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A BIG ? has been hovering in my head lately, don’t know what it is so I decided to watch the whole trilogy all over again.

This time, my thought has taken a 180 degree U Turn.

That all began with my first post here – “Why the Matrix was created?!”, n one of the forum fella said besides energy, the machine also wanna to take revenge to human, to manipulate us like we used to do to them.

Well, we couldn’t be more wrong.

We have been its’ guinea pigs all along! The machines, or the AI, was not revenging, they r LEARNING from us. Why was that?

The phrase stood up from others right after I re-watched the films is the one repeated by the Oracle over n over again, more or less like this, “U already made the choice, u only needed to find out why u made it.”

And this, is the whole idea of the trilogy! The AI was in pursuit of an answer that only we human guinea pigs have: CREATIVITY and the way we handle UNCERTAINTIES. We’re used by the Oracle, the Archie, as a whole, the AI, to upgrade themselves to an ultimate life form, to climb to the paramount of their own evolution.

And the dawn of that new era was marked by the sunrise, their own sunrise, created by Sati, the brainchild of the 6th n final upgrade of the Matrix. The title of the last episode, Revolution, is not for us, but for the machines.

From this on, human was no longer needed.

Although I don't think its totally correct. I don't know why..... But very good. Interesting. You explained what I couldn't. (applause).

Don't think its correct and dont know why and how you came up with this. I dont see the link of your ideas with the line of the Oracle.

Hmmm,

Its certainly an interesting theory, and one worth thinking about.

It doesn't seem very strong of a theme throughout the movies considering everything else that goes on and your basing almost everything on that one line and your interpretation of the sunrise, which isn't a very strong argument.

I don't agree at this point in time.

The None you are a ****in genius thats the best interpretation of the trilogy ive heard so far, kudos.

how the hell do you get these theories? I mean the machines getting revenge on humans. It was told that we were only used as an energy source. I could see how you would say they are learning off of us. I mean that would explain the need for the matrix. Man can live on and discover new technology. but thats al i can see

It's also control. The Matrix keeps the humans under control so that they can change them into batteries for energy. But people still are gunna be unplugged from the matrix, and that still makes them human. They do play an essential part in this trilogy, and I don't think you can rid of them. Although the peace won't last, we still need humans to survive (but not exactly in the terms of the machines)

More to come......

Just check out the biological meaning of the Matrix n here is what I found about babies brain that r quite interesting: "......the germinal matrix r the area contains cells that will migrate to populate the developing brain......"

Matrix.....Brain Development......!!

Isn't that obvious? The AI needed us to help them to development their BRAIN, to breakthrough the frame of digital/logical 0101 way of thinking!!!!

Christ, no, this is ludicrous over-complication. Accept the scenario as given- the Machines were using us for power for survival and so exercise control.

This sounds like one of those poor quality Sati plotlines that some fans tried to guess at.

It should be abundantly clear that the Machines don;t think they have anything to learn from us- only the Renegade ones see any benefit in humanity.

but they dont use binary, they use quantum computer power...and if the humans aren't needed anymore, then why keep the humans alive?why not just have Neo kill Smith, and then destroy the humans?

And it is also clear that whilst the main body of machines think in very logical lines, that is only because they CHOSE to. The films make it very clear that plenty of programmes have the same kind of way of operating as humans- the Merovingian, Twins, Persephone and Oracle are certainly not in a 0 and 1 way of thinking.

I think the machines would be insulted by this idea...

Me over-complicated? Or u who prefer an easy way out?

C'mon, the machines have squashed us like fly, survived the nuke attack, dominant the whole planet n yet, they need our bodies to supply energy?! Isn't that ridiculous??

To exercise control? In some way yes, but what is the motivation? Just for the sake of it? Don't think so, they r far more pragmatic than this, there gotta be a reason behind all these troublesome arrangement.

EXACTLY! Funny that u mentioned Merv n twins just on time.

Remember what pragramme they r? Bingo, rogue programme, n why is that? One of the reasons is they REFUSED to be deleted, n why the AI wanna to delete them? Partly because they r no longer useful or do not have a particular reason to keep.

AND THAT, is the problem of the AI!

Logically it just deleted them, dumped all these USELESS programme into the rubbish bin, it didn't realized that these useless programme r indeed VER USEFUL for developing a higher class of civilization, just like in human history, without keeping n dug into those numerous "funny n crappy" ideas and theories (ask guys like Galileo), our technology might still be 300 years backward!

The AI knows that! That's what it wanna to learn from us! The "useless-but-of-utmost-importance programme" namely Sati is the living proof!

interesting idea but not sure i agree...

the architect says the machines could live without humans - "levels of survival we are willing to accept" so in theory they could be keeping us alive to learn off us. (as well as a power source)

If all the machines were after was power why not use cows instead of humans? They could kill us all and humans would no longer be a threat.

so you agree with the original post - that the machines are using the highest lifeform to learn off us?

Not completely. I belive there is a reseaon they use humans...what it is I havn't figured out yet.

If you rember the head councilmans speech to NEO " What is control?" They could smash the "machines" in Zion to bits....but what would happen to the water and air? I belive it works the same wya for the machines. But what do they use us for?

OK, even if they used quantum, that would only made them "faster", but still lacking of the essence of human creativity.

As fo why the Archie agreed to release those who wanna to be freed? I dunno, may we r now so dispensible n he just don't care anymore, a sign of gratitude maybe? Afterall, we r their mentor.

I'll throw in some chips on this.
I think the "machines use humans for power-nothing else" is the silliest theory given the complexity of the story in ANY form. The None has a good theory and it is something I haven't seen before which does make sense to me.

YOU CHOOSE to look at all machines and programs as some are good and helpful and others are bad. WHAT IF they are ALL a level of control and the Matrix, while also a power source that I personally believe the machines have no fear of it ever being compromised, is also a simulator of sort...
That is that the machines only purpose is survival, they COULD eventually want LOVE, FRIENDSHIP, LOYALTY, ETC or at least an undestanding of these things. Those are the things that make us human and machines and programs could come to envy this. Assuming their justifiable feeling of superiority, they could also believe they can just learn it from the humans through interaction and scenarios...
Maybe the MAtrix restarts once the SIMULATION is complete and they record their data and start over...

It IS a reach when you look at the movie as a whole but a valid arguement at least if your perception that the machines and programs are not on our side AT ALL!!!! I personally like that thought as a twist but who knows...

Has there EVER been anything about extended DVD's??? I will try the search feature...

Precisely!

Lets for once try not too see things from the usual "human-centred-point-of-view", a clearer picture will pop up.

A matrix is, among things, a mathematical object, which is used in higher dimensional spaces to, for example, turn multi-dimensional object.
The machines view themselves as superior.
“We don’t need YOU – we don’t need anything.”
They do not use humans to LEARN from us, any more than we use solar-power to LEARN from the sun. The arrogance displayed by many of the programs (such has Mero/Smith) should make this obvious.
This is reminiscent of the “The machines want to learn about LOVE” theory which surfaced here some months ago.
There is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, to back up this idea in the movies, games or Animatrix.

I think the none is making a valid point.
I think the machines use humans for power, but I am sure they could be learning things from humans as well. How else could they manipulate humans the way they do.They didn't just instantly become intelligent. Even the most intelligent , studies things and learns things to become what they are.
But this is just my opinion of course.

He definately has a valid point and I was saying many, many months ago (before the LOVE one) that the Matrix isn't a prison. But, guess what happened. Yep, you got it

But saying that, the very basic premise of what the LOVE Theory was based upon was sound. At least, if you think it through properly

U know what Omega? I think u r absolutely correct saying that the AI was in some way far more superior than us, however, that may not be the entire picture.

Let’s travel back to the very beginning, the first version of the Matrix.

Still remember how the Archie portrait it? “…..quite naturally perfect, flawless, a work of art ….(but)….a monumental failure.” That explained one point clearly - The AI don’t know shit what’s inside of us at the beginning.

And then, with the help of the Oracle, it gradually knew the tricks to deal with our mind. The Matrix is somehow pretty much like chess games, set 1/version1, set 2/version 2 and so forth. While “playing” with us, the AI also “grew n learnt” from it’s opponent.

Through this process, the Oracle, the programme that knew us best, came to realize that there r something inside of us that the AI didn’t have, without these essence, the AI will still be forever an AI, n won’t be able to climb up the final n most crucial step of their evolution, to sublimate into the ultimate life form n replacing human completely.

What exactly r these essence? Take a look at character/programme like, for example, Merv, a by-product during such learning process. We have to admit that he’s “so human”, he is “almost there”, but no, he’s still lacking of something, he’s afterall, only a programme, he himself also aware of such thing, that’s why he hate his creator (the Oracle I guess) so much that he wanted her eyes in revenge (probably mocking, stop her from “looking for” the path to the goal).

Knowing this ultimate defect, the Oracle decided to play the final set of the games, a very dangerous game indeed…..

(Gooosh I’m so burnt out! more to come…….Oh btw, I’m just expressing my thought here, Not AT ALL making any conclusions)

Why? Why should the machines want to learn from us? Please, aside from stating that the theory APPEALS to you, give some proof.

Angelsolovely> Animatrix, Second Renaissance. Mankind created the first AI. In the machine city this AI was developed even further. So while humans created the AI, the AI’s themselves perfected their one artificial intelligence. They have STUDIED humans. That is something completely different from some NEED to LEARN from us.

The None> That the Oracle (along with other programs) realise, that the only way to get to the future is TOGETHER, is in no way the same as saying “The machines made the Matrix to ALSO learn from us.” That is not the purpose of the Matrix.
What separates mankind from machine is lack of purpose, the ability to make emotional choices, and to fill the word love with meaning. But who’s to say the machines MISS having these traits?

The Oracle did not create the Merovingian. (Play ETM for details on what’s happening, and watch Revolutions again). She “took” Seraph, and so, when the opportunity arose (Rama and Kamala offering to sell the Oracles shell termination code, in exchange for help in exiling their daughter in the Matrix), the Mero took said opportunity.
The Oracle was created to study “certain aspects of the human psyche.” WHY do we choose as we do? We have no set programmed purpose in life, so we can make choices based on… emotions. This is what the Oracle studies “You didn’t come here to make a choice, you’ve already made it. You’re here to understand WHY you made it.”

Sorry to be anal but Dues Ex Machina says "We don't need you, we need nothing!"

not "we don't need anything!"

this post was pointless....carry on.

Terribly sorry.

I am sorry, but to accept the scenario offered is not an easy way out. And to try and claim superiority by saying we are taking a human centred point of view is cheap and without intellectual basis. As rational beings we are accepting the true scenario via a process of informed reasoning. If there was any GOOD reason to think differently we would- you cannot supply one.

As Omega says, this is an empty theory with nothing to back it. It is simply an attempt to look clever and try to see more than trhere is to things. It does not work. Do not think trying to find a fancy way to explain things is in any way worthwhile- doubly so when a perfectly adequate explanation, that the films give us, already exists. And trying to find issue with the central premise- that the machines need humans for life- is a pointless exercise. That is the situation the film GIVES us. It is a condition of the film. There is no more point questioning that than questioning whether such AI could ever be created or that a Matrix like the one that is in the film could exist. It is just a premise. To try and tear down a basic premise of the film is a waste of time- like saying the Force could not exist in Star Wars.

So I am sorry. But this whole idea leads us nowhere. The Matrix is a prison, a survival tool, and a means of control. The Machines do not want to learn anything from us. And you will just have to accept that because that is how the film tells it, and nothing you say or do will stop that from being how it is.

As I say- all else is pointless over-complication, and void.

See, this is the kind of thinking that gets to me. Rather than seeing this as a problem with the premise, what you SHOULD do is say "The premise must therefore be that they need intelligent beings in the Matrix otherwise they would just use cattle."

The reason for that is as unknown as the process by which they extract power, but that is still how it is.

In any case, it is astonishingly unimportant WHY they need humans for power. They just DO.

Omega is right. The Matrix was not created to learn from us; it was created to control us. Us meaning human beings. The cow theory doesn't work, as you can plainly see that there is no life on Earth in the real world. The cows, as well as all the other animals, were destroyed in the war. It is never stated, but I believe the machines chose not to destroy humanity either to use as batteries, or perhaps, loyalty. The various programs like the Oracle, Merovigian, and others were created to learn more about us, but only to the point that we could be controlled better.

THe Omega>"They have STUDIED humans. That is something completely different from some NEED to LEARN from us."

they might not NEED to learn from us but if they are studying us then the purpose of studying is to learn.

It’s always fascinating to see how people react to something different.

First of all, I’m NOT “trying to look clever” by making a different voice, I’m here to SHARE my thought, fine with me whether u agree to it or not, for I maybe right or I maybe wrong, but your attitude towards others only leads u to nowhere I may say.

Am I questioning something non-existed in the movies? Do take a look at my previous post, see if I have been making things up or fabricating any elements or scenes that were not there in the movies, if u don’t mind.

Nonetheless, even if u liked to take things as they r, then r u so sure u knew them so well? Alright then, please do tell me besides Morph, who else from the machine side have ever claimed that we were there solely for the purpose of human batteries? The Archie? The Oracle? Or perhaps, agent Smith? if yes, when n where may I ask?

Just what makes u so sure there r absolutely no other saying about the interpretation of the trilogy? If the W Bros were there only to tell us a plain n straight forward story n expected us to swallow all the FACTS without a hiccup, then I shall say, “How very disappointing that is!!”

By the way, I understand now why some people refused to leave the Matrix, they r just so afraid of exploring the world beyond.

I think I shall stop here, have a nice weekend.

Mook> The Machines do not need to LEARN FROM us. In Second Renaissance we see, that they have long studied the human protein-based body, and turned their knowledge into the pod-towers for energy.
So, the machines have studied the human body and (later on) the mind to learn how we work and function. Not to LEARN FROM us.
If you cannot tell the difference between studying with the purpose of utilising and object (in this case humans), and studying to learn FROM, I cannot help you.

The None> You are NOT supplying any proof. You’re theory is build on an assumption which is not validated anywhere in the trilogy, the games OR Animatrix. You ARE the one making an assertion, hence the burden of proof lies on you.
It’s not my job to prove that the machines are NOT in it to learn from humans. You cannot prove a negative. Hence the job is yours. PROVE your theory.

What’s the point of exploration, if the world to be explored is non-existent. That is merely a waste of time. There are many layers in the movies, but the various theories that surface must be supported with proof. Claiming, say, that Neo is NOT the One, requires something within the franchise of the Matrix to support that.
So, it’s your job.

Again, you make these lazy, cheap contemptible attempts to say we are 'afraid of the new', and make an even more cliched attempt to fit it into the context of the films.

Actually, we are not afraid of new ideas- this place is bursting with them- we simply dislike poor ones. And like I say, we have arrived at our conclusions not by simply accepting ther mundane but by a rational process of observation and deduction.

It is hilarious that you would want more people to keep saying "We need humans solely for batteries" for that to be so. We are told- many times- that they need us for power, we are given no other reason they need us, can you give us a SINGLER good reason to disagree with what the film gives us? No, you can only continue to hypothesise with no backing.

People still seem to think there is wisdom in the unconventional- digress from what seems obvious and therefore you must somehow be perceptive and clever. This is not so. Something with nothing to it has nothing to it no matter how original this is. And this has nothing to it. Nor is it original.

Feel free to be disappointed- but there is absolutely LOADS in the movies that is not clear cut and can be discussed until the end of time withjout attempting to pick holesin the basic premise of the tilm- that in the future humans are help captive in a simulated world whilst their bodies are used as a means of survival.