had weapons, sheilds and an army because the live in a very dangerous enviroment in Otah Gunga.


Common sense says "Why did this peacfull people with NO milatary enemy have an army?"
The answer is to protect them from the sea creatures as Lucas said. How do you know that their energy spheres didn't work under water?


We can and I have. smile

yerssot
Good point, I didn't knew the fishes could swim in the city. For what are the purple things than?

Ushgarak
Ok, we can't make any such blanket directions and be in any way correct about them, KJ...

Those enrgy spheres were fired by projectile weapons and burst on impact. Unless they were self-propelled (and they weren't), they would be USELESS underwater.

But I wasn't disagreeing with you, KJ; I just thought it would have been cool if we had seen such a battle.

queeq
No, we won't agree, I think, KJ, which is fine. Consensus sucks. big grin

But I do think that GL suffers from overexplanation on some counts. I mean, I personally couldn't care less why one people has an army and another not. Why do France, Germany, Italy and Austria have armies and Switzerland who lies right in the middle of these countries NOT have an army? Different philosophies. We already know the SW Universe is a dangerous place, it's perfectly normal to have some kind of army. We don't NEED these explanations.
Besides, from JarJar comments on having an army while on Corscant we know that the Gungans feel strongly about warrior status, maybe that's part of their philosophy. That explains more than enough THAT and in a way WHY they have an army. I don't need a double bill of eating fish to explain that to me.

yerssot
Switzerland DOES have an army
and the Naboo is a very friendly people, even the police are made from volunteers!
The Gungans say that going to the core is bad-boming so that could indicate that they sometimes need weapons when they are in the sea.

btw: hey! I'm over my 1000 post!!!!

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