In your best professional opinion

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Cowboyography
ok i know this has been done before, but I want simple straight forward answers here. In you best estimation What is TOM BOMBADIL??? I have read this part over and over, and possibly I am missing something from the Similacrum, I just dont get it. Could he possibly another Wizard like Gandalf, possibly the lost blue wizard? HELP!!!

Ushgarak
Certainly not that; there are two Blue Wizards and neither of them are him.

Cowboyography
Is bombadil Tolkien himself!!!! what do you think about that!!!

nazgulinthedark
The witchking, also known as the witchking of angmar, because if i'm not mistaken that is where he is from or somthing. The witchking, leader of the ringwraiths/nazgul is tom bombadil. tee da. look at the tom bombadil thread, the post by sauron

nazgulinthedark
quote:
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Originally posted by sauron
FOUND IT LOL

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."
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Ushgarak
Yes, but that is all bullcrap. I very much doubt if Sauron meant that to be taken seriously- it's an insane idea.

And if he did, it is badly researched- Elrond clearly states Tom as being older than himself.

nazgulinthedark
oh well, think what yuo want, i shall do the same

Ushgarak
Feel free. Of course, there is the fact that if you believe that you are WRONG because it directly contradicts what is said in the books. If you like being wrong, go ahead. Perhaps you would like to think Gimli is an Orc, Legolas a Valar and Aragorn an ostrich?

Or perhaps people should be more inclined to listen to facts and set their beliefs accordingly.

Cowboyography
ok so i didnt miss anything in the Similacrum, or the lost stories of Tolkien?? Hmmm
Nazgulinthedark that is interesting, and would be an ingenious twist if Tom was the witch King, however wouldnt that mean that Tom was once the King of men? also it would mean he had one of the Rings of power, hmmmmm interesting indeed!!!

Cowboyography
Ushgarak what do you believe Bombadilo is? I think its unfair for you to attack Nazgul when he has such an elaborate explanation and you have nothing at all!!

Aurora
Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's genius work. Out of every Tolkien litature, book, or writing he is the only thing that Tolkien tried visibly not to explain. He never exactly tells u what he is. He just is. Tom is his own master. That is it. I don't belive he is the Witch King nor a wizard. He just IS.

Ushgarak
What idiocy is that, cowboy? I have provided direct evidence from the books saying that what Nazgul quoted is wrong. so why attack me for that? Get your heads together, guys, if you post nonsense I will call it as such.

I have no idea what Bombadil is and nor do I care- because Tolkien did not know either. If you want to see the possibilities go here:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

and read the entry on Bombadil.

lkotbr33
thats crap hes not the witch king, he knew frodo had the ring he would have taken it

Ushgarak
Of course its crap. There are a hundred reasons why it is crap. Any fan with any sense would not believe such a thing.

lkotbr33
damn straight

nazgulinthedark
thank you, but i am a she
and that's quoted from sauron, he found it and all

Ushgarak
And you are very welcome here, but surely you realise that what Sauron said is obviously not so and entirely contradicts the books?

nazgulinthedark
if you would care to look at what he has there you would notice he quoted the book in helping to show his reasoning, so i don't see where you get that he's contridicting it, he actually is using it as part of the explination!

lkotbr33
ok, cool

lkotbr33
but it still makes no sense b/c he would have taken the ring and never helped frodo all those times

Ushgarak
!

Nazgul, do I seriousay have to refute that half-baked argument? That argument with no sense or reason behind it? Have you read the books? Do I have to point out that Tom ios not a servant of the Dark but clearly referred to as otherwise? Do I have to point out that in all of Tolkien's writings Tom is conceptually different to anything approaching the Witch-King? Do I have to point out that the Witch-King was busy and accounted for during the time that Frodo meets him in the book? Do I have to point out that the Barrow Wights are under his power because they are inside his own domain? Do I have to point out that he was not acting like the Witch-King, without the motivations of the Witch-King, and not doing what the Witch-King would have done i.e. taken the Ring from Frodo and CERTAINLY not saved Frodo's life twice, one time from the Barrow Wights? Do I have to point out that the Witch-King has no physical form,. and nor would he be immune to the power of the Ring, as is rather evident?

Or shall I just repeat the evidence of most stupendous obviousness that shoots this down before it even starts? The Witch-King was a MORTAL MAN, contemporary to the end ot the Second Age.

Tom Bombadil is SEVERAL times referred to as pre-dating the entire Elven race and the First Age. So it is rampantly impossible.

Geez, I do not believe I just had to do that. That this idea could have taken serious hold in anyone's mind shakes my faith in the mindset of fans.

nazgulinthedark
well who do you think he is, hum, i wonder

Ushgarak
No chance, the Witch-King is entirely under Sauron's will, and as I have just pointed out, the whole thing is impossible anyway.

lkotbr33
he could not have u never know b/c u were never ment to know by tolkien hes just like someone said b4 a character in a genius's mind

nazgulinthedark
well who do you think he is ush, since he's obviously not the witchking, what is your reasoning behind it, tell us, i want to know

Ushgarak
And all Sauron can do is say that what is clearly said about Tom in the books is a lie, so it fits his case. That is the most contemptible parts of all- just to ignore anything that might contradict what you think. Truly poor.

Anyone with sense can see this- the books make it not so.

And I already said on my page before about my thinking on who he is- I do not know, nobody knows, follow the link I gave for all the info there is.

nazgulinthedark
well if you don't know who he is how can you possibly disagree with anyone who thinks he could be someone, when you yourself does not have a clue on who he might be

Ushgarak
Errr... what is wrong with people's reasonings today?

Just because we do not know WHAT he is, does not mean that we cannot be certain that we know he is not a load of other people!

We know WHO he is, he is Tom Bombadil, we just don't know what he is. We know he is NOT the Witch-King, nor Sauron, Saruman, Radagast, Faramir, Gloin, Dain or the frigging Balrog!

He is almost certainly either a Valar or a Maia.

nazgulinthedark
well ok, i'll go with that
now who do you think he is, i don't care anymore about who i think he is, or who sauron, or anyone else thinks he is, who do you, ushgarak think tom bombadil is, or what he is. what is your all mighty and all correct answer?

Ushgarak
And I am sorry for sounding aggravated but... this really is a bad idea. And the logic behind the idea that just because I do not know what he is I cannot say who he isn't, when I can prove he is not someone, escapes me.

Ushgarak
I don't HAVE an 'almighty and correct' answer and just because I pointed out a few facts there is no need to be like that. No-one has such an answer. He is an ancient and powerful being, most likely a Valar or Maia, whose power is tied to that of the land he inhabits, that is all we know and can ever know, barring Tolkien's ressurection and even he had no answer.

Aurora
Balrog? LOL

I repeat he just IS.

This is what we know:
* He is his own master.
* He is older than the Elves.
* The ring had no power over him.

He is IMO the best character that Tolkien created.

nazgulinthedark
but who is he, this thread wants to know who he is or what he is doesn't it? so who is he?

Cowboyography
I agreenow ushgark, Actually i always felt he was a Maia, thats why I was wondering if he could possibly be the lost blue Wizard. I think it would be very clever if he was the Witch King, however the fact that the Witch King was the King of men at one point, and the fact that Tom wasnt a Numenorian makes it hard to buy. Hmm i really wish there was a solid explanation, Ushgark thanks for the sight, Very helpful!!

Ushgarak
No problem.

However, I should point out that the Witch-King was never the King of all Men. He was most likely a Black Numenorean back at their most fledgling of times.

And it is two Blue Wizards, remember...

And Nazgul, who is he? Like I say, he is Tom Bombadil (or Iarwain Ben-adar as the Elves of old called him). Why would he be anyone else?

Aurora
I personally have no idea WHO he is. I like it that way. wink

nazgulinthedark
nazgul is what the nine ringwraiths are referred to when the are rinding one fell beasts, they are referred to ringwraiths when they are on horses

Cowboyography
Aurora, i agree, he adds great intrest into an already Amazing world. and he will give us great discusion for many more days, However I would really like to haer more opinions on Tom, more theorys to feed my brain!!!! please keep em coming!!

Ushgarak
Errr... Nazgul means Ringwraith.

But in any case, I was actually referring to you by name, as you asked me who Tom was. I didn't mean to refer to the Wraiths.

BingaBonga
Okay, let's take this seriously. He wasn't even mentioned in any other part of the trilogy, right? So, how in the heck could he be the witch king? Tom takes in a man type form, right? He is alive. The Witch-King really isn't. How could he transform like that?

Cowboyography
I FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!!!
TOM IS AN ANOMOLY and Like neo he will ultimatley destroy middle earth????? MABEY no


just kidding i have no f-ing clue!!!!

Aurora
THATS IT U GOT IT!!!!!!!! THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED!

BingaBonga
No offense, but come on, we'll never find out. You would have to ask J.R.R. Tolkien or Christopher Tolkien!

Kitoky
Yeah...man...Tom Bombadil also comes up in one of the side books, was is the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales? Well all I know is he's a resident of the Old Forest with Goldberry and so we just need Exa or someone in here.

BingaBonga
Well, I'm reading the silmarillion right now, so i'll tell you if I find anything. One more question... Isn't this like the 4th Tom Bombadil thread in 2 days? What the f**k?

nazgulinthedark
lets just send a letter to which ever tolkein is alive and ask him! eek! its a great idea!

Cowboyography
I have my own theory, Tom Bombadil is TOLKIEN!!! Tom says he was there before the first Acorn, before the elves came west. He says he was there when there was just darkness. Hmmm that sounds like he was there before anything, much like a story before its written, The author is there seeing everything evolve and come into exitence. It would be a very clever way to show Tolkien watching his own work become a reality and give him a perspective from within the world of middle EArth!! Anotehr hint is that Tom puts on the ring of power and doesnt become invisible, nor is he affected by the power of the ring, He gives it back to Frodo with a smile. Now nobody from middle earth could resist the ring exept possibly the maker, Tolkien!!,
this is %100 my opinion and please feel free to disagree, I would love to hear some others opinions on the matter

nazgulinthedark
I AGREE!!!!

Cowboyography
oh and binga bonga, this may be the forth thread about tom in a day or two, however its obviously one of the most interesting points in the story, hence 3 pages on this post in less than an HOUR!!!!!!!!

nazgulinthedark
yes

sauron
^^NO!^^

i have just been reading all this thread and so many people are saying my beautiful information is all wrong, well damn you itrs not, he made that disguise AFTER becoming the witchking because he wanted to feel good and kind and helpful SOMETIMES,

here that AFTER he became the witchking, so yes, he would have been a lord of men at one point

he would not take the ring as....

1. that would mean he would have to reveal himself, atake the ring to sauron (it is stated they would not keep the ring as "they are in no way decieved as to the real lordship of the ring"wink

2. if he did reveal himself he could no longer transform into tom bombadil and therefore never feel happy or good again

sauron
and cowboy its not, mine got 3 pages in HALF an hour so damn you, damn you all who do not believe my theory

( yes i am aware that the chances are slim of this being true, but its somethinmg for me to believe and have faith in, and ive never had that before, so excuse me, plus it sets me apart from people in my beliefs)

nazgulinthedark
no one understands what you are trying to say, your atempt is worthless and piontless, you may aswell stop here

sauron
whos attempt mine? sad AWW well look at my last post to see why im sticking by it

nazgulinthedark
yes your attempt, no one belives it. you would have noticed so if you did read the last couple pages

sauron
i did read them, i dont care what other people think about it, im standing by it, i mean what would the world be like if everyone acted, lived, thought the same way, sure we would have world peace, but wheres the fun in that lol,

nazgulinthedark
if everyone liked the same stuff, who would decide who liked what? whose personality would they follow? the fool, or the cool person? in this here thread your point of veiw, truthful as it may be, is the fool, therefore good luck trying to find followers. but i am here, and i still think the witchking is tom bombadil.

Aurora
I think that it is a good theory. I don't personally belive it. For many solid reasons of my own. But none the less it is a good sound theory.

sauron
its a solid theory, thank you, and i find it just a lottle bit fun to believe, now if this turns serious il not defend it till the end, because it is wrong but until that day, long like tom bombadil of angmar, and if none of you will accept that then so be it

nazgulinthedark
i just said i accepted it stick out tongue

Aurora
big grin

nazgulinthedark
roll eyes (sarcastic)

sauron
plus bombadil is not in silmarillion he is in

the adventures of tom bombadil, it is a separate book

and nazgul sending a letter to chris tolkien would not work as he does not know, not even tolkine (jrr) himself knew, as is stated in "the letters of jrr tolkien"

sauron
plus i know you accept it big grin for which i am very thankful to you

shadowy_blue
Now I'm starting to think that Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar Himself (creator of everything Middle-earth).

He said he came before everything, before Elves and Ents and before rivers and all.

The Ring of Power has no power over him.

He can see Frodo even he's wearing the Ring. Now Illuvatar made everything and everyone so of course he can see all his creations.

He tried to help them when things have gone to seem hopeless but still he let them do some things their own way. To think that the Hobbits cannot defend and save themselves against some forces of Evil because they themselves are not entirely sure of what's going on, and Gandalf wasn't with them, and the Fellowship wasn't formed yet, He was there to look over them before they went to Bree and met Aragorn.

Just like our own God. Nobody really knows who and what He is, or is He even real. No certain explanations about his identity just like Tom. God can see us through everything and there's no way that we can hide from him because he's the one who made us. I believe that He's always there to help us when all things goes weary and almost impossible to solve but still He lets us use our own instincts to do what we have to do about something else.

So yeah, it's just my opinion but I think Tom Bombadil is the almighty Illuvatar. smile

sauron
no tolkien stated many times illuvatar (eru) NEVER EVER took on physical form

shadowy_blue
dang, that kills it. Oh well...thanks though. smile

Hegemon875
plus gandalf says that even tom would fall to sauron.

sauron
because he is the witchking big grinbig grinbig grinbig grinbig grin

Corlindel
Sauron: Nice try but I must agree with Ush.

Who or what is Tom Bombadil is the great mistery remaining of Tolkien's world. For me it is a door open Tolkiens left for us. I read all the books to and tried to understand what he is. But no one has the right to be the owner of true about Tom.

Of course that each of us may have different oppinions, and mine it is that Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the Spirit of Arda.

I repeat the advise of Ush to this site http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

Search Bombadil and links about him.
smile

Ariadne
Yeah, the Enclyclopia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) has everything Middle-earth. I look things up constantly on it when I'm too lazy to go get the books.

Member.
Tom Bombadill is not the Witch King.

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