religious ties

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



mindbugaling
lets see, looking at the matrix in whole, i think theres about 4 religious ties to the stroyline

first of all-christianity A BIG ONE, neo is the jesus christ character for saving the unbelievers of the matrix, morpheus is the john the baptist character because hes awaiting the second coming, trinity the god like character, ressurecting the jesus character, cypher is the judas iscariot character for betraying the chosen one.

then theres hinduism- the rebirth into another life.

i know some of these topics have been discussed before, but i think we can go a little bit further with

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/starwars.gif

forumcrew
there are lots more specifics with referneces to parts of the bible

burlyman
what about judaism and gnosticism

mindbugaling
shoot! eek!

burlyman
well, i dont actually know, but i know there is some..

sifer, jedi, ush, omega ??

mindbugaling
gnosticism.... hmmm, iv never heard of that one before.

EyeMakeMovies
i forget exactly where it is in reloaded, but neo is wlking through a marketplace... the camera pans over several items, a picture of jesus being one of them

burlyman
yeh on his way to seraph

JediHDM
I really can't think of any for Judaism, except for the obvious Zion and "Look for the savior; he's coming soon" ideas...And i haven't studied Gnosticism hardly at all, so i'm gonna have to leave that to Sifer or someone else...

audioheem
There's a ship called the Gnosis stick out tongue

sum1butno1
Is that ship in one of the movies? If so, which one?

JediHDM
no, its not, but it is mentioned in Reloaded. "i have a son, Jacob, on the Gnosis..."

Ímmes
Well Judaism seems to me to have the biggest influence on the script. Apart from the Zion - Sion similarity, Neo doesn't look like Jesus, he is rather the expected messiah. People believe in him, in his rebirth, and treat him just as the Jews would likely treat the messiah.

There are two other things though, even though I am no expert on this film, and this might be quite obvious; the first is the location where Zero-One is founded, the middle east, where probably Zion dwells underground. One can say that all three celestial religions are founded there, but it seems to me more to be connected with Judaism, rather than Christianity or Muslim. I can't explain why.

The second is the reference given by the name of the Nebuchadnezzar hoovercraft, which is, to my understanding, the most powerful reference to Judaism. As you might already know, Nebuchadnezzar used to be a king in the ancient Sumer, who conquered Judea and brought them in masses to Babylon, his Capital. Now, the ship with the same name, takes the people from their oppressors and brings them back to Zion (Sion). Quite a powerful reference I think.

mindbugaling
you set a good point, although....... i really don tthink that neo LOOKING like jesus has to do anything with it, but its a thought.

neo_dragon
how can anyone say what christ looked like? all the portraits of him look like he is of the same ethnic group as the artist, if he were painted by an italian artist, he looks italian, and so on. the truth is we don't know. so why even bring up the statement that neo doesn't look like christ? think people, the resemblances to christ were personality attributes and abilities, not physical features.

mindbugaling
exactly.

Ímmes
I'm sorry, that was a misexpression because of my poor English I suppose. By the statement of "looking like Christ" I obviously didn't refer to his physical appearance. I refered to his social role.

Christians are in no expectation of a messiah, but Judeans are. They expect his return, just as Zioners expect the return of the one, that's what I meant.

The One Himself
When Jesus Christ was crucified he said "It's finished"
At the end of the SuperBrawl Deus Ex Machina says: "It's Done".

Ímmes
I had to post another message, sorry for this, but I don't think the religious message in this film is as strong as in Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings.

In Star Wars, the "The Force" is a definitive celestial religious target, there's no wonder some Australians choose to baptize their children as Jedi Knights. And in Lord of the Rings, Gandalf is a druidic / shamanic figure. This is a broad category of similar religions, at pre-celestial ages, that worship natural powers. I don't mean to offend, on the contrary, if I find a Gandalf religion I might join it myself.

There's no religion in the Matrix, it isn't even interested in a religious message, its purpose is beyond that. There's a very ... very strong argument, and it calls to all people, without splitting them into good ones and bad ones. Many people think that they may actually be the prisoners of a Matrix, and in fact we are. Not as in the same analogy in the film of course. But all civilized men are slaves of causality. We are given a purpose, we are shown a path which leads there. We learn not to depart from the path at unwanted crossroads, if we do, we are punished by uncertainty and mostly failure. If we obey we are rewarded with satisfaction. And in time we become defenders of a system, of which true nature and purpose we are ignorant.

This is one piece of damn courageous message. I'm telling you, in more than 99% of the states that exist and have existed throughout history, the delivery of such a message would require a death penalty.

JediHDM
Ommes> yes, the purpose was not to show that one religion is more correct than another, but that Religion, Philosophy, etc are integral parts of humanity, and perhaps your beliefs will come to fruition, perhaps not, but if you work to achieve your beliefs, then good things can happen...

dragonpisces272
yes, good things can happen...like if you have a "good christian heart", then you would pray to the Lord, and if something bountiful happens, then you would say it came from Him because you believed. Our world is some kind of matrix, but not in the literal sense of the movie...

and a little something about Gnosticism - a pre-Christian and early Christian religious movement teaching that salvation comes by learning esoteric spiritual truths that free humanity from the material world, believed in this movement to be evil.

mindbugaling
ommes: the christian belief DOES expect a messiah to, in respect, return to the christians, the so called 'second coming' of the messiah is reffered to alot throughout the Bible.

mindbugaling
i think when morpheus gave the speach about the ONE returning to the matrix and that meaning the 'salvation' of Zion it sounded alot like he was talking about a 'second coming.' when neo returned to the matrix and found himself to be the one, the second coming occured. this is just like christianity in a sense, for the christians believe the ONE (the messiah) will return one day, just like morpheus thought.

Ímmes
Ref: ... the christian belief DOES expect a messiah too ...

Are you serious? I mean, I am interested in religious subjects, although I don't see any proximity of any of them with myself, but if this is true, then I would have ignored a a very important aspect of Christianity.

Could it be true for one of the churches, catholic or protestant, or do all churches expect the messiah?

mindbugaling
im pretty sure that the catholic church does, not sure about the protestant though.

mindbugaling
also, remember in the beginning of M1 when neo answers the door to his apartment and give the red haired guy that cd? he says to him "thanks man, your my savior, my own personal jesus christ..."
i think the brothers were clueing the audience to the religious ties.

Ímmes
Today I checked on whether the Christians do expect a messiah by some friends, one of them being Christian herself, they were surprised as I was. One of them even told that it would be absurd, since Christians don't need a new messiah, unlike Judeans, which have been an oppressed community throughout most of the history, and had to cling to a hope, which they reflected to the idea of a saviour. I also think that's logical, Christians never have been an oppressed minority, apart from their early centuries at the times of the Roman empire. Anyway, whatever, perhaps I'll read some more on this, but you should also verify whether or not you actually are expecting a messiah. Nevertheless it's your religion, and one can observe that it's important to you.

I remember the "follow the white rabbit" conversation, good catch, but I'm not sure if it's a direct hint to Neo's future role, or a casual allegory. The savior is gonna be Neo, so he will take over the role of whomever you believe in. The important thing that I've seen is that humanity in the film, is in a state of mass oppression, of which the most popular resemblance is the oppression the Judeans have undergone in history. If the film would be taken by the Saudi Arabian film industry (I don't know whether there is a SAn film industry, let's say there is), then the wording would be "you're my personal Mohammed", but the role Neo plays would still be "the messiah of the oppressed people" (of course, it wouldn't come that far, most probably, since the writer would've been hanged, or his head cut off because of some crime like alliance with Satan, years ago). On the other hand, religious motives, in this film, are material in the context of the argument. They don't stand there for themselves, they are there for to support and diversify the argument. This movie says something, even something no one would be pleased to be said.

Imagine yourself at your 60's, and an old wise man appears in your dream, and says: "the purpose that you were striving all these years was a lie, you missed the truth completely." What would you do? You wouldn't have neither the time, nor the energy for a restart. Most people would go mystical and convince themselves, if their purposes had been a lie, then their lives would be lies either, and this would reestablish their inner peace. And they would remain to be connected to the Matrix.

JediHDM
ommes> speaking as a christian, we do not expect A messiah, we expect THE messiah (aka Jesus Christ) to return to earth and set up his kingdom on earth. This is written throughout the Bible, including BOTH Old and New Testament. And as far as i know, ALL christians believe this, except perhaps the Orthodox christians, i do not know much concerning their beliefs. The Jews are expecting the messiah also.

and, just to clarify, i believe, and i might be wrong here, but wouldn't the SAn movie industry have Neo say "you're my saviour man, my own personal Mujaheddin"? i think that would be a better parallel...

Ímmes

clavis9495
go to muslims thread and have a look at the link in top I think that forum would be ur kind of forum

mors823
How are religious leaders handling the Matrix. I read one article that it was banned in some countries (Egypt I think) for its religious views. However, anyone who believes that this is a religious movie has gone too far. It's listed a sci-fi/action/war/martial arts/ect, but not religious or other wacky themes.

mindbugaling
-thats exactly what i meant....... being a christian also, it is true that the bible states that THE mesiah will return one day for the salvation of the christians.

Ímmes
Yesterday I asked a friend of mine at the Russian embassy to check for me at the Father of the Istanbul Saint Antoigne church.

I have to apologize if my insisting on the subject of the Messiah offended and/or annoyed the members of the forum.

mindbugaling
no no, this IS the time AND place, believe me wink

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.