Human Imagination

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h0ck3yh0rr0r
more of a philosphical discussion.
Imagine what exists beyond imagination (paradox).
Imagine what came before everything (including God and previous big bangs).Yes, there are limits IMO
How would life be life without imagination. Right now im trying to imagine life without imagination. Well IMO imagination is a good and a bad ability we have. Good because we expand knowledge and we become more "civilized"...but WRONG i think imagination has also made homo-sapeins lazy...hmmm bionomial nomenclature homo-sapien means same wisdom or primate wisdom (wise). It's also cause of war...ok my head hurts someone just post comments lol smile

Trainspottinger
I think you have a good idea. My girlfriend always gets on me because i like sci-fi movies. She says they "aren't real." But ultimately, what is real. Are "true stories" in movies actually real. No, they aren't. We perceive them as real because they are supposedly true, but what makes them true? Is it because we can see it on the screen? I believe that it's only real because our imagination has told us that it is true. It's our imagination that separates us all as humans, but ultimately, what is imagination and to what extent is it real? How far do we as humans go to make our imagination real and how real is our imagination?

h0ck3yh0rr0r
very well said^

xeous
Train>I just saw Miracle and it is almost entirely accurate. Not only who scored the goals and how they happened but the celebrations and even where and how the puck went in...It was amazing how good of a job Disney did with that movie. The only gripe that I have about it is that the final goal scored in real life bounces out from the wall and they just kinda have it laying there to be picked up and shot...

tptmanno1
But why is that REAL??
(and what does that have to do with imagination)
IMO Imagination is everything. Without imagination the human race would not exist or be insane.
We need Imagination to connect points and even accept things that are "real"

h0ck3yh0rr0r
hmmmm imagine what became before everything. what processed our brain to imagine.
yes without imagination we wouldn't survive...actually we would but we would still be in the primitive stage with apes. but then that goes to evolution...hmmm (paradox) ill post later ima think about this a little

h0ck3yh0rr0r
and one more thing... please go to the News and Quesotions forum and vote if u want a philosphy forum or not.

h0ck3yh0rr0r
Imagination is not a substance or mixture of any sort, so it has no quantity. also has no duration or other such characteristics that would give it a limit. For these reasons it could have no limit.

xeous
What does it have to do with imagination? Without imagination, there would be no sports. Period. Hockey players live because of their imagination, creativity...It's nothing like football, there are very little set plays in hockey and even when there is, there is much room to be imaginative. Without imagination, the USA wouldn't have won that game.

h0ck3yh0rr0r
thats true^ but im always with the Russian team side smile

and not only that but im talking waaaaaay back during the beginning of civilization. before christ before the egyptian pantheon before anything...damn this is a good conversation. cmon more people more comments

h0ck3yh0rr0r

ash007
without imagination i would think none of use will try to achive things.
becuase we need imagination to give us ideas and hope.

So wiithout imagination this world will be one boaring place

Storm
"Throughout human history, stories have been our most powerful cultural tool to communicate and challenge ideas. In a world saturated with advertising and commerce, both children and adults seek refuge, guidance, comfort and wisdom in stories. In our explorations of the frontier of the human mind they are invaluable. Stories are our guides to tomorrow, and are at our side as we remember the past and dream the future."
Robert Gould

Storm
It' d be better to define "imagination" first and then discuss about it though.

h0ck3yh0rr0r
but how can you define imagination if we only know that we have the ability to imagine but we dont know what triggers the brain to imagine so we dont know what imagination is but we know how to use imagination.

smile

rusky
Imagination is what separates us from the AI out there... we can come up with ideas that have no logical support, very important...
Idd...imagination is defined by psychologists as the element that helps us link a real world object (a chair) with the word we use for it and, more importantly, it's meaning and use.

However, there is clearly more to imagination than that, perhaps all that we see around us is just in our imagination.

A us scientist concluded recently that, since we rely fully on our senses to percieve the world, we could easily be imagining the whole thing.

'Imagine' that what we all clearly accept as a little kitten, and SEE and smell and touch and so on, is ( or could be a big tyranosaurus rex). It is all up to u'r imagination, and we all wonder why small children imagine so many weird things... it's because they haven't yet been indoctrinated with that which we, grown-ups take for granted...a rock is a rock and can't be smashed with my bare hand....yet some people can..that's because they believe they can...they imagine it happening...and believe it..
That is a big problem, people today no longer believe in their imagination..

h0ck3yh0rr0r
very well said ^

Peloquin
always liked this one:

If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and heartbeats.

Peloquin
ok here's an idea. (Putting it very simple as I don't have too much time) Time and space...we choose to live in it, yeah. Beyond the boundaries where we allow ourselves to go is a "place" without time and space. Going along with the idea that everything that will exist or has existed exists in that place as always "here and now". Imagination is our access to that place. We open a channel and allow inspiration to enter us. I think this happens because we are always there any way, well a part of us is. Inspiration leads to imagination...inspiration comes from "inspiratos" meaning = with spirit.

h0ck3yh0rr0r
hmmm i kinda disagree with how u said inspiration leads to imagination...i actually think boredom influences imagination. and i can reference this as Fyodor Dostoevsky has said

"Of course boredom may lead you to anything. It is boredom sets one sticking golden pins into people, but all that would not matter."- Dostoevsky

also he said

"Boredom excites imagination."

Peloquin
boredom can be inspiring smile I would say both lead to imagination, I would say most things lead to imagination. I can see the most beautiful girl in the world and be inspired to imagin myself with her, the two of us and our life...blah blah blah. I can also be sitting at home bored out of my mind and dream up a beautiful looking girl. Is not imagination just playing with ideas that have yet to be realised in physical reality? With that are those ideas existing in some form beyond physical reality?

Mmmmm warm fuzzy thoughts smile

Darth Revan
Without imagination, life would be boring. There might not be any wars, but it would be really f***ing bland. We wouldn't have books, movies, art, music, or anything involving creativity. On the other hand, if we didn't have imagination, we wouldn't even think about how boring our lives were.

Storm
Imagination is what makes our sensory experience meaningful. It is what makes perception more than the mere physical stimulation of sense organs. It also produces mental imagery which makes it possible to think outside the confines of our perceptual reality. Imagination makes possible all our thinking about what is, what has been and what might be.

Pingu
Imagination is also what makes us creative and inventive beings. The limit of human creativeness and inventiveness is imagination!

Imagination rocks!!!

silver_tears
Imagination brings you KMC, and the sibject it was created for.........
(that's movies for the thick ones) roll eyes (sarcastic)

Also things like this

http://www.ebslive.com/forums/images/smilies/fairy2.gif
http://www.ebslive.com/forums/images/smilies/fairy2.gif
http://www.ebslive.com/forums/images/smilies/fairy2.gif
http://www.ebslive.com/forums/images/smilies/fairy2.gif
http://www.ebslive.com/forums/images/smilies/fairy2.gif

Syren
Yeah, imagination brought us KMC, and the inspiration behind it. I don't think boredom initiated the imagination that came up with KMC, I think inspiration did.

WindDancer
I always felt that imagination has the power to be creative. In literature, Art, Movies, and music. If our world had no imagination there wouldn't be things like entertainment or inspiration. Somehow humans will always be bond to imagination forever.

Serif
Do you think imagination or our way of thinking is limited by language or in the way we can explain or express it?

Lady von Tramp
I think the answer to the above question is obvious.

Imagination probably has many different levels, few of us have reached the higher ones for example. Language, mentality, even surroundings are all elements that limit imagination, that's why I think inspiration leads onto imagination, incentive will always be needed. Therefore boredom can also be loosely connected.

lil bitchiness
Imagination...the thing that gets ruined by TV stick out tongue

No, but seriously, imagination is what got us so far technology and scientificly wise, however, imagination itself has limits.

Canis_Lupus
The other thing about imagination is that it creates fear and a number of other emotions by playing with your sub consiense.

ragesRemorse
actually the human magination is quite dissapointing. It is impossible to ever have an original idea. Everything we think of is inspired by somthing we've seen,felt or heard somewhere in our lives. All of these experiences mixed with your personality, likes, dislikes, and station in life all combine together to create what we call an original idea.I am sure if we could use more of our minds, we could then venture off in between time and space to experience what an original idea truly is, but if we could do that freely now, this world would be even more dangerous than it is. When you meet people who have no apirations, willpower, or spark to learn they appear many times to have no imagination. I believe many people mix up human will with imagination many times.

Predator 89
Imagination could be viewed as paradox it is two things that contridict one another but still exist. Imagination is both limited and unlimited. For example as ragesremorse posted that all of our suposed original ideas are actualty determined by a set of factors. So there is only so much we can come up with. But its unlimited becasue the more ideas we make the more combinations we can create. Imagination is an offshoot of reality. When we percieve what is real and anlyze it we later begin to experiment with it in our minds, then We see a myraid of posibilities. So in other words imagination is merely a basic process of human phyche. It gives us all things to look up to, dream about and contemplate.

punkyhermy
I don't think imaginative things are'fake' because our imagination only uses teh things we know about.It cannot extend beyond this world and since everything in this world is real so is our imagination.

Darth Revan
Though I agree that everything your mind does or thinks is inspired by something external (outside your mind, not necessarily outside your own body), you could also go Buddhist-style and say that the mind is the creator of all experience... Everything you see, do, hear, whatever, is interpreted by your mind at some point. Therefore, it's possible to turn something very real into something that isn't there at all. Like, you're in a dark room, and you can't see too clearly, and everything around you can seem a lot scarier if you make it that way with your mind. So it's a combination of the two--the world around you influencing your mind, and your mind interpreting the world around you.

silver_tears
Imagination is one of our most important qualities, because it is something no one can take away from us. It fuels so much, technology, art, music, all stem from imagination no?

Without it I don't think humans would be able to exist, imagination can't be controlled or destroyed, it's with you since birth and till you die, and if you believe in it even in the afterlife.

And yes, imagination can lead to bad things like war, but wars are won and enemies are defeated also thanks to imagination I think.

Reborn Again
Imagination is a manifestation of prespective. We all preceive things in different ways. Take in ink blob on a piece of power. One person may see a bird, while another person my see something else entirely. It's said that a child's mind is the most intuitive of all, because they see the world through innocent eyes, everything is new to them. An adult sees everything from a cynical or positive view. So imagination is subjected to the person thinking of it.

Syren
This I agree with. You're saying that an infant probably has more imagination than an adult because as we grow we learn that things happen in certain ways, but as infants everything has endless possiblities, therefore our imagination becomes limited as we grow? If this is correct, then I do agree. Unfortunately, as children, we have the ability to see almost everything positively, but don't really have the means to express ourselves. Where-as, as adults, we are able to put our views across yet seem to have lost the ability to view things with such imagination.......

IMO, babies are blank pieces of paper, it is what we draw upon them as they grow that puts limitations on them.

Victor Von Doom
Has anyone read Ulysses? The character Stephen Dedalus acts like he was the character in a book of his own life. Which of course he is...although as a counterpoint, Leopold Bloom acts unlike a literary character, and more like a real person- which is paradoxically less like a real person would probably act, it's just the textual barrier that causes the problems.

Anyway yeah. What is real.

Syren: I don't think babies are entirely 'blank pieces of paper', because that ignores a priori knowledge and capabilities.

Alpha Centauri
"IMO, babies are blank pieces of paper, it is what we draw upon them as they grow that puts limitations on them"

If you just let a kid grow up it would learn things and imply limitations of it's own.

-AC

Reborn Again
I do not agree entirely that infants are blank pieces of paper because even in the womb they are learning.

WrathfulDwarf
Forget Science Fiction, Fantasy, RPG, Comic books, Movies, Video Games, Myths, Story telling, creative writing and all those things that inspire us and excite us. No imagination at all. Picture a world of pure logic and fact. No imagination or even magic. Just pure rational thought and deductive reasoning.

Would you live in such place?

grey fox
No fiction ...at all ?



















....Hand me the gun.

Regret
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Forget Science Fiction, Fantasy, RPG, Comic books, Movies, Video Games, Myths, Story telling, creative writing and all those things that inspire us and excite us. No imagination at all. Picture a world of pure logic and fact. No imagination or even magic. Just pure rational thought and deductive reasoning.

Would you live in such place? Can such a world advance? Advancement entails the pursuit of a fictional "better state of being", I don't believe that such a world could advance. So, no, I would not live in that world.

Atlantis001
I agree. Advancement needs fiction.

Shakyamunison
It is not logical to have a world without fiction.

ohhellodear
Impossible

Madman_V3N0M
If you were to have a world based purely on logic then the whole world would be morons since imagination is necesarry in the learning process. We wouldn't even be able to walk or talk without imaginative thinking. And logic has it's need of imagination, even in mathematics: "if", "then", "imagine a triangle" etc.
So no.

ADarksideJedi
No it would be horrible we need fiction!jm

Kayne Archeron
the minute i was pulled out of the womb i'd aim myself at the nearest scalpel

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Atlantis001
I agree. Advancement needs fiction.

Advancements need facts...wouldn't you agree?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Advancements need facts...wouldn't you agree?

Both are needed. big grin

Lana
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Advancements need facts...wouldn't you agree?

But the ideas for the advancements come from the imagination stick out tongue

Madman_V3N0M
From what is known of the human brain it seems that the way we think, and the way we percieve the world through our senses are in direct link to owr imagination. For all we know everything we sense and feel may just be imagination.

Atlantis001
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Advancements need facts...wouldn't you agree?

But advancement needs imagination. You know... before Eisntein discovered special relativity, it was fiction.

WrathfulDwarf
I've always held that Eistein made his discoveries by the use of mathematics and not fiction.

BackFire
Does porn count as fiction? If not, I could make due. If yes, I'd kill myself in a heartbeat.

ADarksideJedi
No that is non faction.jm2gunsangel_not

Lana
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I've always held that Eistein made his discoveries by the use of mathematics and not fiction.

But the idea had to come from somewhere.

Even if it's something like changing one number in an equation, it's because of someone wondering what would happen and being curious about the answer.

Atlantis001
I agree with Lana.... the idea has to come from somewhere.... relativity cannot be entirely deduced by pure mathematics... Einstein needed to make some assumptions first.... and those assumptions require creativity... you cannot deduce assumptions.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Lana
But the idea had to come from somewhere.

Even if it's something like changing one number in an equation, it's because of someone wondering what would happen and being curious about the answer.

The answer is in your post. Curiosity drives people to know. Facts lead to more facts and eventually to an answer.

Regret
Advancement in relation to fact and fiction.

I have been considering this, and I think it could be that I made a statement in error. I am a behavior analyst, and we consider insightful problem solving to be the combining of previously learned behaviors, and not an act based on some fictional sudden insertion of knowledge. Advancement is thus merely the combining of previously acquired knowledge to better the current state of affairs. Fiction is not necessary for advancement, but it is necessary for improbable directed and expeditious advancement. Given this, such a world would be decent to live in as expectations would not be above the probable, and thus more easy to meet than in a world where fiction sets expectations higher than they should be.

ohhellodear
Curiosity is not separate from imagination; they fuel each other. Think of a situation where they don't.
For instance: "I wonder if...I could do that too? I could transcend that? They are better than me? I could figure that out?"

We are curious about things we don't understand, things we haven't been exposed to yet. We have ideas of what they are or what they'll be like. We coudn't have that without fiction

The concept of future is fictiononal in nature.

I wonder if you'll be able to further defend yourself...
I wonder if I've got it all wrong.

Darth Macabre
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
The answer is in your post. Curiosity drives people to know. Facts lead to more facts and eventually to an answer.

But curiosity itself is based on fiction...Like DaVinci's "Flying Machine" everyone thought that was fiction at one time, and now we can travel the world in hours in a plane.

Mindship
Considering that most of society is built on fiction, take it away and society collapses until we evolve into beings capable of honest and compassionate existence.

Oh...that's not what you meant?

Fiction, especially science fiction, allows us to "test out" alternate As-Ifs. It gives us blueprints for dreams by which we may improve the quality of life.

Or is that itself a fiction, without which we would lapse into despair?

Darth Zedster
Before everything when the world as we know it didn't exist, the sun had no light and didn't exist either, space was just vast cold plus empty.

There was most likely dark matter , it basically makes up what looks like nothing. In order for the creation of all that we know " nothing matter" may have collided leading to a small explosion that may have started evolution.

Thats as early on into the galaxy as I know.

Mindship
Originally posted by Trainspottinger
I think you have a good idea. My girlfriend always gets on me because i like sci-fi movies. She says they "aren't real." But ultimately, what is real. Are "true stories" in movies actually real. No, they aren't. We perceive them as real because they are supposedly true, but what makes them true? Is it because we can see it on the screen? I believe that it's only real because our imagination has told us that it is true. It's our imagination that separates us all as humans, but ultimately, what is imagination and to what extent is it real? How far do we as humans go to make our imagination real and how real is our imagination?

You've made good points. Here's another...
The point of sci fi is not to "be real" like the way, say, soap operas are (yes, I'm being sarcastic). Scifi is a genre which asks "What if?" It allows us to consider alternatives and possibilities, encourages us to push the envelope of what could become real (as scifi has done in the past with, eg, TV, space travel, internet, ipod; all the things your gf no doubt takes for granted). It is an exercise in imagination.

Obviously, your gf doesn't get enough exercise.

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