The Indian Connection(revolutions)
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my first post and i start by starting a new thread. Being an indian and a diehard matrix fan i was surprised (and pleased) by the Indian connection of Matrix Revolutions.But i need some help understanding this.........wat was the purpose of the indian couple......which one was "our" world and which one was "their" world.One of them has to be the real world, then how can they( or sati) go there as they are all programs? and wat gives sati such immense power so that she can change the matrix as she pleases(she changes it for neo in the end). and after the fight between neo and smith there is a deja vu (the black cat again),wat hv they changed this time?Has Neo died or not?why does the oracle say"We'll meet him again"?How did the oracle trick smith? where was the architect headed in the end?Please answer these questions.Plus i have something for all of you-
When smith is fighting neo(the final fight in the rain) the background music is actually an indian(sanskrit) shloka taken from the bhagvad gita.It goes like -"Asato ma sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrityor ma mritam gamaya
om shanti shanti shanti"
It means:"Oh lord take me from evil toward good,from darkness toward light, from death toward immortality. oh lord i hope the world around me remains in peace."
This has such great relevance to the story till that point and this is the reason i think neo has now become an immortal part of the matrix.You find any other indian connection please tell me.........
wow...ok, it is not between real world and matrix, it is between Matrix and deletion. Sati has no purpose, thus we can assume she has no parameters inhibiting her powers. they changed the matrix back to its original glory, before Smith started ravaging the Matrix as he saw fit...Neo's body, yes, probably dead. Neo's mind, very much alive.
The Machines gave Sati the purpose of the sun. Because she had no purpose before. Neos dead!
hoot> no, there was already a program charged with watching over the sun, and every other facet of existence. Sati is so important, because she has no purpose, she is the first truly free program.
Jedi, the man said "we must go back to our world" . What world is that exactly? If thats simply deletion, why didnt they go with the daughter?
Because the Merv only gave permission for the daughter to be saved, and you don't mess with the Merv!
i still dont know the purpose of rama-chandra(i think this is how its spelled, omega) and kamala, if i'm, not wrong he rama does say something abt it.in any case , sati doesnt hv any purpose then how can she escape deletion and how can rama and kamala be deleted inspite of having a very valid purpose?
I think they just returned to the Machine World to do their jobs, not deletion.
They sacrificed themselves so their daughter could live.
Its not that complicated, mero had control of the whole situation so the parents basically sold their soul to the devil........sort of.
EDIT: So as programs they then worked for mr. mero
If I remember correctly, their functions didn't affect the Matrix, but the Machine World. If I'm right, then they returned to the Machine World.
I can't remember their exact functions so i could be wrong, but it works out both ways.
Anomaly> the incarnation of Vishnu is called Rama-chandra, however, the man/program is Rama-kandra...
Thats amazing about the song. I would have never known. Thanks for the info...
Wasnt Rama forced to sell out the Oracle to Merv? I think i remember, when the Oracle explains her different shell in ETM, that there was a deal struck by 2 programs she trusted, she was betrayed somewhat, so the sacrifice of Sati's life could be saved. Sati is an anomoly in that she was born from love, not the machines.Please correct me if i am wrong.
That sounds about right.
Speaking of songs, in the Oracles kitchen while speaking to Neo, playing is an old French song.
I hadnt heard it for years, but immediately recognized the tune. i'll try to get some info on it tomorrow.
Not even sure if theres any words to it, but let me get back to you on that...
Forgive my ignorance but I do believe that the Matrix has archieved its ultimate purpose: Unification of the ONE into the subconscious of EVERYONE.
Check out the teachings of Sai Baba in order to appreciate my words deeper if you wish. It is a pleasure to be part of this discussion for the way is multiple and diverse, but the destination is always ONE.
"Who in the world
is a man constrained by conscience,
who awakens to censure
like a fine stallion to the whip?
Those restrained by conscience
are rare --
those who go through life
Having reached the end
of suffering & stress,
they go through what is uneven
go through what is out-of-tune
Hiri Suta "Conscience"
He wasn't forced to, he just had to if he wanted Sati to live. That's what he was doing when Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus arrived at the restaurant to meet the Merovingian.
the father and mother of Sati weren't going to be deleted
why would they?
They weren't. They just returned to their jobs in the Machine World, leaving the Matrix forever.
Yes, that is correct. I originally thought of them as programs, and they were trying to get Sati into the real world, however, i then realized it was the reverse, they were bringing her INTO the matrix....
This may seem like a dumb question, but why wouldn't Neo destroy Rama and his wife if he knew they worked for the machines?
Yeah, that kinda is a dumb question, lol.
Neo didnt destroy Ramakandra and Kamala because he did not need to, he is trying to save humanity, and he has been told MULTIPLE times that humans and machines need to work together for a future to happen.
Another dumb question ........wat is the machine world actually?is it another program? is it a mainframe computer? if not then how cud the two programs be going there? isnt mobil ave the place between the matrix and the REAL WORLD? so only people coming to or going from the real world wud visit the place? then how were rama and his family there? they cant go to the real world, they are programs!
JediHDM> Vishnu's Avatar was called Ramachandra........agreed. but the name Rama Kandra just doesnt sound proper.thats why i think it is rama chandra.never mind i'll watch the movie again and confirm.
Well there are things that happen in the movie that suggests the real world is in fact just another part of the matrix.
It's cool coz in the song Navras, they say "Shanti.." which means PEACE.
audioheem> i gave u the translation of the whole shloka they say(see my first post). i believe all of it is really cool.
The Omega> if 01 is in the real world, then how can programs be living there? if some programs arent part of the matrix then wat r they part of? is there anything else to be part of,for programs?
Hi guys just went to see revos and... a few points.
the oracle learns sati to bake cookies perhaps she is a new form of the oracle!!!
Could Sati be a back-up one? She changed the sky and stuff in the end
omg this was supposed to be a topic!!!
>Anomaly, the machines rely on programs in the real world just as they use them in the matrix. The machines need to be programmed to do things. Rama says he's systems manager of something in the real world(i forget what exactly), that means he is the program that governs it.
anomaly12, think of the internet being the Matrix and your computer being the Machine World. You can download programs from the internet and use them on your computer, such as AOL and games. That is what they're doing in Revolutions.
Sati is an incarnation of Lakshmi, and is married to rama-kandra (either spelling) who is an incarnation of Vishnu, and Kamala is an incarnation of Kali who is the goddess of transformation and death, she is also referred to as the universal mother.
There is no reason to believe that they are going to be deleted. I think they even say that they are returning to their world w/o Sati. Rama Kandra says that he is in charge of reinsertion or something like that, and that Kamala is a very creative programmer...
No, lemon, unless the spelling doesn't change the name, the incarnation of Lakshmi is Kamala or Sita, not Sati...and it makes sense, cause Ramachandra and kamala were husband and wife, incarnations of Vishnu and Lakshmi...
you are so right. my bad. damn dyslexia! I switched the a and i!
yeah, i did it the first time i saw it too...its cool...oh, and, Welcome
guys, if i've not seriously messed up indian mythology, i think kamala is not an incarnation of kali OR lakshmi.Kamala is derived from the hindi world kamal which means lotus.This means that kamala would also mean lotus. Lotus can be connected to goddess saraswati as it is her carrier or something. Saraswati is the goddess of knowledge and education(and also music and other arts). I STILL feel the name is ramachandra, not rama kandra.And about sati, the name's meaning doesnt seem to have any significance to the movie.Sati used to be a practice in india with cases reported till the middle of last century.In this practice any woman whose husband dies must burn herself with his dead body.By doing this the woman would become sati. i can find no connection between this and the movie.
Plus i wanted to add, the indian press is expressing its embarassment over the fact that of all names, sati was chosen.They feel it is an attempt to jab at indian tradition. and i hope everyone here knows karma means job or purpose.
anomaly> this is DIRECTLY off the matrix website, changed in no way.
The Matrix: Revolutions (2003) ... Rama-Kandra
The Matrix: Reloaded (2003) ... Rama-Kandra
Just a thought... in Buddhist tradition the word sati is taken just a bit of a step further beyond the hindi rite or ritual in which a widow imolates herself... It is the mindset of the widow that defines sati for a buddhist. And to a buddhist the mindset is one of a very focused mind that is following ones (preceived) path or purpose in devotion (to ones husband) keeping in mind that a woman who has lost her husband is thought to have no purpose... and is even thought of as dangerous in indian society because of her unbridled sexual energy. So to simplify... Sati is the conscious focusing of ones mind to find purpose beyond the need for purpose or existance of purpose. So to me Sati (the little girl) is a representing a program that has no purpose but in fact does not need to have purpose to exist.
I might be wrong about all that and it may need some more thought... any other ideas?
Just incase you guys wanted to know:
Rama-Kandra: Power Plant Systems Manager for Recycling Operations
Kamala: Interactive Software Programmer
"She's highly creative."
Actually, Dharma means job or purpose. Karma means that if you do your Dharma, then you will go up a level in the Varna System.
correction........dharma is religion, as in something u just HAVE to do,there is no way out. Karma is wat we call job or purpose.varna can mean a LOT of things in different contexts.
jaderaven> interesting, thank you.
As a buddhist I look at karma and dharma in the following way....
Everything is energy... energy is like water... when you break the dam water wants to find it level or balance.... karma is the force that the water exerts on the damn both before it is broken and on the damn as it flows.... dharma is WHERE the water WILL flow based on finding equilibrium and future actions. The action of breaking the dam effects the water/karma like our actions effect our karma.
another simpler way to visulize it is karma pushes us... dharma pulls us... they are two parts of the same or simular thing(s)
You're a buddhist?
(Sticks microphone in your face)
Could you enlighten me on the meaning of the LOTUS in Buddhism? I think I mix it up with it's meaning in Hinduism.
Oh, and what you view Trinity's death as necessary for Neo to reach enlightenment? Or is he bound by his emotions to return? (Not necessarily literally)?
Omega> you just gave me the final part of the puzzle...everyone keeps asking about Neo's second-coming, and how they will have to make another movie about it, however, Neo IS the second coming...thus, Neo basically set up a "heaven on earth" in the matrix...and there is no need for another movie...
Jaderaven> WHAT SHE SAID!!!!
Keep in mind that I have only been buddhist for about 10 years... so much more to learn... I am not master and I don't claim to know all or even to know a little
The lotus is a plant that usually grows in stagnant water. Growing up from the bottom of swamps and nasty muck. It stretches forth toward the light of the sun and eventually reaches the SURFACE where it gets it first breath of REAL air and blossoms. This is analigous to human beings coming into existance and being raised in sometimes the worst of circumstances and morals... only to be attracted to the light and eventually awakening to true conciousness and having thier true selves blossom or become enlightened if you will.
As I see NEO and Trinity (not necessarily a Buddhist perspective) Neo has learned who his true self is and does not NEED to come back UNLESS he chooses to... in that case he would be a bodhisatva. As far as the necessity of Trinity's death for Neo's enlightenment.... hmmm??? let me think. If the movie were "real" and not a movie... a Buddhist would say that all actions and events were necessary for the continued evolution of spirit or continued balancing of the energy of the universe. So it was necessary for her to die. Could he have done what he did and learned what he learned without her? It is possible... but not likely. The lotus being analagous to man is rooted in the earth but it head is in the heavens. As such an enlightened being is rooted in the world of EXPERIENCE and his head is held high in the higher planes. The head (or enlightenment) could never happen without the experiences we endure to push us there (can you say karma again ) so it was necessary for him to experience all that he did with Trinity. I think one of the most important lessons he learned with her is love. The machines were lacking in the experience of spirit and love (which are closely related) Neo had to learn about these before he could see beyond his choice.
I hope this helps... lol
My feeling is that since The Matrix was solely a screenplay not adapted from a book, the many characters, especially the Indians, possible purpose may be that of a spinoff movie.
I mean Meroviginian and Persphone could be the Tracy/Hepburn of the new millenium!
Karma is an idea that one's actions in life determine one's destiny and future. Dharma is the duties and rights of members of each class in traditional Hindu society.
Then Karma is very similar to Metaphysics
As it concerns the belief that one can change the future through the choices what he/her makes
Jaderaven> Yep, very helpful. Thank you very much
Ok, since my friend navykidd is too scared to post anymore (he thinks that Omega was trying to scare him off the forum) I'll ask this question for him.
What did smith mean by saying that Sati was the last exile? How does that fit if she is supposed to be from the machine world?
I'm not trying to scare anyone off, unless they can't act civilized.
There are several possibilities here: Either the machines, too, have certain peculiar "prophecies", like "The Last Exile". The last to arrive before the Matrix meets armageddon??
Or Smith is simply aware that she's the latest exile to arrive in the Matrix?
*sigh* yeah, I know Omega, I know... but do you remember back to the Eurlerecht (spelling?). Well he posted something about some part of the ship being broken. You said something about it just being a hair brush and... well he thinks you were making fun of him. So now he's afraid to post. Kinda sad, considering he's a Grown Man. Oh well...
Back to the topic... so, Smith knows about the exiles? And she's the last? That's all fine and good... but does that mean he got to hel club too?
People, check out my location, i'm an indian, a hindu if u pleez, dharma and karma are words used here practically 10 times a day. They are an essential part of the hindi language. Dharma is the religion, Karma is the job. As an added proof, lord krishna,in the bhagvad geeta tells arjun -"Karma karta ja phal ki ichha mat kar",this is not an exact pick from the geeta as the geeta is in sanskrit and this is translated to hindi and this is the way it is normally used.It means keep doing your job ,dont expect any rewards.
smitty> there is no contest...Hepburn/Tracy are, arguably, the BEST couple ever to grace the silver screen...
Simple> Navykidd hasn't been here again because of THAT?!?!?!
You live in India, you are Indian, You are Hindi.... You must be the master and we must defer to your definitions.
hmmm that sounds like you are leaving us no choice to interpret anything on our own...
Sure you have knowledge, useful knowledge, please share it. However do not expect people to conform thier experience to match yours.
Your definitions may be hindi which admittedly is the origin of the ideas of karma/dharma. However, there are others on the planet that see that there may be other ways to interpret things. I think if you will look that even in hindi and sanskrit karma has many slightly varying meanings based on context.
You are cominig across as thinking you have the final say on the definition of hindi terms. Given that many hindi terms have many differing meanings I do not know how you can say this.
My point is it is all open to interpretation... besides the W. bros are not hindi... so perhaps there ideas of karma are not hindi as well but colored by thier experiences from be raised in the west.
It may be of interest that the parents of the W. bros were Theosophists. I am sure this had a great impact on them.
In closing... peace no flaming is intended. I just have issues with people insisting that others believe as they do and that thier interpretations of any one subject are the final say.
I am not saying that they are Theosophist nor am I saying that they are not athiest. What I meant was that thier ideas would have been influenced by what they heard and saw as children.
Besides some Theosophists are athiest... one does not necessarilly exclude the other.
You all want the answer to all this:
It's just a word
Yes! Of course man.
Yes it is just a word. However, "what matters is the connection the word implies"
Whatever, maybe it's taught differently in America than it is in India. I learned in my World History class and textbook that if you do your dharma, you have good karma on the varna (system).
Jadarevan has taken it too far........this is a discussion not an argument.
The Unknown> It may be true, maybe u're being taught someone's interpretation. Cant say if i've misinterpreted or that person.......but i'll still check out and get back.
Sorry for the second post but cud u send me some more info on wat all u r taught abt india in world history.....
Uh, I'll tell you what I remember off the top of my head. Hinduism was in India. People started not wanting it because there were so many injustices on the Caste system and the Brahmans had too much power, so they converted the Buddhism when it was created. In Hinduism, when a person reaches Moksha, they cease to exist, but in Buddhism, when they reach Nirvana, they become one with the earth. If they do their dharma, they have good karma, which will take them up a level in the Varna System, if they don't then they go a level down. The Vedas were truths written down by seers, and the Upanishads were writings that explained how to break reincarnation.
i understand the whole Sati thing(well as much as everyone else does), but what i dont get is what is her purpose in the movie, she does nothing as no role and if she was not there it would not change the movie one bit, so what was the point in having her in the movie, am i missing something?
I'm pretty sure that she's there to show that programs have emotions, too. And also to explain why there's a different person playing the Oracle. And she's a program not bound to the Matrix's rules.
Jesus Christ, ive just been reading all this BullSh*t, who cares if there Indian or not!!?!? its just you Indians just wanna get noticed...
Uh... as far as I can tell, there are only one or two people on this thread that are Indian, so I don't know what you're talking about... and there was never a discussion on whether Sati and her family were Indian or not, we always knew they were... And if you "don't care", then why are you even on this thread or posting on it?
just find it annoying when people are talking basicly about nothing....I think this thread started out by someone saying that Sati and her family is Indian?! its like do we care, and we already know, i think the Indian person who posted this thread must thing Sati is her sister or soming?
No, he was asking about all of the Indian things in Revolutions (Ex. Music, the family, etc.) and why was Sati so powerful.
uhh no, You dont see Sati do nothing exept change the weather at the end, shes a Weather person
Shoota> I don't think that was her only purpose....Rama says she is love....perhaps that's why she could create a sunset....
HOW MANY...*breathes* alright, let me explain this AGAIN...Sati was created without purpose, which is why she was to be destroyed. If a program has no purpose, but it is, then that means there are no parameters, written into the program itself, that determine what a program can or cannot do. Thus, if it has no parameters, and yet is, then it LOGICALLY can do anything. SATI has the ABILITY to do anything she wants to. THUS, when she created the sunrise, she was using her abilities to remember Neo. BECAUSE SHE CAN.
one of the things thats so spectacular about the matrix is its myriadical blend of cultures. Predominantly it was asian fighting, theologies, religion and philosophy. Afterall, theres nowhere more mystic than the far east, eh
if such is the case with sati , wouldnt she be like a god , or buddha. How can the oracle influence control over her?
if such is the case with sati , wouldnt she be like a god , or buddha. How can the oracle influence control over her?
(sorry for the double post, but the edit post seems to be experiencing some network issues -_-)
Sati is an exile program which was going to be deleted for it had no purpose. That's why the Indian couple went to the Merv and made a deal to keep their doughter alive. She would be brought back to the matrix if they would give the merv the termination code of the Oracle. After all that was done, Sati went back to the Matrix to live their without a purpose and the Indian couple just went back to their own world (yes, the machine world indeed) to fullfill their purpose because they have to.
About the black cat thing: the Matrix was at that time reloaded. Because Neo "gave" his code to the machines after being taken over by Smith. And that was just what he had to do: the path to the source the Arch. was talking about.
Thanx Omega , JediHDM and everyone else.Some people hv come here to a DISCUSSION forum to criticize people.i ask them, if they dont give a shit to wat the movie is abt...WAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?Its just that some goddamn people hv these airs abt themselves......some kinduva superiority complex, a false feeling of satisfaction thinking that people around the world are vying for their attention. and shoota...u've started a thread on cypher.....he ur boyfriend or something?i bet if we conduct a poll here.....people r gonna agree that in the complete story, sati's role is more important than cypher's.and if u dont wanna give the attention to indians..........WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU ON THIS THREAD?i think the purpose of the thread title is defeated by ur ignorance.the title is there for u to read and decide whether u give a damn.for the rest of us the title serves to keep out people like him.ok......now i get y he likes cypher so much-"Ignorance is bliss!"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S: 2 days i dont login and the thread is full of people trying to flame me
Hey! That was highly discourteous, Shoota. Cut it out.
I think the deja-vu cat just signified that the Matrix was being altered. I don't think it was reloaded.
...what Omega said...
no time to read all posts..
my opinion about Sati:
she is the "Love" that Neo, as the sixth anomaly, brings into the matrix.
Now The Oracle with The Architect, both has a perfect Matrix... and they restarted...
In Reloaded The architect said to Neo he is different from others anomalies, just for the kind of love he was bringing to matrix... that's Sati!
so human failed and machine won...
The "alternate vision" view of the barge carrying Neo at the end has been described as angelic. It also looks like the petals of a flower, notably the Lotus flower - a Buddhist symbol for two notable things here. First, the lotus blossoms unstained by the muck from which it grows (think: coppertop farm). Second, it symbolises a sharing of spontaneous generation and giving to others - akin to self-sacrifice.
PS Good info about the song at the end (original thread post)
i dont think we should get too hung up on the indian connections in revoultions as the matrix uses/references many different religons, philosphies,myths etc
this gives it mass appeal and allows it to work on different levels to different people in different cultures - thats why were on these forums discussing it!
Marsspider> You're wrong. But if you don't even bother to read all the posts ON the subject, I see NO reason to repeat myself.
you're right dear Omega...
just reading at work and triyng to put here my ideas lookin for agreement or for a very expert to say me "you are wrong..."
i'll read posts... and i'll back with my ideas...
nice site Omega (very interesting things)
Omega>I did complain to the moderator before posting that message. But i think he deserved a reply like that.Anyways, sorry for all that....lets get this thread back to the topic.
Anomaly12> Why? If you think an inflammatory post is WRONG, why go ahead and do something wrong yourself. That's hypocritical.
SHoota should've got a warning by now.
It's this kind of yelling and screaming at each other, that turns an otherwise civil forum into a parody on presidential elections. Rise above crap like that. There's even an ignore feature so you can chose to NEVER read another post by someone again.
back to the matrix.........what in the world is a mechanical line?
When and in which movie is it mentioned?
in revolutions.........the place niobe takes them through to get to the dock at zion, they keep referring to it as a mechanical line.they say no one can pilot a ship through a mechanical line, but niobe says she can and she does.
hey people, the thread is dying out. why arent u people replying?i asked u a question......previous post.
a mechanical line is a smaller tunnel that was probably used for maintenance back when the Matrix did not exist, in SR time...
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