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I've just been watching tpm, and i have a problem with part of the pot. If amidala had been captured and signed the treaty how would palpatine have got into power, the trade federation would have done nothing wrong, there would be no call for Valorums resignation and Palpatine would have no sympathy vote. I do not believe that Sidious knew admidala wouldn't sign the treaty, he was pretty serious when the ship had escaped to tatooine so how did he expect to be elected chancellor without admidala and the sympathy vote?

What? How the heck was Palpatine getting a sympathy vote anyway? Ebveryone KNEW that the Trade Federation had done, but nothing official could be done about it; that is why he got such sympathy.

The Queen would have signed the treaty and been killed. Palpatine would have made the no-confidence vote himself to become Chancellor, and then presumably would have 'saved' Naboo after motivasting the Rpublic and become the hero of the hour.

Things didn't go as planned but aside from losing Maul he pretty much got what he wanted.

Although it is also plausable that with a new government created for Naboo held by the Trade federation would have given a hold of another swaying vote and stronger stance in the galaxy given the already constructed blockade and would now have further resources...although Ush you probably are correct either that or perhaps he foresaw the failures of the fedration particularly given there obvious ineptitudes despite strong military power stance,

for god sake leaving the hanger wide open and next to the reactor. Then again Naboo didnt ever think to try flying in there either...

He didn't knew a thing: They didn't tell him that there were Jedi involved because the Trade Federation didn't tell him. He just sended Maul because he didn't had someone else. And afer Maul said that there were Jedi he went for Naboo to finish the job. I agree with Ush: Palpy would still be a hero, whatever he would do because his planet was in danger so he easily got a sympathy-vote. Making him the Chancelor, because he is strong: he can 'bogg down the senate in procedures, they will have no choice but to accept the treaty.

I still have problems understanding the plot as well. Which makes it more amazing when people say there isn't one.

All I know is that Palpatine had to become Supreme Chancellor and by the end of TPM he had achieved it.

However, I still think his plan was to use Maul to kill the Jedi, and Maul's loss caused a severe dealy and change to his plans.

How could he use Maul for fighting the Jedis? If you look at the opening lines (the yellow ones) there is stated that the Supreme chancellor secretly dispatched 2 jedis.
That leeds to the conclusion that everybody else wouldn't know about it. So after the battle at Tatooine, he (sidi) saw for himself and he had the Maul report.
So AFTER that he decided to sent Maul, without the scirmish at Tatooine Maul wouldn't have been sented so he would live until EpII and maybe beyond

I wished Maul survived so he could be in AOTC, I mean he was killed off too early. In the OT Vader lived up until the very end. But in TPM Maul was barely seen fighting or even seen at all. Yet his face is the main thing on the video cover.

Yerssot, I meant that Maul's job was to kill ALL the Jedi. Maul was going to do the job that Vader is going to dol; that is why Maul had been trained to be such a combat machine.

But the unexpected arrivial of the Jedi and the Queen's escape forced him to use Maul early, and then he lost him, and now his tool for destroying the Jedi is gone. Hence, he needs a new plan.

It is impossible for a single guy to kill all the Jedis.

Look, Maul was meant to do whatever Vader ended up doing, ok? Vader was directly responsible for destroying the Jedi.

That is what they told; what I now know is that the Clone Wars did the large part of it

BOTH things are (probably) true.

Vader was in charge of hunting down and destroying the remnants of the Jedi, who would still have been a major threat to Palpatine. Maul, I would imagine, was almost certainly the agent he originally had in mind for this.

But he knew that there was a Chosen One, so Maul was the back-up, because maybe the CO would turn dark.

But the Palpy didn't know exactly when the CO would appear. Neither did the Jedi. The JC and Qui-Gon seemed somewhat surprised that the CO had probably appeared.

Yes, the Chosen One would appear to be a complete surprise factor in everyone's plans. It seems that Palpatine ended up making better use of this unexpected turn of events.

This just shows us that Palpatine is a master of manipulation. No matter what happens, all will go according to his will, except the end of ROTJ.

I don't think the destrtuction of the DS was according to his plans

He was probably really mad about that one. You know that the Empire penny pinches.

It's amazing, isn't it? The cleverer Palpatine looks in the PT the stupider he looks in ROTJ.

I know. The PT will be Palpatine's heyday!

Couldn't he got a face-lift in ROTJ???

The thing that gets me is that the Empire built a second Death Star the same way as they did the first. With the exact same flaws.

The flaw in ANH was that the exhaust pipe gave DIRECTLY out to the surface so a well-placed torpedo did the trick
The flaw in ROTJ was that the exhaust pipe was too big, so ships could fly in and shoot the main reactor down

I thought that the flaw was different. Because the DS wasn't complete, there was a tunnel that lead to the core for crews to work on it. When the DS would be complete, the tunnel would be filled and there would be no weaknesses to the DS. Palpatine let the Rebels know that it was vulernable. Otherwise, they wouldn't have attacked the DS at all.

No, my young padawan (always wanted to say that )

"Now you will see the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation!"

I would say it is a complete station.
They didn't complete the circle for the same reason as you thought jedi212guy; so they would think that it wasn't complete. And again the rebels would find a solution

I disagree with that.

I read it in a technical SW booklet that described all of the ships, including the DS. And, if the DS was completed, then they would have closed the blasted tunnel.

A sw book is still not 100% true, the best example is the book ROTJ: Owen is NOT the brother of Obi-Wan so it is not in the movie it is not 100%true

True, if there is a contradiction in a book and the movie, then the book explanation is nullified. However, there is no contradiction in the building of the second DS so the book explanation stands.

Yerssot, I think it is pretty darn clear that the reactor could only be reached on the DSII because it is structurally incomplete! Just because it is fully operational it doesn't mean it is finished!

Well, it wasn't the same error I think
ANH: it was straight down
ROTJ: a lot of bumps and turns

Well, clearly so! In ANH, they exploited a weakness to blow the reactor. In ROTJ< they just flew through the incomplete superstructure and blasted the thing point-blank.

They FLEW, why? because the way was with TURNS an improvement otherwhise they could shoot again

It's still the same weakness whatever way you look at it.

The first death star was destroyed by a small fighter.
The second Death star was destroyed by the Falcon and a small fighter.

The first Death Star was destroyed by blowing up one part which caused a chain reaction.
So was the second.


The second Death Star should have had a tighter defence against small ships. And it shouldn't have had it's main power source linked to the entire station. If it's generators were spread out then it would have blown completly.

Ofcourse! It is the only way to blow the DSs up. They 'improved' it with a few turns in it

There was a tighter defense for the second DS. It had a huge fighter defense. The Rebels destroyed enought of them to get through to the DS, and then flew through the superstructure.

That had to do with the fact that the Emperor wanted to destroy the Rebels, it wasn't standard defence

While it was the reactor they hit on both occasions, it was not via the same means. The exhaust port was tiny,. Yerssot. That was NOT what they were flying through in ROTJ. That was just the incomplete superstructure.

And you don't think that it looked VERY much the same?

Er... no. I think it looked totally different. What are you talking about?

must say i don't remember too many yellow scaffold parts in the first deathstar

I haven't looked at ROTJ in a long time, but what did they say about the DS? just that they had a shield or something else?

They didn;t go anywhere near the exhaust port in ROTJ, even if such a weakness still existed.

I still think it's the same weakness. Blow up the main power source and you blow the station. But who cares? I love seeing those thing blow up.

How do you know that Ush?

Because the exhaust port had the width of a torpedo. It is also in the equatorial trench.

The superstrucutre in ROTJ was wide enough to admit a small freighter and was a fair way away from the trench.

So? Now we can start that the DS wasn't complete, so it was bigger than in ANH

That's a very loose argument. You think that meanssa that the EXHAUST PORT had to be 100 times bigger, twsity and moved to a different part of the ship without a trench?

Simpler just to say it wasn't the exhaust port at all. it was never presented as such and clearly we are not meant to think it is.

You think that meanssa that the EXHAUST PORT had to be 100 times bigger, twsity and moved to a different part of the ship without a trench?

The trench isn't needed for a DS, and it isn't important WHERE it is!

with twsity do you mean twisted?

Twisty, I meant. And we can assume that there is good reason that the port is where it is in ANH.

Never over-complicate unless you have to! And we do not.

It's just like a car: the place of the exhaust port doesn't mather, just be sure there is one

You will also note that a car's exhaust port does NOT increase in size proportinately with the car. Let alone many times more of a factor than the car.

And you are still over-complicating. The presented scenario is that it is NOT the exhaust port on the DSII, otherwise an indication would have been made to show that it was.

A car isn't a DS.

It isn't said in the movie that it was something else so...

Hey, you used the car example first! Practice what you preach.

It;s not up to the movie to say that it ISN'T. The move has to say that it IS. Until that point, the fact that it looks different and is presewnted as different is enough to say that it IS different!

The car-thing was to show that even now the exhaust-pipe hasn't got the same place on every car

It's maybe different because they made modifications to it

Yes, and MY car point was to show that, by that logic, it would still be the same size.

WHY assume that is a modified Exhaust port? Give me ONE good reason for it? Otherwise, don;t bother assuming anything; that's just making stuff up.

modified???
you're the one (or someone else ) that is saying that the DS wasn't complete, than it wouldn't look the same now doesn't it???

Logic has nothing to do about a DS that is created for mass-destruction

Yerssot, please talk sense. The DSII was not complete, but in no logical way at ALL does that make the exhaust port look like the tunnels in ROTJ! That really is utterly nonsensical.

Your logic point is pretty irrelevant as well.

AGain, I am going to have to make a call for fresh ideas here beofre this thread gets closed.

You love doing that now, don't you?
And btw: talking sense? now thanx!

There isn't a reason to believe that it isn't the exhaust port the same reason you say it isn't the exhaust port.
They knew about the weak place with the first DS, so they automaticaly searched in ROTJ for the same thing; it was because there was a battle going on and they didn't had a big choice, were to fligh in

You don't think it is simpler to assume that they simply flew throughn the unfinished DSII to reach the core? That is what they say, after all.

And YES, yerssot, I DO like keeping good order here, and that is because I am a mod and that is my job. If this thread ceases to have any useful purpose it gets closed. This argument is pointless.

Because it isn't finished they could fly in, but if it was finished to you think it would look the same? It would look like the exhaust pipe in ANH: very small

No, I do not think it looked the same at all, in any way.

Of course not, after they remove all the pipes it will look alike. The pipes could be there for a reason, like the one part of the DS has oxygen and stuff

Ok, under ANY circumstances whatsoever I do not think that that is the exhaust port.

Forget how it looks. Look at what we HAVE. What we have presented here is something very different. Without an on-screen reference to the exhaust port, saying that it is is simply making things up.

Remember that there is 5 years between ANH and ROTJ, so everything can change. I must say that I agree that I based the whole idea on loos ground, but if you are fighting a huge squadron and suddenly the shields fall out, the first thing I do would go in the exhaust pipe because it failed the first time, so the second time could fail also.

Actually, the first thing I would do is forget the port and fly through the whacking great hole in the side to get to the reactor...

lol

Can anyone put the lines of Mon Mothma here when she is explaining the attack? My videorecorder broke down, so I can't see it.

I know she doesn't say: let's fly through the exhaust-pipe, but I can't remember how she calls the thing they fly through. (If you look at it: it devides the circle in 4 pieces)

Mothma says little of relevance.

Ackbar says that the fighters must fly 'into the superstructure'.

And superstructure isn't the same as what you're saying, they're flying in

Yes it IS actually, Yerssot., WHat do you THINK superstructure means? I will tell you what it is NOT; it is NOT the exhuast port.

Sorry, I ment this:
It is a part of the superstructure there in.
If you look at ANH you see the exhaust pipe has a little bumb in it, so it is not flat. It's like:

II__II

It's the same as in ROTJ

The words 'straws' and 'grasping' come to mind...

I've lost track of this argument and I don't know who has said what but here IS what happened in the Death Star battles.

In ANH the death star trench led to the exhaust port. To blow up the DS you had to fire torpedos into the exhaust port. The torpedos travelled along until they hit the MAIN REACTOR in the middle of the DS. This caused a chain reaction and it blew the DS.

In ROTJ there was no trench and there was no exhaust port. It hadn't been built yet. It might never have been built. Instead, the rebels could fly right in and blow up the MAIN REACTOR.

Which I think is the same weakness.

In ANH when the rebel leader thinks he's blown up the DS and then say's "it just impacted on the surface", he's talking about what we see in ROTJ. His torpedos hit the part that the Falcon flies through. They never made it all the way to the main reactor.

We know that it is the same mistake, now we're talking about is this the exhaust-pipe or not.
btw: how do you know it wasn't built? I didn't know there was a checklist in the DS that we could see

Okay it might have been built. But the rebels didn't use the exhaust port even if it was there. They flew right into the DS centre. The Falcon did what the torpedos did in ANH.

I KNOW that they flew in the ds and I KNOW that the falcon did the rest.
Because the DS was incomplete you see pipes and stuff in the thing (exhaust pipe to me and others say no to that).

I'm agreeing with you I think.

About the exhaust-pipe?

Not about the exhaust pipe, no.

Yerssot, there is simply no reason to think it is the exhaust pipe. There is NO association at all. It's really quite silly. If we were meant to think it was the exhaust pipe it would have been made clear. But that would have just been dumb and repetitive.

Talk about ignoring a flaw in the station.

The reason there is no association with it is because it wasn't finished. After it was finished all the pipes would disappear.

yerssot, I think that you must be on crack for actually believing what you are saying. There is NO WAY that that is the same thing as the "exhaust pipe" of the first DS.

Remember IV. "The shaft is only two meters wide, so you'll have to use proton torpedos." Remember?

Okay, so how wide is the Millenium Falcon? It's at least 10 meters wide. The Empire wouldn't built a bigger shaft unless it had a different purpose. Case closed.

Case opened

I just found an old, and VERY ugly little pupet of the Emperor with a little card of the Death Star on it,
it says that the Emperors first concern was the exhaust-pipe, so there wasn't one in ROTJ.
So guess I was wrong, though I was pretty sure about it.

btw j212g: I don't take that!!! Please, leave that language, where I come from saying such is a big insult

I still don't know who I was agreeing with.

It weas me, KJ. Yerssot thought it was the exhaust pipe in ROTJ.

So noted, Yerssot. Jedi 212 wasn't trying to be very insulting, I am sure, but everyone bear in mind how easy it is to unintentionally insult someone.

So if you're going to insult someone then make it obvious.

point noted. Just to point out, in Leuven, Belgium saying such is one of the biggest insults so PLEASE don't say that. (btw that is only in Leuven)

If I didn't found that card I still wouldn't belief it.

To come back on plans that are flawing; was Vader on the DS a good move? Didn't he screw up with his flight, I mean could he do better?

Basically, neither the EMperor nor VAder should have been on the DS if there was even the REMOTEST cvhance that the Rebel attack could succeed.

For wich reason was Vader on the DS when the rebels attacked? For more triumph? I guess that the Emperor was like Motti (?) Vader had to point out that he didn't need to be so proud on his piece of technoledgy; so if Vader wasn't proud of it, why was he on-board?

In theory, he was on board because the DS was utterly safe and it was where the EMPEROR was, and they were doing their Luke turning together.

In practice, I can't help thinkingt that doing it at Coruscant, like it was in the early scripts (then called Had Abaddon I think) was a better idea...

Actually I was talking about ANH, why is Vader there if he isn't that thrilled with the technology?

Because he has a job to do. He doesn't HATE the DS, BTW, he just thinks lose talk of it being the 'ultimate power' deserves punishment.

k,
And what do you think about his flying-quality?

As in how good a pilot is he? Well, he's the finest star pilot in the galaxy, isn't he?

Yeah, but he was easily distracted by the MF

He had become, temporarily, fixated on Luke, and the failure of ship scanners during that fight meant he had no warning of the MFs approach.

But I think that he didn't had to look to the MF, if he hadn't done that, he could evade the other ship and still could manage to shoot Luke

If he hadn;t got out of that Trench double quick he was toast; he was s sitting duck in there. And he WAS surprirsed!

I know, but I think that he had the chance to evade the other ship. Surprised or not, and what happend to his special powers: he can see things before they happen?

I would imagune all his future sense was concentrated at Luke's ship.

If he was using his future-thing by couldn't he shoot Luke? He knew what Luke would do

I think Vader and the Emeror took the risk of being on the Death Star because they wanted Luke to see the rebels die. They were taunting him with it. You probably couldn't have done that from Coruscant.

no,

"your overconfidence is your weakness"

Well, this may get a little complex...

Anyway, closing this one as it is over 100 and off-topic.mAs ever, feel free to open a new, more relevant one.