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So what would happen if Darth Vader had a duel with Yoda? Obviously, they're both really good, but who would win? especially if Vader did what he did in ep. 5 with the flinging of stuff at Luke. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/starwars.gif

I reckon it would be an amazing duel to watch. And I love that duel in Empire...brilliant.

why didn't he ever do that again? it seemed to work pretty well. then poor little Yoda would have to try and fly through bits of metal to get to him.

I thought Yoda did well dodging Dooku's attacks.

that was Doku though. he's got NOTHING on Vader.

well the Vader in the old movies, is pretty slow, I don't think that yoda would have a problem striking him down, just look at how fast he is against Doku, and look how slow vader is agains everyone he fights,
GO YODA!!!

True.

YODA!! GO YODA!!

Actually my Dad made me laugh when we were watching Clones last. Yoda was coming around the corner, you know which part yeah?? Anyways, my Dad put on this Yoda voice and goes: "Kick your ass I will." It was SO funny!!

Since when is Vader slow??? there is a reason why he was able to drive the Jedi to the brink of extinction.

he is slow if you compare him to Anakin of EpII or Ob1 from EpI, that's because he aged and is more machine

you can't compare ANYTHING to that pathetic excuse for a jedi, Anakin. his performance wasn't exactly astounding.

I think Yoda would win because he has more knowledge of the force but then again so would Vador as his training was finished by palpatine. But deffinatly Yoda

and Yoda was a Jedi Master. Vader wasn't. forgot about that.......and the dark side isn't stronger, it only seems that way in your mind.

Yoda would win, but it would still be a spectacular duel.

In the Infinities comic of Empire, Yoda seriously messes with Vader's mind, rather than taking out his lightsaber and killing him! Then Vader just lops off his arm and kicks him though...

uhhh.......... right.

The dark side is stronger, thats why people go over to the dark side to gain more power, "becasue thats all bad guy want"

And who's saying vader was slow in 4,5,6, maybe that is becasue he as no need to move any faster, it was not like he could not move any faster he was mearly playing with luke most of the time not trying to kill him, he wanted to convert him to the dark side not kill him, there was plenty more speed left in the old bloke, why run when walk will do?

I have this awful image of Vader pulling his own arm off and beating Yoda to death with it!!!

vader isn't trying in the OT, he has no desire to kill luke. Also, Yoda and Vader fought in ESB-Infinities. Vader won.

Luke is one thing. Yoda is quite another. i doubt Vader had any emotional attachments to him like he did with Luke.

Darth vaders fight scenes on screen were nowhere near as fast or skillful as yodas fight scenes in episode 2

it only seems that way because Vader didn't fly through the air.

Vaders fights are still slower than, say, darth mauls fights (and most lightsaber fights of the prequals)

Darth Maul was more than likely younger than Vader, and he wasn't wearing a giant suit either. at any rate, Vader was a much more powerful sith than Maul, since he was able to exterminate almost the entire Jedi race.

What would happen if the 2nd generation of clone troopers (that became the stormtroopers), were clones of anakin, instead of Jango?

they'd look better?

Would they have force powers?

I dont want to think about a duel like that.

i would certainly hope not. i don't think Jedi powers are entirely genetic, anyway.

and so does Vader. DUH.

I'd be pissed if any of the two lost...never want to see that duel

i'm not saying it would actually HAPPEN, just wondering what would happen if it did. it'd be an awsome duel either way.

according to the episode I DVD commentary, Vader was slow because his bionics hindered him. also, obi-wan was slow and out of practice, and Vader never meant to kill Luke.
Vader would win in the end because of his power in the force. According to current rumors, episode III will showcase Vader's true powers.

yeah. what he said.

Yoda would get his ass handed to him. Think about it. The main reason the Vader fights are slow is because we didn't have CGI back then. Vader has enough power over the force to compensate for his mechanical body. He would destroy Yoda, I mean Yoda even knew this, which is why he left. He couldn't defeat either Sidious or Vader.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas used CGI to redo that fight. Bot Obi-Wan and Vader deserve more credit. Look at Dooku, he's 80+ and he's doing flips in battle. Vader could as well.

Vader's too cool for flips. EVil cool guys don't do flips. only the cool good guys

Uh he has, in the second Movie.
I would Bet on Vader though, He is just so much stronger than Yoda in a true lightsaber Clash, but if It came to battle of Force power, youda would own. Vader couldn't throw crap at Yoda, It would come flying back at him.

maybe. Yoda had some issues with Duku tossing that pillar in Ep.2

But Yoda had no problem absorbing Duku's lightning and shooting it back at him, that was cool. I think in the OT Yoda is too old to do his old acrobatics against Vader.

how come vader never uses force lightning?? is there an explanation for this??

maybe because both arms are mechanical??

or because Vader wasn't completely evil

I get slightly weary of people saying "Vader is slow".

How is Vader slow? He had no REASON to move any faster.

He was so good at what he did, he easily beat Obi-Wan and Luke. He was actually toying with them.

You also can't count Vader getting whooped by Luke at the end of Jedi either, because who's to say Vader wasn't LETTING him lash out - that's what he wanted after all. Vader wanted Luke to thrash him, it was his plan all along.

It's safe to say Vader was holding back against Luke.

Yoda and Dooku were almost at a standoff, and it's safe to say Vader is better than Dooku, being younger and probably a lot stronger.

People say "he's getting older and is part machine". I was always under the impression Vader would be even BETTER being part man part droid, he would be stronger, and more durable. Since when does being mechanical mean they are slow? If anything, with Vader being a robotics expert himself, he's be constructed from the fastest robotics there are. General Grievous will prove just how a Vader-esque being can move.

When Vader was getting frustrated towards Luke (just before he cuts off his hand) in Empire, he's moving very fast, and very intense.

Seeing as Vader is very gifted in force strength and also has mechnical strength, any lightsaber clashes would result in him winning. Yoda would constantly be on his toes. Even if Yoda lands the odd blow, Vader would be unfazed anyway.

I could see Yoda doing a runner from Vader.

possibly. Vader may have been holding back sometimes, but he was still willing to destroy Luke and would have givent he chance. Vader said himself that Luke's hatred could destoy him and when Luke goes beserk in Return of the Jedi he was releaseing all his anger

Yeah, and Vader was still holding back. Vader knew when Luke went to kill the Emperor, that they were getting to him, their plan was working - why the hell would Vader start to annihilate him now?

Vader let Luke open up the whoop-ass on him.

The anger within Vader - as opposed to the very cold and calmer Count Dooku - would definitely give Yoda a run for his money.

The hate and anger within Vader is probably only next to the Emperor.

This kinda begs the question - who is the more full of hate and anger (not necessarily the most evil) - Vader or The Emperor. I'd go with Vader. The Emperor has had everything fall into place so nicely, wheras Anakin/Vader feels like he's been dumped on most of his life.

The emperor didn't have any good in him. Vader did. that was the reason, if any, he had for holding back, if indeed he did. however, he really didn't hold back against Obi-Wan. probably due to some resentment he had for him. and Vader's very cold and calm

Nonsense, Vader in the suit was slow and crippled. Lucas even said that when Vader had his lava pit bath, he lost most of his powers.

Yoda would wax the floor with the OT Vader's ass. Vader would get sliced and diced into a million pieces before he could even THINK about taking out his lightsaber.

Whoa, Vader may have lost most of his powers, but you have to realize at what a level he was at in the end of Episode 3. he was the Jesus who turned evil. Considering the darkside was already way more powerful, and how much power could flow through him (due to his high midichlorian count) Before the injuries you could argue he is more powerful than Sidious.
After, he is 20% less powerful than Sidious. Lucas said that already. Considering his body his more durable, the special armor he has, (it did block Luke's saber in ESB) and the fact that the darkside is stronger, Darth Vader would kill Yoda.
I hate to say it man, but it's true.
Not to mention Vader is at the same level of lightsaber skill as Yoda. (according to Nick Gillard) The Dark Lord just wins.

My views are that master Yoda would defeat darth Vader. If Obi-WAn managed to deafeat Anakin when he was at his strongest and most powerful. Obi Wan wasn't defeated by Darth Vader...he waited to see if Luke and co were safe and could escape. Thats why ObiWan switches off his light saber and disapears before darth strikes his body. So basically when Darth became a machine he became restricted and not being able to flow freely like a jedi should. Yoda would win by far.

Given their physical status in the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, I think Vader would win the fight between him and Yoda, even after seeing Episode II. Yoda is far too old to put up an effective fight against Vader when Vader was at his prime.

we aren't talking about vader at his prime

we are talking about vader in the OT

Age has nothing to do with the fact how he fights. If you notice Yoda struggles to walk and can Hardly breathe, he only uses the force as defense and when he uses it he its unstopable! Vader would see Yoday and put up a good fight, but Yoda is the most powerful! Vader is over confident and has too many thoughts clouding his mind.

I'm talking about Vader in V and VI where the empire is rebuilding the death star.

What Yoda are we talking about?

Yoda from V

yeah. that one

well that Yoda is coming to the end of his days. But who knows...we didnt get a chcne to see his Saber skills. its a tough call when it comes down to it.

Well, Yoda must have been scared enough to go into hiding at least. Vader is the chosen one and all that buisness, if it matters.

I keep hearing all this Vader is slow cause he's a machine.....cars are machines..they do go fast. Ive yet to meet a person who is stronger or faster than a machine (one designed for speed anyway). And remember, looks can be deceiving, Yoda doesnt move fast when he doesnt have to.....he walks all slow with a cane, but when its time to move, he MOVES. Same with Vader, if he had to, im sure he could too. Vader would own him, i think that Yoda still might have a soft spot for "Anakin" and would try to turn him, rather than kill him.

not neccessarily. he didn't try that with Dooku, one of his former padawans, so he probably wouldn't be inclined to do that with Vader who is about ten times worse than Dooku was. But Vader's machanical nature doesn't slow him down at all. if it did then he would have had a lot more trouble exterminateing the bulk of the Jedi.

Yea but i also see Anakin as being more compassionate that Dooku, even as a Jedi. And maybe Yoda would of had certain connection with Anakin, knowing all the personal struggles and other crap that he had to go through. I dont know, it was just an idea. But i still think Vader would beat him. But you also have to admit, that if Vader would concede to Yoda, Yoda would take pity on him, or be more apt to help him , rather than just "strike down a sith" ya know what i mean?

well, Obi-Wan didn't try to talk down Vader, and he had an even closer connection to him than Yoda. with vader and Yoda it'd probably be all out, regardless of who he used to be.

Darth Vader would own Yoda in a second no questioned ask the dark side is stronger!

no it isn't.

Mmm...I'm not sure, Vader is indeed strong, but would he be strong enough to defeat Yoda? I don't think so, he was so weak to betray the Emperor so he would lose it from Yoda, he's WEAK. If it was the Emperor vs Yoda, I would say the Emperor wins.
The galactic empire was defeated because of Vader's WEAKNESS...

And there was me thinking it was because Vader turned good.

In fact, the Empire was defeated through Vader/Anakins STRENGTH, if anything.

well the Yoda in AOTC could probably beat Vader I think, the one in ROTJ most likely not

yeah, the young Anakin in AOTC would probably kick Luke's butt. But even when he was older Vader was still formiddable. Luke only started beating him because he gave in to his anger. Young Yoda vs. AOTC Anakin would be awesome.

Actually, the galactic empire was defeated because lando and crew blew that shit up.....Luke, Vader, and Palps would gone up in smoke with it....BUT they were also defeated because of ANAKIN"S STRENGTH...

good point. Vader can't really be described as being a weak person.

HE IS WEAK IN THE HEART, WHAT THEY CALL EMOTION YOU KNOW...
Anyway I really loved Vader for years, and then I saw the light (or darkness) in Palpatine, and now I'm only angry on Vader 'cause he killed an important leader to save his son, that is emotion!

I agree, vader should have killed palpatine years ago, ....anyway I don't belive that Vader is weaker than Anakin

emotions are not neccesarily a weakness. anger afterall is an emotion, and that was what set him on the dark side in the first place.

Youre not understanding what im saying....im saying it wasnt Vaders weakness.....it was ANAKIN"S strength. Like, not that Vader gave up on the darkside, but Anakin fought his way back from the darkside, hence becoming more powerful than he ever had been. Vader didnt save Luke, Anakin did...

And youre saying Palps didnt use emotion?? What is anger?....its an emotion. So i guess, that was his WEAKNESS, huh?

i thought his overconfidence was his weakness.

I thought being weaker than vader was his weakness

or that. Now if Yoda were to get angry and Anakin got angry at the same time, that would be interesting.

Actually, the galactic empire was defeated because lando and crew blew that shit up.....Luke, Vader, and Palps would gone up in smoke with it....BUT they were also defeated because of ANAKIN"S STRENGTH...

NOT TRUE
Had Luke turned, Vader would have died and Sidious and Luke would have escaped. Luke had plenty of time to drag Vader's crippled ass around after Sidious' demise. The real reason Sidious was defeated was because the chosen one rejoined the light and his son saved him.

sure.

So let me see if i have this right...

"ah Luke thanks for joining the darkside" Palps

"no problem, let me kill my dad, and we'll split and go get a brew." Luke

"ok but hurry, im sure we're gonna win this war, as ive said many times, but lets just hurry up and leave anyway." Palps

"ok, im glad we have to leave for no reason,....but lets do it." Luke


no...i dont think so, if Luke would not have thrown away his lightsaber, he would of fought palps and they would have remained on the Deathstar for one reason or another, and they all would have died.

I don't think he would've fought with Palpy. He was more concerned with Vader. Yoda only said he needed to defeat Vader, he didn't say anything about the emperor.

"Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"
How does he not mention the Emperor?

he didn't defeat the emperor directly. by turning Vader back, the emperor was defeated.

But they all still would have died in the explosion. they would have no reason to just up and leave. Palps didnt forsee that happening. And Luke turning would have had NO bearing whatsoever on the battle of endor or the space battle. The same end result would have been acheived. The only difference woul dbe that those 3 would have died on board....plain and simple.

If Luke had turned he would have turned against the rebels and probably prevent Han and the others from destroying the shield generator. Paply knew exactly what was happening. He just didn't think it would go against him.

how would he have stopped them......they were still fighting by the time Lando went in there. So luke would have stopped them, but Vader and Palps wouldnt have? No.....they all would have died.

Luke knew every facet of their plans, he could have easily found a way to stop them

the shield generator was already blown up by the time they were done fighting. Look, i guess we're just not gonna see eye to eye on this. The entire Empire couldn't stop them, i doubt Luke could single handedly. True it took luke a little minute to drag pops all around, but had Vader not died at THAT particular moment, they still would not have left and would have been blown up. Even had Luke turned, the Emperor would have wanted him to stand by him and watch the destruction of "his pitiful little band" and "the end of the alliance" out the window. He had no reason to send Luke out....he's overconfident, remember, and comes from not know what is about to happen.

But i could have sworn this had something to do with Vader and Yoda, lol.

yeah...i must've missed the whole connection to Vader and Yoda
moving on then...

Wow, I posted in this thread a year ago...

Odd, it's still alive...

if im alowed to destroy the nice convrsation that u guys have? i want to destroy the point with saying that u cant compare movies from the 70-80ies with modern movies cause they did hardly know computers then. so i want to say that i THINK DARTH will win cause yoda in the old movies could hardly move but on the other side u cant find that out cause maybee he will win cause we dont know if he is fast in the old movies but i still think we should compare with yoda in the old movies and there he is dying so i think darth will win. but still it would be a spectakular fight!

of course we can compare them. It's not OUR fault Lucus left so much time inbetween movies.
Darth didn't have the force lighting ability, but maybe he could strangle Yoda a little. and he's so tall too, that'd give him an advantage.

Originally posted by Maikahyandowen
and Yoda was a Jedi Master. Vader wasn't. forgot about that.......and the dark side isn't stronger, it only seems that way in your mind.

Well it is stated in many sources that by the time anakin became Darth vader in ROTS he was on par with mace and yoda and this is proven when he beat Dooku when he became enraged as that would be the state he would fight against Windu so add more experience knowledge and refinement you get someone who could outmatch windu and beat yoda

A decade old post. Being responded to without any punctuation.

Good. Gooooood.

I doubt that ROTS Anakin/Vader was on par with Yoda.

The comments in this thread are adorable.

Yoda wins.

Well, in the end, he didn't.

Originally posted by queeq
Well, in the end, he didn't. He never fought Vader. I. A fight at their cinematic peaks Yoda prevails.

We'll never know.

Originally posted by queeq
We'll never know. Yoda told Obi he was not powerful enough to take on Darth Sidious. Yoda clearly was in his league. Obi was formidable enough to defeat Vader though.

Yup, and Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious. Makes you wonder how clever these Jedi-in-their-prime really were... Another point where Lucas ruined the OT: Yoda turns out to be a loud mouth who can't make things work that he claims he can...

Originally posted by queeq
Yup, and Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious. Makes you wonder how clever these Jedi-in-their-prime really were... Another point where Lucas ruined the OT: Yoda turns out to be a loud mouth who can't make things work that he claims he can... He did lose but he was definitely a peer to Sidious. He was unable to kill him in the limited time he had before reinforcements arrived. When Palpatine got the higher ground he essentially got the advantage he didn't relinquish.

His keys words were, "Darth Vader WILL become more powerful than either of us."

He didn't DIDN'T say HAD become because he wasn't at their level at that point nor did he ever achieve that potential due to his maiming at the hands of Obi.

Obviously Palpy was always more powerful than Vader. Vader was still his slave in ROTJ. And Yoda lost from Sidious and admitted that he had 'failed'. So... there we are...

Originally posted by queeq
Obviously Palpy was always more powerful than Vader. Vader was still his slave in ROTJ. And Yoda lost from Sidious and admitted that he had 'failed'. So... there we are... And he was less powerful than Yoda. Sidious didn't kill him. Yoda also matched his force lightning. What happened to Vader when force lightning hit him ?

Yoda and Palpatine are peers. Vader wasn't. Vader was a peer to a Obi who severed his limbs. Much worse than falling down from a pod because of poor positioning while redirecting the force lightning.

I say if the two fought on even ground I say vader because yoda is to straight forward in his style and he is older and lacks the leverage or stamina to keep up a lightsaber marathon fight. Vader can definitely match yoda in sabers as he has enough experience of dueling fast opponents, and strong opponents. Also in terms of combative use of the force I'd say vader also takes this as yoda needs time and concentration if he's going to pull off a powerful force push (MOST OF THE TIME) while vader would have little trouble being in the field 20 years straight.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I say if the two fought on even ground I say vader because yoda is to straight forward in his style and he is older and lacks the leverage or stamina to keep up a lightsaber marathon fight. Vader can definitely match yoda in sabers as he has enough experience of dueling fast opponents, and strong opponents. Also in terms of combative use of the force I'd say vader also takes this as yoda needs time and concentration if he's going to pull off a powerful force push (MOST OF THE TIME) while vader would have little trouble being in the field 20 years straight. I completely disagree. Yoda in the midst of battle reacts to the pods being tossed his way by Palpatine and handles it fine. He is about as quick with his force powers if not quicker than Vader. For all Vaders potential he failed to live up to it. Yoda is far more agile in combat than Vader is. Yoda wins.

Well, we'll never know.

Yoda handily

Originally posted by queeq
Well, we'll never know. What won't we know ?

Who would win in a fight between Yoda and Vader...

Yoda.

Originally posted by queeq
Who would win in a fight between Yoda and Vader... We won't ever definitively know but the evidence strongly leans in Yoda's favor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda told Obi he was not powerful enough to take on Darth Sidious. Yoda clearly was in his league. Obi was formidable enough to defeat Vader though.


Not saying Vader could have taken on Sidious, but your logic here doesn't work.

Simply because Kenobi was clearly incapable of competing against Count Dooku also. But Anakin beat Dooku. Yet Kenobi was still able to beat Vader. So... There you go


SW doesn't have a simple A>B>C Power scale, and leaves huge question marks everywhere. Like how the 2nd most powerful Jedi was able to defeat the Emperor, when the Most powerful Jedi failed to do so.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not saying Vader could have taken on Sidious, but your logic here doesn't work.

Simply because Kenobi was clearly incapable of competing against Count Dooku also. But Anakin beat Dooku. Yet Kenobi was still able to beat Vader. So... There you go


SW doesn't have a simple A>B>C Power scale, and leaves huge question marks everywhere. Like how the 2nd most powerful Jedi was able to defeat the Emperor, when the Most powerful Jedi failed to do so. Yoda, Sidious, and Windu were the best. Obi and Anakin were in the same peer group clearly looking up to the best. Obi was familiar with Anakin but more importantly like I said in the same tier. The circumstances were also different for Windu and Yoda against Sidious. It's like any great NFL team and match ups. Just because a team is the best doesn't mean they can't lose to peers here and there. They aren't unbeatable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda, Sidious, and Windu were the best. Obi and Anakin were in the same peer group clearly looking up to the best. Obi was familiar with Anakin but more importantly like I said in the same tier. The circumstances were also different for Windu and Yoda against Sidious. It's like any great NFL team and match ups. Just because a team is the best doesn't mean they can't lose to peers here and there. They aren't unbeatable.


None of that explains why Obi-Wan was incapable of competing with Count Dooku, yet Anakin could compete with him (even defeat him).

So what league would you place Dooku in? Anakin's or Windu's? Or somewhere in between? I personally think either Dooku or Anakin can compete against Windu. But that doesn't mean they can compete with Sidious just because Windu did.

ROTS was simply not consistent in it's power scales. Which is fine. Everyone fights differently, and Star Wars tends to leave a lot of blanks and question marks.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
None of that explains why Obi-Wan was incapable of competing with Count Dooku, yet Anakin could compete with him (even defeat him).

So what league would you place Dooku in? Anakin's or Windu's? Or somewhere in between? I personally think either Dooku or Anakin can compete against Windu. But that doesn't mean they can compete with Sidious just because Windu did.

ROTS was simply not consistent in it's power scales. Which is fine. Everyone fights differently, and Star Wars tends to leave a lot of blanks and question marks. Anakin matched up better against Dooku then Obi did. It's a matchup problem.

Dooku is in Anakin's league. He isn't up there with the big boys. Obi was unable to take out jango. Windu cut his head off. Windu is at the top of the mountain. Fiction is rarely consistent.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Anakin matched up better against Dooku then Obi did. It's a matchup problem.


Matched up better? Obi-Wan was hilariously outmatched by Count Dooku.


Originally posted by quanchi112
Dooku is in Anakin's league.

Then clearly Kenobi isn't in Anakin's league. Because he wasn't even close to Dooku's level.


Originally posted by quanchi112
He isn't up there with the big boys.

Which big boys? He did fight off Yoda, who is the top dog of the Jedi. He was also capable of matching Kenobi and Skywalker together at times. So there's really no reason to think Dooku can't be a match for Windu, who even Maul is capable of engaging in the new canon.


Originally posted by quanchi112
Obi was unable to take out jango. Windu cut his head off.

Now you're just being silly.


Originally posted by quanchi112
Windu is at the top of the mountain. Fiction is rarely consistent.


No not at all. Yoda and Sidious are the top dogs of the prequel era.

If I was to rank the rest (knowing much more about Star Wars canon than you) then I'd say Windu, Anakin and Dooku are the next level down. And then the level below them comes Kenobi and Maul.

But Star Wars generally leaves much to the imagination. Which is why we have things which don't fit my above rankings like Windu disarming Sidious, and Kenobi defeating Anakin.

Nevertheless the majority of people in the Star Wars forum, who all know SW much better than you, would pretty much agree with my rankings.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Matched up better? Obi-Wan was hilariously outmatched by Count Dooku.




Then clearly Kenobi isn't in Anakin's league. Because he wasn't even close to Dooku's level.




Which big boys? He did fight off Yoda, who is the top dog of the Jedi. He was also capable of matching Kenobi and Skywalker together at times. So there's really no reason to think Dooku can't be a match for Windu, who even Maul is capable of engaging in the new canon.




Now you're just being silly.





No not at all. Yoda and Sidious are the top dogs of the prequel era.

If I was to rank the rest (knowing much more about Star Wars canon than you) then I'd say Windu, Anakin and Dooku are the next level down. And then the level below them comes Kenobi and Maul.

But Star Wars generally leaves much to the imagination. Which is why we have things which don't fit my above rankings like Windu disarming Sidious, and Kenobi defeating Anakin.

Nevertheless the majority of people in the Star Wars forum, who all know SW much better than you, would pretty much agree with my rankings. What aren't you getting ? Anakin waxed Dooku but Dooku waxed Obi. Obi still bested Anakin but knew him inside and out. Some guys match up better against others. This isn't brain science.

Dooku IMO would have lost but he did hold his own long enough to threaten yoda's friends lives to escape. Context matters. Do you think Dooku can disarm and beat Palpatine like Windu did ?




It shows Windu is clearly superior than Obi. It's rather obvious.

Nah. Windu actually beat Palaptine whereas Yoda didn't even best Dooku or Palpatine. Facts match my opinions while hyperbole matches yours.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What aren't you getting ? Anakin waxed Dooku but Dooku waxed Obi. Obi still bested Anakin but knew him inside and out. Some guys match up better against others. This isn't brain science.

Which is why what you wrote here makes no sense:

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda told Obi he was not powerful enough to take on Darth Sidious. Yoda clearly was in his league. Obi was formidable enough to defeat Vader though.


You admit above that Obi bested Anakin but couldn't compete with Dooku because he knows Anakin inside out. And yet here you use Yoda saying Kenobi can't compete with someone as some sort of proof that Anakin can't





Originally posted by quanchi112
Dooku IMO would have lost but he did hold his own long enough to threaten yoda's friends lives to escape. Context matters. Do you think Dooku can disarm and beat Palpatine like Windu did ?


Well not that we've ever seen a Saber match up between Dooku and Sidious, but no I don't believe Dooku would win that. Doesn't mean Dooku can't match Windu.

I've proven, and you've admitted A>B>C means A>C doesn't work that smoothly in SW.

If it did, Windu would have stomped Maul without blinking when he engaged him in the Disney Canon (based on TCW unfinished S6 episodes) Son of Dathmir comic.

Windu also would have baterred Mother Talzin when he fought her in a finished S6 episode.


Originally posted by quanchi112
It shows Windu is clearly superior than Obi. It's rather obvious.


No one's disputing that Windu is clearly > Kenobi. But your example of why Mace is better is a terrible one.



Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah. Windu actually beat Palaptine whereas Yoda didn't even best Dooku or Palpatine. Facts match my opinions while hyperbole matches yours.


Not really. Yoda fought Palpatine out in the open where Palpatine could use his environment and Force Powers to their full effect. Yoda also didn't begin the fight with help from 3 other Jedi.

Context/Environments/Circumstances is everything in Jedi/Sith fights.

Yoda is simply more Powerful than Mace. Yoda can casually freeze Ventress, and matches Palpatine's force powers. Palpatine chucks Maul and Opress around with ease.

Yet Windu has to be serious effort in to defeat Maul

You do the math.

http://www.myteamisbetterthanyourteam.com

This fun website demonstrates the dubiousness of the transitive rule for victories - in college sports, at least.

And you can see how common it is for teams to occasionally beat higher-tiered teams. And thus we can 'prove' that the merchant marine football team is better than national champions Ohio State.

I will also note that how you ask "who's better" determines the result. You can also easily show,that Ohio State is better than the Merchant Marines. That's why debates about who is best are endless.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which is why what you wrote here makes no sense:




You admit above that Obi bested Anakin but couldn't compete with Dooku because he knows Anakin inside out. And yet here you use Yoda saying Kenobi can't compete with someone as some sort of proof that Anakin can't








Well not that we've ever seen a Saber match up between Dooku and Sidious, but no I don't believe Dooku would win that. Doesn't mean Dooku can't match Windu.

I've proven, and you've admitted A>B>C means A>C doesn't work that smoothly in SW.

If it did, Windu would have stomped Maul without blinking when he engaged him in the Disney Canon (based on TCW unfinished S6 episodes) Son of Dathmir comic.

Windu also would have baterred Mother Talzin when he fought her in a finished S6 episode.





No one's disputing that Windu is clearly > Kenobi. But your example of why Mace is better is a terrible one.






Not really. Yoda fought Palpatine out in the open where Palpatine could use his environment and Force Powers to their full effect. Yoda also didn't begin the fight with help from 3 other Jedi.

Context/Environments/Circumstances is everything in Jedi/Sith fights.

Yoda is simply more Powerful than Mace. Yoda can casually freeze Ventress, and matches Palpatine's force powers. Palpatine chucks Maul and Opress around with ease.

Yet Windu has to be serious effort in to defeat Maul

You do the math. So you don't believe Dooku can beat the guy who bested Palpatine. That makes no sense and you don't have a showing to confirm that.

That is how it works in life in all phases.

It shows anakin was better than obi for the most part but in the same league and arrogant enough to lose to Obi. It all makes sense.


Post the evidence here so I can illuminate you. Windu is superior to maul and talzin.

No, it isn't.

Windu didn't get any help from the other Jedi in determining the outcome. They were long dead. Yoga also was ko'd while Palpatine didn't capitalize on his vulnerability allowing him time to recover.

I do agree environments matter but yoda can move as well and allowing Palpatine the higher ground was a tactical error on his end. This was the error that cost him the fight once he did reestablish ground with him on the pod. Palpatine needed effort to beat maul as well. Windu beat the guy who beat maul. Windu is better than them both and Palpatine taught maul so he has a bigger advantage due to familiarity.

Being more powerful doesn't mean you are more formidable. That's a myth and one in which I won't help perpetuate.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Post the evidence here so I can illuminate you. Windu is superior to maul and talzin.




He seems pretty equal to Talzin:

?v=y207JIwQXcw


And he clearly requires effort to defeat Maul as well:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=darth+maul+vs+mace+windu&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1440&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=H6WIVZaVOYOPU9XfnfgG&sqi=2& amp;ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#imgrc=eBzIMiYf7Qh6OM%253A%3B4x
xRqJ5ORQBo-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic.comicvine. com%252Fuploads%252Fignore_jpg_scale_super%252F111
13%252F111137054%252F3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.comicvine.com%252Fforums%252Fbattles-7%252Fdarth-maul-vs-count-dooku-1523888%252F%3B711%3B347


^ That's all Disney Canon AND Lucas Canon.. The comic book was adapted from unfinished episodes of TCW.

I'll concede Windu maybe slightly superior to Dooku and Anakin (maybe). But Anakin would give him hell in a fight. And I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku could stalemate him with his elegant style, and vast skill set.

But Windu's definitely not as powerful in the Force as Sidious or Yoda. He clearly can't toss Maul around like Sidious can. And probably wouldn't be able to freeze Ventress like Yoda did.

I'd rank Windu and Talzin as the next most powerful beings (outside the ones/Force Wielders) after Yoda and Sidious in the Prequel era. And I'd rank Anakin and Dooku right behind Windu and Talzin.

Yoda has a broken spirit after the fall of the jedi so I'm going with vader....not to mention he's gone completely insane

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He seems pretty equal to Talzin:

?v=y207JIwQXcw


And he clearly requires effort to defeat Maul as well:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=darth+maul+vs+mace+windu&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1440&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=H6WIVZaVOYOPU9XfnfgG&sqi=2& amp;ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#imgrc=eBzIMiYf7Qh6OM%253A%3B4x
xRqJ5ORQBo-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstatic.comicvine. com%252Fuploads%252Fignore_jpg_scale_super%252F111
13%252F111137054%252F3971144-sdfsdfsd.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.comicvine.com%252Fforums%252Fbattles-7%252Fdarth-maul-vs-count-dooku-1523888%252F%3B711%3B347


^ That's all Disney Canon AND Lucas Canon.. The comic book was adapted from unfinished episodes of TCW.

I'll concede Windu maybe slightly superior to Dooku and Anakin (maybe). But Anakin would give him hell in a fight. And I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku could stalemate him with his elegant style, and vast skill set.

But Windu's definitely not as powerful in the Force as Sidious or Yoda. He clearly can't toss Maul around like Sidious can. And probably wouldn't be able to freeze Ventress like Yoda did.

I'd rank Windu and Talzin as the next most powerful beings (outside the ones/Force Wielders) after Yoda and Sidious in the Prequel era. And I'd rank Anakin and Dooku right behind Windu and Talzin. He actually seemed less powerful than Talzin. She was weakened and he needed a three on one to have her killed.

Windu would beat them all. Saying he wouldn't is ignoring the fact no one legit beat Windu ever. Kenobi bested Anakin and Dooku got crushed by Anakin.

It usually always comes down to the skill with the light saber. Windu proved he was good enough to deflect the lightning right back into Sheev's face.

Talzin seems at the top with Sheev's second in terms of power. This isn't ranking formidability.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I completely disagree. Yoda in the midst of battle reacts to the pods being tossed his way by Palpatine and handles it fine. He is about as quick with his force powers if not quicker than Vader. For all Vaders potential he failed to live up to it. Yoda is far more agile in combat than Vader is. Yoda wins.

He reacts to the pods so what? He wasn't fighting the pods. We see yoda isn't a fast guy when using the force most of the time. Also he isn't a very creative fighter. While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins. Also Vaders force power is much more combative applicable due to being in the field for,20 years while yoda had been out of practice for some centuries. While I admit yoda isn't in cable and can go toe to toe with the best of the best and is one of the best of the best, if we look at how Anakin is ranked, we see he is ranked as on level with Sidious and yoda. In my opinion Vader is better than Anakin so could actually successfully defeat yoda however he is defiantly going to lose an arm and si going to need to relax for a while because this is a battle he is going to fight for. However in the end I would have to say Darth Vader.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He reacts to the pods so what? He wasn't fighting the pods. We see yoda isn't a fast guy when using the force most of the time. Also he isn't a very creative fighter. While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins. Also Vaders force power is much more combative applicable due to being in the field for,20 years while yoda had been out of practice for some centuries. While I admit yoda isn't in cable and can go toe to toe with the best of the best and is one of the best of the best, if we look at how Anakin is ranked, we see he is ranked as on level with Sidious and yoda. In my opinion Vader is better than Anakin so could actually successfully defeat yoda however he is defiantly going to lose an arm and si going to need to relax for a while because this is a battle he is going to fight for. However in the end I would have to say Darth Vader. He was reacting as they were sent at him quickly. No, Yoda had greater force powers, great maneuverability, and greater saber skills. He wins this hands down. Luke decimated Vader and he was in no way comparable to Yoda in Rotj.

Vader was wiser but also slower.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While I admit that yoda is more agile than Vader, Vader has successfully defeated opponents with more agility than himself. Really if Vader can hold out yoda long enough for his stamina to run out th Vader wins.


No way Vader stands a chance against Yoda.

He crushes Khan though with complete ease.



Originally posted by quanchi112
Luke decimated Vader and he was in no way comparable to Yoda in Rotj.




Vader was going easy on his kiddo.

Vader may be comparable to Yoda with his TK. He's also likely a superior pilot to Yoda. So Vader loses a Saber fight to Yoda for sure, but saying he's "in no way comparable to Yoda" is not true. He is in some aspects.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was reacting as they were sent at him quickly. No, Yoda had greater force powers, great maneuverability, and greater saber skills. He wins this hands down. Luke decimated Vader and he was in no way comparable to Yoda in Rotj.

Vader was wiser but also slower.

Ok so we know he has reaction speed. Ok I would hope so. Doesn't translate to a win. Yoda has greater practical knowledge of the force and has demonstrated some pretty big power, however he has been out of practice for centuries while Vader has been refining his skill and becoming more powerful in the force using it combatively. Also in terms of sabers I'd say Vader can take yoda due to the fact that Anakin was stated to be on yoda and Sidious level as duelist by ROTS and I believe he only improved after that. So yes I bel dive there is a strong case for Vader being able to contend with windu. Dooku was able to do it and not die, so I don't see why Vader can't. In terms of the force Vader is much more destructive and more in practice. While I agree that yoda has more experience and wisdom surrounding the force his skills are more lauded back due to him needing the time to concentrate his energies to do the God like things we expect. Vader however doesn't need that as seen he can do force powers with in an instant. I believe Vader wasn't really trying in that fight so him getting beat by Luke doesn't really say that Vader lacks in any skill.m

Vader has succesfully beaten faster opponents. Just because you have faster speed doesn't always mean you're going to win. I agree Vader is more tactically inclined than yoda in term of one on one combat.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok so we know he has reaction speed. Ok I would hope so. Doesn't translate to a win. Yoda has greater practical knowledge of the force and has demonstrated some pretty big power, however he has been out of practice for centuries while Vader has been refining his skill and becoming more powerful in the force using it combatively. Also in terms of sabers I'd say Vader can take yoda due to the fact that Anakin was stated to be on yoda and Sidious level as duelist by ROTS and I believe he only improved after that. So yes I bel dive there is a strong case for Vader being able to contend with windu. Dooku was able to do it and not die, so I don't see why Vader can't. In terms of the force Vader is much more destructive and more in practice. While I agree that yoda has more experience and wisdom surrounding the force his skills are more lauded back due to him needing the time to concentrate his energies to do the God like things we expect. Vader however doesn't need that as seen he can do force powers with in an instant. I believe Vader wasn't really trying in that fight so him getting beat by Luke doesn't really say that Vader lacks in any skill.m

Vader has succesfully beaten faster opponents. Just because you have faster speed doesn't always mean you're going to win. I agree Vader is more tactically inclined than yoda in term of one on one combat. What makes you say Yoda has been out of practice ? This is simply untrue. Anakin would become more powerful but had not. Obi was not sent to kill Sheev because he wasn't as powerful but was more than up for the job of taking down Anakin. You have no proof to suggest why he didn't try and just make things up yet again.

Vader has never beaten someone of Yoda's power, skill, and quickness. Vader loses, badly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What makes you say Yoda has been out of practice ? This is simply untrue. Anakin would become more powerful but had not. Obi was not sent to kill Sheev because he wasn't as powerful but was more than up for the job of taking down Anakin. You have no proof to suggest why he didn't try and just make things up yet again.

Vader has never beaten someone of Yoda's power, skill, and quickness. Vader loses, badly.

Ok the fact that before the clone wars yoda hasn't just been in the field. He's the grandmaster and has taken the role of the arm chair Jedi. He had windu, dooku, Anakin, obi wan, and so many lower Jedi to do all the work for him. Before the war he really hadn't been doing anything because there wasn't anything to do and if there were it was with local bounty hunters and thugs and that a matter of local police and many other Jedi to handle. Also the 20+ years gap that yoda hadn't been practice when palatine was in control. Also yoda was getting older and Lucas states that yoda had to find the necessary strength to fight dooku due to his age. So while he sint just some weak old frog man he is still very old. The entire middle is unimportant and irrelevant. Obi really would have lost if Anakin was more tactically inclined in that battle. Actually I do. It's his son so he doesn't want to kill him. While he would be willing to if it came down to it he doesn't want to. Also we have seen vader fight, there is a big difference between vader as of ESB and ROTJ in terms of how they fought.

So? Anakin has never beaten anyone on Palptines level or yodas level yet he can contend with them apin sabers as stayed by the nick guillard in the ROTS commentary. If you wish to find it watch it with all the actors commentaries and he wil, state it. I also knew where to find that so you can see it if you like. So whoever wins, they are going to be limping home, and need immediate medical treatment.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok the fact that before the clone wars yoda hasn't just been in the field. He's the grandmaster and has taken the role of the arm chair Jedi. He had windu, dooku, Anakin, obi wan, and so many lower Jedi to do all the work for him. Before the war he really hadn't been doing anything because there wasn't anything to do and if there were it was with local bounty hunters and thugs and that a matter of local police and many other Jedi to handle. Also the 20+ years gap that yoda hadn't been practice when palatine was in control. Also yoda was getting older and Lucas states that yoda had to find the necessary strength to fight dooku due to his age. So while he sint just some weak old frog man he is still very old. The entire middle is unimportant and irrelevant. Obi really would have lost if Anakin was more tactically inclined in that battle. Actually I do. It's his son so he doesn't want to kill him. While he would be willing to if it came down to it he doesn't want to. Also we have seen vader fight, there is a big difference between vader as of ESB and ROTJ in terms of how they fought.

So? Anakin has never beaten anyone on Palptines level or yodas level yet he can contend with them apin sabers as stayed by the nick guillard in the ROTS commentary. If you wish to find it watch it with all the actors commentaries and he wil, state it. I also knew where to find that so you can see it if you like. So whoever wins, they are going to be limping home, and need immediate medical treatment.
Who cares ? He performed pretty well against Sheev. Meanwhile Vader lost to Kenobi. Yoda is quicker, more powerful, and more elusive than Vader. He has the advantages. Vader doesn't.


Evidence talks not people's opinions. He could compete just not win. Yoda wins, 10/10.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who cares ? He performed pretty well against Sheev. Meanwhile Vader lost to Kenobi. Yoda is quicker, more powerful, and more elusive than Vader. He has the advantages. Vader doesn't.


Evidence talks not people's opinions. He could compete just not win. Yoda wins, 10/10.

Being out of practice mattes. If yoda would have been more in practice he most lily would have beaten sheev possibly. He can perform well doesn't mean he ain't out of practice. Vader as of the one we are talking about is better and smarter than that one. Again due to a tactical failure. Yoda is quicker, but vase has taken on faster opponents than himself and has been described as faster than thought. More powerful doesn't mean he wins not win vader has better ways to apply his force powers in terms of combative capabilities. Again vader can match that. Also, dooku was able to hold off yoda and cause yoda to en tired once it was all down and over. Vader is canonically proven to be better than dooku so yes vader can and I believe will take saber. Also vader would have knowledge of yodas style due to being able to observe him as a padawn while yoda would be working with outdated information of a pure form V specialist.

Well with going by evidence, yodas style works against him. Since vader has greater durability than yoda, and yodas style is to exhaustive, vader stands an even greater chance of winning due to yoda just going to go all out while vader has the skill and durability to hold off yoda when he tires. Also he's physically better due to his suit with the exception of speed and agility. So whoever wins its not going to be a 10/10 win.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Being out of practice mattes. If yoda would have been more in practice he most lily would have beaten sheev possibly. He can perform well doesn't mean he ain't out of practice. Vader as of the one we are talking about is better and smarter than that one. Again due to a tactical failure. Yoda is quicker, but vase has taken on faster opponents than himself and has been described as faster than thought. More powerful doesn't mean he wins not win vader has better ways to apply his force powers in terms of combative capabilities. Again vader can match that. Also, dooku was able to hold off yoda and cause yoda to en tired once it was all down and over. Vader is canonically proven to be better than dooku so yes vader can and I believe will take saber. Also vader would have knowledge of yodas style due to being able to observe him as a padawn while yoda would be working with outdated information of a pure form V specialist.

Well with going by evidence, yodas style works against him. Since vader has greater durability than yoda, and yodas style is to exhaustive, vader stands an even greater chance of winning due to yoda just going to go all out while vader has the skill and durability to hold off yoda when he tires. Also he's physically better due to his suit with the exception of speed and agility. So whoever wins its not going to be a 10/10 win. We see he isn't faster than thought. That's hyperbolic. He got crushed by Luke and Ypda wins due to the advantages I have given.


False. Yoda cuts him up easily. Too fast and too powerful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We see he isn't faster than thought. That's hyperbolic. He got crushed by Luke and Ypda wins due to the advantages I have given.


False. Yoda cuts him up easily. Too fast and too powerful.

Or coughexpamdeduniversecough. So you think that Sidious moving in and out of existence is hyperbolic. Luke's battle with him is debatable as most fans believe vader was holding back. Also if vader used the force he would have won due to Luke not being that powerful yet. So ignore all of vaders advantages?

So this proves you don't know anything about the styles. Yoda didn't beat Dooku. Dooku could keep up, and power didn't seem to be a problem for him. Vader is canonically stated to be more powerful and demonstrates more power than Dooku.

Dooku is a peer of Mace, the fight could go either way based on the environment but on average Mace holds an advantage because his power can break through Dooku's elegant form.

Dooku is closer to Mace than Mace is to Yoda. There, I said it.

Originally posted by Bentley


Dooku is closer to Mace than Mace is to Yoda.

Vader off course...

Vader's off course?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Or coughexpamdeduniversecough. So you think that Sidious moving in and out of existence is hyperbolic. Luke's battle with him is debatable as most fans believe vader was holding back. Also if vader used the force he would have won due to Luke not being that powerful yet. So ignore all of vaders advantages?

So this proves you don't know anything about the styles. Yoda didn't beat Dooku. Dooku could keep up, and power didn't seem to be a problem for him. Vader is canonically stated to be more powerful and demonstrates more power than Dooku. Yes, it's hyperbole as we can quantify his speed in the films. Speculation.


Dooku fled. So ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it's hyperbole as we can quantify his speed in the films. Speculation.


Dooku fled. So ?

Star Wars is one of those things that can be taken seriously.

Showed he was able to hold his own and keep up.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Star Wars is one of those things that can be taken seriously.

Showed he was able to hold his own and keep up. Not the hyperbole.

No, Dooku fled because he was outmatched.

Originally posted by Maikahyandowen
that was Doku though. he's got NOTHING on Vader.

>_>

Yoda I must withdraw my former claims.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yoda I must withdraw my former claims.

Definitely Yoda!!