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Why didn't Sidi used his 'choke' to kill the 'stunted slimeball'?? So he seemed more powerfull and the others would obey him??

too far away probably, Vader was always close to his victims.

A-HA!!!

The script for TPM does indeed have Sidious choking that guy, even adding a line about how 'only a Sith can reach this far...', as proof as to why they should be more afraid of HIM than the Jedi!

It appeared to get cut, though.

However, this seems such a specific question to ask that I can only assume that Yerssot read that part of the script on the Insider's CD and posted here about it...

They should have kept that part in the script. That would be another thing to link Palpy PT to Palpy-Vader OT.

Perhaps Lucas is trying to distance the two characters

Terribly sorry Ush, but in Belgium there is no Insiders guide, and I don't think there is one in Holland, maybe in England orso.

The reason I posted here was that I thought that Sidi was just paying the TF to do the job, I mean: he doesn't menace them for doing the job AND you know that 'the Emperor is not so forgiving as I am (=> I=Vader) and Vader almost choked a guy for laughing at the Force

Ah. Well, in that case, it was a perceptive question, Yerssot...

It's nothing Ush,

anyway, the distance doesn't matter. The Force is everywhere, remember. They just need to direct the Force that surrounds the being they want to punish/kill

Actually, that part of the script made it very clear that distance WAS an issue. And that only trhe Sith could reach so far.

Vader got Ozzel and they were on different parts of his Star Destroyer, potentially 3 miles, or something like that (5 kilometers for the Brits).

5 kilometres for the Brits? HUH? We use MILES! Why the heck do you think YOU use miles?

I still don't think that distance is a problem.
Choking a guy near him, a guy that is 5 km away, lifting an X-wing, blurring the minds of the weak-ones,...
I don't think that all will fail when you are far away, the Force is everywhere!

The Force may be everywhere, but a person's ability to manipulate it is not.

??
The ability is only in the person, if he can comand it, the Force would do the rest

I think it is very safe to assume, Yerssot, that Jedi can not influence things galaxy-wide. Only those in their vicinity.

Even if they know where they are exactly and they have a live hologram in front of them??

Yes indeedy. Otherwise we would be getting to a ridiculous power level; the sort of thing that KJ hates.

Why do you think that? It's still possible I think

Why, thank you!

There is no indications that it is impossible...

Because it doesn't make any sense. That way you could sit on one side of the Galaxy and kill you're enemies on another side of the Galaxy. The Jedi and Sith aren't Gods.

YOU think that. The Sith wont kill innocent people: that's less people they can be the boss of.
The Jedi only use the Force for defence.
The Jedi can't be choked because they have the Force-reflect. (but that is eu)

I agree.

???
You agree: ok, but with who?
With King Jedi?

With KJ, of course. It is only common sense to assume that proximity is an important factor.

And why is that?

Because otherwise it leads to a patently ridiculous situation.

Why the heck do they need to SEE people on a vidscreen, with your theory? Can't they just use the FOrce to 'feel' where they are? WOW! Now they can kill anyone they like, at any time, at any distance!!!!

Nonsense.

The vidscreen was before my "theory". Mind you that even the sith wouldn't kill everybody;remember Maul on Naboo? He could choke everybody, that is the rebel-group of the queen AND 2 jedi

I am not entirely sure where you are going with this (other than to prove that there are indeed serious limits on Force Power...)

I'm trying to find a solution to my question. If there is a place, there is the Force, just check ESB with Luke and Yoda.
So if there is a Force and you know where someone is, there is a VERY GOOD shot at it that you can choke him

No, that is false extrapolation. The presented scenario is that a Jedi has to be PRESENT to be able to command the Force.

There isn't a limit of distance, where there is a jedi and the force that's all he needs

You ASSUME that. Therte is no evidence for it, common sense contradicts it. It is a silly notion.

I agree.


(Ush something strange is going on. We're agreeing with each other)

Ush, you ASSUME that it isn't according to common sense. Remember that the Sith were extinct for over a millenia. So they didn't used the Force (at least not much), otherwhise the stunted slimeball was history

This is the third time someone has said that to me; Jameous and yerssot preceed you... it's almost as if people I think I argue with people just for the heck if it... I do BELIEVE what I say, you know...

To quote Q (who I am clearly as evolved and intelligent as), 'Heavy is the burden of being me...'

And back to serious land... does anyone actually agree with Yerssot here?

Please Ush, stay on topic because I really want to know why he didn't choked him, what did the cd-rom or what it was from insiders said?

How many doesn't count, remember "The Force is strong with this one"???? You and I were the only one with a different opinion

Yerssot, it is NOT your job to decide when something is on or off topic. Not only did I simply reply to KJ I also brought this straight back on-topic.

And I was seriously trying to find some people with opinions who agreed with you. It was in no way an attempt to just try and weigh numbers on each side.

Meanwhile, I repeat that we have nothing to make us think that Jedi can use the Force in any capacity other than being local, and plenty to think that they CAN'T.

I got a bit carried away I think.
And for the record: I don't argue for the heck of it (that is if someone would accuse me), I have the same reason as you: I believe what I say

But I don't understand why they can't; every needed thing is there. You say you can think of many reason why they can't, I'm terribly sorry, but I can't think of one.
That you can choke a guy for fun, doesn't make any sence, even for a Sith; that's a person less that makes money, and money is power

I am sure Vader would tell you that the aura of fear he creates by such off-hand killing creates an efficiency far more valuable than a few dead officers.

What we have to think that they can';t is common sense, the fact that they have never done it (when it would have been TREMENDOUSLY useful for them to have done so!) and the unused script extract from TPM which pretty much states that Jedi cannot do it.

With that against you, you will need some proof for your arguments. WHich you will not get.

Oh shoot! But let's give it a try.

1) Vader didn't told that
2) An unused script isn't the same as the movie
3) That is enough proof against you

The Sith aren't stupid: look at the manipulating Palpa!
If they got the whole gal against them, it would mean there death.
And you can say that they need to know where someone is, you need to concentrate your 'choke' to a specified place. So a vidscreen isn't enough

Aside from the fact that I KNOW that an unused script isn;t the same as the movie, your three points don;t make much sense.

Your last point doesn't make much sense either.

Can you actually offer any EVIDENCE in your support? Such a contentious point that contradicts what we have needs evidence, not just ideas.

No one could kill someone from across the galaxy. Remember Yoda. He levitated a X-Wing from 100 feet away, and it wore him out. Picking something up and squeezing something is surely the same fore-technique, just different motives. Therefore, no matter how powerful olde Palpy is, there is NO WAY he could kill someone halfway across the galaxy. Sorry.

Yoda had a lot of MC's but Palpa could stay hidden for many years, now THAT is power. So it still is possible for him.

Ush, there isn't much evidence, but it is pretty logic that when you're loosing big time and suddenly the shield drop down, you go for the error that got them killed in ANH

Aree you confusing topics here, Yerssot? Otherwise I do not know what you mean.

Hey, it was pretty late last night
I think that I ment was:

Yoda had a lot of MC's but Palpa could stay hidden for many years, now THAT is power. So it still is possible for him to do great stuff, thinks you wouldn't think of

Well, we have already established that staying hidden has nothing to do with sheer power; simply a natural combination of the Dark Side being hard to see, Palpatine's intelligence and that you cannot just sense 'evil'.

Though as to Palpatine being very powerful... well, of course.

And it seems that the best part of his power is that he dosent have to use it. (untill the very end)

I think thats cool and sinister at the same time. Just think if you saw the films in 2005 in order for the first time ever. (If Palpy dosent use his powers in the PT) the whole time wondering how much power he had and how we was to use it. Then seeing him zap Luke like a microwave! That would make that scene very powerfull!!

While his totally ballsed-up battle plan looks increasingly pathetic...

tactical genius he was not

His over confidence was his weakness, as I wise Jedi once told me.



That was a joke Ush.

Yerrsot if what you say is right then in ANH when Vader found out where the rebel base was, why didn't he just go and sit in his big chair and choke them all while safely aboard the Death Star?

Not only ANH but also ESB and ROTJ.

I think that you first need to know where EXACTLY someone is, because you need to concentrate the force around a neck that (in most cases) isn't THAT big. If you know how fast an x-wing or whatever is, that is impossible.
You can question yourself for anh: Vader followed with the DS, so he didn't know where they were. So he couldn't choke them.
In ESB he stays aboard his ships. He only comes down after the battle, when everyone is away. He didn't do it in battle because of the reason above for the ships. For the base, he didn't know where they were, same reason above.
Rotj: he was concentrating on Luke, so he couldn't choke someone, otherwhise it was byebye Vader.
TPM: he was just a little kid
AOTC: I hope he does something bad!

So what you're saying is - Vader and the Sith have this power to choke people. But they can only do it if they are near the person.

The WHOLE discussion is that that is NOT neccesarry.

They need to know where someone is if they want to do that.
The defence/attack ?? that I have is that the Force is everywhere as Yoda told Luke in ESB, so when the Force is everywhere and you know where exactly someone is, you have all the ingredients to choke one from a distance.

And what we are saying is - that's nonsense.

In AOTC Palpatine is trying to kill Padme and he sends assasins after her. Why doesn't he choke her himself? He knows where she lives. He could sit in his appartment and kill all his political enemies one by one without breaking sweat.

I don't read the scriptment so I don't know about that.

If he did that, hey, there is a whole Jedicouncil and a whole building full of padawans, Jedi knights and Jedi Masters. SOMEONE had to feel that.

KJ, nothing is nonsense. Everything has a point, sometimes you need to search for it a little bit harder

No. Yerrsot, THIS is nonsense.

If Jedi and Sith can kill people from the other side of the Galaxy then why don't they do it? They can't.

Why didn't Sidious choke Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon when they were on the TF ship?
Why didn't Maul kill them before the end battle? He knew where they were.

I KNOW it was a joke, KJ. Sheesh! What I said wasn't exactly serious, you know! Just talk to Yerssot about it.

Meanwhile, you and I are in broad agreement that w3hat Yersot is saying is nonsense.

Now, I really must insist that something NEW be bought to this argument before it becomes another pointless load of 'yes they can/not they can't/yes they can', at which point I close it.

No they can't!!!!

Yes they can!

If anyone can think of examples when someone could choke another one, give them and I will explain them, if I can't explain them then I must admit I'm wrong.

KJ: Jedi don't do that: they use the Force for knowledge and defence, not for killing
For the first thing you said: simple: watch the movie!!!!
1) opening lines: the supreme chancelor valorum SECRETLY dispatched....
2) "You didn't tell him about the missing Jedi." "No need to do that, untill we have something to report."
So Sidi DIDN'T knew about them, when he did they weren't there anymore.
For the second thing: Maul only saw the rebels, he didin't saw the jedi, because he was standing near the TF-big shots.(he was watching the screen+the Jedi were moving around)
They didn't saw them so he didn't saw them. When Maul began to battle them he had to concentrate on the battle.

perhaps choking was vaders trick and the lightning Palpatines trick

I am sure that Palpatine could choke someone. Afterall, Vader had to learn it from someone.

Yerrsot you're wrong. At the start of TPM it's Sidious who tells the TF to kill the Jedi. He knows exactly where they are. Why didn't he kill them himself?

I really don't think yerssot is worried about the logic of the situation. The whole idea is so patently absurd, after all...

yerssot, based on the idea that such powerful use of the Force would be VERY useful and there are all sorts of situations where Jedi in the films WOULD have done if they COULD (and may I remind you that if you can use the Force to remotely kill you should be able to use the Force to remotely SENSE as well, meaning you could find them to koll them anyway in your theory), can you explain why this hasn't been done?

This thread is still on deathwatch, by the way.

But not yet burried.
Kj you're right about that, but he only knew they were on the ship not were they were exactly.

The ability the choke someone that is far away and the ability to sense someone aren't connected.
Knowing one is on a certain planet isn't enough, you need to know where he is exactly, I'm talking here with a distance of 1 metre or less, not 1 kilometre.

Ush;there were some examples already in this thread and I gave an answer that no-one disagreed with, I mean the explanation was in the lines that I gave

I see no credible examples, yerssor, Make them again if you must.
And if you can kill remotely why not accurately sense remotely as well? As you point out, the Force is EVERYWHERE. It should be able toi give exact location., AFter all, Vader has no eyes, he senses only with the FOrce. He never sees his targets.

No, your theoty is nonsense Force manipulation is a local phenomenon. If you want an excuse, perhaps it just can't hear you unless you are close.

Vader can see! If you look in ROTJ, you see his eyes aren't burnt or anything.

For the other point, it is quite easily to explain that, why did Vader had to follow Leia in ANH? He didn't know where the rebels were. So even if the Force is everywhere, you don't know where everybody is. That's the reason why they don't do it in every 5 seconds.

There were 2 chokes till now. One time Motti, Vader was 5 cm away from him, and another officer were Vader had visual contact so he saw where the other was

I hate to tell you this, Yerssot, buit there are NO holes in that mask...

Hence Vader's line:

"Let me see you with my OWN eyes' to Luke. He had never actually SEEN his son!

Right, if you can't use the Force to sense people emotely you can't use to to kil people re otely. As simple as that!

I hate to tell you this
Yeah right!!

That was intended as: let me see you as Annakin, not Darth Vader. Believe me he could see.

And your last sentence: that is what I'm saying, I said that they can do that, but it is so difficult they don't do it that often.

But he was LOOKING at him as Anakin when he says it.

"Your eyes can decieve you; don;t trust them..."

Vader has been taught this. He is beyonfd biology anyway. He is clearly presented as blind. There are NO holes in that mask!

Ok, so we have established that this does not happen. I submit that it is an impssible thing that you suggest.

"Let me see you with my OWN eyes' to Luke. He had never actually SEEN his son!

I thought that was when his mask was still one, with Luke than replying: But you'll die and Vader: Nothing can prevent that, and than Luke takes of the mask.

I don't know how you say it in English, but is it tinted? You know, a car with black windows but the guy inside the car can still see outside.

What do you mean with your eyes can decieve you ... ?

It's a quote from Obi-Wan, Anakin's old Master.

Yes, his mask was still on, but he was Anakin by that point. He wanted to use his eyes normally.

No, it is not a tinted visor; the grease on it shows it as solid.

I know the quote comes from Obi, I wanted to know what you used it for.
He was at that point redeeming himself, taking away the mask was the final step, with death as a result, taking away the mask speeded it up.

How do you mean grease? The definition of that word that I know is oil, was there oil in his mask??

So, again you're saying that it's impossible to choke someone from the other side of the Galaxy because you need to know exactly where they are?


Ush I don't know where you got the idea that Anakin is blind from but it's not right. When he takes off the mask he can clearly see. So why would he not be able to see through the mask?

Yes, that is correct.
For that reason they don't do it

He just doesn't use his eyes, is all. He uses the Force instead. The mask is solid, and that is what the 'own eyes' line means!

Can you now explain wath you meant with grease??????????

You can often see grease smeared acorss his helmet, especially the eyepieces. It betrays it as solid.

What are you for someone??? You notice things other doesn't in 50 years!

The grease can be for his helmet so his skin doesn't ich, there are millions of reasons for that.

He puts grease on thr outside of his helmet do the skin doesn't itch... hmmm...

Look, it doiesn't matter WHY the grease is there. It just shows that the helmet is solid, is all, hence Vader can't see through it.

Tell me, where EXACTLY is the grease?? Do not say the helmet!

All over, but most clearly visible on the eyepieces when the Emperor is frying Luke.

I have never heard that either.
IF Vader is blind then HOW can he 'look' on Luke "With my own eyes"!?!

He would still be using the force IF he was blind. So I guess your saying that the force 'see's' things differently through a piece of armor? That is rediculous!

Vader had sight, Ani had sight. Period.

Are you next going to say that All the stormtroopers were blind because they had the same type eyepeaces? Or what about Boba Fett? Blind too?


I think most of us can see who the blind one is on this one.

testify!!!
*begins to sing*

It's interesting but I've never heard anyone say that Vader couldn't see through the mask before. It's pretty obvious I think that he can see.

He's NOT literally blind; he just uses the Force to see because he does not trust his body. Vader is NOT a biology fan, as anyone can see!

Once he was Anakin again, he wanted to see Luke properly with his eyes, not just use the Force to see him!

Why doesn't he trust his eyes?

Obi-Wan taught him that his senses can decieve him, just as he tauight Luke. And Vader is NO fan of natural biology. Technology and the Force is his thing, not weak flesh.

Well, I think this makes perfect sense, but it looks like I am not going to get a whole lot of support for this one...

You know it Ush!!

What can be deceiving about you looking at your son?

How do you mean, Yerssot? My interpretation of that part of ROTJ is that Vader has been using the Force for all his sensing for a very long time, and actually wants to see what Luke LOOKS like before he dies.

Nothing
You can think what you will,
BUT: what is the evidence that he does that?

Yes, where is the evidence? I've never heard this theory before.

That line in ROTJ wasn't meant to be taken literally. Vader meant that he wanted to see Luke as Anakin rather than as Vader.


This would be a good question to ask the official site.

I think it was meant to be taken literally, but you are right, I can hardly prove it.

Hmm, I may well ask about this. Just to see.

I saw it as Vader wanted to take his "sunglasses" off to see luke without a tint obscuring the site.

We will all know in 4 years when the armor is donned once again, but for now, we will have to speculate.

This is hard to prove and everything is pointing against Ush theory, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Maybe a visit @ sw.coms jedicouncil

Yes, please ask.

Already done KJ, your wish is my command (yeah right)

First, it's pretty obvious that the powers of the force increase with proximity. The closer, the better. And I'm pretty sure nobody can choke ppl across the galaxy. Or use any other kind of force tricks at such interstellar distances. However, I seem to recall having read something about the emperor's mind controll actually extending all over his empire. He guided all the lesser minds under his rule, and when he died, they were all suddenly released. I don't know how much this can be trusted though. I think maybe I read it in Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy.

Second, it has never occured to me that Vader cannot see with his mask on. If you can tell that the mask actually is opaque, just by looking at it, then I guess poor David Prowse must have had a really hard job, staggering blindly about the set. Those lightsaber battles can't have been easy. Logically, I guess it is *possible* that Vader couldn't see through the mask, but I don't see any reason for it. If he didn't want to trust his eyes, surely, he could just stop using them. He'd have enough self control for that, without having to resort to physically blocking his eyes. But to have the *possibility* to see, in case it becomes neccesary for some reason, can't be bad. Another thing is that he didn't neccesarily have to see through the visor directly, but maybe via a set of imbedded cameras.

It wasn't in Zahn's trilogy.
It's still eu, but it's good proof that Sidious is very powerfull and that he can do that so choking is another opion

I think I should point out that David Prowse DID have a very hard job, stumbling about etc; it was a nightmare for nearly all the costume wearers in those films; I think Anthony Daniels got the worst deal, what with the scarring and all.

Having a hard time with the clothes, doesn't indicate that the person is blind.

Well, I didn't mean to say he was, though I am pretty sure he had a VERY hard time seeing.

And may I remind you that I am not suggesting Vader was blind, just that he didn't use his eyes.

But no-one believes me, which is fair enough really as I can't even begin to back it up properly, I just think it makes more sense that way and is cooler.

Meanwhile, yerssot thinks the Force has a long range, SIdious especially (with the Sith that may actually be true), and most people don't.

I think that has pretty much summed up the thread at 100 posts, so ta-ta to this one...

You can't say all that and then close the thread. The boys and girls may want to reply.

I want to say something about the original thing:
in a roll-playing game, my friend, morpheus_jinn, saw that you can choke someone from one side of the galaxy. BUT it's very difficult to perform that.
Guess this makes it a win-win situation

RC, I'm closing this one again. The thread is over 100 and off-topic; it started off as a disucssion about why Sidious didn't choke the Trade Federation captain and it was certainly nothing like that any more.

I just summarised what had been said for everyone's convenience. If anyone wantd to carry on discussing any of these things they can open a new thread on it.