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Sorry for yet another question, but just who/what is this guy? Why does he have the powers/abilities he has? Is it explained in the histories or in another work?

I'm sure Exa will give us an essay

Here is an info site I found What is the nature of Tom Bombadil

have u read the books? anyway i think he's with goldberry in the house in the forest... it's not in movies, they had to take it out...

It's so sad that they took the Old Forest and Tom out of the FotR! I love him. And the little I can say about him information wise is that has been around just about forever, and he is his own master, and nothing else really affects him. He's one of the few things that's mysterious in Tolkien's works though.
"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954

Tom Bombadill was a veryancient person who lived near the Barrow Downs, and assisted the hobbits when they had a run in with Old Willow and again at the Barrow Downs. The One Ring had no effect on him. He's got a few chapters devoted to him in FoTR. Exa could problably do soooooo much better than me.................

i dont beleive that tolkien anywhere specifically states who or what bombadil is. i read and essay where someone beleived that he was one of the valar (aule and yavanna-bombadil and goldberry). the person who wrote the essay made a pretty good argument supporting his theory and he adressed about every thing you could think of but now i cant remember where i read it. dang i should have book marked it!!!!

hypernova thanks for that link, it adresses the aule thing pretty well, lol.

i heard somewhere tolkien meant for him to be the witchking in disguise and at first i thought BULL but there was a load of valid points, still dont believe it though

I doubt that Tom's one of the Valar. They haven't come to Middle Earth since the defeat of Morgoth.

Tom Bombadil is a very old person.

I wasn't asking who he was, i've read the book, i'm asking about some insight into what he actually is.

Read that essay that was linked, it provides most of the information I can imagine.

as for tom hes not a hobbit but hes not a big folk either he was there before every one before melkore and the dundain and the men of westerneise he was there before the great fortres of angband he was there before the hobbits enhabited the shire and the barrow wights took over the downs.as for his powers i guess its because he's been in middle earth for so long that he has powers over his own land and thats important because he only has power over his own land as he said in the fellowship he has power over thy old forrest and the downs because hes lived there for so long so i guess thats it

Oh, and thanks a lot for the link Hypernova, how impolite of me.

Tom Bombadil is pretty old.

I like the ode to Bombadil (if u can call it that) in the EE TT!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...............i'm not even gonna try to answer this one............YOU ALL KNOW what i'm gonna say

thanks... but i never said that he was a hobbit

FOUND IT LOL

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

That makes a very interesting point. An interesting point, that I in no way belive. If he was the Witch King, what was stopping him from getting the ring at the beginning. I have always wondered why the ring had NO effect on Tom at all....... But after wondering for ages I have come to the conclusion that Tokien wrote Tom this way. He wants us to wonder, to have theories, discussions even.

Tom is Tom. He is unsettleing to me. When I read him, I am contantly wondering wether or not he is purely good or not. He is his own master, the book says so, he answers to no one........ IMAO.

yeah but still, its a good point nonetheless, almost makes you believe it doesnt it?

As for the nod in TTT EE, I am split down the middle at wether I liked it or not. Before the lines were said by Treebeard, PJ never hinted at Tom. You could almost belive that the hobbits did meet Tom, you just never seen it happen. But now that Tom and Old Man Willow are nodded at in TTT you have to admitt to yourself that Tom never met the Hobbits......

I just can't think that Tom was EVIL..... Even if I think he is not purely good, I would hate to think him evil....

sorry sauron but iam with aurora if bombadill was the witch king what ws stopping him or her for witch meaning girl from taking the ring but he or she assisted the hobbits out of his/her land when he/she could of killed the hobbits and taken the ring.

i have no idea thats why i said it ALMOST makes you believe it

Ppl can make u believe almost anything....

tom didnt take the ring as he didnt want goldberry to know he was evil witchking because its the only bit of sex on the side hes had for 2000 years, and only he will ever get being all decaying

lol its almost foolproof

I doubt that Tom could have been the Witch King w/o Goldberry knowing. If he is evil she had to be too. And that is even more unlikely.

him being the witchking is impossible. you make some good points, but in the councel of elrond when there talking about tom, they say that he is the oldest whereas treebeard, elrond, galadriel, and many others are older then the witchking. in that same chapter it gives a pretty good explanation why the ring had no effect on tom. I am starting to beleive that he is an odity that tolkien loved and put him in the story to throw everybody off, as someone suggested earlier.

Tom Bombadil the Witch King??!?! Duuuude, no freaking way man. The Witch King is the leader of the Nazguls, Tom Bombadil is an inhabitant of the Old Forest - completely two different people.

As for the hobbits knowing Tom, I don't quite remember, but how do they explain their swords? Merry's in particular is very important, as only that sword could have killed the Witch King. I wonder how PJ is going to handle that...

lol im not sayin i believe it, just it makes good points, and its a bit of fun and has got alot of peoples minds working

Tom Bombadil is annoying and stupid, and ruins the beginning of Fellowship. I wanted an adventure book, not a freakin' musical comedy.

ring a din ring a ding dillo what was that vengance its tom bombadillooooooooo

Wow, I'm feeling alot of built up anger here.....

I personally think he is the personification of Tolkiens genious.....

lol sorry about the immeadiate wind up vengance rong a ding a doll merry ol......i just couldnt help my...tom bombadillo..... self

WITCH KING=TOM all will believe

The idea of a 'nature spirit', though, is certainly possible within Tolkien's universe. Though this area of his cosmology is never directly addressed, Middle-earth seems at times to be full of spirits - at least some trees apparently have spirits, for example (consider Old Man Willow, or the Huorns of Fangorn). Consider too:

"'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them..."
Legolas, from The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, The Ring Goes South


There are numerous other examples of this kind: it is clear that in Tolkien's universe, the stuff of nature is somehow more alive, and more aware, than in the modern world. It is a short step from this to the idea of 'spirits of nature', but a much longer one to 'spirits of nature' that wear yellow boots and live in houses.

And then the guy goes on to explain how this could mean Tom was on Earth before the Vala. Is he blind? The statement contradicts that - it says, quite clearly, he was there under the stars during this time. The stars were made by Elbereth, a Vala. So much for that waste of space

The "nature spirit" explaination is really the only one (of 2, read on,) that holds any water (it definetely explains Goldberry.) But whereas Goldberry is a nature spirit of something specific, Tom is the embodiment of the nature of Middle Earth. It is possible that he's Ea, if i'm understanding the term correctly, an embodiment of that or the fire that Melkor sought greatly, the "power" that makes the world work...but that's the only other possibility I can think of that holds any water, and it's quite similar to the "nature spirit" thing. You can either accept that or say he's an enigma that's beyond our understanding or whatever along those lines. That's my opinion after looking in to it pretty deeply.

If your opinion is otherwise, I don't mean insult, that's just my opinion as I said.

a simple error, every work has them,

thanks sauron!!!
tom bombadil

what? Well, I guess that we never get to see what Tom looks like, but I don't imagine him like that...

By the way, thanks sauron. It obviously took a while to get all that information, and its very good to know, though I got a bit confused, not anymore

tom bombadil
witch king

oh... Orcs hehe Viggo
(It's opposite day!)

where's exa???

where's exa???

lets get some people in here who also KNOW THEIR STUFF ......and then we'll get a perfect answer

hey, i think sauron is doing good here...

She's just enjoying reading saurons perfect answers

now look everyone the chances of tom bombadil being the witchking are very slim, but hey it took me a hell of a long time for that, its a good case, a bit of fun and its also the best post iv ever done so dont dump on it too much please

alot of people have said its a mistake when he says 'I was here under the stars even before the dark lord came from outside' << i believe that that means melkor comeing from outside MIDDLE earth from valinor, and not outside all together so that would explain nephalims problem with the *under the stars* incident

I also think outside means morgoth (or sauron?) coming from valinor - if this wasnt supposed to be veeery early id say he means morgoths return from the outer void but this is nonsense in that context.

here people

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html

knock yourselves out,


your all very much welcome

exa will have some fun with that one lol

Wow nice, nice, nice... *reading*

good isnt it?

Good indeed
But Ive just read a very little part of it
will finish after lunch

oh i got book of lost tales part one and two yesterday, was my birthday, but on the calendar for ppls bdays on here IT MISSED ME OUT, so got no appreciation *sob*

Ooooooh poor Sauron *sings* happy birthday toooo yoooou... oops sorry wrong topic but who cares...


Hm lost tales? Great book but quite complicated to read cuz the names change all the time...

lol its great cos i got about 200 pound, and i have found a whole side of a book shop dedicated to tolkien, so yey

and thank you exa, *hugs* *slips ring of power into exa pocket*

Oh thank you *hugs back*

and its not just because you will fall under my dominon, (then there will be four,)

lol

exa are you aware of how off topic we are here, we are talking about rings, (and four)

Yeees I know... Thats why I was talking about opening a new thread or somethin bout that... I hate being offtopic...

lol we might not be of topic, what if, tom is a child produced from morgoth me witchking and you (thats 4)

Hm nice question
Eeeevil evil tommy...
but
how should that work?!?
I think this would yet be a new topic since its not confirmed by Tolkien :P

lol yep ive made that thread, and we have gone dangerously off topic in there too, god-damn we suck today as long as we enjoy ourselves

From an obvious novice in the study of Tolkiens' work. I am very impressed and happy I stumbled upon this thread.

I Learned lot. Alas I am going to have ot go back and reread the entire series of books. I had no idea just how vast it all was.
And I never knew the book Silmarillion existed.

Many of the thing Sauron referred to I did not know existed.
Is there som sort of list off all the related workes by Tolkien? SOmthing I could follow to know all the history as well as you do?

Like the letters you referred to, were those part of a collection?

must read Tolkien, LOTR Trilogy including Appendixes, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and finally the Lost tales of Tolkien...........I havent found any other works, You Sauron?

Could Tom be Gaia?

that book there u metiond, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, whats it about??

It's a collection of poems, one called "The Adv. of TB.", hence the name.
Practically no information about Tommy

there are 12 poems or so and only 2 mention Tom, i was really exited to read, tenI was greatly dissapointed.

Once again. Im repeating myself here, but:

His nature is quite complicated. People far wiser than me have not been able to decipher what he is. If you do a search on Google, you'll find a buttload of essays. Most of them are quite interesting to read.

Tolkien said in his letters:
"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

I don't know what he is, but it is my guess, that he is some sort of spirit of nature, a part of the world from the time it was created.



This quote was taken from this essay , wich is a mouthfull, but worth the read (Atleast the parts I have read are interesting and well-founded). Also check this one .

I'm not really sure what he represents outside of the Tolkien mythology, but it would be an interesting study.

Bombadil = Tolkien himself

Think about it,Tom was around "before the first acorn", "before the elves came east", he watched middle earth evolve, much likeTolkiendidfrom his position,so yes Bombadil is a god of godS! he is Tolkien!!

well i would firstly read the hobbit before lotr (background information)
then onto lotr which you will understand better, then work your way into the silmarillion, unfinished tales next, and lastly lost tales 1-2

^^there are alot more than that, but everything you relly need to know is in there^^

TOM IS NOT TOLKIEN! TOM IS WITCH KING!!!

PROVE IT!!!

I HAVE ATLEAST 100 PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THAT TOM IS THE WITCH KING AND YET WHO SAYS TOM IS TOLKIEN ? OH MAYBE 25 PEOPLE.

sigh, i didnt want to have to do this again, FOR THE FIFTH TIME but you asked for it so......

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^^^walked right into that didnt you^^^ *high fives kit*

Another win for Sauron, muwahahah!!

that takes me up to a grand total of............... *drum roll*

TWO

Hehe
Yes Tommy is Witchy :]

Bombadil being Tolkien is a very interesting idea. But that would already be something like an allegory which Tolkien does not like.

why are there these threads NO- ONE knows tolkien himself did not know



although some of us 'believers' know his true identity

'believers' I'm content with just believing that Tom is the Witch King

thats what i mean lol

Yes, I was just restating your statement dear friend.

Get a room you two.

Tom = Witch King... Bullshit.

If Tom really was the Witch King, why didn't he take the ring when he had the chance? In fact he actually wore it! And he could easily have killed of the Hobbits when he visited them, as they didn't have the weapons that could hurt him. Instead he let them go and rescued them in the Barrow-Downs where they could aquire the weapons that would later kill him!!!

Of course he got this hot ***** hanging around, and we know that girls like bad guys. But still.

Because some people are too frickin' lazy to find the information themselves.

the reason elrond wished to not give tom the ring for protection was because as he said even tom would be overpowered if sauron had time to gather all of his forces he could eventually overwhelm bombadil and also bombadil did not want the ring but if he was the witch king why would he refuse?

good point, if the witch king would have given Sauron the ring back, he would surely have gotten alot of power from him

before the dark lord came from outside, outside middle earth, the witchking used to be a king of men on middle earth, there while sauron was on numenor, when sauron left numenor after its downfall he went back to middle earth and made the rings of power and gave them to elves, but then too men, so witchking was there before sauron, just not as the witchking yet, murezor or something i believe, and the old eldest lie was just a cover up lol

and no andres he would not get anything, they are his slaves, so basically if the witchking got the ring he had no choice bu to give it to sauron "they were in no way decieved as to the real lordship of the ring" real rewards come when someone has done something good they didnt HAVE to do

We BELIEVE THAT TOM IS THE WITCH KING!! AND NO ONE CAN CHANGE MY FAITH!

yes tolkien can when u see him in heaven

sheesh

tolkien didnt even know your head is emptier than a hermits adress book isnt it

The history of Tom Bombadil is not spoken of in any of Tolkien's book. He has yet to explain what kind of creature Mr. Bombadil is. Unfortuantly Tolkien died, and never explained about Tom.

No way in hell can Tom be the witch king one simple fact tom is flesh he has skin bllod physical form witch king is unable to to physical form or better yet his form is only n wraith world which n no way could he appear n the unwraith world with a phsical form that jus one simple fact

I truely believe that tom is the valar Aule the smith and gold berry is his wife the valar yavanna
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:


In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves.
When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.

To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."

As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:


There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."

Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.

Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.

When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time

Exactly :]
Hey of course this seems nonsense to everyone who ever read anything about Bombadil but for me Tommy is Witchy

Not you too. Have you all gone insane????!?

No we havent
We've gone witchy

Just wonderin who thinks this guy rox? I mean he's awesome. but What is he exactly? What did tolkien mean when he put him in the story?

Speak!http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/msn-wink.gif

???? what?

Tom Bombadil~ Maia master of the Old Forest. He was probably a Maia spirit that came to Middle Earth in the Ages of Starlight. A stout merry spirit that cannot be touched by evil. He never leaves the Old Forest but instead lingers to keep everything bothe evil and good under control.

There ya have it. Next time you make a post search it to see if someone else has started the same thing. And dont post silly things such as what.

Are we still going on about Tom? Yay!! Tom's getting noticed!!! Wooohooooo

I'll try to remember your advice..
are you saying my post is silly??? or are you saying tom is silly???

Tom Bombadil is not silly

Okay once again...... (yes Kit Tom is getting noticed, woohooo)

Let me give u a rundown of what Tom is: (these are all assumptions due to Tolkien purposely leaving out alot about Tom)

* Tom is Tolkien in M.E. ( my theory)
* Tom is the Witch King (thought up and inspired by the wonderful sauron, and supported by all members of the Nazgul, Moty, Witchy, and Tom club. And a theory that I totally support also)
* Tom is a Maia

Here's what we know, He is older than the Elves, He is his own master, The Ring had no power over him

Choose the theory you support but I am telling you the Witchy story will dominate. LOL

tom is the witchking? plz explain i would love to here the story.

THE ELVES ARE OLDER THEN THE WITCHKING SO HE CAN'T BE HIM AND IF HE WAS HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE RING FROM FRODO IN THE FIRST PLASCE

ah very observant...sory about ur theory. unless u can explain what lord andres said...

YOU MUST'VE NOT READ THE TEXT IN WHICH SAURON HAS POSTED SEVERAL TIMES!!! Which gives examples why Tom MAY be the Witch King, you don't have to raining upon our day like that.


Give us some more damn credit because we're not that damn dumb to truly believe that Tom is the damn Witch King, we're just f*cking joking to make us feel better that Tom wasn't in the first damn movie!! *takes a deep breath*

*breaths in deeply* OK we so need sauron here kit. He can debate this so well he has had a lot of practice on this subject.

*is deeply miffed*

We can handle I believe Kit, w/o sauron or Exa we can do it. I believe in us!

*takes out and waves the flag of the Witch King*

We have a flag?

No no no nothing is silly. Just trying to point something out. Although i sometimes post what. He he he.

This is not thought up it's a very intelligent theory (or proof ) and part of one of the best threads here.
And, yes, I absolutely do support this theory, and that's why I love Tommy.

In book, I must admit I didnt really like him the first time I read it. He was kinda strange, didnt really suit Middle-earth and the whole athmospere in the books. But the more often I read it, the more I start to like him. He's a wonderful character because he is simply special.
And he is something about which I cant think of any similar character in any other story.
He's himself and that's his secret, his riddle. He just IS, like I think Goldberry says. And that's what makes him be one of the persons most talked about and discussed.


Long live Witchy, the Tommy, the Moth! (and the Penguin)

well now i understand a little.

thats the eigth time ive had too see that

i wrote that in the first bombadil thread right? and since then its been in every other to, thread

Lord Andres can't recognized a joke even if one was about him. -.-

joke? hes not realy the witch king?

FOOLS!

Well we don't really know if he's the Witch King or not, we just like to believe he's the Witch King!

GO BOMBADIL AND HIS PIMPIN' MACE!

Go Tommy, Witchy, and Mothy

GO TOMMY, MOTHY, AND WITCHY

Erm - yes.

But what about poor, poor Goldberry? We cant just let her stay at home alone just with some barrowies

hey i was just wondering gandalf said that treebeard was the oldest living thing in all of middle earth... yet tom claims he was there before the mountains and the stars and yadda yadda... what the whos lying here

also what race is goldberry she seems ageless at one with nature and beautiful so she could be an elf but ... i think tom(the little riddle that he is) would ahve to have someone more interesting as a partner im looking at u exa cos from what i can tell ur the guy i should be asking... no offence kit or sauron or ne other wise tolkien scholars that ive left out

good question... I think Bombadil is older than treebeard, especially treebeard as an ent; he was one of the first trees taught to speak by the elves (that's how they became real ents) but as bombadil says that he already was there before stars and whatever, he has to be the older one (if he does not lie, of course; it would solve many (though by far not all) riddles if Bombadil would just be some crazy guy thinking he was the best


And about Goldberry... hm... She might be something similar to a Maia because she says this stuff like that she was the daughter of this riverwoman and so on.
In one of the Letters, Tolkien says that she "represents the seasonal changes of the lands."
I assume that she was a maia of Ulmo (or of one of Ulmo's female Maiar); daughter doesn't have to mean that she is the real daughter, this can also be interpreted as a daughter-in-mind. Maybe she was also someone who drowned in the Withywindle and was sent back by Ulmo or something...

thanks man but that yet again raises the question as to why gandalf said that treebeard was the oldest being on middle earth. does this simply mean that the elves that "awakened" him have been killed or have gone over the sea? btw thanks exa

I guess the Ents were always there they just haven't been awakened and Treebeard was the outest out of all of them.

Did he really say "oldest being" or "one of the oldest"? Or perhaps "one of the oldest who remember..."? Or one of the oldest who really come from middle-earth?

No, that can't be.
In the very beginning, there were 144 elves; and among them Nurwe and Morwe, Finwe and Ingwe, Elwe and Olwe and Elmo; and of these, at least Ingwe and Olwe are still alive, but in Valinor, where the others also dwell; the oldest ELVES still in Middle-earth were Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Glorfindel and perhaps some others that had already lived in Beleriand, though for example Glorfindel already had died.
If we assume that Tommy was a Maia, it could be that Gandalf meant Treebeard was the oldest creature still living who really CAME from Middle-earth; unlike the Maiar.
If he does mean all creatures, his sentence would be a lie nevertheless; he himself is older than the world, as are also Sauron, Saruman and the Balrog.

or perhaps mayebe gandalf gave in to the stress of bleaching every day and carcked up and lost his mind temporarily

Maybe ^^ I really think there is something wrong with this sentence which surprises me, thinking of Tolkien's love for details.

Does anybody have the full quote and the sentences before?

Okie, I know that did not come from you.

firstly about bombadil and the witch king its not him, gandalf goes to talk to him at the end of rotk book and the witch king died and the witch king was a man bombadil isnt really but he still kicks ass

Yes we know

whoa imagine being one of the first elves, and still being alive, would they feel old or not, they are immortal but still three ages is a long time