Who is the STRONGEST?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



jedi fernando

Captain REX
Vader's the strongest, but Dooku/Tyrannus is the second strongest. Has a cool lightsaber too.

Phanekim
1) yoda
2) vader

I'm not sure about palpatine though. I would rate him 2 and vader 3 then. Actually he might just be stronger than yoda.

Ushgarak
Sidious is the strongest, Chosen One or oitherwise. Yoda clearly told Luke not to underestimate the power of the EMPEROR, a warnign that clearly indicates that the Emperor os more powerful than anything Luke has faced before, including Vader.

Furthermore, Vader treats Palpatine with extreme respect and says "I MUST obey my Master'

Words said by someone of inferior power.

Anakin may be the Chosen One, but Palpatine is obviously privy to extreme power as well- even more, I feel.

Phanekim
so i guess it comes down to yoda v palpatine. with vader as 3.

WHO WILL WIN. lol. we'll get more of a sense of how strong yoda is in AOTC.

I'd like to think yoda could kick some butt in his prime.

Aquarius87
You do realise there are no women in that poll..
Why is this always so sad

jedi fernando

Phanekim
i dont know...but i'll tell you one thing!

The "force" is strong in Princess Leia and Queen Amidala!
esp, when they wear tight revealing clothing as a means to lessen the restraining clothing to amplify the force within them.

Can i get a AMEN from chauvenistic gusy everywhere!

Ratcat
That's incorrect, Jango is NOT a clone..... roll eyes (sarcastic)

sand person no. 10
amen!!!

jedi fernando

Ratcat
OK, I'll just clarify that in the choices... smile

yerssot
Strongest? Palpa I think

Ushgarak
Ah- but what if I want to vote for Jango?

yerssot
you're a mod, you can change it

Ushgarak
Oooh, I would hate to do that.

yerssot
faking it!

master harmax
Firstly, AMEN.

And yerss, buddy, what happened to the " chosen one you must see " ? You can't seriously tell me that if vader and palpy went at it, palps would win !

I mean whats he gonna do - bombard the hat man with lightening ? That would just about tickle Vader ( in fact thats ONE way of getting Vader to laugh and hear how that sounds )
All Vader would have to do is BREATH on Palps and that would probably give him a heart attack - and while Palps is on the floor asphyxiating, Vader could give him teeth whitening treatment with his lightsabre. smokin'

yerssot
it's because what Ush said: counting everything, Vader had a lot of respect to him, talked about a master and obeying

master harmax
yeah - respect and all that because he learnt all the dark side ways to have fun with the force and all that - but still dude - c'mon - i can still understand a debate in the case of maul because of the sabre dueling thing and all - and maybe Ush does have a point there - but palps ? c'mon. As Mcenroe would say " You can't be serious man "

Phanekim
palp's ability has yet to be seen. all we know is his awesome lightning crud. lolol.

Palpatine: "So be it..." (shocks luke for minutes which seems liek an eternity)

Luke: "FAAAATTHHHEEERRR....FATTTTHEEERRR" (while having himself electrocuted)

Thats pretty powerful if u ask me.

master harmax
At which point vader picks him up ( inspite of a broken arm and having the crap just kicked out of him by luke ) and dumps him at the bottom of the death star - and absorbed a fair deal of lightening himself in the process. All that sideous the hideous could do with all his dark side power was holler in helplessness.
We've seen sideous's worst in ROTJ - its not good ( or bad ) enough for vader.

Ushgarak
But that is only because it was the fulfillment of the Prophecy.

I am sorry, but Vader clearly was treating Sidious as a superior being. The evidence is that Palpatine is more powerful in general. More powerful does not mean indestructible- especially from the one source he did not expect any more trouble from.

master harmax
Exactly - fulfillment of the prophecy - Vader is the one guy in the galaxy who has the power to destroy sideous.

Look at the facts man - vader is twice as big, armed, etc.etc.
all that sideous has going for him is force and lightening - lightening ain't enough when it comes to vader - and force ? vader's the strongest with the force. and palpy's got NO lightsabre - just how is he going to stop vader from walking upto him and chopping his head off ?

And Vader's words of respect when addressing palpy doesn't imply palpy's superiority - it's just words of respect from one who has learnt to one who has taught - NOT in this case from pupil to master.

Ushgarak
I think that respect speaks volumes. And if Anakin was more powerful why was he unable to defeat Palpatine?

Look, even YODA feared Palpatine.

I am afraid that only a mindless love of Vader could make someone think he was stronger than Palpy when the whole mood of ROTJ shows otherwise.

You should see some oif GL's original plans for Palpy, which had him totally humiliating Vader during the film!

master harmax
Because Anakin was not Vader - Anakin's a student - Vader's a master. And it speaks volumes that whatever plans Lucas had to show Vader being humiliated, ( by the way how did you know of them ? ), he did not eventually include them in ROTJ - he wouldn't because NO one has the power to beat Vader, except HIS own son.
Vader's showing respect to Palpatine, because he learnt the ways of the dark side from him, plus it was palpy who set him up with his armour and all - so the respect; Vader would never even think of whether he was more powerful than his master or not.

and it's not a mindless love dude - Vader's not that dark haired babe in Roswell or something .... its just the facts - like I said, HOW is Palpy going to stop him from walking over to him and chopping his head off with a lightsabre ?

jedi fernando

yerssot
we haven't seen Palpys powers, but if Vader is humble to him and Palpy can fry Luke in a few seconds, he is powerfull!
AND, he didn't got noticed when he was senator

ToMacco
Actually Anakin, but I voted Vader

Ushgarak
Well, if you do not agree, Harmax, you do not agree, but I still think that is a very odd interpretation you have. And the original script still had Vader killing Palpy at the end; it was just more clearly shown how superior the Emperor was throughout the film.

Phanekim
anyone can saber duel...but who has the ability to shoot lightning out of his fingertips? only one that i know of.

and palpy woulda have done to vader what he did to luke. Fry him.

but to each his own smile. that woulda made a good match. Vader v Sidious.

I put money on sidious though.

Darth Ninja
Darth Sidious/Palpatine IS afraid of Darth Vader. While Sidious/Palpaptine is the master Sith lord, he still is very careful not to push Vader too far, by angering him too greatly.

yerssot
like ... when?

Ushgarak
Yes, that rather strikes me as nonsense.

yerssot
*in Batmans voice*
Perhaps we missed a clue...
Back to the Batcave Robin!

master harmax
Well, for whatever reason, GL did not use the original script which had the emperor being shown as very dominant and superior. And I think that has some significance. Also, I agree Sideous IS badass - anyone who can meet yoda day in and day out for more than a decade, and not let yoda, feel the slightest bit strange about him, HAS to be a BAD dude - no disputes there. All I'm saying is he wouldn't have enough to stop Vader - he stopped everyone else; and converted Anakin to the dark side and taught him it's ways, so the question of fighting him didn't arise.

I don't want to irritate Ush by repeating myself, but like I said in a previous post, all that siddy had going for him was :
1. Force lightening : This is NOT enough to stop Vader - Vader wouldn't crumble the way Luke fell apart - he's much too powerful for that to happen.

2. Force tricks : Well what's Vader going to do when palpy's using the force ? Count his fingers ? Nope. Vader's stronger with the force than anyone else.

AND FINALLY : siddy's got NO lightsabre - only lightening - and we haven't seen anymore mad powers from him in TPM, and from what we know from spoilers he isn't going to be doing anything newly spectacular in AOTC either;

so it's a clear logical equation guys. If the reason that Vader DID beat palpy was just a simple fulfillment of prophecy, and NOT because he was special or exceptionally powerful more than either sideous OR yoda, why would Lucas make him out to be special or exceptional ? ( highest midiclorean count etc. ) - even if he was a run of the mill jedi, he would have still stopped palpy because of the prophecy - what would be the need to make him extra special ? obviously to convey to us that Anakin / Vader IS special; not just another jedi, who's going to luckily by chance beat the baddest sith lord ( who even yoda couldn't beat ), because of the prophecy. That's why the line : " Even master yoda doesn't have a count that high." in TPM.

I've made it long again without the double line spacing ( sorry yers ), and repeated many things I've said elsewhere ( sorry Ush )
- but I do believe I have a pretty logical case in there.

haakun
I have voted for Vader. Why?... In ANH we discover that a great number of Jedi were destroyed by Vader (not Sidius) and in ROTJ Vader kills the Emperor.

yerssot
But Vader talks about his master, and he MUST obbey him...

btw: welcome aboard, stay, post, get a drink, write something about yourself in the welcome section etc

haakun
Yes, but we don't now THE REASON because Vader must obbey him. If Sidius is so powerfull, Why is Vader who destroyed the Jedis and not Sidius???

Captain REX
Becaue Sidious (or Palpy) knows that Vader could beat him and makes Vader think that is not so. Plus, he helped Vader, so would you kill someone who helped you?

And Palpy (by the time of Ep. VI) is almost 100 years old. That's really old for a human. That's why in EU, he clones himself and goes into the younger clones.

yerssot
you wouldn't give Palpy 70 in TPM

Ushgarak
May I remind people that we do NOT know that Vader destroyed the Jedi, only that he HELPED the Empire hunt them down. Please get your facts straight.

Harmax, who ever said that Anakin was just run of the mill? Of COURSE he is special, but SO is the Emperor. And just because Vader had, at that ONE moment, the iron willpower needed to take those few steps necessary to throw the Emperor down the chute is, again, NOT proof that his force powers were stronger! If Vader's power WAS stronger, he would not have died in the attempt. Can Vader do lightning? No! Did he plan to take over the Galaxy? No! He's just a thug taking orders.

Is he the Master? No!

More importantly, is he the ultimate villain of the piece? No! THAT is the Emperor. And unless he is the most powerful that makes no sense.

I am afraid I do not see your logic, Harmax. SW is a simple tale., When Vader descroibes his Master as the one he MUST obey, when Yoda gives Luke a warning that clearly makes out the Emperor to be more dangerous than Vader... these are VERY clear indicators.

Anyway, if Vader was better why did he not bump off Sidious ages ago, as GL says he would be trying to do? Why did he need Luke on hise side first?

jedi fernando

Ushgarak
This is all very true.

I would not be surprised if we find out some facts about Palpatiners obviously extreme power sometime in the next two films, that might help settle this issue.

master harmax
Hey Ush,

I'll reply to all your points systematically starting with your last : this will be long but PLEASE bear with me :

1. Vader didn't consider destroying the emperor earlier because he would have to have a right hand just as he was right hand to the emperor - the sith are always two - a master and an apprentice, no more no less. And Luke turned out, for Vader, to be the ideal person to be his apprentice / right hand - his own son, genetically strong with the force etc.etc... and in ESB, easier to convert because he had not achieved mastery yet. In fact, UNTIL Luke came on the scene, there WAS no one strong enough with the force,who Vader could consider taking on as a right hand / apprentice.

2. Vader saying I MUST obey my master does not neccessarily amount to an admission of inferiority - that's just one interpretation of that line - the thing is, the emperor provided Vader with the armour, and the special breathing system, and taught him the ways of the sith - and Vader, so to speak him, owed him one. But the whole line is : " You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master ", which is in reply to Luke trying to reconvert his father - I read this to mean : " I will not turn back, the dark side is stronger and more desirable ( something that you don't know about ), and I continue to follow the one who taught me it's ways. " - it does NOT amount to saying " I follow the emperor because he's more powerful than me, and I have no choice. "

3. Similarly, Yoda said : " Luke, beware of the emperor - do not underestimate his powers or suffer your father's fate you will " -
this simply means : " The emperor is a cunning sith lord - do not be overconfident of your capacities, as your father was in his inexperience, or you too will fall to the dark side." - it does NOT mean : " Be more careful of the emperor than Vader - Vader you can still handle, but the emperor is much more powerful."

4. Admittedly the ultimate villain of the piece is the emperor, not Vader : but again, why should THAT make him more powerful : all it means is he's the main baddy of the Star Wars saga - that does NOT automatically qualify him to become the most powerful with the force.

5. Vader can't shoot lightening from his hands : but then the emperor does not wield a lightsabre - and the point is that inspite of being badly beaten AND having his hand destroyed, and plus not exactly in the prime of his life, Vader still had enough to absorb the emperor's lightening bolts and kill him; WITHOUT USING HIS LIGHTSABRE; in his injured state with his hand cut off, the lightening bolts he absorbed were enough to kill him, like the proverbial last straw -again, he did not die on the spot; and if he hadn't chosen to have his helmet removed on the death star, he would have probably lived even longer than what he did, before he died ( hypothetically assuming the death star didn't blow up)
the point is; an uninjured Vader, in his prime, with lightsabre, and having all his awesome strength, would definitely be powerful enough to withstand whatever lightening the emperor dished out, and kill him.

6. It's not about Vader having " iron willpower " for just "one moment"; the reason Vader never attacked the emperor, is because he was on the same team. But the moment he saw his son being tortured and killed before his eyes, his love for his son reawakened the good in him; and then he was no longer on the same team as the man who was torturing and killing his son; at that point, he just destroyed the emperor; it was that simple; of all the jedi, including Yoda, the one jedi the emperor couldn't beat was Vader - the thing is Vader, had the power to destroy the emperor at any time he wanted - he never attempted to do it because he was with the dark side of the force and therefore on the same side as the emperor; and plus there was no one he could take as his apprentice, even if he DID kill the emperor, and the sith HAVE to be two at all times no more no less.
But the moment he DID have a reason to destroy palpatine, he did and there was nothing palpatine could do to stop him. This would have been the case at any time Vader actually chose to attack Palpatine, not just at that moment; the only significance of that particular moment is, that at that exact time, Vader decided he HAD to destroy the man who was about to kill his son. That was the FIRST moment that Vader had any reason to fight and destroy Palpatine.

7. To Jedi Fernando: The highest midiclorean count, and being concieved by the will of force itself are not ordinary facts to be glossed over : it is highly significant, and in TPM " more than even yoda "; and " more than any jedi "; are also highly significant; it's the way that GL is trying to convey that Anakin/Vader is uniquely powerful in a special way with the force that NO one else including Yoda is and that is why of ALL the people, including Yoda, ONLY Vader had the power to kill Palpatine; that negates the idea that Vader killed Palpatine only luckily with the surprise element, just so that an ancient prophecy could be fulfilled.

8. Furthermore, just plain common sense : the chosen one who will be bring balance to the force ( i.e. destroy a certain sith lord, who supreme jedi master yoda couldn't even detect for a decade let alone alone destroy ) is one uniquely more powerful with the force than anyone else, with the highest midiclorean count, concieved by the will of the force itself;
it's that simple;

9. The fact is : with all his power, the emperor couldn't fully eliminate the good in Anakin Skywalker; and furthermore, he did not realize that Vader still had good in him; the point I want to make is philosophical : This is, at the root, a story of the power and force of good vs. the power and force of evil; and the thematic cornerstone of Lucas' story is that good is, as a law of nature, more powerful than evil, just as fire is warm, ice, cold etc.etc. and the "force" of the SW movies, is in balance, only when the light side or the good side is dominant ( you quoted Lucas having said this on another thread, which I totally agree with ), and NOT in balance when the dark side is dominant; this clearly means that the true nature of the force is inherently GOOD, and that the dark side is much like an abberation in it's nature; now Anakin is born and concieved of the will of the force; that means at the core he is INHERENTLY good, and that is why the emperor, with all his awesome dark power couldn't drive it from him fully; and that is why Anakin HAS to be stronger than the emperor, because, born of the will of the force, symbolically in Lucas' story he represents the good side/light side of the force, which is ALWAYS more powerful and the TRUE nature of the force, than the dark side, which is an ABBERATION in the force, that causes imbalance in the force, represented symbolically by the character of the emperor. Naturally the one who brings balance to the force ( i.e. the representative of the light side of the force ) is more powerful than the one who brings imbalance ( i.e. the representative of the dark side of the force ) -
to repeat .... the reason why the emperor couldn't drive the good from Anakin fully, was because Anakin was born of the will of the force, and as such was representative of the true nature of the force, i.e. good and thus was at his core, good; and that is precisely why Anakin was more powerful than Palpatine; because the light side is inherently stronger than the dark side, good stronger than evil / dark side which Palpatine represents.

Not to understand or accept this would be to miss the whole message and central point of the Star Wars saga, I think.

Ushgarak
That last point of yours is nonsense. The Light Side is NOT stronger than the Dark Side. It is a matter of Balance, they are equal. THAT is the fundamental point of the films!!! D'uh! How many toimes do we have to quote GL saying that about Balance? You totally misread the quote I said before. BOTH THE SAME. The sides have to be the SAME.

Similar sloppy thinking infests all your points. Vader isn;t waiting for Luke just so he can have an apprentice. Vader clearly does not think he can destroy the Emperor, othewrwise he would not have told Luke that HE could do it. Again, SW is a simple story, don;t read too much into that line; he meant that Luke COULD kill the Emperor as opposed top Vader himself who could npt. That he was wrong is neither here nor there, because that's the Prophecy operating again.

You say Vader saying that he MUST obey his Master can only be interpretd to mean the Emperor is too pwoerful; that is you over-analyzing. SIMPLIFY! All your points are FAR too complex for Star Warsl This line is a DIRECT reference to Palpatine's superior power.

Talking of simplification... when you have a Master and an Apprentice in a film like this, it is OBVIOUS which one is more powerful! This isn't a political intrigue piece! Take it as read!

Which is the same reason why the ULTIMATE villain IS more powerful than Vader. Introduced in ROTJ to show that there is more powerful than Vader out there. It is shown that the Imperials fear the Emperor even more than Vader. The semi-canon novels make it PERFECTLY clear that the Emperor is more powerful than Vader. This represents official confirmation that proves you wrong. You will need hard evidence to convince me otherwise.

And I have never understood why you use the fact the the script notes have the Emperor humilating Vader not used as evidence that Vader is stronger. The Jerjerrod rivalry ploline was removed for time reasons, nothing else. But those notes are a VERY clear picture of GL's thought aboput the charatcer of the Emperor- a far far FAR more powerful being!

Likewise, Yoda's line, which you quote wrong, is so obviously a warning that the Emperor is more powerful than anything that Luke has faced before that I again say that only mindless worship of Vader would make you think otherwise.

BTW, GL's comments on the nature of the Sith make it clear that Vader WOULD have taken out the Emperor before if he could. The only reason for him not to have done was that he couldn't.

Meanwhile, how do you know that Sidious has no Lightsabre? That seems quite an assumption. And there was nothing cunnng or clever in the way Vader killed the Emperor- he just the him down a shaft. You don't need power for that, just the will to stay alive, and the situation created in which it was possible- the Prophecy strikes again. Why you thnk that the surprise of it all 'negates' the Prophecy is beyond me. But can you please tell me what amazing power Vader exhibited to kill the Emperor? Huh? No, because he DIDN'T. He just picked him up and threw him down. Vader's enormous power was irrelevant to that situation.

As to your final point., it is, of course, true that the Emperor could not eliminate all of Anakin' good; that is rather the heroic basis of the whole saga. But you having misconstrued GL's comments to think that the Light Side is stronger ruins your whooe point.

What was stronger was the father-son bond; the general heroism of the good guys, and the 'antithesis of symbiosis' that is the Sith, to quote GL.

So your accusation of us missing the fundamental point is hysterical in its inaccuracy because you are the one who has totally mis-read it all. The entire set-up for the story is that Palpatine IS more powerful- but his superior power availed him nothing! Same thing that happened to Maul, really.

jedi fernando

yerssot
"HE will come to ME?"
doesn't sound convinced huh?

Darth Ninja
Vader didn't want to kill Sidious because he needed an apprentice. He wanted to wait for Luke to mature before converting him. Sidious may have known more . . . but Vader could've killed him quickly. All he would have to do, is turn on his lightsaber and take one cut at Sidious . . . and WALLA! Darth Vader would be the new Emperor. One other thing . . . Sidious is afraid of Luke because he knew that Luke would bring his downfall.

Ushgarak
COULD bring. And he didn't get that quite right,l but then no-one did except for Qui-Gon.

And it's silly to say that one flash of a sabre would easily kill Sidious. He;d never have won if he was that impotent.

jedi fernando

Phanekim
this is what i've been saying ALL ALONG!!!!

Both sidious and vader seemed to have wanted luke for their own purposes.

Vader wanted luke so he could overthrow sidious and have an apprentice at same time.

SIdious wanted vader to get luke as a replacement (believing vader wouldn't know).

Sidious makes his intention clear in ROTJ when he knew that vader and luke would have to duke it out. tHe survivor would probably fall to the dark side or at least be manipulated.

ANyways, i realize it has been a theory since the start....but i'm not quite sure what is wrong with the theory.

But the initial point is who do we think is stronger...

arguments have been well argued....in fact i used to think sidious was stronger...but i've been swayed to think it could go either way, and its all up to opinion guys.

jedi fernando

master harmax
Ush :

1. The light side IS stronger than the dark side : Luke asks Yoda is ESB, if the dark side is stronger, and Yoda replies that it is not, only quicker, easier and more seductive. Of course, you could theoretically argue that he did not say the light side was stronger either, but the tone of that particular conversation is pretty clear : Luke is asking which is stronger, and Yoda is replying that it is the light side : the dark side is just the easier road.

2. I think I have a valid point in stating that Vader did not kill the emperor, because he needed an apprentice himself; the sith code : 2 no more no less. When he did find a potential apprentice in Luke, he did tell him that Luke had the power to kill the emperor : here, it is you who are interpreting this to mean that Vader found the emperor too powerful for him, but felt that Luke had the power to kill him; but again, this is just your interpretation of that line; Vader could have many other reasons for not wanting to kill the emperor himself; he learnt the ways of the dark side from the emperor, he was given a battle armour by the emperor which kept him alive etc. etc. And for these same reasons, and plus the fact that he had given himself over to the dark side he said to Luke in ROJT : I must obey my master, and follow the dark side which I find to be stronger.

3. I do not think I am uneccessarily complicating things : in fact I think I've pretty much hit the heart of the matter when I say that the fundamental basis of the Star Wars story is the victory and power of good over evil : It's been made pretty clear in the movies that the true nature of the force is the lightside / good side, the dark side is much like an abberation. I feel it is you who are complicating matters by interpreting the " balance to the force " statement to mean that the light side and dark side are equal.
I have never read anywhere, any comments by Lucas to indicate that the light side and the dark side are equally powerful, and if you say that he has, and such an interview is available on the web anywhere, than please point me the link.

4. Palpatine - Vader's relationship is not that of a master to an apprentice - Vader is NOT an apprentice, he is himself a master -
If you want me to take it as I read it, than Palpatine has referred to Vader as " friend " on more than one occassion : something that he never did with Maul, whom he specifically referred to as " apprentice "; Vader still mantains respect for Palpatine by referring to him as " Master ", because he learnt the sith ways from him, but that does not diminish his own stature.
As an example, I may learn piano from a master, and achieve mastery at least equal if not more than the one who taught me; but even so I will still refer to him as my guru, because he is the one who taught me. But that does not mean I have not achieved the same level of power or more.

5. As for the lightsabre, the only weapon we have seen Darth Sidious use upto now is dark force lightening; there are no indications from any source that he is going to use any other weapon in AOTC. I haven't read EU, or other ' extra movie ' star wars literature, and I think that the movies come before the books in clarifying such points of debate, but even if you take the books etc. into account, I'm pretty sure that he hasn't used any other weapons in there either; so until Ep.3 comes out, you can't fault me for assuming that Palpatine uses NO other weapons aside of dark side lightening, and other sundry force tricks. In single combat therefore, I don't see what Palpatine would do to stop Vader from decapitating him, because force lightening and force tricks would NOT be enough against Vader.
That is why I state that Vader refers to Palpatine in terms of "master" and "obey", out of respect / reverence, NOT out of a sense of inferiority or fear.

It IS true that Palpatine achieved his aims, entirely by manipulation, trickery, and other such underhand tricks. Up until ep.3 nobody even knows he is Darth Sidious; this is in reply to your question why nobody destroyed him before, if chopping him down with a lightsabre was all there was to it. I know it is too early to speculate on Ep.3 yet, but I'm pretty much sure that by the time he IS found out, he has a converted Darth Vader in his prime to defend him from and destroy the remaining jedi knights that survive ep.2. Palpatine could never have managed to do what he did without the help of masters like Dooku and Vader; not exactly what we would expect from one who is so omnipotently powerful that he is even greater than the one conceived by the will of the force itself, with the highest midichlorean count of all including Yoda.

6. Vader did not exhibit any special powers to defeat the emperor; exactly; he did not even USE his lightsabre; he had just been badly beaten up, and had his arm chopped off; still he picked up the emperor, absorbed the lightening and dropped him down the chute; it's as simple as that; but his enormous power was not irrelevant to the situation as you say; it was precisely because of his enormous power ( or what was left of it by that time ), that he could kill the emperor so simply. : Vader could have done it at any time he chose; and being more powerful with the force than anyone else, he had the power to do this : it's just he had firstly, no reason to, as he was on the same team, and secondly, he had no one who he could take as an apprentice - 2 no more no less.
How am I complicating things by stating this ?

To jedifernando :

1. I am not assuming that Anakin was concieved by the will of the force and has the highest midichlorean count of all : that's what has been said in the movie. And I don't think this is something unimportant, I think it is a highly significant point : especially the line " More than even Yoda " : because we do know that the supreme jedi master could not defeat Palpatine for whatever the reasons, reasons which will become clear in Ep.3.

And, to make things really simple : Palpatine vs. Vader DID happen, unlike Maul vs. Vader, an imaginary contest open to speculation; score : Vader 1, Palpy : 0; so as you like to say, why are we trying to read complex things into this, that it was lucky, or just a fulfillment of prophecy etc. etc. ? the stronger man won, that's all there is to it.

Anyway, as Phanekim says, you and I could argue this thing artfully on forever - so let's beg to differ and leave it at that.
But I'm pretty sure that it's not some thoughtless fan worship of Vader that leads me to argue this way.
Hopefully AOTC and especially Ep.3 will clear up these arguments one way or the other.

jedi fernando

Ushgarak
Ok, look, I am obviously not going to convince you that Sidious is stronger- though if you read th script notes for ROTJ, I do not think you will be left in any doubt that GL designed the Emperor as a conceptually more powerful being than Vader. However, I do feel bound to correct your inaccuracies.

Here is a telling quote- opne of many that George Lucas has made about good and evil in Star Wars.

"Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this."

Anakin restores the balance between the Force by preventing the Sith from making the Dark Side dominant, see? But it has to be black AND white. Not just white. That's imbalance in the other direction.

GL even tells us that:


"The mystery around theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

The fact that the Light Side could poddinly need balancing shows the importance of having both sides of equal power.

Good and evil must be equally balanced, you see? Nothing is stronger than the other in these symbiotic things George Lucas is describing. It's all part of thre Taoist inspiration for his films.

So Yoda was just dismissing the APPARENT greater strength of the Dark Side, not actually saying the Light Side is stronger.

It's odd, you know, because normally we have to persuade people that it isn't the Dark Side that is stronger!

Oh, Vader IS Palpatine's Apprentice. Otherwise he wouldn't call him Master. That Vader is himself a Master I do not dispute, but so is Dooku, and he is still Sidious' apprentice in AOTC. It's just relative terminology; the junior Sith is always called the apprentice. We have any number of GL quotes that show that.


Also, I think we can be pretty sure that Vader couldn't have just offed the Emperor whenever he likes as that rather detracts from the drama of it all.

And I still don't see how Vader demonstrated anything other than willpower in killing the Emperor.

Oh, just spotted the other thread open about this. I guess we had better continue in there.

haakun
This discussion does not have sense. All we have our own arguments. And the truth is that all those arguments are perfectly valid, we will already see that it happens in episodes two and three... roll eyes (sarcastic) roll eyes (sarcastic) roll eyes (sarcastic)

mah
the truth is that somethings are facts, and some things un-true.

LanceWindu
We all know that Luke is the strongest because he prevaled where everyone else came up short.

Ushgarak
But he couldn't kill the Emperor. Only Anakin could do that.

jedi fernando

mah
when two tries to take out the emperor, and the one fails, whilst the other succeeds, I think it's safe to say that they differ in quality.

jedi fernando

haakun
I believe soon that I have myself lost, jedi fernando... first you were with vader, then with sidios and now with obi1, yoda and anakin(vader). confused confused confused confused

Ushgarak
No, it does not mean that Anakin was necessarily the strongest because he beat Palpatine. That is always a false analogy.

The reason he could beat Palpatine was that he was the CHosen One. Purely from that basis, he might have been more powerful or he might not; it was being the Chosen One that counted.

jedi fernando

master harmax
To Jedi Fernando :

I agree with what you say about Luke being the motivating reason for Vader to attempt to kill the emperor; it was the love for his son which awakened the dormant good deep inside ( love is a positive emotion and all that ), that gave Vader the impetus to attack the emperor, although he was himself badly beaten and wounded. And I agree with you that it is because Vader was impelled by a positive emotion when he attacked the emperor, that he succeeded; had he tried to do it for some other, probably selfish reason, he may not have succeeded because he would have been using the dark side.
I think therefore, that is was Anakin's inherent goodness at his core, which the emperor could not remove, although he did manage to convert Anakin to the dark side, that proved to be his own downfall. ( *) - i've just put an asterisk here because I want to come back to this point later.

To Ush :

I stand corrected about what I said about the " bringing balance " line after having read your Lucas quotes; it IS a fundamental tenet in most eastern religions / philosophies that the universe's existence is based on the principle of duality / opposites; good/evil, light/dark, heat/cold, strong/weak etc. etc.
and the interplay of the opposites; both are neccessary or the universe would cease to exist. So you're quite right about your interpretation of the " bringing balance " line; neither the light side or the dark side being dominant over the other but in " balance ".

But there's a slightly different point that I want to raise here ( again I do not intend to arrogantly state that I am right, it's just my personal, subjective view point ) -
that, QUALITATIVELY speaking, the light side is more POWERFUL/STRONGER than the dark side, that just as opposites / duality are a fundamental natural law in the universe, so also it is a fundamental law, that ultimately, in a clash of light - dark / good -evil, good always prevails over evil - REGARDLESS of whether, on a universal level, the forces are in balance or they are not because either the light side or the dark side is more widespread than the other.
Coming back to the point where I put the ( * ), this is why Vader was ultimately able to triumph over Palpatine; because although he was a sith lord, seduced by the dark side, " twisted and evil, more machine than man ", he was still, at his deepest core, Anakin Skywalker, the good one; and it was Anakin that surfaced over the evil Vader personality, ( because of the emotion of love for his son ), that attacked the emperor; and THAT is why he won, because good prevails over evil, by nature. So Jedi Fernando is quite right about that point - had it not been good attacking evil, but instead Vader i.e. evil attacking evil, for selfish purposes in some different circumstance, he may not have been able to succeed; ( although somehow I still can't see Palpy overcoming a seven foot tall sabre wielding unwounded Vader
with his dark force lightening and force tricks ); maybe you could say that Darth Sidious was the more powerful sith lord, but Anakin Skywalker, jedi knight, had the light side power within him and his exceptional strength with the force because of highest midichlorean count, to overcome the master sith lord Darth Sidious ( highest midiclorean count with the exception of Palpatine - I'll give you that point JediFernando - but I feel that the argument about us not knowing much about Palpatines origins therefore he may have a higher count is rather technical/theoretical - I can't see Palpatine having a higher midichlorean count than Anakin - if you take the spirit of the script, it's obvious that the whole thing of " highest midichlorean count, including Yoda " was part of the script to convey that Anakin has a unique, special strength with the force that NOBODY else has .)

haakun did say it nicely; we all have our valid arguments; some of the points made by Ush do make sense; some others, to me, don't; and vice versa I'm sure. So I guess it will boil down to personal opinion; but I hope that a lot of these questions are clarified by Lucas one way or another, either in interviews, or through the remaining 2 Star Wars movies.

Ushgarak
Well, obviously the ultimate triumph of good is a main theme of the movies, otherwise he wouldn't have made them.

As you know, GL talks about symbiosis all the time. In the final analysis, the bad guys lose not because they lack strength, but because they lack the symbiotic balance that GL believes is vital to all things. As I say, he calls the Sith the 'antithesis of symbiosis'.

In the end, they dug their own grave.

Well, anyway, that seems to settle all that. I see from the poll that most people tip Vader to be top dude, anyhow.

I'm still hoping that, perhaps in episode III, something about all this wil be made clearer.

We are still left with the fact that the script notes and semi-canon sources clearly say Palpatine is stronger, so I'll continue to believe that, as I guess you will all beleive your own thing.

master harmax
You know, I just thought, with our level of debating skills, we could make a damn good pile of money if we joined politics;

but that would mean taking to dark side, huh ? !! big grin

jedi fernando

master harmax
How about vader vs bjork ?

I say bjork ...

Or for that matter any sith lord / jedi knight vs bjork

I still say bjork !!
rolling on floor laughing

haakun
laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud

LanceWindu
Bjork is a psychopath. I once saw a video of her beating up a reporter that was following her and asking questions.

master harmax
Now don't start!
the Bjork thread was just closed down in the other forum; and may I say we didn't exactly distinguish ourselves with our comments on that one ...
wink

yerssot
we DIDN'T? eek!!

master harmax
Nope ! big grin

yerssot
Luckily I didn't said much there

master harmax
same here !

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.