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This is a thread about the three movie Sith Lords. Each of you will vote on the poll. When everyones done voting, #1 in the poll with be fighting #2 in the poll in a story I'll write. #3 will be busy doing something (on the computer, in bed, at the market, etc.). Vote away!

Anakin is the chosen one, he will win

Is this a sabre duel or a general thing? If it is a sabre duel than Vader will lose.

but if they can use the Force, Vader gets an A+

I saying whoever wins the poll with duel the #2 guy on the poll. So far it's Vader vs. Dooku.

Oh well, bye bye Vader... who would never be stupid enough to duel a superior opponent.

vader would just force choke them and laugh

If it were that simple he would never have lost to anyone ever.

No, it seems Force powers are only of limited use in a duel unless you are someone like the Emperor.

so far we know he doesn't has a sabre, so technically he can't duel

do we know that vader lost to anyone ever? I dont think he did. he "loses" to luke in ROTJ, but he was well on the way to returing to the light side. theres no way he would use force choke on his own son. its just not "gentlemanly"

Tyrannus

We all know it is VERY likely that he lost to Obi-Wan.

could be a standoff, ie: him falling from something

it was my understanding that we are talking about post EPIII anakin skywalker. where he is truly no longer anakin, but is darth vader, in life support armor. we know anakin gets whooped in EPII. not darth vader.

He would have done it to Obi-Wan, then, in ANH.

As we nevewr see grip used on other Jedi in duels, it must be because it;s not a good idea- maybe it;s not fast enough, maybe Jedi are resistant to it... maybe they can directly fight it with the Force. I don't know.

But my point about Obi-Wan beating him while in Ankin form is that he still lost a duel, even while at the height of his powers. Now, there may be many factors that go into that, but the point is that while crippled he is very unlikely to be able to fair well at ALL against a full-powered prequel era opponent.

hmmmm, mabye anakin was never taught to fight well. he gets his but handed to him at the end of AOTC. he doesnt train anymore in EPIII. maybe hes just not good.

Ooh... controversial.

I would be very surprised (and Vader fans heartbroken!) if Anakin never becomes a good swordfighter.

If he doesn't, we can scratch the idea of him killing Dooku in III...

But I rather think Anakin will turn out to be rather good at it.

he can beat dooku, but not obiwan, even though dooku beat obiwan and anakin. hmmm. seems like "luck" could come into play alot. but as obiwan said, "in my experience, theres no such thing as luck." i think that is a key line in ANH.

Obi-Wan can improve, of course. As can Anakin.

I think Obi-Wan has a great talent for duelling that only gets better and better. And has then lapsed by ANH, of course- though even then he is not to be trifled with.

And Anakin is just meant to be the dude at just about everything.

and so we are right back to the issue of how the heck obiwan can beat anakin

Well, Anakin may be a general dude, but Obi-Wan might be a SUPER dude at sabre fighting... I mean, his talent shown is amazing.

And we shouldn't entirely write off his 15 years more age and over 20 years more training.

Basically, they are both legends. Anakin may be the best overall, but for Obi-Wan to be superior in one field is not impossib.le.

And then there might be the situation- Anakin wounded, surprised, confused, not in full control...

But in the end, it's just Obi-Wan's day, I think. He IS a hero, after all.

I think Obiwan is a better fighter than Anakin because he was trained the way a jedi should be, first with yoda, then as a padawan learner. Anakin did not have the benefit of Yodas training. I dont think this has alot to do with saberfighting, necessarily, but more with controlling your emotions during the battle. Obiwan is at peace, thus he is able to defeat Anakin, whos emotions are raging over SOMETHING.

That makes sense on paper, but would seem contradictory. Luke only beat Vader because he gave in to anger. Obiwan only beat Maul because he gave into anger. It would seem thus far, that anger, and thus the dark side, lends to more aggressive, and thus winning, sabre battles.

#1 in the poll win will the battle, and the person in 2nd place will lose, and the person in 3rd place won't duel. In other words, Vader will defeat Dooku and Maul won't do anything.

Err... no, Obi-Wan DIDN'T beat Maul due to anger. His anger did give him power, granted, but it also left him fatally vunerable to Mau's push that effectively won Maul the fight,

Maul then hit the 'bad guiy arrogance' syndrome and fluffed it. Obi-Wan calmed his mind, concentrated, and won it with a surprise blow.

I would imagine that there is no advanatge to be gained from either side. BUT the Dark Side is easier, of course! Luke hadn't mastered the Force yet, but his powers started to flow when he got angry because it was so much easier!

Fully trained Jedi have no such problem, so I don;t think there is a Dark Side superiority here.

But I still think Anakin will be top-notch and Obi-Wan simply has to be better, because he is one heck of a hero.

What does that have to do with my poll and the duel I'll right up? I've heard this before.

a simple poll doesnt make for very interesting discussion. ;-)

and when i watch TPM, when Obi-wan is hanging and Maul is taunting him, as Obiwan looks over at qui-gon's lightsaber, he looks REAL MAD to me. Maybe its just me and hes really just grunting under physical strain, but that's how I remember it.

We've been this way before on the other thread you know ... the way the poll is going now, its gonna be Vader vs. Dooku - and anyone who tells me that Vader's gonna lose to count cockadoodlewhatshisname is a Taliban -
also, I can't help myself although all this has been gone through on another thread, but I've got to say :

1. Dooku beats Anakin when Anakin is still a padawan NOT a fully fledged jedi master - Dooku beats him when he is still inexperienced, imperfect and has a lot to learn - so although he's the chosen one and potentially the greatest dude, he's not ready to take on Dooku yet in AOTC, who, is also one of the greatest Jedi that the order ever produced ( before he fell to the dark side ). So you can't really count this victory --- and similarly ....

2. I think Obi Wan beats him under similar circumstances in Ep.3 -
although Anakin will have grown as a jedi by the time we get to Ep.3, he STILL won't have hit his peak as a jedi - by Ep.3, Obi Wan to Anakin will be kind of like Qui Gon to Obi Wan in TPM - Obi Wan was great but not in his prime like his master Qui Gon - similarly Anakin will be a great and poweful jedi in Ep.3 but will NOT have hit his peak - Obi Wan on the other hand in Ep.3 will be at his greatest peak of skills as a jedi. And furthermore,we will never get to see Anakin at his PEAK as a jedi because he turns to the dark side before he can reach the jedi heights he's capable of reaching.

3. Darth Vader is NOT slow and all,because he's been crippled by his injuries and hampered by his battle armour - he's slow because David Prowse the actor who played him was not a kick ass martial artist - so we have to discount the appearance of Vader as slow in single combat and put it down to artistic licence.
What we DO know is Vader was responsible for the destruction of all the jedi except for Obi Wan and Yoda ( those who survive at the end of AOTC e.g. Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Ki Adi Mundi and more ) - Darth Vader in his prime and as far as I am concerned that includes the episodes 3,4 and 5 - was unbeatable - ultimately only HIS son could beat him - not even Darth Sidious could escape Vader (/Anakin) in the end - so that highest midiclorean count thing is not a trivial thing - leaving Yoda aside, Anakin / Vader has to be the greatest warrior, including sabre dueling, force tricks etc.etc.

as yerssot puts it - He's the chosen one, you must see.

My little hope is that while duelling, Anakin slides, and he falls.
OB1 can grab his hand but because of the weight and the heat he lets go (not intentionally) and Anakin blames him for that

Master Harmax, we DO know that Vader was crippled and slowed by his injuries because GEORGE LUCAS HAS SAID SO.

He made it VERY plain that all the prequel era sabreists are better.

You can criticise GL for making it like that if you want, but it IS like that, nothing you will say will change that, and that's the end of it.

ush is absolutely right. i hope obiwan defeating anakin isnt a total accident type thing. i want obiwan to kick his @$$. obiwan cant defeat anakin from some accident. it just wouldnt be right. and that could very well go against the line "in my experience, theres no such thing as luck." obiwan defeats anakin from sheer better fighting skills.

OB1 will kick @$$. Maybe during the fight, Anakin will be pushed back and fall after a surprising blow. Then OB1 will grab his hand and will not intentionally let go. That would be awesome.

I voted for Maul just to even up the #2 contender spot.

Hey yerssot, who the hell is Darth Legion, anyway?

A completely non-existant fan guess at the next Sith Lord, with a personality and lines taken straight from the Bible, that due to typical fan-rumour syndrome made a lot of people think it was true.

Yerss thinks the idea is cool and wishes it were true (shiver).

I didn't like the rumor first (I knew it was a rumor, because it was too early for the real one)
I didn't payed attention to it, but after a while the line
"My name is Legion, for I am many" came back in my mind, and it sticked there

Lance!

I've decided to make this a duel, then a chess tournament (don't ask me why). Interesting, no?

Very interesting Cap.Rex, chess is my favourite hobby.

By the way Ush, I just wanted to know where and when did GL say that Vader appears slow in duels in the OT because he's been crippled by his injuries. And also, if indeed he was slowed down by his injuries, then how did he manage to hunt down and destroy the all the jedi except two ( all the jedi who survive Ep.2 ), and there are some pretty kick ass and mean jedi knights, at least as good as Obi Wan, who are left over for Ep.3 - and finally, if Obi Wan managed to beat Anakin, who was NOT slowed down and hampered by his injuries, then why did he not try to take on and defeat Vader who WAS slowed down by injuries - why did he wait for 20 years to grow old, lose his prowess, meet Anakin/Vader's son ( that also because of Vader's daughter trying to get some plans across and all that ), and THEN go to battle Vader in a battle station ? Couldn't he have tried much earlier to destroy Vader - it stands to reason that if Anakin was a better sabreist BEFORE he got busted by OB1 than after, then OB1 should have been able to defeat Vader when he (OB1), was still in his prime.

Sorry, one more thing - if OB1 defeated Anakin, and Anakin lost his speed and prowess by the time he became Vader, because of his injuries, then OB1, in his prime, should have been able to take on the emperor as well, because Vader managed to destroy the emperor, AFTER he was really crippled in a duel with his son, AND had lost his hand ... now OB1 defeated Anakin, when Anakin was not injured or anything - Anakin destroys the Emperor AFTER firstly he's had his skills reduced because of his encounter with OB1, and when he's been beaten and crippled in a battle with his son, and plus he himself is now old and not in his prime anymore- so it stands to reason that OB1 in his prime should be able to defeat not only Vader, but the emperor as well. And like I said, if Anakin couldn't defeat Obi Wan before his injuries, how did he manage to wipe out so many other jedi, who were at least as good as Obi Wan, after being slowed down and hampered by injuries recieved in his duel with Obi Wan ?

The point I'm trying to make is that the whole thing of Vader being slowed down and hampered by his injuries is a little suspect ....

GL said it in an interview where he talked about the upcoming sabre fighting for the new trilogy. It doesn't take much effort to find.

We don;t know how many Jedi were dead before his injuries. Also, Vader can still fight, just nowhere near as well as he could. We omly ever see really good sabre fighters in the films, so it may be easier for him to hunt down other Knights. besides, he still has his cunning, his warriro sense, and the resources of ther Empire on his side.

We have no idea why Obi-Wan did not finish off Anakin- but he didn't, and that is all there is to it. Simply stating this fact, that we all know to be true, does not affect this issue in the slightest. Maybe he didn;t have an opportunity. Maybe the whole issue was too painful for him to return to. We don;t KNOW, do we? And we won't until ep. III.

Vader did NOT destroy the Emperor because he was better than the Emperor- it was obvious that the Emperor was better than all. The ONLY reason Vader could do it was because he was the Chosen One. As it was, it was the sheer surprise of Vader's move- the one thing the Emperor did not anticipate- that killed the Emperor.

Saying Obi-Wan could defeat the Emperor is nonsense.

But in any case, this argument is pointless. GL has SAID how it is, and that IS how it is. As I say, nothing you say or do will change that.

Besides, isn't it bloody obvious that such crippling injuries would knacker Vader?

I wonder if that interview by GL would be available on Starwars.com if I searched for it.
But I've got to say that the emperor was the best of all EXCEPT for Darth Vader - being the "chosen one" implies that Darth Vader (Anakin) was exceptionally strong with the force in a way that no other jedi / sith lord was ... and ONLY Darth Vader / Anakin ( with the highest midiclorean count and all that ) had the power to destroy the emperor ... whether by a surprise move or otherwise.

And I didn't mean to imply that Obi Wan was better than the emperor - I was just trying to make the point that if Obi Wan in his prime was superior to Vader in his prime, then that would mean that Obi Wan was better than the emperor - which is NOT the case - therefore Obi Wan in his prime couldn't have been more powerful than Darth Vader ( NOT Anakin ) in his prime - slowed down or otherwise. Which leads us to the point that Darth Vader couldn't have been slowed down by injuries and all because if as Anakin, unscathed and healthy, he was beaten by Obi Wan, than as Vader, if he was slower and less powerful than he was as Anakin, he would definitely be lesser than Obi Wan - which wasn't the case.

Anyway, don't mind me nitpicking and all - I just love Vader that's all
I'm off to find that Lucas interview where he says Vader was slowed down by his injuries from the battle with OB1 - I'd be grateful if you could suggest some leads for me to find it. By the way that Brit slang ( "bloody marvellous that .... would knacker Vader" ) is really cool.


P.S. : Considering Count Dooku is a part of the poll, shouldn't this thread be moved back to Ep.2 / Ep.3 ?

It's a false analogy. Just because Obi-Wan heroically defeated Anakin in a sabre duel it does not follow that Obi-Wan is more powerful than Vader, or the Emperor.

And if Vader is more powerful than the Emperor, why is HE the apprentice?

"I MUST obey my Master."

Not the words of someone with more power.

Vader'll prob win....just my POV

When it comrs to OT vs. PT fights, it doesn't really come down to opinion. All the PT ones are of higher 'quality' due to the problems of the fighters in the OT.

Vader's the apprentice because the Emperor used him and made Vader think that he (Palpatine) was better. He helped him (with the suit to keep him alive), so why would he kill someone who helped him (even though I would if they were bad enough)?

Remind me not to ever work for you!

Vader or Palpy more evil????????

Palpy's more evil, Vader's just smarter.

DARE program in the Star Wars universe:

"Okay kids, don't do Dark Side!" says Mace.

Don't you worry, I live in CA, you live in NJ. I don't think you'll work for me.

Well I feel it does follow that if Obi Wan beat Anakin, then that means he was better than Anakin - and if Vader was slowed down as a result of his injuries, so that he was not the same fighter he was as Anakin, then that means Obi Wan was better than Vader - which is definitely not the case.
Which is why I feel, that the explanation of Vader not being such a hot fighter because of his injuries isn't good enough - the fact is Vader did look scary and awesome as a fighter, UNTIL Phantom Menace - which was made in 99, and with better technology and emphasis on the actors looking much better in fight scenes ( Ray Park in any case IS an actor who knows martial arts ) Vader did not look so awesome anymore in comparison - and so the convenient explanation that he was slowed down by injuries etc... the thing is, if the OT was made in the late nineties, they would have made sure that Vader ( as in the case of Maul ) would have been shown to be a fearsome fighter in single combat, much more than what they filmed him 15 years back.
Take a hypothetical situation - say in 10 years they film Ep.7 - and one of the sith lords is a martial artist of the level of Bruce Lee - then Ray Park would appear much slower and ordinary in comparison - and then somebody explains that away by saying that Darth Maul was slow because he did not start his training under Darth Sidious when he was young enough or something like that ... that's basically what we are doing now.
And just because Vader was the apprentice with lines like " I must obey my master " does not neccessarily imply that Palpatine was more powerful ... like Cap. Rex says, Palpatine was the one who taught Anakin the ways of the dark side, set him up with a battle armour that kept him alive etc. - so basically that line is just a case of Vader accepting Palpatine as his guru - it does not neccessarily mean that Palpy's more powerful than Vader - although Vader in the end attacked his master in a surprise move, he DID in the process absorb the evil lightening, and was NOT overwhelmed by it, as was Luke.
Being the "chosen one" suggests that Anakin/Vader had a certain strength with the force that no one else including Darth Sidious or Yoda had.
Dudes, don't you think this poll should be shifted back to the Ep.2/3 forum ? Ain't enough people voting, and I think thats something to do with the fact that this is the ep.4/5/6 forum and most people head straight for the Ep.2/3 forums than for the old stuff.
Count Dooku is a character from Ep.2 and 3 so there shouldn't be a problem.

Vader did NOT look awesome in the originals, he looked slow and cumbersome. That was rather the point.

And why does it follow that Obi-Wan is the more powerful just because he beat Anakin in a sabre fight? As we have already said many times, sabre fighting is not all there is for power.

And Obi-Wan might just have been better on the day. But Vader and the Emperor are still clearly more powerful.

In any case- argue it out with George Lucas, not me. It's his choice.

This thread is as good here as anywhere else.

Do I have to say QGJ's quote again???

Er, yes please ... I've had rather a long day, and what QGJ quoted regarding this debate doesn't enter my brain.

And I'm NOT saying that Obi Wan's better than the emperor or Vader - just the opposite.

He IS the Chosen One, you must see this!

Not again!

I think vader was only powerful because thats all that there really was in terms of fighting, thanks to him killing all the jedi. The fights looked cool when it was vader vs. luke butt if a prequel era jedi or sith fought vader in his aging form he would be toast especially against someone like maul.
Read the book shadow hunter and youll see why maul is such a badass.

There is NO way that vader would be toast against ANYONE - ageing or otherwise - ( except for his own son ) - like yerss says - for the 10th time - He's the CHOSEN ONE, you MUST see - he WAS made to look badass and overwhelming as a fighter the OT, by Lucas, with whatever resources he had at the time in terms of actors, etc. he may not look quite as deadly now, or fast because TPM was made in the late nineties with much better resources, and Ray Parks who played Darth Maul was a good martial artist, unlike David Prowse - so please don't confuse the actor with the character - Ray Parks would probably kick David Prowse's ass in single combat - but the CHARACTER Darth Vader would and did kick EVERYBODY's ass ( including the granddaddy of them all, Darth Sidious ) - except for his own son - and mostly he did it all in single combat - he's the chosen one with the highest midiclorean count of everyone INCLUDING Yoda - so try to imagine Bruce Lee, think of him as over 7ft tall weighing 250 pounds playing the character of Darth Vader - imagine how insane he would look in single combat then - THAT'S what Darth Vader, the CHARACTER is all about. Unfortunately, Bruce Lee was dead in 1977 - but just you guys wait and see Vader in Ep.3 - I can bet my bottom dollar Lucas is going to hire a huge and deadly fast martial artist, to wear the mask of Vader (and Maul and everyone else are gonna look like Roger Rabbit in comparison) just to put it all in perspective that Vader/Anakin is in a league of his own apart from everyone else.

Right, ok, this is becomog tedious.

Harmax, have that opinion if you want, but officially you are WRONG. GL has spoken on this issue and this CANNOT be denied. Vader IS outclassed by the earlier combatants.

We are going around in circles here. Unless someone has something new to add to this debate I will close this thread.

when did he said that actually?

When he was talking about the swordfighting for the upcoming TPM.

Seriously, does anyone have anything new to add? Because we are only going to be screaming the same things at each other.

*screams*
Was that on the DVD? (the internet docus?)

Vader will win because he kills obi-wan and obi-wan killed darth maul. And i heard Vader kills Dooku in episode III.

But not AFTER his injuries, so unless we are talkinmg about a pre-inkury Vader that doesn't help. Such debate is still pointless- GL's quote ruling Vader out of the 'best fighter' equation remains.