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This has been bothering me for weeks and it has been touched on before, but not really discussed..

Count Dooku in comparison to other Sith Lords in the movies and in the books just doesn't match up....

*POSSIBLE SPOILER INFO....PROCEED WITH CAUTION*

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*you've been warned*

He has been discribed as leading a group of planets in the outlining systems in revolt to secede from the REPUBLIC in EpII...

Now going by what we know of Dooku, as being part of the Jedi Council at one time and fully aware of the prophecy; are his actions in prepartion of what is to come or is he seeking power and greed?

Is he using Darth Sidious or is it the other way around?

Count Dooku by all intent so far comes across more as a Dark Jedi as oppose to a Sith Lord. I suppose we will have to wait til the movie comes out and maybe even EpIII to have this truly answered......

spoiler tags!

Well, nobody knows WHO the prophecy is talking about... just a person

maybe the siths dont care or fear any jedi prophecy`s. They got their own agenda.

I don't think that dooku is even a sith, where's his darth name, i know people say tyranus but were have they got that from, isn't he a bit old to be an apprentice. i think its far more likely that he just has similar beliefs to sidious and that sidious can see that by supporting dooku he will continue to climb the lader to emperor.

Where Dooku comes in and what his aim is, will have to be sorted out. That may even take until EpIII though.
And the Darth Tyranus thing seems pretty secure. That name has been circling for over a year now and nothing has contradicted that so far. It seems pretty set.

rumor is dooku thinks he IS the chosen one, but thats just a rumor.

Personally, I think Sidious is using Dooku, and Dooku realizes this. He just doesnt care because he's using Sidious, too. In the end, I think Dooku will realize Sidious true goals and turn good. Anakin will then kill him, b/c Sidious will tell him Dooku is responsible for killing his mother. Thats when Obi-wan realizes he has to kick anakins ass

I definitely don't think that Dooku will turn good. That would make Anakin's redemption less meaningful.

Why?

Dooku is already an almost ambevalent character as it is. He is shady, but from what we know now, doesnt strike me as truly evil. I think it will be a case of the enemy of your enemy is your friend. In this case, the mutual enemy is sidious and his clones.

I kinda like that approach, but I have to see AOTC first.

Yeah, the scriptment doesnt really tell us much detail as to the characters motives at this point

What are those ten things? I can't see them!

there arent 10 things, it was just his way of creating space so we would have to scroll down to see the "spoiler."

Catch up time.....

The situation with Count Dooku.....well lets see?

Count Dooku is taken as apprentice by Sidious more as a figure head....like assistant....this was discussed some months back when people found out who Sidious's next apprentice would be.........and true he does take on the name 'Darth Tyrannus' which emplies Sith Lord, but like I said previously; I find his motives more in line with a Dark Jedi instead of a Sith Lord....
And true the only way I feel that Sidious is to get rid of Dooku is to lead Anakin to believe Dooku kill his mother.....

IF Dooku betrays Sidious, it must be AFTER Anakin's fall. Isn't the point of having only two Sith is that the weaker one can't rebel by himself?

And if he does, he becomes Master himself.

Which he doesn't...so I'm guessing that Palpatine gets rid of him someone..maybe Dooku just turns out to be weaker than we would think.

My understanding is that its not that there can only be two sith. It's that they come in pairs. A master and an apprentice, no more, no less. I think the point yoda was trying to make is that SOMEONE obviously had trained Maul, that the Sith religion had been secretly passed down from master to apprentice over the generations. EU says that in the past there were thousands of Sith, doesnt it? I'll have to check my abacus, but i think a thousand is more than 2.

it is???

And you are correct, Darth Bane (EU) was the one who made the new rule after all the lords failed to destroy the Jedi
(check the comic Jedi vs Sith for that)

This is a good one - I just made a similar post on another thread -
the thing is the reason Dooku quit the Jedi order was because he was pissed of that ALL the Jedi had to report to ONE supreme chancellor and that chancellor controlled the Jedi to the extent where they were compelled to obey his wishes - and this system was responsible for the death of Qui Gon his student - and Dooku didn't want to be part of such a system - the thing is ultimately by serving Darth Sidious, he's serving the very Supreme Chancellor he didn't want to serve and which he quit the order for. So it is possible that even HE doesn't know that Sidious is Palpatine. And in Ep.3 there could be a scenario similar to the one described by
Bigsef. Dooku turns good once he realizes that he is being used by Sidious who IS Palpatine - but by then Anakin has grown more powerful and ultimately kills Dooku ( I'm not sure whether this is before or after his defeat by Obi Wan ) and becomes the new Sith Lord, unlike his son Luke who years later, resists the road of darkness in ROTJ and DOESN'T kill the existing Darth lord to take over as the new Sith sidekick to Sidious.

By the way whats the difference between a Dark Jedi and a Sith Lord - sorry for asking but I'm not entirely up to speed on some things as the rest of you guys.

I don't know, but we only have to wait 4 more months to get some answers.

Well, there is a pretty much confirmed line at the end of AOTC where Dooku meets Sidious (or Sido Dyas as he will be known as in EPII) after being defeated by Yoda. He says something like: Good news, my lord, the war has begun.
So I guess he knows quite well who Palpy is.

Queeq,
You know I was just getting to that...you seem to have beating me to the punch.....
Dooku does know who Palpatine aka Sidious is....

to quote another sci-fi movie, "did IQs just drop while i was away?" While I am not sure whether I beleive Dooku knows Sidious is Palpatine, the quote you stated bears no relevance on whether Dooku knows or not. If Dooku knew Sidious was Supreme Chancellor, he probably wouldnt help him. Dooku meets SIDIOUS at the end of the movie, not Palpatine. While they are the same person, we have no reason to beleive that Dooku knows, or even that Maul knew. Palpatine is putting on a big show of trying to HELP the Republic. The potential dangers of his rise to power go completely unnoticed by everyone. If everyone else is duped, theres no reason to think Dooku is not. While I'm not sure how I feel about the matter, yet, there is absolutely nothing we know of from the scriptment that suggests Dooku knows.

That's what I was thinking. Plus, Palpy's not a "lord," he's the supreme chancellor, or moron.

By the way, what kind of a name is "Dooku" ? Darth Tyranus is pretty cool, but "Count Dooku" ? I think they should have come up with something better than that.

I see no problem with Dooku. I like it.

And it's clear from what we know of AOTC that Dooku and Sidious set up this big plan with Clones and stuff. Of course they know each other.

I don't really like the name Tyrannus

its better than yerssot

Count Dooku sounds suspiciously like Count Dracula.

And the man himself looks suspicously like Dracula too.

I think it would be pretty hard to train someone and always hide your face in a hood. After all, when you are lightsaber training, won't the hood at least reveal all of the face.

Of course Maul knew who Sidious was. When they talk in Coruscant, they are on the balcony of Palpatine's office.

Dooku would not need lightsaber training from Palpatine. he is a fallen JEDI MASTER, for goodness sakes. For all we know, Palpatine doesnt even have a lightsaber, nor has he ever used one.

still, he needs to be trained for Dark power usage

Well, possibly, but possibly not.

you don't need training to do a force choke???

Why should you? It's just telekinesis. If you can push, pull and throw then you can constrict.

Dooku is a Master; he has a ton of skills alreayd. If he can let his Dark Side emotions flow then he knows pretty much all he needs to know...

...which is not to say he has NOTHING to learn from Sidious, who is obviously superior to just about everyone. That is why he is the Master.

And from what we have seen, you need NO training to let your Dark Side flow! It is, in fact, easier.

I thought you needed to get help on the DISTANCE part?

Ah, well- if indeed the Sith do have an ability to project their Force use over a great distance...

(and for those who don't know what we are talking about, it was a lin cut from TPM where the Sidious hologram chokes a Neimodian, gloating that only a Sith can use his powers at such range)

... then he would have to be taught that, yes. Still, I doubt that took long.

so you're not throwing the idea entirely out?

wow! whyd they cut the force choke thing from the movie?!?! aside from that, I will remind you that anakin learns the force choke thing without any dark side training at all, and i dont want to hear any crap like, "of course, hes the chosen one," because thats just plain silly. as far as the distance thing goes, not that it can compare to lightyears, but yoda directed lukes x-wing right to his hovel, so he would have had to start adjusting lukes course at a fairly high altitude. And even luke could SEE things that were happening a very long ways away, such as when he saw his friends suffering on bespin. it shouldnt be too much of a stretch to learn to start causing actions in those places.

Sidious trained Anakin

But on the whole, most DIRECT Force actions appear to be local.


BTW, I was always under the impression that Luke's instincts cause him to crash his X-Wing in the right place, not direct intervention from Yoda.

As to why they cut the choke... to move things on at the start, I guess.

yeah, it would probably be more dramatic seeing the force choke for the first time when anakin kills the tuskens. not that well be seeing it anyways. Aside from that, one of Zahns books said that Yoda guided Lukes X-wing to where yoda was. If you notice in the movie, Luke pretty much loses control of his X-wing when he gets in the atmosphere, all the displays start going whack. So while it IS just EU, it was also in the first authorized star wars book in recent memory, and from the foward to the book, Zahn thanks Lucas for helping him with ideas, etc. It always just seemed to make sense that Yoda would have to guide Luke to him. Luke wasnt THAT well trained in the force to pick out a spot on a whole planet.

Well, I reckon if he could hit the exhaust port he could land in the right place- without even knowing it...

and there was something familiar about that place

Actually who cares whether Dooku knows Sidious is Palpy and all that - all I know is Darth Vader is a really cool name and sounds scary - Darth Maul is a really cool name and sounds scary- Darth Tyrannus is a really cool name and sounds scary - but Count Dooku doesn't sound half as scary as even, say, Bjork - yeah that's right ... Count Bjork sounds more scary and impressive than Count Dooku.

Count Dooku is his name, like Vaders name is Anakin

luke SAW the exhaust port and knew what he was going for. Aside from that, Luke lost control of his X-Wing which is why he crashed in the first place. OBVIOUSLY luke couldnt have used his instincts to guide the X-Wing to where yoda was if he had no control over his ship. Added to that, an authorized star wars book, which is the only thing to comment on the matter, says yoda guided him there. as far as im concerned, its an open and shut case.

Well, in all canon sources it is left open. And did Luke just happen to enter orbit at the right part of the plant by luck? I don't think so!

It wasn't a matter of being able to SEE the exhuast port! Your eyes can deceive you, remember? It was his forcer instinct that let him take the shot- effectively 'blind'.

That's what the ghost of OB1 said, right?

The bit about deceptive senses was said while he was very much alive.

you dont know luke entered the "right" part of the atmosphere. Yoda could have taken him through the atmosphere halfway around the planet. obviously were not seeing lukes real-time landing, because the sequence is only a few seconds long. we just see the few seconds before he actually lands.

and on the other matter, luke did see the exhaust port. he visually saw it with his own eyes and used the force to let him know at what point to fire. even if luke had his eyes closed the whole time, or only saw it from a great distance, he still had already seen the schematics of the death star and had a basic idea of how far down the trench it was. to my knowledge, luke was given no schematics of the part of dagobah yoda lived on. sure, cannon doesnt spell out exactly what happened, but it only takes a little logical reasoning to determine the probable answer.

He didn't see if with his own eyes- he would have been moving FAR too fast.

And I think it only takes a little thought to see that Luke experienced heavy turbulence but was NOT wrenched halfway around the planet, which is just silly!

As is the idea that Yoda could just whip the X-Wing around that fast. When he moved the X-Wing it was a gradual, slow motion- as we are also led to believe moving large objects will be in AOTC.

Of all the strange ideas!

i am correct in assuming you are calling your own ideas strange?

first, we have an authorized book saying yoda guided luke to his location. without anything to contradict, that should be enough to satisfy you. the only thing we have that disagrees is your opinion (and of course the opinions of people who would be inclined to agree).

Secondly, you dont seem to have notice that i said even if luke didnt actually see the port, he still had seen the tactical readouts of the battle station and had a general idea of where the exhaust port was. luke also had been looking through his viewer earlier, which had a countdown to the exhaust port location. your subconscious keeps track of all that stuff. we have excellent internal clocks. that aside, ive played the videogames where that mission was run and you can see the ports from quite a distance. even though its just a videogame, you would have to agree that picking a target on a straight line path at a given, known distance is ALOT easier than finding one little hovel on an entire planet.

and who said yoda would have to move the x-wing at all. it was already moving at hundreds of kph in the atmosphere. all yoda had to do was nudge it in the right direction, its momentum would keep it moving on its own just fine. simple physics.
even if you want to argue that luke actually had control of where the x-wing was going, which we obvioulsy know he didnt, yoda could easily have manipulated lukes mind to bring him to his location. not direct mind control, simple coersion.

any way you look at it, yoda is responsible for luke landing where he did on dagobah.

Well, maybe, though we still have no evidence that you can use the Force at such a distance. I think it was just 'luck'- or the Will of the FOrce, as made manifest through Luke;s instincts. He crahsed near the right place because he had an insticntive idea where to go.

As for the exhaust port, forget the bloody computer games. NO normal human could hit that target. Even Wedge said it was impossible, the hi-tech computers could not do it...

LUKE USED THE FORCE TO HIT IT! As everyone knows.

And no, nothing said in non-canon sources cuts any ice with me at all- and that goes for a LOT of people here.

Luckily you said that it was obvious, I have no idea what you two are talking about, but the hitting of the exhaust pipe was clearly with the help of the Force

i never said it wasnt because of the force. that whole discussion was to illustrate that luke wasnt strong enough in the force yet to find yoda on his own. even by instincts. its quite clear to me that yoda was in control

"Yoda not far"
What is that? 1 mile? 100 miles? (compared to a whole planet, that's not far)

huh?

Beats me.

http://www.swmovies.net/episode-ii/news/200201/

thanks for Peluffo for the warning, and ratcat to get it online