Darth Vader vs. Darth Maul

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master harmax
In the red corner ... over 7 ft.tall weighing atleast 250 pounds - clad in awesome dark armour - concieved by the will of the Force - got shellacked by his guru when he was 20 something and he's still hurting from the embarrasement of it all - right hand of Darth Sidious, the sith lord who managed to dupe Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi Wan and all the rest of those dopey Jedi masters - can strangle people long distance, great at telepathy and other cool force tricks - never sleeps ( as far as we know ). Got a whole bunch of cool lines under his belt like "Your powers are weak old man","The emperor is not as forgiving as I am","You don't know the power of the dark side" etc. etc.

In the blue corner ... looks more scary then the devil in Exorcist ( well almost ) - uses a double bladed lightsabre - a tendency to get complacent and overconfident ... doesn't try to out talk his opponents into submission, prefers to let his Karate skills do the talking ... for height and weight refer to Ray Park websites for further information ...

WHO'S THE GREATEST ?

yerssot
Vader, because Anakin IS the Chosen One, you must see!

master harmax
Couldn't have put it better and more succintly myself ... you de man Yerssot

ToMacco
Obi-wan whopped both of their sorry asses!

jedi212guy
ToMacco, that wasn't an option.

Captain REX
Like Master Harmax said in another thread, we haven't seen Darth Vader in his prime. We've only seen him in the OT, where the lightsaber duels were slow. In the OT, Darth Maul would whip his butt. In PT, Vader could have a 20/20 in saber dueling, while, according to Ushgarak, Darth Maul has dueling skills of 18/20 and Dooku has 19/20. I have dueling skills of 1/20. smile

master harmax
Tomacco - Obi Wan whipped Anakin, NOT Vader - Anakin was neither a fully fledged Jedi Master NOR a fully fledged sith lord.
I hope Darth Vader in Ep.3 is a lot scarier, faster and a better martial artist then in the OT and like Cap.Rex said with sabre dueling skills of 20/20. Hayden's got his work cut out for him.
I have sabre dueling skills of 0/20.

finti
Vader rules

TeCk-IcE
Absolutely! cool

jedi212guy
My dueling skills are -20/20.

Ushgarak
For no apparent reason, yerss has been quoting a bastardised version of my sabre system for the RP. For the record, it is NOT out of 20, and I don't even use that system in the on-line RP at all.

Is this question who would win in a sabre duel or who is, simply, the greatest? Because if greatness is the question then how can Vader lose, exactly?

Narrow it down to sabre skills and we need to know whether you mean the post or pre-injury Vader.

yerssot
hey! I'm misquoted! I said that Ush gave Dooku an 19 and Maul an 18. I didn't said it was true (because I first need to see Dooku fighting first!)

Gundark
Well Vader is my obvious fav, but this is not a fair comparison as you've got Vader throughout the entire OT and only 1 film with Maul. And damn little screen time at that. Just giving Maul the benefit of the doubt.

yerssot
He IS the Chosen One, you must see!

master harmax
The question is - Who's the Greatest, and, right on yerssot - Vader IS the greatest - except now he may have some competition in jedi212guy.

Ratcat
I'm moving this to the OT & Ep-I forum.

Maul is an Episode-I character and Vader is primarily an OT character for now.

Captain REX
I have an idea! How about I start another thread under almost the same name (with permission from Master Harmax) and at the top there is a poll. If one of three Sith Lords (Maul, Vader, or Dooku) win the poll, I'll write a duel between #1 and the runner up. The loser will be busy doing something or assasinated.

How does that sound?

yerssot
I'm just a poster; don't ask me

King Jedi
Vader is the greatest. But the ultimate question is - who would win at chess? confused

master harmax
Me! I'd win - beat both Vader and Sidious hollow if it came down to chess. smokin'

yerssot
but they can forsee your moves

master harmax
So can I dude -you don't have to be force master to foresee moves on the chess board - the possibilities in a chess position and the probable moves likely to happen can be foreseen by anyone who knows chess strategy and has the memory to calculate moves in advance - nothing his hidden, you see, unlike in for instance card games - everything's in the open.

So, yeah .... I'd kick both Vader's and Maul's behinds if it came down to chess. cool

yerssot
They can forsee the move you are doing with an accuracy of 100%

master harmax
Yeah well, I'll keep Bjork sitting behind me and continuously staring at Vader or Maul ( whoever I'm playing ) ...staring unblinking at them continuously ... I bet that would have a mighty adverse effect on their concentration, so that their brain signals get all distorted ... and I'd STILL beat either of them that way. big grin

yerssot
personally I hope they would use the Force choke on her then!

jedi212guy
I think I could beat Vader in a round of hoops, as lonmg as he didn't block my shots. He's about 18 inches taller than me. wink

jedi212guy
AND no jokes about length. stick out tongue

yerssot
shoot! And I had a good joke this time!

master harmax
its ok - go ahead and tell it - whats jedi212guy going to do anyway ? its not like he's bjork. so you don't have to worry. smile

yerssot
Nah, he still needs to be friendly to me!

ryamathart
LIke i say in alot of my replys read shadow hunter if you already havent, this book should of been the first prequel movie.
Darth maul could easily kill vader. IN the period of 50 hours he kills 2 jedi and about 30 lifeforms. So far vader only has a record of like people a day. Darth maul is an expert force user using his abilities to track down people that must be killed.

master harmax
No dude - anakin's the chosen one - so vader/ anakin is not just another force master ( jedi/sith ) - he's unique and more powerful with the force than anyone including Yoda or Darth Sidious - I think I would be right in saying that the movies take precedence over books - and Maul basically killed ONE jedi master - and got wasted himself by that jedi master's padawan - Vader on the other hand wiped out the WHOLE jedi order ( except for Yoda and Obi Wan) - and just to name a few super jedi we're going to see him wipe out in Ep.3 : Mace Windu, Ki Adi Mundi, Kit Fisto ... Maul on the other hand got killed by an APPRENTICE jedi - not even yet officially a master. He's just another sith lord - nothing special - Vader/Anakin is special.
As for Maul LOOKING more ferocious than Vader, please refer to my post on the Duel of the Sith Lord thread in the ep.4,5,6 forum - this same debate's happpening there, and I needn't retpye the same points I've made there, again here.

yerssot
ry, that's EU, so it doesn't count

Ushgarak
Look, a high midi-chlorian count, or Chosen One status. does NOT guarantee that you are the best sabre fighter! Just what IS this mentality?

And as the movie made clear, Maul won that sabre duel easily, but his arrogance was his undoing AFTER the fight was over.

And Harmax, you should stop talking factually about things we do not know yet. You ay he kills such and such a person, but we do not KNOW if that is trure. And we do not know if he killed all those Jedi personally- all we know is that he HELPED the Empire track down and destroy the Jedi. Speculate if you want but don't state it as fact.

BTW, if this thread becomes like the other one then I will close this one as well. I don't want to see the same arguments said over and over again across several threads.

yerssot
The Chosen One...
are you saying that perhaps he isn't a good swordsman and that it's only talent that he has?

Ushgarak
Of COURSE he will be a good swordsman- he's a big hero/villain. But does it say anywhere that the Chosen One has to be the finest swordsman ever? No!

yerssot
indeedy,
the Chosen One is just the one that brings down the Jedi and the Sith, without other things?

Ushgarak
Nothing to do with bringong down Jedi. The Chosen One brings Balance to the Force. That's all.

And apparently, is also the most powerful Jedi ever, which is cool, bvut does not necessarily translate to finest swordsman!

That said, I think he WILL be one of the finest swordsmen ever, but Obi-Wan still beats him and he cannot fight properly with a virtually destroyed spine!

yerssot
The one that will bring balance...
but if there are only one of each, there is balance

Ushgarak
Good Lord, yerssot, you know better than that. Restoring Balance is PURELY an act of destroying the Sith, as GL has carefully explained.

The Universe is balanced. The Sith bring the imbalance. Destroying the Sith restores the Balance. There is no more to it.

Nothing to do with balancing numbers, powers, or anything else.

yerssot
but if you destroy the Sith you only have the "white" left

master harmax
I would still like to think that the most powerful jedi ( or sith ) ever should also be the best fighter of all the jedi ( or sith ) as well.

By the way did Lucas really say that the phrase " bringing balance to the force " refers to the act of killing the sith ?

And yeah, I agree, it's to early to say for certain that Vader was PERSONALLY responsible of murdering the jedi that remain for Ep.3 ( except Yoda and Obi Wan ) - but I think that that's what will be shown in Ep.3 - in order to fully portray the awesome potential and strength of Vader / Anakin - you know something like Vader killing in combat, jedi like Mace Windu for one amongst others. We've gotta see Vader in his prime kicking ass - like we saw Maul.

yerssot
I didn't knew he said that about balance

Ushgarak
Yes, he did. It is the Sith eho seek to unbalance the Force by making the Dark Side overwhelmingly dominant. That is their true evil.

Only the Sith's destruction can restore the Balance.

yerssot
when? where? that is more important

master harmax
That explanation of " bringing balance " makes what the significance of Anakin being the chosen one is, much more clearier.

Ushgarak
Indeed. GL pften talked to Jake Lloyd about thgis, so he did not feel bad about playing a person who would become such a villain- because he later destroys the Emperor and so brings balance.

Julie
The bad guy who becomes the good guy....ah....redemption.....
"yeah"
*cheer on the good guys*

score one for balance.

master harmax
The good guy becomes the bad guy becomes the good guy again.
That's a lot like real life - I've seen that happen.

Julie
Really????

I'm not sure I want to have any real life experiences with that sort of thing.

master harmax
It happens all the time - lot of people start out nice when they're young, and when the hit real life, they kind of change over the years, and pretty soon, they aren't pure the way they were when they were young. To a certain extent, I think that happens to all of us.
That's one of the reasons i like star wars : it captures in a very simple way, some very subtle aspects of real life - a lot of guys start out talented and unspoilt ( like anakin ) - you see them 20 years later, it's like they're different people - and you can hardly believe that this is the same guy who was so cool 20 years back.
Well now, he's 45 and changed -
I'm 27 so I haven't had totally first hand experience of this happen in front of my eyes. But I have seen such people in my life.

Going through life can sort of have that effect on you if you don't tackle it's challenges in the right way. That's true life - and StarWars has captured that pretty well.

Julie
Somebody famous once said that Drama ought to hold a mirror up to life.

master harmax
Well, that's the case with starwars allright !

Emp. Dan
Vader uses the force way more, in ep 1 Maul used the force twice because he couldn't be arsed to open a door and to get Obi-Wan of his face.

Julie
Maul's fighting seemed to be fiercer, but then again, his prime was in an age when the sith and jedi were still at peak performance....He might have used the force more had he lived longer.

DarthKris
sorry, but my only statement is:
Vader IS a legend.
Darth Maul is nothing in comparism.

Obi-wan Kenobi
I think Darth Maul would win, because he was younger.

yerssot
ow, here's that thread!

"He is the Chosen One, you must see it" big grin

master harmax
big grin wink

Ushgarak
So what if he is the bloody Chosen One? Still loses more than he wins in SW, doesn't he?

master harmax
You don't care too much for Anakin d u Ush ? wink

Well ... he did take care of ol' palpy .... so thats something ! smokin'

Ushgarak
I care PLENTY for him. He achieves amazing things, helps destroy the Jedi, founds the Empire and defeats Palpatine. I should think that is accolade enough for him, without having to say that being the Chosen One by default makes him superior to everyone in every way. He has his limitations like everyone else, otherwise he would be a very boring character.

Hence back to my fundamental point., Vader may be, in most ways, superior to Darth Maul but in sabre fighting- at least by his Original Trilogy days- he was not, and that is not just down to productioin values. The miracle is that he was still walking at ALL by then, let alone being as good at sabre fighting as he was in his glory days!

yerssot
We only see old crippled and half-mechanicals do sabrefights and young boys who learned from them
(or something like that)
Pretty clear GL himself thinks Maul can beat Vader in a sabrefight

LanceWindu
Maul can beat Vader but not Maul can defeat Anakin.

master harmax
Well I have to agree with Ush that the sabre fighting thing is a dodgy point ...
but I am still inclined to go with Vader, in a one on one situation againt Maul, even if lightsabres were part of the combat deal .... because even if Vader is inferior to Maul in sabre warfare, his exceptional strength with the force would more than make up for it ....

And yeah .... Anakin and Vader are two different personalities .... and I don't think Maul can beat EITHER of them. wink

Bantha Fodder
Vader would win, since Anakin becomes the most powerful Jedi.

Maul was whipped by Obi Wan, but Obi Wan cannot defeat Anakin.

However, there are other things going for Vader worthy of noting:

1. Vader doesn't wear make-up, Maul does. Advantage: Vader.

2. Maul has a double-bladed light saber, while Vader has a normal one. Advantage: Maul.

3. Vader looks more bad-ass. Advantage: Vader.

4. Vader has cool lines and uses them. Maul is practically a mute and he doesn't have any cool lines. Advantage: Vader.

5. Vader never sleeps. Maul probably doesn't either. Advantage: neither.

6. Vader wasted Darth Sideous. Maul wasted Qui Gon. Advantage: Vader.

7. Vader shagged a beautiful Queen. No woman would go near Maul, he's an ugly mofo. Advantage: Vader.

8. Maul is a loner, while Vader is a "people-person" who likes to be in charge of others, and kill anyone who's disobedient. Advantage: Maul.

9. Vader had the Death Star, Maul had a scooter. Advantage: Vader.

10. Vader's suit undoubtedly smells horribly (we never see him wash it), while Maul's clothing appears to be laundered. Advantage: Maul.

yerssot
Maul wares tatoes not make-up

A double-bladed lightsabre is difficult to handle, it's not because it's more flashy that he gets an advantage


He was in only one movie and he had about the same amount of lines as Boba, and BOBA is considered as one of the coolest of the universe


Maul FOUGHT Qui Gon, Vader THREW Palpatine

master harmax
uh uh uh uh yerssot ....

*** Harmax in Yerssot's voice : " He's the chosen one, u must see !! "

yerssot
you forget one thing harmax...
ANAKIN is the Chosen One, not Vader

Ushgarak
I'm getting dizzy with all the circles we are going in here...

The general consensus is, with some exceptions, that Maul is a better sabreist than Vader but this does not make him a superior foe.

Unless someone wants to add anything new, I'll probably close this.

Bantha Fodder
You forget one thing....Anakin IS Vader, and Vader IS Anakin. They are one person!

It is Vader/Anakin who destroys the Emperor, bringing balance to the force. He is the chosen one. As Yoda would say, "things are not always what they seem". In a very circuitous way, Anakin does what no other Jedi is capable of: he destroys the Emperor.

The really intriguing part is that if Anakin hadn't disobeyed the Jedi code by shagging Amadila, then Luke Skywalker wouldn't have existed, and there wouldn't have been anyone who could have brought forth the "good" in Vader. It was because of Anakin's restlessness and rebelliousness that he was able to kill the Emperor. That's some cool writing on Lucas's part! smile I wish he had been as inspired when he made TPM. sad

Bantha Fodder
Yerssot,

Those points were supposed to be funny/sarcastic. You don't need to argue them. wink

peluffo
everithing you have posted so far (I mean your 22 posts) has argue as target. I don't know what you are doing here.

yerssot
The good man that was once your father ceised to exist and became Vader (or something like that, can't remember/bothered), so there's a cannon quote saying that they aren't 100% the same person


It's Anakin, he turned back to the light, becoming Anakin again


He did get a lot of competition: Two old persons

Ushgarak
Ok, now we are just off-topic. I'm closing this; open a new thread about all that if you want.

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