Is the dark side stronger ?

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jedi fernando
We know the force has two sides: the dark side and the otherone, hehe

which one is greater.

we get to hear all the time that the Dark Side is infinitly stronger, is it really?

well the Dark Side lacks of good and powerful stuff like love and other nice and strong things.

Captain REX
The Light Side is stronger, because the people are expierenced.
The Dark Side is stong, but only because of powerful moves.

Phanekim
let me clarify. The reason why the Sith are stronger is because the sith are dark jedi.

Dark Jedi are influenced by fear, greed (everything you consider bad). As a result, they not only seek to destroy the good Jedi but seek to destroy other jedi like themselves.

The good jedi are peacekeepers of the republic. They live in peace with one another.

Thus, there can only be 2 sith lords. Apprentice and master, that is the only loyalty that can exist (sometimes they kill each other too!). If one kills another, the survivor can always get another apprentice, and thus becomes the master.

Also, that is why qui gon was right when he said anakin would bring balance to the force. Anakin in a sense took himself out when taking his master, emperor palpatine out.

anyways, back to the main point, the sith are considered more dangerous due to their two. WHy? cause they are the cream of the crop. Most jedi do not have enough to compete with them.

However, the top jedi are on equal terms with the two sith lords. For example, yoda and mace can prolly match wits with dooku and palp. However, a lower level jedi like Nsync will most likely get killed (hehehehe) or even obi wan. Ob1 cannot hang with the top ones.

Phanekim
Clarification: dark jedi killed other dark jedi. thus there can be only two.

bigsef2
youre taking the comment "always two there are, a master and apprentice" a bit out of context, i beleive. If EU serves me well, there was a time when there were thousands of sith. There was also a long time after that when there were no sith. Light is shed on the matter, if you remember what yoda said to qui-gon when he wanted to take anakin as his padawan learner: "an apprentice you already have, impossible to take another." At the funeral, Yoda was not saying that there could only be two sith. He was merely stating an extension of the master/apprentice relationship. Whether Jedi or Sith, there are always two. By defination, a master has an apprentice. and also by defination, an apprentice has a master. there are always two. Yoda was merely stating that Maul was either a Master or apprentice. If he was the master, he would have an apprentice to follow in his steps. If he was an apprentice, obviously he must have had a master to train him. That's all the comment means.

I would also like to clarify that officially, there is no such thing as a dark jedi. that is an EU term. Officially, there are Jedi and there are Sith. Jedi use the light side of the force. Sith use the dark side. There is no such thing as a "dark jedi," and more than there is such a thing as a "light sith."

Ushgarak
Yes, but the concept that a Fallen, non-Sith Jedi would be called a 'Dark Jedi' is hardly objectionable.

Meanwhile, the two sides of the Force are of EQUAL strength, of course.

I agree that the two Sith would both be elite, though not necessarily better than the bet of the Jedi. It appears that in this storyline that the Sith proved the more clever, though.

BTW, bigsef, Yoda's comment DOES mean that there are only two Sith, full stop. That much has been made clear. But according to the EU there was a time when trhis was not so, which seems fair enough. I would also assume that such a rule was no longer necessary once the Jedi were destroyed as Sidious seemed perfectly happy to have Luke as a third memeber.

bigsef2
Ush, sometimes I think you just like to be disagreeable. While a fallen Jedi COULD be called a dark jedi, by the same token, a fallen sith could be called a light sith. Either way, the point is irrelevant. In the movies so far, we have no dark jedi. We have Jedi, and we have Sith. As you are so fond to point out, if its not in the movies, its not cannon, and only speculation. End of discussion.

Aside from that, the assertation that there can only be two sith is a widely mis-interpreted statement. how could yoda say "ALWAYS two there are, a master and an apprentice" if the Sith had been non-existant for millenia and before they were wiped out, there were lots of them? Yoda's statement would be meaningless. Sith are just Jedi who use the dark side of the force instead of the light. They are evil, but we have no reason to beleive that the same "rules" dont apply to both of them. There can be more than 2 sith. there can be less. Yoda was merely emphasizing the master/apprentice relationship.

Ushgarak
First of all, that is NOT the end of the discussion. Not by a long chalk. A jedi who falls to the Dark Side does not immediately become a Sith. Therefore calling him a 'Dark' Jedi is hardly a crime against canon. It is just a term of convenience.

Secondly, AGAIN, the meaning of the 'only two' statement has already been explained, many times over. And Yoda saying 'always' does not mean it was forever so, that is a very loose interpretation. He says always two there ARE. That's easilyt applicable to a modern-day situation without it having to cover all of history.

The EU sources you quote clearly make this out to be the case.

I am not just trying to be disagreeable- stop being so touchy just because I don't believe the same thing as you. You are, again, arguing from a very weak basis.

If you need proof, here is a GL quote about it:

"The Sith were started by a fallen Jedi Knight. The Sith trained throughout the centuries in the dark side of the force keeping themselves hidden underground. Now, in episode one, they are making themselves known in an attempt to take over the galaxy.

One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

bigsef2
from my perspective, it is you that is arguing from a weak basis. and im not touchy. i just dont respond well to arrogance. When I disagree with another forum member, I try to be as respectful of their opinion/interpretation as possible. unless theyre saying something completely rediculous, such as that they love nsync. that is entirely unacceptable. moving on....

if people want to use the term dark jedi, thats fine. it just must be understood that it is not an official term, and that there are no dark jedi in the movies wed seen. there are only sith. vader and maul are not dark jedi. they are sith. granted its just a term, but it is the official one.

Ushgarak
You must have read my half-complete post.

It's not arrogance, I have the FACTS on my side, and you do not! GL's quote directly contradicts what you say.

And Sith is a term for people in the Sith order, of course. But there is still nothing wrong with someone using the term Dark Jedi for a fallen one who is not one of the two Sith!

Phanekim
> TO bigsef: Kind of taking it out of order. If i am correct i believe after the formation of the jeci council and taking young children with high counts prevent many people from being sith. But also the present order of sith, for their own survival, limit themselves to master and apprentice. THis is done for lesser infighting of course and also to maintain a sense of anonmyity because jedi definately outnumber sith and can destroy them. I think Ush explained it as well.



> TO ush: Actually Sidious was replacing Vader/Anakin with luke in ROTJ. After defeating vader, luke has the potential to be the "next vader". However, Yoda prepares him in ESB with the cave thing where he kills vader-esque thing and he sees himself. Sidious also tempts luke and uses his good will against him, however, luke unlike the first time in ESB didn't fall for it. It showed maturity on his part. THus, he chose not to follow in his father's footsteps and be manipulated by sidious by using their good nature/fear of loss of a loved one against themselves to make them go to the dark side.

LIke maul in TPM, there was just a new apprentice. Also, I sense (IMHO), that Vader himself wanted to use Luke to conquer Sidious in ESB. THus making vader the master and luke. But this is all theoretical. But i think its a pretty standard conclusion that with the present sith order, there can only be 2, master and apprentice.

> TO BOTH: As for the dark jedi. I think you two make points. Dark jedi for my point was not proper for the trilogy at hand however i dont think its a big point. However, i think i still got the general point across. However, from what i've read, dark jedi are jedi that follow the dark side. SO in a sense, sith is a specific order/type of dark jedi. But I'm an not quite sure of this.

As for as the two sith, sith only have master n apprentice. Thats their code for survival. Dark side leads to their destruction...they can only have two for survival.

bigsef2
GLs quote? care to share, oh enlightened one?

bigsef2
btw, based on my understanding, "dark jedi" is a contradiction in terms. and if we use dark jedi, its only right to use "light sith," so from now on, I will refer to Vader as a light sith, because in the end, he returned to the lightside and forsook the sith way ;-)

jedi fernando

bigsef2
no, GL hasnt said anything official, although, certain other people who shall remain nameless, equate their own opinions with either those of GL or god...

Phanekim
well bigsef, thats your opinion. Although i don't talk to anyone about my star wars fanaticism, i do tend to refer to things more like ush. But thats your opinion. But in the essential chronology, jedi that follow the dark side are called dark jedi and the jedi of the jedi council (or the light side) are simply called jedi. Sith seem to be a specific order within the dark jedi. But light sith sounds interesting. Maybe we can just call him a Closet Light Sith smile. He doesn't "come out" till later.

TO Fernando:

most of the terms and stuff are discussed in lucas books. Like one of the ones i have is called the essential chronology. I always look at this stuff and read it in book stores and memorize it. However, one day my girlfriend just bought all these offical George lucas endorsed books. So i was like...cool.

and yes, in all the books i have seen, all refer to the fact that the sith orrder have 2 lords...a master and apprentice for the aforementioned reasons.

As for luke being brought to the emperor, i think the emperor asked him to be brought. i think he ordered vader to bring him. I'm not sure..i havent' seen ROTJ in 3-4 years but i used to watch it a decent amount as a kid.

I think the emperor brings luke b4 him to watch the destruction of his friends....trying to tempt luke into the dark side. Luke almost does as he tries to strike sidious, but vader blocks. luke defeats vader and sidious offers him the option of being killed or becoming his apprentice.

oh well. have a nice day!

Ratcat
INORRECT. There can only be two Sith. To be a Dark Jedi does not mean you are a Sith.

In any case, this is NOT an Episode-II or III topic. Dark Jedi are FIRMLY and EU concept.

I think this topic would be much better based in the EU section.

SilentMike
If you compare it to Christian spirituality it makes more sense. The dark side may seem more powerful but it achieves all this at a cost of oppression, injustice, suffering, and no compassion. It is inherently a twisted parody of the light side of the force. Just as Christianity points out that on the earth evil does prevail but it has it's limits and despite appearances is not more powerful; but the knowledge to understand why this is so is hidden. It is far above our heads and is not known until after death just as the jedi do not fully become part of the force after death.

finti
please leave religion out of this

Ushgarak
bigsef, are you blind or something? gave a clear quote from George Lucas himself that says you are wrong. Here it is AGAIN, thpugh why I have to print it twice I don't know:

"The Sith were started by a fallen Jedi Knight. The Sith trained throughout the centuries in the dark side of the force keeping themselves hidden underground. Now, in episode one, they are making themselves known in an attempt to take over the galaxy.

One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

Happy now? GL HAS said something official. You have had this all wrong. Do me the courtesy of reading my posts properly in future and stop coming across as so damn arrogant. Do not make cheap insults about people 'equating' themselves again.

And for those who are interested, here is a link with large portions of this interview, done for Time Magazine in mid '99:

http://www.next-wave.org/may99/starwars.htm

Meanwhile, Phanekim, I was talkling about ESB, where Palpatine clearly asks Vader to recruit Luke onto their side without any talk of replacement. Only in ROTJ does he reveal he wants Luke to replace Vader, which is fair enough, but the point is that the POSSIBILITY existed of Luke being a third, or Palpy would never have mentioned it to Vader, of course! That would be like saying "I'm going to have you killed and replaced." Unlikely!

Phanekim
jeez ratcat we've already discuss this. i was using it for convenience sakes. REOW. someone is sensitive smile.

if you read the other posts i reclarified it. smile

and to ush. point taken. lets move on. we seem to agree on most issues.

Ushgarak
Oh. I wasn't getting at you or anything. Phanekim. After all, GL himself described how tbe two are always trying to eliminate the other. it was just the possbility of it all, that's all.

Just so long as everyone is clear on there only being two Sith full stop, and that IS the official line.

yerssot
ok, that quote... That's from the Star Wars DVD, I'm not sure where exactly...(I mean, you hear him saying it there, somewhere)

If I may throw in some 2 cents or euros ...(it's EU, ok)

Darth Bane (actually it's Lord Bane, like the other baddies at that time), he got Laa (that's the nickname of the kid) to get as his apprentice...
But (comic book smile ) not every Dark Jedi was fighting the Jedi in the battle, so there were Dark Jedi who were still living... old... but living

Ushgarak
Err, well, maybe. Heck, EU comes up with all sorts of stuff.

And thanks for pointing out that GL says all that on the DVD as well. In which case I am surprised more people didn't know it had been said officially.

bigsef2
Ush, you are the one that is blind. when i asked about a direct quote, i was referring to the "dark jedi" statements. As ratcat said, it is completely EU, which was my point the entire time, if you had paid attention.

also, on the subject of there only being two sith, theres still nothing definitave either way that says there couldnt be more or less. It is still my opinion that yodas statement was meant primarily to reflect the master/apprentice relationship. GL knows that the sith have been hiding for years, the Jedi do not. The jedi think the are extinct. It is my beleif that when Yoda made that statement, he was merely saying that if it was an apprentice, he had to have a master, and if it was a master, he would have an apprentice. one of the recurring themes of the entire saga is the master/apprentice relationship. yoda was making a very vague statement. "always two, there are, no more, no less. a master and an apprentice." yoda was not directly talking about sith, any more than he was talking about jedi. he was talking about the whole thing. EPI is the movie that sets everything up, and the statement has implications to the later master/apprentice conflicts....

Ushgarak
GL has SAID there are only two. That IS definitive! Yopda's statement can hardly mean anything else.

And it was you insisting that there was nothing definitive made it look EXACTLY like you were questioning me over the two Sith thing.

Ok, let's bring this one back on-topic.

bigsef2
this topic is far more interesting and controversial though....

Ushgarak
Feel free to open a new thread on it, then. The on-topic thing is just about reducing confusion.

bigsef2
youre a moderator... couldnt you just change the name of this thread, thus making my subject on topic, and the other persons off topic?

Ushgarak
Err... I COULD... but I don't want to do something so drastic outside my own area, and I'd really want the go-ahead from the starter of the thread.

bigsef2
hahaha, ok, whats this post about anyways?

Ushgarak
IS the dark side stronger than the Light Side- a question presumably inspired by the apparent super-power of the bad guys.

My answers would be:

1. The two sides of the Force are evenly balanced

2. The Sith are always Elite, as there are only two. But only as elite as, say, the Jedi Council Members.

bigsef2
yoda said it wasnt more powerful, only easier. that should be the end of the discussion, atleast as far as the direct answer. unless we learn something new related to the midichlorians, such as there are good ones and bad ones, i dont really think there is a "light side" and "dark side" per say. I think its all one force, and its just how you use it. if you use it for good, its the light side. if you use it for bad, its the dark side. i realize they refer to it as separate entities in the OT, but that doesnt mean its necessarily meant to be taken literally. it all seems like personification to me.

Ushgarak
Well, that is a valid enough interpretation. I'm happy with people looking at it either way.

jedi fernando

bigsef2
light or dark doesnt matter. its all in the midichlorians my friend....

Captain REX
Though you'd probably have to be Christian to understand any of it, Mike's right. The people on the Dark-Side of the Force are all dark. What Yoda said in Ep. I (Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate...leads to Suffering!) follows along the words below in my opinion.



What do you think, Finti? stick out tongue

Phanekim

Ushgarak
Some things to remember:

We have no reason to think tha a Sith Lord is more powerful than a Jedi Master. It may be, though, that Palpatine himself is just exeedingly powerful, like Yoda.

Also, whether the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi or vice-versa, it does not mean that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side. The strenghts of the respective organisations are not evidence of natural states.

Julie
True, who's gonna be able to prove light is stronger than dark or vice versa. Personally I go with the first chooice b/c I'm a hopeless optimist......besides the jedi...lightsideers get cooler colored weapons smile

BTW why do we care?

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