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Check this out people. Spoiler stuff. Right here:
http://www.theforce.net/episode2/index.html#12096

Ush: it seems your theory is going down the drain.

What was Ush's theory?

The only theorie I know that Ush has is that Jedis disseapear and being a ghost are very strongly conected

He and I disagree on the Jedi disappearing act. I say the Jedi have to learn it i.e. Yoda and Ben. And I also say that Anakin did NOT disappear when he died. If he did, why didn't they show us then. I say, Jedi should learn this or be purged by fire. Ush doesn't think the burning has got anything to do with the disappearing.

Anyway, I can't remember all the details right now. We talked about this endlessly. But it comes down to this: if QGJ appears as a ghost my theory is stronger than his. And he agrees. So, this is good news for me.

I don't think the Jedi have to learn it. Maybe it's something that they discover.

I think it has to do with some kind of becoming one with the Force and that takes a lot of dedictaion. Both Ben and Yoda lived in seclusion for a long time, the disappearing was definately a surprise to Vader. So they find out somehow, anyway, GL said we would find out in Ep2 and 3.

And you're right, yerssot. Ush says that a Jedi ONLY appears as a ghost when they disappear. That is why Anakin's appearing as a ghost is evidence that he did indeed disappear, according to Ush. I think it has to do with some kind of deep devotion, some kind of laying down of dead works (to use a Christian expression) and if you've not learned that, you have to be purged.

So, QGJ did not disappear, he was burned (like Anakin) and when he appears as a ghost then it's not the disappearing that makes them a ghost and it's still very likely Anakin did NOT disappear.

Here is what I think -

Sometime in AOTC or ep3 the Jedi are going to discover this by accident. Maybe Qui-Gon's ghost comes back and tells them.

And I still think it has to do with destiny. Following the right path and the will of the force. If you do that then you are rewarded.

That's very vague, KJ. But it's something along those lines.

It is not in the movie, but now you HAVE to take the lines of GL or someone else, something like this;
"Someone asked us what happened after the death of Vader and after Luke took him in the shuttle, we were ready for the relise (?) so we did a quick scene in GL's mension, that was the burning of Vader"

I hope it is vague. Then we can make up our own minds about certain things. I don't want Lucas to explain it in great detail.

Sorry, but he WILL explain it. Otherwhise he wouldn't say that QGJ not dissapearing is an error

True. But the disappearing/burning/ghost thing MUST and WILL be explained. Not in detail, but in principle.

And yerssot, nice quote. But it's in the movie, that makes it canon. It was meaningless anyway, until they burned QGJ when he did NOT disappear in TPM. Now that scene is fairly crucial to the Jedi religion.

There are a lot of explanations for that, there IS a reason.
It is a cannon because they realised it too late

It still has to do with the Heroes Journey. When the Journey is complete then they are rewarded by being sent to a place of eternal bliss with other Heroes. So somewhere in the next two films, the Jedi are going to realise this.

That is still not proven, but it is generally accepted

It's what Star Wars was based on.

explain

It's based on "the heroes journey" and the last part of that tells how once the journey is complete the heroe goes to a place with other heroes.

They don't say it in the movie though

They don't say what?

"Hey, you know what? We are heroes, so we must do the journey and get killed so we dissapear!"

That

That would be silly if it was that blatant.

It would be stupid if they said that.

Same thing.

Pfft. Queeq, you will have to do MUCH better than this to beat comments GL has ALREADY made about me being right, the drive of the entire website ands the logical interpretation of events in the films.

Liam Neeson isn;t even confirmed yet, even if he is then it might be as a recording rather than a ghost, and even if he is a ghost we will need to see the circumstances oif that beofre we judge.

Help from an unexpacted corner!! Ush to the rescue!!!!!!!

The film is now in post-production, that means the film-shooting is DONE, Liam is still not comfirmed: that means that he ISN'T going to come back as a ghost, because you need to film his movements for the film.

That's not entirely true now, yersott. They just finished some additional filimg in London. It would have been a peace of cake having Neeson in the studio for an hour or so with nobody knowing.

True enough. Well, we will see...

Yes, we will.

Whats this heroes journey stuff, youre tyring to tell me that in all of the years of Jedi (1000+) not one of them until ob1 completed his heroes journey, c'mon.

Nah, that Hero's Journey stuff is just the basic narratvie structure of the Classic Triolgy (KJ opened up an explaining thread although personally I disloke the concept)

But I agree with your principle- if it was as 'simple' as reaching your destiny, surely it would have happened before?

But SW is not about OB1's journey an destiny. It's about Anakin's and Luke's. So the disappearing thing does not fall into that category.

No, but OB1 is in starwars and he is a jedi. Does it concure to you that Annakin and Yoda are also Jedis?
So the dissapearing DOES fall into that category

What don't you like about it? It's how SW started.


We've only seen 3 Jedi ghosts. That doesn't mean there are only 3.

When I was talking about destiny I think it has something to do with the Prophecy.

ANAKIN: Was created to bring balance. That was his destiny. He did that and became a ghost.

OBI-WAN: I think he was chosen to train Anakin. As Qui-Gon said "Nothing happens by accident" , "our meeting was not a coincidence" and "the force will guide us". I don't think it was an accident that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were the ones to find Anakin. Obi-Wan eventually helped him bring balance and was rewarded by becoming a ghost.

YODA: I don't know.

Of course there can be more than 3 ghosts, but they aren't important to the story than

Hhmmm, maybe...

I just don't like the idea of the Hero's Journey, KJ. But I appreciate its presence as one of the theoretical basises for Star Wars.

What of importance was Yaddle for Luke?
Of cource, in 1983 there wasn't even talked about a Yaddle

a babysitter

Let's face it:
GL had to make the PT first and than the rest. Now he has to make an archieval edition to make the link from the PT and the OT even better

Why?

An example:
it the PT was made first than the end scene wouldn't have yoda, obi and annakin in it, but the whole jedi council!

Why? Luke didn't know them, why would all these dead Jedi appear to him? They did nothing for him.

Basic story structure wouldn't have all those guys in ghost form anyway...

why would the jedi council be there, Anakin I think doesn't make the council and i doubt ob1 does.

Well, Queeg has the right idea. Obi and Yoda LEARN the dissippearing trick. Otherwise Vader would have never kicked at Obi's empty robes. It's a HUGE part of the plot that will be revieled in the next two films.

But your right about the fact that Qui Gon might only show up as a hologram (R2 plays a holo in EP2) and not as a 'Jedi Ghost' but that may also be the way Obi and Yoda learn the trick, from the other side so to speak. If Qui Gon does show as a 'Ghost'.

Anyway, we have only a few more months to go till we learn...
Cant wait!

The whole destination stuff about disappearing is than fake: if their journey is complete, than they disappear; ifso, that is knowledge that every Jedi should know and that is there for many years.

I can assure you, Jameous, that Queeq does NOT have the right idea... I'm the one who has been pushing the learning idea for ages. The big disagreement is over Anakin's bosy in ROTJ.

Yes, I massively agree that Vader does not know of the trick, the two (disappearing and ghost form) are linked, and that most Jedi do NOT do this.

If it is about fulfilling destiny, then it must be SPECIFICALLY related to the Prophecy, and not be a general thing.

That's what I've been trying to say. But that sucks for the other Jedi.

Quite easy than:
if you forfill your desteny that is involved with the chosen one, you will be a ghost. Including the chosen one

Hmm.. doesn't feel right to me. I still think it's just the MCS...

You're right Ush, but with the MC thing, I don't know that...
I think everything we know about it will be needed to complete the puzzle

And the MC's must have been introduced for a reason.

Maybe just to say that he will be the best of the best?

Qui-Gon could have done that if he'd just sadi " It's possible he was conceived by the force" and forgot all about the MC's.

but mc isn't the force

The MCs mean that there can be a force-related entity that is actually trying to DO something; making ands fulfilling a Prophecy to defeat the Sith (who unbalance the Force, their home) seems a good thing for them to do...

The whole balance/unbalance is really misguiding here! I mean what it really means
Wouldn't the mc be introduced than in ANH orso?
Why do you stick with the mcs Ush, and are you still with the destiny-thing?

I happen to be a big defender of the MCs.

The Balance thing isn;t actually confusing; people just keep reading ridiculous amounts into it!

And do you think that mc's and destination forfilling are related?

Well, that Destiny thing is just a general storytelling thing.

I suspect that the MCs and the disappearing and ghost trick are connected. But it is ONLY a suspicion.

My thoery was that the disappearing was the MCs pulling the body into the Force, and the ghjost trick was the MCs projecting them back into the real world.

But it takes effort so they only did it for the two most important Jedi- those who could help redeem Anakin and save the Prophecy.

Then they reclaim Anakin because he is their child.

But that was just a mad theory. I look forward to any future MC link, but we are WAY into the realms of speculation here.

Lucas will HAVE to explain mc better, or else they should have never have been introduced into the movie.

According to an interview RM did almost a year ago, MC's will be further explained along with the disappearing trick.

I believe Vader did not disappear, not until his armor was burned. Otherwise GL would have shown it. He showed Yoda and sort of showed Obi do it, so why not Vader/Ani? Because Ani didn't fade away! It's that simple.

Ani's ghost is seen later as showing his journey is complete, but the two are not completely linked in that way.

Too many things have been read into this and I think it's as simple as the movies have shown. ONLY Obi and Yoda disappear, and Ani DOES show as a ghost because his journey is over. But the two are not linked at all.

Like I said before we only have a few meager months to find out a lot more.

9 is little more than a few! I am going to go crazy!!!!!!!!!!

Well, we waited 15 years for EP1 so I think I can wait 9 more months

http://www.afn.org/~afn61815/bloomc5bcz.jpg

That was great!

It's from my all time favorite comic strip, Bloom County.

That one was made in '83-4. sometime in there. He did that theme all week and I had them on my wall way back when.

BTW Luke was played by Binkley one of Bloom's stars.

the more i think about the ghosts the more i think its got to do with the prophecy , ob1 - trained the chosen one, yoda trained the chosen one, they then both trained the chosen ones son, he then turned the chosen one back to the good side thus bringing balance to the force. perhaps ghosts have got to do with the prophecy?

Wouldn't that be knowledge for all the Jedi?? So every Jedi, should know that.

Jameous- as I have said to the contrary, I think Anakin's ghost form is clear proof that he disappeared inside his suit. And while not canonical I have support from Stepehn Sansweet (fan relations), Rick McCallum and the official web site.

The evidence in favour of Anakin disappearing is very strong.

Clearly more proof than proof of him NOT disappearing.. The only problem that people ever have with it is that the haven't actually SEEN it.

Does everyone need to see that even when EVERY little thing points out to it??

Always seemed pretty clear to me, anyhow.

Well, I'm not convienced.

Luke wouldn't have struggled with Vaders empty suit, unless there was a body in it. They also would have shown him dissapear. Period.

I would like to see your proof from RM and Sandsweet, it would help convence me.

Otherwise we are just standing here saying "my brothers bigger than yours" and arent getting anything acomplished.

Just go to SW.com and look it up. It;s in the databanks and RM and SS both say it in 'Ask the Jedi Council' reponses.

But as far as actual PROOF is concerned; well, if one side had THAT we wouldn't be all day here arguing about it...

Well Sandsweet answered the question, (RM had nothing to say about it) but I still have a problem with it.

Jedi Deaths

I still say if Ani/Vader dissapeared:
1: Why didn't they show it? It is his story after all, why not show the transition into the force?

2: Luke was a wuss, and a whiner, but I think he was strong enough to pull an empty suit of armor easer than he did. Even with going through that fight and all that. He shouldnt have struggled with it.

Maybe the ultimate DVD version will change that to show him dissapear, but untill then I go by what I've seen on film as canon. I know I'm being thick headed on this one, but thats just the way I see it.

Anakin not being seen to disappear is a deliberatre trick, because his appearance in ghost form is meant to be a surprise.

Meanwhile, Luke is weak after his treatment and that suit is FULL of cyber-gear! Probbaly very heavy.

Where is this scene where Luke struggles to carry the suit?

- Steve Sansweet

That backs up my point that it's related to the Prophecy.

where he helps vader to the emperial shuttle, takes his mask off and then pulls the body onboard, quite why not one of the empirials asked what Luke was doing with their leaders body, who knows.

I can't remember him pulling the body on board.

It's in ROTJ, not ANH

I still think that Annakin not dissappearing is done so, and him returning as a ghost is than to say: He IS the chosen one, he brought balance in the force by killing himself, etc.

I still don't remember it. I remember Luke carrying Vader to the ramp and then they stop and talk. Vader takes off his mask and dies. Then it goes to another scene, doesn't it?

correct, then you see that Luke carries Annakin aboard. Then you see the shutle fly away

I can't remember ever seeing Luke carry Vaders dead body on board.

What do you remember after that scene where Annakin dies?

I am pretty sure that you don;t see Luke pull Anakin on board. So I guess there is no problem about him moving the suit after all.

Why the troops leave Luke alone as he drags Vader is related to my theory about the Emperor. After the Emperor died, the troops lost the subconscious, motivational force that drove them to serve the Emperor. What does a stormtrooper do when they no longer feel the Emperor willing them to serve him? They run around like the broken machines that they now are.

Ush, please watch ROTJ; the scene is there, I know it!!
j212g: do you think that ALL the troopers were in the power of the Emperor

Stormtroopers, yes. Now I don't mean that he controlled their actions directly, but his will motivated them.

k;
I thought you ment that he controlled ALL his personal.

You say stormtroopers, but what about officers?

Yerssot, you are worng, there is no such scene. It cuts strauight from Vader dying to some space fighting to Luke taking off; he is never seen carrying the body or the armour after Anakin dies.

So Jameous, one of your principle objections is also removed.

What???? That's impossible!! I will chech it out in the morning, perhaps only in the letterboxed movies?

That's from the Speical Ediiton widescreen; there is also no mention of such a scene in the scripts.

My thorts have always been that it is sumthin to do with accepting death and dying willingly (eg: Ben puts up his Lsaber, Yoda lies down in bed and waits for death, but Qui Gon is struck down suddenly and does not die of his own free will, and vader is killed by the emperors Lightning. any holes, feel free to tell me.

That would involve no Jedi EVER having died willingly (ebfore old age, etc.). Unlikely.

Remember, it has NOT been seen before. Otherwise Vader would have known about it.

Funnily enough this exact theory was put forward in the Official Star Wars Magazine for August/September.

Basically, the theory being that a Jedi who knows, and accepts their death disappears whilst a Jedi who dies suddenly, and was not expecting it doesn't vanish.

Now this theory does work for all the deaths we have seen so far. However, as Ush has said, it does appear that Vader does not expect OB1 to disappear and therefore isn't award of the trick.

The only counter theory to that I can say is that perhaps Anakin/Vader HAD heard of it, but had never seen it and was perplexed in that way.

While that is not an uncredible explantion, the presented scenario is clearly that Vader has NO idea what just happened.

I knew that scene wasn't in ROTJ!

No it isn't. Yerssot was mistaken there. Case of wishful thinking?

Nevertheless, I think Ush's argument of not seeing Anakin disappear so his ghost appearance is a surprise is nonsense. In the OT all we knew is that Jedi appear as ghosts when they die. It wasn't until TPM that there was obviously something special to it. Apart from Vader's surprise of course.
But Anakin appearing as a ghost was never meant to be some exciting climax. The entire scene breathes serenity and Anakin appearing as a ghost appears to be the ultimate reconciliation.

The weirdness begins when we see QGJ die, NOT disappear and being burned. Then we go back to ROTJ. We have seen two Jedi die and disappear. Anakin dies, does NOT disappear for what we can see (so no canon), we see him (or his suit) being burned and THEN he appears as a ghost. If we add that up and IF we see QGJ as a ghost in AOTC, the disappearing has to do something with a certain status in the Force. If not attained only fire can purge oneself to ghostlike afterlife.

I don't have the tape of ROTJ, I lost it
But I think that I switched two things: Luke didn't got Vader on the ship, what I saw is that Luke is pulling Vader with his arms, but than stops and than there is the dialog

Oh, just ASIDE from Vader's surprise, huh? You don;t think that rather settled the issue immediately?

Yerrsot how could you lose ROTJ? You should keep in it a safe!

Tommorow I go to a friend to pick it up, then I'll see it again and again

Paint the box red and get a bleeper to put on it.

Queeg to the rescue!

Finnaly someone understands my point of view!

LOL!



(moment of silence for the WTCand Pentgon).

I don;t see why queeq has to make this extended extrapolation when my explanation is much simpler. With his way, he has to make up an entire sub reason about why you can not be seen to disappear yet still be a ghost (which contradicts Vader's lack of knowledge about this phenomenon).
I find it a very odd point of view.

Remember that everyone has an own point of view

I'm not saying that Vader wasn't surprised, he definately was. We don't know however if the concept of Jedi ghosts was entirely unknown. What was unknown to Vader in ANH at least, that Jedi could disappear at death. When QGJ appears in Ep2, the ghostsness does NOT depend upon whether you disappear at death or not.

So we don't know if Anakin was unaware of Jedi returning at ghosts. We do know that he was unaware of Jedi being able to disappear at death. Was causes the disappearance is what will be told in the next two episodes and also how that relates to burning or disappearing.

But Obi-Wan tells Vader that he woulkd become more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine. Surely this is a reference to the ghost form? Furthermore, Vader's entire langauge- e.g. 'Obi-Wan cannot help him now'- clearly shows that he is unaware of the ghost concept.

Queeq, I know some from making movies, so if Lian Neeson didn't play in Ep2, he isn't a ghost.
They do that with a technique (forgot that but have it in a book) something like blue-screen matting and stuff. That's how they did that for OB1; Yoda and Annakin, but also for the hologram of Darth Sidious in Ep I.
So I think that Neeson is a neccesaty for the making of a ghost.
This makes that there is a link between not disappearing and being a ghost.
BTW: if QGJ DID disappear, why should Annakin be surprised about that in ANH? AND OB1 and Annakin will be the major characters in AOTC so, one would tell the other about it

I think Obi is talking about how he strenghtens Luke like Oui does for Obi in TPM. That's part of what he was doing when he was meditating.

That's why he's in Lukes head right away. Qui boosted Obi, just not near as much or die as soon, so that's why we didn't hear Qui later.

But the above theory has nothing to do with being a ghost, just part of the strenghting thing. I think the dissapearing trick was another trick Obi does at the same time.

And I havent heard about Qui appearing in AOTC, but just because they didn't shoot Liam for EP2 dosn't mean they didn't already get the footage back in 98. It would be too easy to shoot a short scene in a Green room.

That's of course one possibility, JW. But they also had some additional shoots in London a few weeks ago. Would have been a piece of cake to have Neeson dropping by for an afternoon. So that's still one of the mysteries that will be resolved in time.

And Ush, I'm still not so sure if the "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" refers to Vader's knowledge of Jedi ghosts. It seems like a remark that is to unsettle Vader a bit, with info unknown to him.
Also, the "Obi Wan can no longer help him" may only refer to his death, not necessarily to his ghostlike appearance. After all, we don't know when Vader found out about Skywalker's identity as the detroyer of the DS. If Vader had known for quite a while we may assume that the Emperor had know about it already as well. Unless Vader was keeping it a secret for his alternative plot of him and Luke ruling the galaxy. Yet, IF (and this is speculation, just like your assessment there) Luke's identity was only discovered recently ("... and I'm sure Skywalker is with them." and the Emperor found out through meditation, then the line "Obi-Wan can no longer help him" could only refer to his death in ANH. That Vader put one and one together, that Luke was trained by OB1. But now the danger "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi" is out of the way since the last Jedi Master was killed by the Dark Lord himself on the DS.

So there are other ways of looking at that, Ush.

he still belived Obi Wan trained him in ROTJ, " Obi Wan has thought yo well

Yes he did. But what does that mean? If he doesn't know about ghosts why would he think OB1 was still teaching him. And if he DID know about the ghosts, he might also know that they can't do real teaching, which I assume, why else would OB1's ghost send Luke to Yoda. So IMHO that doesn't mean anything, just that OB1 taught him certain principles that he controlled better in ROTJ when compared to the Bespin fight.

They don't know about Yoda, otherwhise there doing missions to kill him. OB1 is unknown to them, otherwhise they would do the same thing. When Vader saw OB1 and he saw Luke with a lightsabre, he would automaticaly think that OB1 trained him because they believe there are no Jedis left, and Vader killed OB1 so go figure.

Exactly. So?

Isn't this tied in with notions of the living and unifying force? QGJ clearly advocates the living force, which would suggest that his power is tied to his physical being, while OBI and Yoda both spoke of a more spiritual / cosmic unifying force, which would provide them with a haven after death.

Or is that just stupid?

Nothing is stupid.
But what I think is that it is still the same Force, just in a other form. So it's not good, I guess.

Hmm... you're right, but maybe there's some higher order of Jedi that cannot be assigned by the council and has to be sanctioned by the 'will' of the force itself? Wasn't the force originally called the 'wills', too - or was that a book or something about the force? Maybe the Jedi order and its hierarchy of Padawans, initiates, advocates and masters is extended by the will of the force? This would be like the force itself extending the individual (jedi) into the cosmic order - kind of like elevation to heaven, perhaps?

How the Force was called before the movie was made, doesn't do a thing.

It wasn't "wills", it was "whills", from Journal of the Whills. I still don't know what they are or what they were supposed to be.

And it might be something like that, however, only the concept of the Living Force is canon so far, the Unifying Force is not. We don't know if that is a contradiction. In Christianity they speak also of the Living God, and there is no such thing as the term "Unifying God". Maybe it refers to that kind of tradition. Anyway, I'll leave this to Ush, he'd love to trash that concept.

My point with my post about Vader beliving Obi wan to be Lukes teacher was: Vader belived Obi Wan was the only one who trained Luke and Vader couldnt be sure how much training Luke had gotten at the point of where Obi fell at DS. Vader got an indication at Bespin, but Luke escaped even after the info about Vader beeing Lukes father. Which showed strong will on Lukes behalf.
Well they knew Obi Wan was gone and that Luke had grown very strong with the force to the next encounter, kind of strange Lukes education never came up in the throne room. It does in the Novel ROTJ but that does not count.

THe emperor and vader however did feel a disturbance in the force and so they must have realised that someone was training Luke, is there not something on sw.com about yoda living by a tree that emits dark force stuff and so the 2 neutralise each other out so that neither can be felt. Vader didn't know that ob1 was dead but he didn't know that he was alive either, is there not some quote about ob1 "he must be dead by know". Perhaps something happens at the end of ep3 to make vader think ob1 is dead.

Well, Vader Does think that Obi is Lukes only trainer, but that DOES NOT mean he was trained by a ghost. Thus the line "the force is strong in this one" in the trench. He also found out later (EU) that Luke was the pilot. Wether EU or not, it should be obvious that only someone as powerfull as Vader himself (or his offspring) could pull off something like this. Thus prompting the search for the 'son of Skywalker'


He knows later that Luke "trained himself" by constructing his own saber. So he still dosent know about Yoda's training. And in his and the emperors minds see nothing but a weak mind to mold to their own agendas and wills (even though it was agenst each other)


Yersoot is partly right, when Vader sees Luke in ESB he has no reason to think anyone but Obi trained him, because Obi is the last Jedi Vader knows, and that secrecy of Obi and Yoda will be revieled in EP3 along with the need to hid the twins.

It will all be clear in 2005

I dunno, all that seems pretty clear to me.

And about the dark stuff in the tree, well... I dunno. This has been discussed to death. I personally see no need to explain the tree. It's mysterious, let's keep it that way.

I can agree with that.. I don't think we're supposed to understand it.

Better leave some things unexplained. What else are we going to discuss after GL finishes Ep3?

Probably Jar Jar.

I think there must be a clause that he may not be discussed at all on these forums.

It will happen though. We'll all start talking about the minor things like Ric Ollies haircut or the interior of Amidala's ship.

I always thought the tree on Dagabah was one of the finest and most subtle metaphors in the movies: "Dark Roots"...

Because Vader isn't with the Jedi for let's say 4 episodes, he doesn't know a thing about them. Yoda is than nearly 900 years, so Vader could think that if he wasn't dead that would be done in a few years. The tree is known, look at sw.com there database. I think that is the only known reason why they didn't found him.

RIGHT then...

First of all, the line 'Tjhe Force is Strong with this one' is utterly irrelevant and has no bearing on thie situation; Vader is just commenting on his tricky target.

Next, there is no credible way whatsoever of interpreting lines in the films other than to think that Vader assumed very quickly that Obi-Wan trained Luke, because as we know Vader started to look for Luke before ESB. The lines leave little room for doubt there; interpreting it another way is just over complicating. Vader belivees Obi-Wan is dead and cannot come back.

Early drafts of the ROTJ script where Obi-Wan appears to Vader prove that GL never had it in mind that Vader knew of the Ghost Trick. It is a complete surprise to him.

And as for the line "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...'...

GL has said that line is VERY important and will be explained in the coming films. Just a line to unsettle Vader? I think not. A vital plot point that is the lynchpin of this entire theory. Vader knows about neither Ghost Trick nor Disappearing tirck. Obi-Wan is referring to both, THEREFORE they are one and the same thing THEREFORE Anakin MUST have disappeared in his suit or he could not be a ghost, as Lucasfilm and just about every sensible person agree.

As for the Living/Unifying FOrce thing, that was a mad fan theory until, unexpectedly, it turned up in some of the bios on SW.com. we'll wait and see as to how canonical that turns out to br.

Well, you know I disagree with your opinion on "The Force is strong with this one" line, but I'll let someone else discuss that.

I follow your reasoning on the disappearing/ghost thing only partly. If OB1 learned about it, how would Vader have learned to do it. He's obviously never seen a Jedi ghost according to your writings just now, he's only seen ONE Jedi disappear. So, how would he be able to repeat that trick?????? I think it's either burn or disappear (an achievement which must be explained) to become a ghost. That's what we have: TWO Jedi disappear and become ghosts, TWO Jedi get burned (one we see as a ghost and the other not....yet?). So we need more input on this.

As I have said before, how Anakin can disappear is an obvious mystery and may have something to do with his special heritage. This one problem should not distract us from where all the signs point.

"The Force is strong with this one"
Vader sences the force of Luke, that`s why he makes that comment. Plain and simple.

There is not the SLIGHTEST bit of evidence that you can 'sense' Force.

There is LOADS of evidence that you make comments about the Force when someone from the real world would say 'good luck' Hence Dodonna saying 'May the Force be with you' to the depearting pilots. He does not mean he wants them to all be Force aware. He is just saying good luck!

Likewise, when Vader finds this pilot causing him trouble, he comments on the surprising skill/luck of the target. Hence 'The Force is strong with this one' meaning 'This one is a tricky bugger'.

As opposed th 'F*** me, it's a Force adept!" as he would have said if he seriously thought he had found someone with Force power.

I am totally at a loss to see how people can seriously think Vader thinks he has detected power in the pilot of the fighter. He is simply making a comment on the difficulty of the target.

Um, your forgetting about the line " I feel a presence in the force. One I have not felt since..."

So yes Vader can feel the force in others.

Period

Ush, explain this then. How can the Emperor feel a disturbance in the force. Qui Gon feel s Anakin strength with the force, and oh yes what Jameous mentioned.
Sometimes Ush you are kind of arrogant in your replies, everyone else is so wrong and what you say is so right. Be at least a little bit humble.

And there's the way Luke detected the dark force around the tree and the way Luke knew Vader was on the star destroyer orbitting Endor and the way his line "I'm endangering the mission, I shouldn't have come" betrays his fear that his own power will be detected and give away the shuttle team...

I can see what Ush is saying, and mention of the force in every day language - in place of 'luck' or 'skill' as Ush said - was a good way of investing the force with influence and importance in the times after the Jedi, it gave it historic significance, made it 'culturally' relevant, etc., but I always assumed the force was detectable personally.

But that line from ObiWan, "If you strike me down..." is a far more interesting discussion point, and one that has intrigued me since 1977.

My prediction is that at some point Anakin will use the same line to ward ObiWan off trying to interfer with his journey to the dark side - kind of like saying, "The only thing stopping me killing ALL of the jedi is the fact some of them are friends of mine, but if you push me and try to stop me I won't let even that get in my way anymore"...

ObiWan probably throws that line in with one of two intentions: to taunt Vader by reminding him of his ambitions and drawing attantion to the fact that he is just a puppet of the Emperor OR to try and remind Anakin that they were once very close friends in the hope of luring him back to the side of good.

But we'll see, I guess...

I don't think Vader is the kind of person to throw Force phrases around solely on a cultural basis. He doesn't like jokes about the Force ("The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant to the power of the Force" and "I find your lack of faith disturbing" He doesn't strike me as a person who'd use casual lines with the Force. "Thou shalt not use the name of the Force in vain".

I think it's very simple!
NO Vader doesn't know a *** about dissapearing, but remember
he IS the CHOSEN ONE, he will bring balance to the Force, for that, he can do the disappearing trick by himself when he dies.

Nope, there's more to that. GL said so and said that the "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" will be explained in the next two episodes.

Yeah, but Vader didn't know about it, so he didn't know that OB1 would even train him after he died, that could be the solution of the phrase.

What solution? Vader believed OB1 trained Luke to the level at which he met him on Bespin. That's all.

I agree with the Dutchman here.

Why on Bespin????
Vader 'killed' OB1 on the DS, than Luke yelled, Vader saw them, came to them, than Luke shut the door.
Can't follow why it's Bespin.

What must the chosen one do? bring balance to the force and that's it? can't he do something like disappearing whitout help?

Finti, I don't appreciate that comment. I am simply calling the shots as they seem to me and they seem pretty obvious.

In order:

"A presence I have not felt since..."

We've HAD this discussion to death already. Jedi sense MINDS in the Force. Vader recognises the mind of his old Master in the same way he would recognise his face. But it has nothing to do with Obi-Wan's force power and so that's not peroid at all.

The Emperor feels a disturbance in the Force because THE JEDI ARE RETURNING! Luke, being the son of the Chosen One, was going to have a HUGE affect on things to come, was about to make a big choice about his future and would the the centre of any forthcoming Force disturbance, seeing as that is all about sensing the future.

I am sure similar disturbances will be felt whenever Anakin has the potnetial to change things massively. But that is not directly connected to his Force power.

Luke senses the Force around the Dark Tree because his danger and future sense went off, as he was about to enter it. And such a pure, concentrated location of the Force may well be sensed.

queeq, your comment about Vader trivialising the Force makes no sense. He is not taking it in vain- quite the opposite, his comment shows his BELIEF in the Force, as opposed to a silly, plebian concept like Luck. It's the exact sort of thing I imagine all Jedi do. Something unexpected happening? It's the force. Somone having a good day? The Force. Someone bloody rebel pilot evading the finest star pilot in the Galaxy? What the heck else could it be? The Force is with him, of course!

Thank you, Darth Yogi, for taking the time to evaluate my comments rather than just rejecting them outright because they do not fit what you thought before. We do not quite agree, but at least we are on the same wavelengt.

Meanwhile, there has never been a shred of evidence that use of the Force is detectable and Palpatine being the Sith master suggests exactly the opposite. In any case, Luke wasn't even USING the Force when Vader made his comment.

If anyone makes an even vaguely credible case that Vader thought he had found a Force adept I will listen, and not a moment before.

I find the 'Strike me down' line very simple indeed. Obi-Wan knos the disappearing.ghost trick and Vader doesn't; this represents a poiwer beyond anything Vader ever imagined. Simple as that. The forthcoming explanation will be HOW Obi-Wan knows this and what exactly it is.

BTW, it is clear that Vader assumed that Obi-Wan trained Luke for far longer than hew actually did.

In ANH the tranche, what did Luke do with his boardcomputer? Was it already switched off? Otherwhise, Luke did a Force-thingie at the moment

He didn;t use thr Force to place the shot until after Vader was long gone

Yes, yerssot Luke turned of the computer and used the force, he heared the voice of Obi Wan "use the force Luke" and so he did. The next shot is from Vaders view where he says" the force is strong with this one" and that sounds pretty obvious to me that Vader feels the force in Luke. But thats just my view on it, I dont claim it to be right.