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who is the greatest wizard, saruman or gandalf, (no mentions of radagast or any other wizards please, and this is BEFORE saruman was cast from the order

i saw saruman but my mate stephen (lotrfreak) says gandalf

i don't think saruman could have defeated the balrog. but i think gandalf the grey may have lost to saruman.... gandalf the white would have wiped the floor with him.

Saruman of Many Colours held Gandalf the Grey captive. That suggests that he was stronger. When the ents attacked Isenguard though, he is said to have "fallen off in wizardry of late." Gandalf the White is "Saruman as he should have been," ie, with the strength of Saruman the White. Gandalf the White easily strips Saruman of Many Colours of his power and breaks his staff.

yeah, but saruman would still win, you dont see gandalf with his own industry, or his own evil army of orcs and uruk hi now DO YOU, all he has is shadowfax and a dirty beard

But he has the support of the Valar.

Saruman forfeited his true strength as a result of these totalitarian actions. Saruman of Many Colours would not have been able to accomplish such feats again.

well saruman has support of sauron who has support of morgoth, who is a valar, and it took all the valar to defeat morgoth, plus morgoth is NOT dead he hwas cast into the void and he returns, not in lotr though, still a valid point

saruman didnt have the support of Sauron as far as i know. Maybe for a time, but Sauron eventually knew what sarumans plans were. the movies makes it looks like saruman is Saurons servant but Saruman sought the ring for himself. second thing, who would want the support of morgoth since he is banished and will be utimately defeated in the dagor dagorath along with sauron. Gandalf has the support of all the valar and will be part of the winning "team" when all is said and done.

Morgoth will be SEVERELY weakened when he returns from the void. The fiend lost its supreme cosmic power before creation, as a result of defecting and squandering his power on self-indulgence and wickedness. Melkor was originally by far the most powerful of the Creator's creatures, but evil has a degenerating effect.

After the destruction of the Ring Sauron was nothing. If Sauron had regained the Ring, Gandalf the White said that that would have insured that he would never be defeated as long as the world should last. The Valar, having been barred from Middle Earth by Melkor in the very early days of the world, would not have been able to intervein.

Saruman the White in his youth, was certainly the wizard with the most panache by all accounts. The only wizard close to being his equal was Gandalf, whom Saruman considered defective for involving himself with small matters (or so he thought...)

Saruman was Leader os the Istari for a reason. He is the most powerful and maybe the most intelligent also.

Gandalf, though, was the Wisest. Saruman may have had brains but he lacked a certain common sense. In the books his oversight with Radagast was a criminally dumb error.

All this talk of support from Morgoth or the Valar is a bit irrelevant though- the whole point of the Istari is that they are THERE; the Valar and Morgoth are not. Various talk of what will eventually happen is a bit moot as well- best to focus on what happens in the LOTR plotline rather than bring in Tolkien's musings on the eventual 'end of the world' (which are very vague and biblical) and remember that evil CAN triumph in LOTR- a complete triumph as well (as Shaber helpfully refers to)- so what Saruman was aiming for was very tangible.

Tolkien's role for Saruman in his description of what LOTR would have been like if it was a WWII allegory was interesting, though.

well, christopher lee does an awesome job with saruman, but i just don't like saruman really... as a character, but you really can't blame me... he's the bad guy!

Gandalf was a true wizard of many peoples of middle earth. Saruman, being great and the wisest of his council barely ventured out of Isengard. For me, Gandalf is a people person, therefore, Gandalf is the better.

yeah, but saruman is an awesome wizard, i don't know, have they been like rivals before, i man saruman and gandalf...

this is before saruman was cast from the order.....but how long before....if it was gandalf the grey it would be saruman but if it was gandalf the white it would be gandalf.

Saruman!

I personally dont like Gandalf the White.

WELL DONE EXA *hugs* finally someone other than myself for saruman

Saruman The White would mop the floor with Gandalf The White. Saruman of Many Colors would ahve a problem though. . .I personally hate Ian McKellen. Christopher Lee rocks though.

im a little confused with this thread. the question is who is more powerful: Saruman or Gandalf the White? BUT, if this is supposed to be based BEFORE Saruman turned evil (of wich we dont actually know WHEN he turned) then Gandalf would NOT be Gandalf the White, but Gandalf the Grey. and Saruman would just be Saruman the White, not Saruman of many colors (what he was when he turned evil). sooo.......are you asking who was more powerful: GTG or STW? your poll is a little off, you should be more specific.

well your friend is right in a way, if we are refering to GANDALF the old wizard then Saruman is more powerful before gandalf becomes the White, but before they even where Wizards gandalf's true being Olorin or how ever you spell his Maia name was more powerful then Saruman. yes and no for you quastion. HAVE A NICE DAY

Saruman was the stronger wizard, however, since Gandalf was a Maiar, Saruman (essentially) would not have stood a chance in all-out combat. Also, Saruman was weakened by defiling his title of "the White" (he was described of being as one who breaks something to find out how it works, I believe). So, in studying the One Ring, he had been weakened and Gandalf could have fought and beaten him; in the LoTR series, the reader repeatedly sees Gandalf not use his power to his full potential.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Saruman was the stronger wizard, however, since Gandalf was a Maia, Saruman (essentially) would not have stood a chance in all-out combat.
Gandalf and Saruman both were Maiar

Yeah, Gandalf says so after Saruman tries to explain his choice to be Saruman the Colourful by the fact that white light, if broken into its elements, is colourful... to which Gandalf replies "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom"

Originally posted by Exabyte
Gandalf and Saruman both were Maiar

Yeah, Gandalf says so after Saruman tries to explain his choice to be Saruman the Colourful by the fact that white light, if broken into its elements, is colourful... to which Gandalf replies "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom"
Ack, what a gaff! An erroneous fact and a grammatical mishap.

I am shamed.

Originally posted by Exa
Saruman!

I personally dont like Gandalf the White.

EDIT

if we are refering to that "wizard battle" between the 2 wizards in Fellowship, well, that didnt happen in the book, no matter how cool.

Once Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White he could have easily defeated Saruman the Many Colours. Gandalf the Grey's battle was in the book against Saruman since Gandalf told Frodo the story and how he was captured by Saruman. But Gandalf the White is stronger then Saruman.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
Once Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White he could have easily defeated Saruman the Many Colours. Gandalf the Grey's battle was in the book against Saruman since Gandalf told Frodo the story and how he was captured by Saruman. But Gandalf the White is stronger then Saruman.

Stronger than Saruman of Many Colors not Saruman The White

Where is that writen?

Saruman The White would totaly waste Gandalf The White. . .

Originally posted by General Makashi
Saruman The White would totaly waste Gandalf The White. . .
What? Gandalf the White is Saurman the White. The way he was suppose to be.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
What? Gandalf the White is Saurman the White. The way he was suppose to be.

Yes but in some wierd alternate universe where both are of White rank Saruman would win. . .Saruman wasn't the chief of the order for nothin. . .Although I would prefer to see Saruman and Gandalf fighting alongside each other. . .

Gandalf the White is stronger then Saruman. Both the book and the movies both showed that.
Gandalf said, 'Your staff is broken' and Saruman's staff broke. If Saruman was stronger then Gandalf he would have broken Gandalf's staff.

I reckon Saruman is indeed more powerful given that he captures Galdalf - and there WAS union of the two towers, so Saruman's strength did come at least in part from Sauron,but probably also from minds of people that he enslaved, like Theoden for instance. Hence, when Gandalf frees Theoden, Saruman experiences a huge blow...

Saruman is stronger then Gandalf the Grey not White.

Gandalf was the strongest of the 5 istari thats why he was given the ring of fire.

Not no Gandalf the Grey. What's why Saruman was head of the White Order and not Gandalf. Saruman was stronger then Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White.

Originally posted by Celestial
Not no Gandalf the Grey. What's why Saruman was head of the White Order and not Gandalf. Saruman was stronger then Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White.
Cirdan I believe new that Gandalf was the most powerful or to become the most powerful Istari and thats why he was given the ring of Fire, this made Saruman very unhappy.

But Saruman was stronger then Gandalf in ways that was best during the War of the Ring. His 'Voice' is his greatest weapon and he could put people under his spell.

galndalf gets my vote on this saruman was powerfull but not more then gandalf

Why was this bumped? it only makes me miss Sauron more! crybaby

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Not no Gandalf the Grey. What's why Saruman was head of the White Order and not Gandalf. Saruman was stronger then Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White.

Quote the Silmarillion, page 300 my version "Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age"

"and in that time it was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir. And Curunir (that was Saurman the White) was chose to be their chief, for he had most studied the the devices of Sauron of old . Galadriel had indeed wished that Mithrandir should be head of the Council , and Saurman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery had grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office , since he would have no ties and no alleigance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place not be subject to any summons. But Saurman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history"

Saurman was head of the Council it seems because he knew the most about Sauron, and because Gandalf refused the office. Not because he was the most intelligent of powerful of them, the most prideful and ambitous maybe. The order of the Istari seemed to have no true rankings in the colouration by looking at them who would deem that Blue was lower or higher than Brown and Grey. From what we can tell they viewed each other as Equals. Saurman the White probably wore White robes before he was head of the Council and thusly the Council was named the White Council. The adoption of the White Robes by Gandalf need not be showing his new power, more than he was showing that he now was head of the Council and the Order. I vote for Gandalf.

I vote gandalf. still I wonder.... witch saruman is it? the white or of many colours? and is it between the two of them only? saruman is in charge of an huge army.