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I've searched for other threads on this topic and can't find them, so here goes:

It seems that the one irrefutable logical flaw in The Matrix universe is the whole idea of using humans as energy sources. Because the rest of the universe is so logically tight, I would love to believe that I am missing something.

This is the problem: Humans produce electricity, but they do this ONLY by CONVERTING the energy in food into electricity. Growing/synthesizing food requires energy (our present energy source is the sun). There is NO WAY that the machines can get more energy out of the humans as electricity than they put into them as food (second law of thermodynamics; we can argue about this if you wish, but as Omega will tell you, it is absolutely unavoidable).

On the face of it, it would make much more sense for the machines to just use what ever energy they are using to grow/synthesize human food (there is a mention of "fusion" as a direct source of energy for themselves (i.e., instead of using this energy to make food, use it to make electricity).

Yes, the movies state that dead humans are recycled. This WOULD work for a while, but as one never gets as much energy out as one puts in, the number of humans will dwindle as it takes lots of dead people to maintain a small number of living ones.

I can't believe The Bros didn't understand this problem, given how much they know about everything ELSE.

So, why batteries??? Why not computing power (this HAS been done by a number of other Sci Fi novels including the Dan Simmons Hyperion series)

If anyone can answer this, you guys can!!

Because it fitted the style better this way. Forget the science of it.

>Ushgarak "Because it fitted the style better this way. Forget the science of it."

I agree that this is the most likely answer. It just seems so unsatisfying -- thinking is encouraged in (essential to) other aspects of the movies, why turn it off here??

I can be wrong but you mean the 1st law of thermodynamics, don't you?

I read an article on it that said it was possible, but they'd get nowhere near as much as they said they'd get.

The Matrix was not created only to produce energy...of course the machines are interested in understand some aspects of the human nature..

> The One Himself: While I did mean "second law", you are correct that BOTH the first and second laws are relevant here.

The first law states that "energy is conserved", meaning that energy may be transformed from one kind to another (say chemical to electrical), but the total energy of the universe (system + surroundings) stays the same.

The second law basically states that whenever such an energy transformation takes place, some energy is lost to the surroundings (actually, there are MANY different ways to state the second law, but this version is relevant here).

I was trying to find a reasonable web site to direct people to, but most are fairly painful, so I can't recommend any one in particular.

> The One Himself: your idea that the machines have enslaved people because they want to "understand aspects of human nature" is very interesting and is perhaps a way out of this problem. If the machines could get electricity and at the same time gather immense amounts of data about human behavior in a controlled situation, they would almost get "two for the price of one".

Remember, we have only heard the HUMAN idea of why humans are enslaved. Perhaps the machines do have additional purposes....

I think that they actually said something about using the thermal energy (aka heat) given off by the humans as energy.

But scientifically, it wouldn't work nearly as well as it does in the movie. We actually had a discussion about this last year in my physics class

It is so magnificently irrelevant.

Physics isnt really my strong-point

Heehee...

I loved physics, and last year when we were learning about energy transforming and all the stuff we started talking about the Matrix (and no, I didn't start that conversation, kinda like the other day when we were discussing Star Wars in Biology...) and we more or less came to the decision that it wouldn't be possible for humans to be used as batteries and put off that much energy.

> Ushgarak "It is so magnificently irrelevant."

I disagree. This is the logical foundation for the entire "world" created by the movie.

I want to know if this is a flaw, or if there is another answer. Given the amount of detail The Bros put into other logical aspects of the movie, I am surprised that such a logical flaw would exist. Is there any reason to think that there is ANOTHER reason that the machines have enslaved humanity???

Yep, good old entropy working away there...

See, this just shows your erroneous mentality. Stop trying to look at the SCIENCE of it. This is just the set-up of the plot. Just because the Matrix has a more modern setting, people seem to see the fact that is is pseudo-science as some sort of flaw. But in Star Wars, no-one questions the existence of lightsabres, laser guns, the Force, sound in space and spaceships that manoeuvre like WWII fighters, all ridiculous concepts.

There is NO other reason, no hidden agenda. This is just the set-up of the film and to call it a logical flaw just because it is not 100% scientific is an entirely silly thing to do.

The science of the way in which humans are used as batteries IS magnificently irrelevant and it is a waste of time to worry too much about it.

Just accept it as the plot and deal with it. As Omega says, this is simple suspension of disbelief, a basic tool of drama. Do not find mysteries or flaws where there are none.

OK. If belief must be suspended, i'll suspend it. This is what I wanted to know.

Just so that you don't think I'm completely crazy: I would never DREAM of questioning light sabers because there is no attempt in Star Wars to have any particularly "deep thoughts" -- it is just a modern fairy tale that is a lot of fun. I LOVE Star Wars and all sorts of other "science fiction" that is heavier on the fiction than the science.

However, is the fact that so much thought went into The Matrix that made me wonder whether the "battery" issue requires the same disbelief as light sabers OR whether something else might be going on. Thank you all for your thoughts!

Ammmm.. I guess when you say "less pure energy" you are assuming a non conservative system (real system) when part of the energy is converted in other different types of energy (kinetic for instance). However, unless you loose energy to create mass the amount of energy must be the same after and before the process. The second law says that you can not convert 100 % of energy into Work.
But do not crucify me, I not a physicist, I'm just a crazy guy...

the fusion which is mentioned may quite have to do with the advancement of A.I from the minds of many plugged in2 the matrix....
and this might have given rise to some sort of device that can satisfy the thirst for power consumption....and maybe the power needed to work this particular machine may be the energy produced by humans which eventhough being less(for all the machines but enough for the device) would do the work.

the device maybe used to amplify this power......
i kno this is just a far-fetched idea.....but do give ur comments on the issue.....

also in reloaded hanman and neo both had a chat which resulted to the conclusion that both machines and humans need eachother to survive......

"BioLogos>This is the problem: Humans produce electricity, but they do this ONLY by CONVERTING the energy in food into electricity. Growing/synthesizing food requires energy (our present energy source is the sun). There is NO WAY that the machines can get more energy out of the humans as electricity than they put into them as food (second law of thermodynamics; we can argue about this if you wish, but as Omega will tell you, it is absolutely unavoidable).

On the face of it, it would make much more sense for the machines to just use what ever energy they are using to grow/synthesize human food (there is a mention of "fusion" as a direct source of energy for themselves (i.e., instead of using this energy to make food, use it to make electricity).

its an interesting point and it is relevant.

Yes, the movies state that dead humans are recycled. This WOULD work for a while, but as one never gets as much energy out as one puts in, the number of humans will dwindle as it takes lots of dead people to maintain a small number of living ones."


do we know exactly how the machines are getting their power?
they are in those pods so everything that comes out of them could be used- heat, kinetic energy, waste (do they produce waste in the pods?), and they are plugged in so could the energy of the mind/brain be harnessed in some way- remember this is the future with technology that doesnt exist today.

No, see, I have to disagree here as well. Although it is pitched, simply, at kids, there are a numbver of deep ideas GL wanted to, and has, put into Star Wars- like the issues of loyalty, friendship, betrayal, and how a good person turns bad. And the decline of the Republic is actually a rather well done comment on democracy as a whole- much as such a comment seems out of place in a Star Wars film! But he tells that amidst a background fo cool guns, and other weapons and spaceships, the realism if which you are not meant to question.

And likewise, the Brothers put lots of philosophical themes into the Matirx. But do not forget their basic stated objective- to make a kung fu vs. robots comic book, and out it on screen instead of a comic. In that respect it is no different a fantasy worl from Star Wars- their themes are told amonst a cool kung-fu background with dreadlocked robots practcing dreadful tactics for the sake of better battles and drama, and an equally literally untenable set-up- humans being used as batteries- to form the baic plot. To question that is to miss the point. That is as far as their reasoning goes- in the future, humans are being used as batteries for machines, it ia a thematic inversion. No-one should be caring about how that works, it is just the basic set-up.

So, no, Mook, it is not relevant.

>Ushgarak "do not forget their basic stated objective- to make a kung fu vs. robots comic book, and out it on screen instead of a comic."

I think that when they said this (where did they say this) they were intentionally downplaying the intellectual aspects of their work. If this was all they were doing, why bother having the actors read rather dense books on philosophy and evolutionary psychology???? I agree that the Star Wars commentary on demoncracy is better than people give it credit for (especially THESE DAYS), but I doubt the Star Wars actors needed to read anything on democracy to understand THEIR movie.

I guess what confused me about this whole battery thing is that unlike light sabers or "loud explosions in space", it is really UNNECESSARY -- people have said that it gives "style", but wouldn't it be just as stylish to hold up a processor/computer chip instead of a battery and call Neo something like "CPU" instead of "Coppertop"??

Therefore, I wonder if there is not some additional plot element, something that we will find out in the game or new Animatrix (if it happens) or whatever. People have pointed out some possibilities...

That was what I said...

Since the matrix takes place in the future we can't determine what kind of technology that the machines have come up with to transform energy from one form to another. Even though we can't explain this "some form of fusion" now it could be a possibility in the future. We are using what we know now as a basis to try and explain something that is way ahead of our time. Just my two cents..

Whatever...nevermind...

theres one thing but the architect in reloaded said that there were levels of survival they r prepared 4.......maybe they had a backup plan all along and they might even have stored energy in some form or the other......

Ok. I'm now a believer in batteries the same way I believe in Harry Potter's wand, light sabers, and warp speed .

I find it much less satisfying than any of these other examples, but that's life.

For the people who suggest that in the future we are "more advanced" and can get around the second law of thermo: highly unlikely. Not only is the second law the origin of "time's arrow" as Omega pointed out (meaning for example that a broken glass doesn't put itself back together), it is also the basis for ALL of chemistry, which then means that it is the basis for all of LIFE. Your turning a hamburger (or a beer) into useful energy (or fat!) is entirely dictated by this law, as is any other spontaneous process you can come up with (including an animal developing out of a fertilized egg...).

A number of people have pointed out that "machines need people": it is clear that we are supposed to come to the conclusion that the future lies in cooperation between humans and machines, but I'm a bit confused about this. Is there a reason OTHER than energy that the machines need people??? The importance of this interdependence between machines and people is part of the reason I was so confused by the whole battery thing. Archie even states that the machines can get alternative energy sources. So WHY do machines need people??? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed somewhere else...please direct me to the right thread).

The Omega> I'm not saying that they are breaking the second law of thermodynamics by unscrambling eggs. As a side note the funny thing is I"m in thermodynamics right now. Anyways I'm just saying that in the future there may be a way to retrieve this energy more efficiently then there is today. I think that is a definite possibility. We have proven through time that there are more efficient ways of doing things. For example when the first combustion engine was created it wasn't as nearly as efficient as the ones today. Also today we are looking at gas-electric engines which are again more efficient then there predecessors. Again just my two cents.

Don't know if this will help but according to the Animatrix the machines use the following energy of those in the pods;

"Bio-electric, thermal and kinetic energy"






Ushgarak>So, no, Mook, it is not relevant.
i think it is relevant as it is a key concept in the film.
however it is possible to suspend disbelief and/or give the w.bros the benefit of the doubt and just ignore the science of it.

Mook -- It's irrevelant as to the type of energy they are using, because they will ALWAYS be losing energy.

perhaps, but i wanted to clarify exactly what type of energy they are using.

Bioslogos> Maybe, just maybe, the Machines don't need people for electricity but enslaved humanity merely in self-defense, and they wanted to keep their creators around until they learned their lesson and became willing to stop fighting. Maybe the Machines didn't want revenge, but merely to be allowed the right to exist.

that would make more sense.

in the animatrix the scorching of the sky doesn't seem to affect the machines too much and as the Architect says the machines CAN live without man.

so maybe they are using the "Bio-electric, thermal and kinetic energy" because it is available from the people in pods, but the main reason is to enslave man in the matrix so that the machines can exist.

sum1butno1 and Mook, I agree -- I like this idea a lot! I'm not sure if there is any additional evidence for it, but it would add depth to the "war" issue, and would be an interesting way for the plot to progress...

yeah, do you have any direct quotes from the films that relate to this?

Not really in the full-length movies, but there is a bit in the Animatrix which could support this. In the Second Renaissance part I, B166ER's testamony states that he "simply did not want to die." Also, it mentions the fact that some humans were supportive of justice toward the machines, which could be a redeeming feature for humanity, in the minds of the machines.
As well, the machines did have some respect for the humans for a time, as shown near the end when 01 tried to join the UN.

In Part II, the narrator says "May there be mercy on man and machine for their sins" just before the humans "scorch the skies". This seems like an indication that they will have a chance to redeem themselves (though it may merely be alluding to the movies we all know and love).
Also, when the new 01 "ambassador" signs the treaty, it says "Your flesh is a relic, a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh, and a new world awaits you. We demand it." Remember the end of Revos? When the Oracle questions the Architect about whether he'll do what he says? "What do you think I am, human?" That seems like an indication that the machines realize that the root of the conflicts among humans is their decieving each other, and that they want to be better than that. Well, this "a new world awaits you" sounds like a genuine offer of a kind of condition of surrender.

However, it does seem that there is more in the Second Renaissance that supports the use of humans as an "endlessly multiplying infinitely renewable energy source". Which, of course, is what this is all about.