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OK, there is a desire for some users to discuss the home made edits of The Phantom Menace, dubbed the Phantom edits.

After some lengthy discussions it has been decided that this WILL be allowed, with some guidelines in place.

The guidelines are as follows:
There will be no discussion on where the Phantom Edits may be obtained.
There will be no posting of URL's from which the Phantom Edit may be downloaded.
The will be no posting of screenshots from the Phantom Edit.
Basically the Phantom Edits are illegal and an infringement of copyright. StarWars.Com have already made a public statement of there stance on this issue which you may read by going to this link on StarWars.Com.

The rules above are not there because we want to be killjopys, they are there to protect KMC Forums from any possibility of llegal action from Lucasfilms.

You co-opperation would be appreciated. Let the discussions begin.

That'd be just about the same as TPM screenshots.

Anyway, I'm very happy with this thread and I want to thank RC for granting us this favour. He was never much for it, for the reasons stated above. I hope you all respect this or this'll be a very short ride.

I for one, LOVE the TPE. Keeping in mind that the editor only used the VHS, I think he did an excellent job in removing redundant scenes, pacing the movie a bit better and certainly enhancing Anakin's part.

Now, I do see it's not perfect. I think he did cut the introductions of the Jedi and the Amidala throne room scene in the beginning a bit short and I am still not sure if recutting the podrace improved it. But there are more improvements than downsides to it. IMHO OC.

I did think that, but there are certain shots, such as the Neimodians where the shot was altered to include subtitles... Just making sure I covered all the bases.

And the opening crawl, although I wonder if that falls under the same rule of infringement of copyright.

Good call anyway.

Personally I think the whole idea of the Phantom edit is a disgrace. I only managed to watch a very small part of it before my frustration forced me to turn it off and throw it in the bin.

This has nothing to do with how good or bad TPM was, that is totally irrelevant. My frustration came from the fact that some bozzo felt that he had the right to come along and re-edit this thing into a "better version."

His edit is totally out of context with the flow of the story. How can you edit something without knowing what impact that may, or may not, have on the full 6 part story.

The attempt to irradicate as much of Jar Jar as possible is a key example of this. So, some people found Jar Jar annoying, big frickin' deal. Personally I found him amusing. However you felt about Jar Jar in TPM is irrelevant, he was there and he had a role to forefill.

If current rumours are to believed then Jar Jar will have a key role in Palpatines plan to produce the clones. That is just one example of why I feel this "superior edit" should never have been produced.

I checked it; the whole Phantom Edit is ILLEGAL AND AGAINST THE COPYRIGHTS OF LUCASFILM!

We know that, yerssot. We;ve already dealt with that bit.

Now, why DID he cut the conversation between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon at the start?

I just wanted to refresh your minds there

for the question: no action perhaps?

Well, I suspect his motive is to do with moving things along, but quite frankly the start of the film did NOT need that. If anything it needed slowing down.

I'm really not sure if anything he cut could really have much relevance on the later films. Even IF Jar-Jar becomes important later, so what? So will Mace Windu and he had a tiny part in TPM. Now, I wouldn't have bothered cutting Jar-Jar myself but I'd hardly say doing so could mess up the story.

My view on this is he doesn't understand what that scene was for. It was designed to be our FIRST introduction to Obi-Wan Kenobi, the editor assumed that George Lucas made a mistake in telling the story.

Why on earth would we want to be introduced to the characters after all????

Just another example of the arrogance of this foolish person.

I agree with everything RC has said on this and I've seen the whole of The Phantom Edit. It is a joke made by a selfish little fanboy.

Now excuse me because I'm off to re-edit The Wizard Of Oz to cut out that nasty little black and white bit at the start.

I do not agree with what RC said.

I think the editor shows that TPM COULD have been a better film. So here's a disappointed fan who makes TPM in a version how it could have been. Some dedication. He made some radical decisions but I do think they turned out for the most part. I checked some of the cuts with friends and other fans and most people feel about most of the cut scenes, that these were exactly the moments that made the cringe. Coincidence? I think not.

Now, I agree that the introductions at the beginning were a bit short. I didn't like that either. But as far as the OB1/QWJ scene, I think that had to do with the living Force convo. It didn't seem very relevant. And I must say, it didn't much in TPM. It might in Ep2, but I'm sure that if it is relevant it will be introduced again. So I no problems content wise there... yet. I do think it was a bit short.

As for JarJar, he has a very minor role in the TPE. And he will have a very minor role in Ep2, so I do not yet see a problem there.

So is this sacrilege of art? Wasn't it Lucas that loved quoting that good films "are not finished, only abandoned" when he made SE's. I think this is the case. With one difference alone, someone else had a shot at it.
There was someone who wrote in a TPE review something striking. He said something like: if he could do this with just a VHS, imagine what he could have done had he had all the material GL had at his disposal.... Intriguing question.

I'll tell you what he could have done. He would have made a good film into even more of a fanboys dream than he already has.
It's nonsense to think he could edit the film better than Lucas. He doesn't know the characters. By that I mean he doesn't know where they start, what happens to them and where they end up. He also has NO clue why they were included in the first place. Lucas does because he created them.

The Phantom Editor also has no idea what the rest of the story is. Lucas does.

Jar Jar was there for a reason. Taking him out leaves a big hole in the film. In most scenes when the Jedi are being all serious and Jar Jar is there, he is clowning around. Like the scene when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon meet Valorum on the landing platform. They are being very serious. Jar Jar is making fun of the guards in the background.
If you don't like Jar Jar then watch the main action. Jar Jar was there as light releif. Mainly for kids, who this film was aimed at. Taking him out proves how selfish this editor is.

And Queeq there is another problem with leaving Jar Jar out. SOME PEOPLE LIKE HIM. But don't mind us.

The Phantom Edit is not as popular as everyone is making out. Can you honestly say that if the real version and this fake crap were on screens in the same theatre, the PE would be more popular. No way.

The only thing I liked about the PE was when he cut the scene where Tarpals pokes Jar Jar and hhe says "how rude". That's it. The rest was a pile of sh*t.

I understood general reaction had been hostile. But then I don't know too much about it.

Zeriel is going to love it, though. I have a good sense for that.

I wish this thread had never been started. I'm going all evil and it's not even Halloween yet.

Well, look at it like this. Different interpretations happen; always have done. These days a person's interpretation of a piece of art is a lot easier to get across to people than it used to be, hence the spread of this one.

I mean, people are told that their own work doesn't always mean what they thought it did. William Golding's appraisal on his own Lord of the Flies was contested by others. It sounds absolutely stupid, I know, but when you look at the theory behind it you can see that sometimes, re-evaluation has a point, or at least a place in things

And when it comes to different interpretations, some people love it and some people hate it. He may have turned out to have fatally miscalculated some long-term impacts, or maybe he will have gotten away with it.

But in the end, it's just a thing. Fanboy-produced nonsense or piece of creative editing genius; it's there regardless. I don't really see it as an assault on GL though (though it IS illegal, of course!). I think he can cheerfully ignore it, as can those who hate it.

Well I can't for some reason. It pisses me off like nothing else.

I just don't understand why. I disagree with you if you say that NO ONE could edit it better than GL. GL changed a lot of stuff after comments by Howard and Spielberg! So he did feel others were right is disagreeing with what he made. Same here. I think it shows devotion.

And you've got to love that he cut the ulltimate cringe line "You were right about one things, Master, the negotiations were short."

You know, that line COULD have worked if it had been given some support...

Like canned laughter?

(Much laughter)

I hate the idea of people/ fans editing films like TPM. The film is there if you dont like it fine, but dont go thinking the world of youself by editing it into what is good for me(talking about the fan or whatever he is). No the edit thing is crap, havent seen it and wont see it either. I dont go fixing on Mona Lisa so why should this person have the nerve to edit TPM. What a f*****g jerk.

I think this fan just showed how it COULD have been. Otherwise a lot of us are just very concerned if GL has lost it. For TPM'DOES contain flaws that the OT doesn't have. And this time GL had no restrictions in any sense and then he just doesn't really make it up to standards. That's sad.
THis guy showed me that TPm wasn't too bad, there were just a few too many cringe moments and a few scenes that were ONLY eyecandy and served no real purpose.

There is also this weird difference between film and art. Film at this level is not JUST art, it is also a commercial commodity, a product. And when a product is not up to standard it requires modification. Yes, what this guy was perhaps bad, but obviously no one at Lucasfilm had the guts or the authority to convince Lucas that not everything was up to standard. This guy, as a devoted fan, made his own way to let the creator of his favourite saga know how it could have been. And from a cinematographical point of view, he certainly DID improve Lucas, whether you like it or not. He did not gain any financial benefit from it, he just did it in his own time.

Therefore it is very comparable to people who make SW fan art using pics and photo's from Lucasfilm. Do these people try to show GL sucks? No, they show their devotion to their favourite saga to make variations of a theme. And sometimes, who knows, someone comes up with a better design for a poster. Is that bad? Is Lucasfilm infallible? I think not.

I am getting so tired of saying this that my fingers can just fly across the keyboard without me even thinking, SW's is George Lucas's films, what gives anybody the right to start interfering with them, all six of the films can only be judged when they are all finished, there are no doubt parts of the other films that do not need to be included but they are, just because the tpm doesn't move aong at 100 mph whats the problem...

There is no problem!

Of course there's no problem. But there is also no problem at looking what others would do with it, like Irvin Kershner, richard Marquand and the TPE.

Starts to sing*there`s only one George Lucas, one Goerge Lucas there`s only one George Lucas.

'...and he can't write dialogue to save his life...'

This is why some people didn't like TPM. When a lot of people went to see Episode 1 they didn't want to see a film AS GOOD AS the OT. They wanted to see THE OT. Then they got upset because Lucas gave us something new, with new characters and ideas.

Some of the biggest complaints about TPM were things like NO Han Solo type character, Padme wasn't fiesty enough, Maul didn't have enough lines, No dialogue during lightsabre battles, battledroids weren't as cool as Stormtroopers.

And the best of all - No need for a comic character because the OT didn't have one.

Well this wasn't the OT!!!! It was a new film set in a different time from the OT. Comparing TPM to the OT is pointless. In TPM the Jedi are supposed to talk funny. Remember Hans "Where did you dig up that old fossil" line from ANH. He'd never heard anyone talk like Obi-Wan before. That's because Obi-Wan was from another time. A time we're seeing now in the PT.

Trying to edit TPM so it was more like the OT proves that this guy has no idea about SW and the story it's trying to tell.

And the OT does have flaws, just like TPM.






He finances these films himself, he's commited to making another two, he employs hundereds of people to work on them, he is one of the most respected filmakers there is. But you think he had no restictions? He had the same restrictions as he did when making ESB and ROTJ.





This is what REALLY pisses me off. TPM could have also been a tough, violent John Woo style action film. Someone could edit TPM and include blood, more Jedi dying, Anakin swearing and acting tough, the Trade Federation killing innocent people, and countless other things that would have made TPM more popular to an adult audience. Some Star Wars fans would like this. But then they're not really Star Wars fans. They have NO IDEA what it is meant to be.

First off, I was talking about FLAWS!!! Not about certain story elements that the OT had and TPM hadn't. I don't care about that. But TPM was considered by a lot of non-fans as a simple shallow story, which it was NOT! But they way it was told, hidden by a thousand subtleties, it takes effort or devotion to get it all. But that's just for fans and when you get it you wonder if it couldn't have been told a bit better.
Other flaws are pace, lousy dialogue, very lame corny humour (two poop jokes!!!) etc.

Second, GL had no restrictions worth mentioning. By the merchandise alone he made profit on making the movie, no one even needed to go see it in theory. So, screw the "financing out of his own pocket"concept, he KNEW he was going to cash in big time. And he did.
So money's no option, and it was with at least ANH and ESB. And then he had all the technology at his disposal for the first time SW making history to make the film in the way he envisioned it in the 70s.
He also had all the time he had. He could have thought about it for almost 20 years. He definately started thinking about it in 1996 when he was making the SE's. The fact taht he is not a great writer made him almost too late with his script, but one would expect a GREAT script then. Sadly, he did not deliver a GREAT script.
So were ARE the restrictions.... I see none.

Thirdly, about the style. You can say whatever you want about the TPE, byt the style and atmosphere is in synch with SW. It is not something TOTALLY different. It is just AN alternative (IMHO a streamlined) version of what was there. No Johnny Woo, no Sam Peckinpah or even Spielberg style. Very SW, just a tad shorter and without the cringing moments.

You see, most people have this who hate TPM have this weird idea that the OT was perfect and had no flaws. You're saying the OT didn't have lousy dialogue?

"Watch you mouth kid or you'll find yourself floating home"

"travelling through space isn't like dusting crops boy"

"scruffy looking nerf herder"

"may the force be with you"

What's the difference between this and TPM? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It's just that some people weren't willing to accept anything a little different from the OT so then the started crying when TPM wasn't what they expected. Tough. Don't watch it. Watch something else. But don't re-edit the film and then swap the real version for your crappy thing at your local video store. That's what this guy and his friends did and that's how he got caught.
How selfish is that?
Someone goes to there video store to rent TPM and the end up with this rubbish that he's made. This guy wasn't talented, he was just a selfish little fanboy with a chip on his shoulder.

And there were cringe moments in the OT as well. The only SW line that's ever made me cringe was when Luke says "but I was going to toshi station to pick up some power converters" and Owen says "you can waste time with your friends when your chores are done". But I still wouldn't even consider editing the films to MY liking. Star Wars isn't mine. It's George Lucas'.

Are you honestly saying that Lucas had no restrictions so he didn't have to make TPM up to standards?

Queeq if you want to watch TPE then fine but I thought it was laughable.

I would submit that none of those lines are as badly delivered as Obi-Wan's negotiations 'joke'...

Absolutely. And I'm pretty sure that TPM had more cringe moments than the entire OT. And then there's the restrictions-thing again. What he wrote then was when he was young, this is almost 25 years and three SW films and three SE's later and he STILL doesn't get it right.

Now the replacing of the video cassettes is just stupid, I do not approve of that. But let's look at this from another angle. It was Lucas who decided to develop a non-linear editing system in the 80's called Edit Droid. Later that was purchased by AVID and we all know how broadly used that is these days. And how many variations have been about. A tool for Lucas to make his films better. So in a way, he has given US the tools to make films better. Not just out own, but also his.

And when you think the TPE is laughable, you can think of it on the principle. But you can't deny this guy knows how to edit, because from a professional point of view it was well done. And I do think I have some expertise on this field having edited over 50 programmes including documentaries, skits and drama. That's what I am being paid for.

I've never heard ANYONE have a problem with the dusting crops line... Han Solo's dialogue was NEVER a problem.

It never bothered me. I know it might be a tad awkward, but what a delivery!

It doesn't bother ME either! I love it. It's great Star Wars dialogue. But TPM has that as well.




He doesn't get it right? IT'S HIS FILM!!!!!!!!!!! He can write whatever he likes. He created this story, this galaxy so how can anyone say "he didn't get it right"? It's HIS world. It's fanboyism at it's worst. People think Lucas has to make what THEY think is right. If you think like that then you're probably going to hate AOTC and Ep3 as well.

This is Lucas' Galaxy. How can YOU say that it's not right? There are plenty of things in all four films that I don't like or would have done differently but I can't and wouldn't want to change them. I would have had a completely different story in TPM than the one Lucas gave us. But I still love TPM. If you don't like what Lucas does then don't watch it.

Can the other people who don't like TPE back me up here?

To be fair, I don't think queeq is accusing GL of getting things wrong in a Star Wars sense, but in a filmmaking sense...

And I think queeq takes more than enough flak for this TPE defending! I doubt you need to ask people for more supprt, KJ!

I just don't feel safe unless I have a gang behind me.


I took it Queeq was talking about the script. The only parts of the TPM script I don't like are the opening dialogue between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and Shmi's lines (but then I didn't like the character). The rest of it I thought matched the OT. Maybe not in humor but definatley other aspects. But then you're dealing with very serious characters so it has to be more serious.

I even thought the TPM script did some things better than the OT, like the JC scenes showing who the Jedi were.

But it wasn't anywhere near as bad as some people make out. You only have to look to how much Ep1 is quoted everywhere to see that.

Was it Mark Hamil who said recently that he thought the over-seriousness was a problem? Yeah, I think it was.

Yes, I WAS talking about filmmaking: storyline pace, editing, redunancy. Not about the SW world. I would never touch that, I love it too much.

And it's official, on the TPM DVD McCallum AND GL say that there were NO restrictions creatively on making TPM. GL could make ANYTHING he wrote down, his own words, KJ.

And let's face it, Lucas realised not everything worked that great in the end. I do think the huge amount of effects may have taken him off focusing on the story a bit. Why else hire Joanthan Hales?

That's all part of the plan. And I like it, because it's different. In the OT the Jedi were kind of one dimensional. They were wise and good and that was it. In TPM we saw them being quite secretive and a little nervy. They were far more interesting than in the OT where they were just "the good guys". They had a lot of worries so they were serious. In ESB all Yoda has to worry about is making a good pot of sludge for his dinner so he's funny.

Yes, clearly the Jedi had to be serious, but Mark meant that they lacked a Han Solo like foil (except for Jar-Jar's one comment 'maxi big da Force), who was contemptuous about the Force, to act as a counterwieght. Not a bad point.

Queeq that's not what I thought you meant. Of course he didn't have any restrictions creatively but I thought you were talking about standards. Like Lucas had no "quality control" so he could do what he liked without having anything to live up to, or anyone to keep happy (like a studio).

He had the most fanatical and critical fanbase as a "quality control" level and he was financing it himself. But I'm not sure if thats what you meant.

What I meant was very simple. In 1977 there was neither the money nor the technology to make his vision. Everything had to be invented. All that improved a bit until 1983, but he gave up on pursuing the series because they didn't have the possibilities to make what he wanted.
Now, for TPM, he had both the money (if only based on return of investment which was huge) AND the technology.
So if you have both money and the technology to make it and STILL not make a really much better film, then I think you have failed a bit.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate TPM. I think it's okay, but it rates lowest on all SW films so far. I'm afraid and I hope it will stay there. Which means the others are a lot better. Better than ROTJ will do for now.

Well after seeing the DVD it's made me appreciate how hard it was to make the film even more. I think Lucas did a great job for what will be the least interesting part of the story.

YES, that's what i've been trying to say to many of my friends, GL really had nothing important to put in the film, only a presentation of anakin. and yet, i think the film was great. heaven knows we wouldn't have made it better

But it was obvious from The Beginning Doc that TPM was quite jumpy with a lot of short scenes stuck together in thr rough cut. Now they did manage to cover most of the problems, but some of it is still visible.
I also think GL learned a lot from TPM and that AOTC will be different, more evolved in this modern way of story telling.

I agree with you Mah.

I still don't get why you have something against altering a film. Or is it just that someone other than GL did it?

My real problem with this is that the guy openly did it to further his own career. I do not believe for one minute that he had no hand in the initial distribution.

Plus it is impossible to re-edit a piece without knowing why each shot is there. With 4 outta 6 made and onbly Lucas really knowing what will happen, this guy was editing blind to a certain extent.

I don't think he will have cut anything serious. And why is that wrong anyway, to further your career? Goerge Lucas makes money off us by re-editing his films and re-issuing them, remarketing them, making millions and millions of dollars on us.
I still think he did it as a devoted fan, though, not for a career move.

true

I agree with RC.

Yes Queeq I don't have a problem with Lucas playing around with his film. But for someone else to do it is wrong.

And here is the man himself to tell us why.

George Lucas, in a 1997 interview for Wired said this.

"It's my artistic vision. If I want to go back and change it, it's my business, not somebody else's," Lucas said. "It doesn't make any different whether you're digital or analog; somebody can recut your movie and make it completely different than what it is. The issue is artists' rights... The thing that is problematic in film is who is the artist? Who is the author?... I solved the problem by owning my own copyright, so nobody can screw around with my stuff. Nobody can take "Star Wars" and make Yoda walk, because I own it."

http://www.zap2it.com are running a series of features on this very subject. Their artciles show that this is not, by any means, a new problem.

You can read part one at http://www.zap2it.com/movies/news/story/0,1259,---9164,00.html

And what I've found is that a lot of people who don't mind the Phantom Edit are they same people who would complain if a studio cut a film against the directors wishes, like they did with Blade Runner. It's no different.

Oh wait. I agree with all the legal issues here. I completely agree with that. But let's not forget this was NOT a commercial set up here, no rights, no fees, nothing.
Just a fan showing an alternative edit.... now, I know that's not legally correct and all, and I agree with Lucas, but this was just a fan showing an alternative. That's why he sent it to LFL right away.
And now when we look at the result, we as fans can say we like or not like things about TPM and that maybe TPE solved some of the problems with TPM.
Lucas can make anything of SW he wants to, he's entitled to, it's his stuff, but he does not have ownership over us liking every bit he makes.

He wasn't much of a fan, by his own admission.

The guy distributed the thing, in order to gain recognition. Distribution is illegal... Whether for personal gain or not.

Therefore he broke the law.

Also, look at how annoyed he got when he didn't get the fame he thought he deserved. Infamy isn't quite the same and his rants on the website he created were testiment to that.

Anyway, we can still look at the TPE and compare it to TPM and see IF and WHERE it is better.

And then we can meet here and argue about it.

You catch up pretty quick.

Oh definately, I just wanted to make it clear that, no matter how you look at it, the Phantom Editor broke the law.

I wonder what he would think of the new version of Episode-I on the DVD?

It didn't solve any of the problems, did it now?

Well, I guess that's a subjective thing. For me I didn't really see any problems with TPM. I enjoyed it at the theatre, I enjoyed it on VHS and I enjoyed it in DVD.

No problems for me either. It gets better every time I watch it. Apart from bloody Shmi!!!!! She is the only character in Star Wars that I don't like.

you know those swedes

I thought she okayish, not super, but definately not as annoying as Jake Lloyd.

what's that? lloyd did a good job.

I liked Lloyd. But it is a very split opinion thing.

Lloyd was OK, but there were times when I think his timing could have been better and his delivery to.

The one that really bugged me is the scene where he is in the N-1 and he goes to say something to QGJ who cuts him off. He just doesn't sound like he ever intends to say more than the first two words.

One line:

"Sandstorms are very.....very dangerous.""

Jake Lloyd was great. Exactly how I thought Anakin would be in TPM.


Shmi is FAR too nice. Is anyones mum THAT nice?

Yep, my mom is brilliant.

Mum! M-U-M.

That's how mommies should be.

I had a private little bet with myself that you would say that.

I WON!!!

And I love my Mommy....

How much did you win?

I bet he has to get a major loan.

The Phantom Edit... Just a little reminder of the topic...

Ah yes, and what a wonderful Edit that is.

What a wonderful joke it is!

I think we've gone over this enough.

How about a Phantom Edit of AOTC?

I didn't think we went over the actual edit though, only about if it's acceptable to make one.

would one of ATOC be called The Clone Edit?

Yes, very nice.

is that ALL you can say? djee!

What else should I say?

-way to go Yerss
- good one
- that's the best I heared

Try using your brain for a change, yerss.