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Is society more important than the individual?
Or Is the individual superior to the society?

Determinism does include the desires of the individual, it simply says the desires are caused. So, I can say I desire a system which allows the desires of the individual to be expressed without interference from the desires of society (except where it infringes on the desires of other individuals). The fact that the desires I have are caused by previous events in my life and also events before my life that contributed to my genetic structure doesn't prevent me from speaking of free choice in this sense. Free choice for the individual simply means the ability to peruse individual desires as opposed to having the desires of others forced on...

Comments...

According to Star Trek:

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." -- Captain Picard.

"The good of the many outweighs the good of the few/one". Capt. Kirk.

Not saying I agree. Just good quotes.

good reference you made.^

I think it all has to start with Mutany!

Sometimes I think the whole idea of society just.. doesn't work. I believe that people should work together towards common goals that will benefit everyone equally. The fact is, that is never going to happen. Once in a while, you see an incredible act of teamwork. This, however, is very uncommon, and when it does happen, you can bet that there are people out there who didn't like it. People have differing opinions. That's why I often prefer to be alone with my thoughts instead of battling stuff out with other people.

That's also why I've lost faith in the American system of democracy.

That is unfortunate...For there is no other system out there that can truly compare to America, even in England which most of our democracy is somewhat base on their ideals and principals. Even though it isn't always perfect would you rather it were say...Russia? or even in part if not all in the Middle East? We may yet one day achieve the perfect society where all parties are happy and content but at what price do we pay for such a society? Without the individual a society cannot exist and vice a versa. In order to work towards a common goal the individual has to work within the society where the society then repays that individual to live in peace and harmony with so many other individuals. Society in of itself is not a bad thing whether it's a poor neighbourhood or if it's rich, it's the individual that lives within in that more or less decides how that society becomes whether working with others or alone.

society for me, I dont see how any one person could become more important than society as a whole

..well it's pretty simple fire. As an individual, you'll always cosider yourself and your loved ones more important than a bunch of people you've never met.
Even though you understand that sometimes you have to sacrifice for that greater good, for the good of the others, that is still in part true.

i've heard a very interesting thing some time ago, and i memorised it.
Some studies showed that the human being, as a species, is not meant to be in a community of over 65 individuals.
So how can a society of millions work perfectly?
..it can't.

buggie, you got some nerve posting star trek quotes in a star wars orientated forum

What is "that common thing" that makes a society out of a mass of people? Is it the language, culture, religion, race, ethnicity, social status, way of life, education?
A rioting crowd or a lynching mob fit the definition of common goal but are not what a man (usually) would recognize as a society.

I couldn't help myself. I've shown incredible restraint all this time! It's just that I know a lot more Star Trek than Star Wars. But I like Star Wars - I do!!

Well...imagine that u probably don't live in a comunity of milions of people, but rather in a small comunity comprised of u'r friends and people u see every day (boss, parents &stuff) so they rarely go over 60-100 people anyway....the greater society is comprised of thousands of these mini-societies that every one person can trace around themselves..

neh..that's different. You still interact with a lot of strangers every day.
Besides...the competion for survival 9now that sounds wild ) is greater when in such large numbers, because ...not everyone is needed.
not all have a part in the system....hence unemployment, as an example

muuuuch better

dexx there is a difference between considering someone more special and actualy making someone more special than society

In traditional societies (in which culture is always bonded) the purpose of an individual is to learn, produce, and raise a family. Take a look at the Inuit tribes (Eskimos) as an example of what I'm talking about. They depend on each and every member of their culture to hunt, produce, and survive in their natural habitat. What if one of the members decides to leave his/her duties to purse a desired individualism? What if that member is a key hunter or an excellent craftman? Wouldn't the society of the Inuit be less skillful without that member? Certainly it does. Here in this case the individual is as important as the skill her/his possess.

In certain societies the indivual does not get the independence some of us have. That is because society always depend on the skills that each indivual possess. Can the individual be independent of a society that needs her/his skill? Maybe, in our large cities and towns, but not in small communities or societies like the Inuit. Sometimes personal choices can affect the community or society we come from.

A society helps the individual, because in the end, society benefits from the individual. And the individual contributes to society, because in the end, it helps the individual.

Surely it depends on the individual. Your normal every day Joe is less important than society, but heads of state, leaders etc may be deemed far more important than certain aspects of society.

And that in turn because society depends on them...

^^ That creates what is known as commonwealth. So both the individual and society depend on each other.

So neither society nor the individual are more important, they are equal all for one and one for all.

It comes down to production of the individual too. Some provide more than others and others enjoy more than others. That creates explotation and corruption. Which could lead to a corruption in society.

umm..no..the individual CAN be independent. It hasn't always been in this evolved social system....people were killing to survive just like any other predator.

I for one don't care one bit about society, all that matters to me is myself and the people I immediately care about. I'm something of a hermit/loner and I generally don't like people as a whole, so it's only natural for someone like me to feel this way.

I greatly disagree with you on this one BF but I respect your decision, and can partly understand it

I know my way of feeling isn't going to be the same as most people, and don't get me wrong, I don't wish harm upon anyone, but my first priority is myself and the people I care about.

yea I thought like that for a few years myself.

this is why we need a philosophy forum.

The American government is corrupt. Period. It was a nice idea, but it's starting to crumble. You know what I've been thinking about, people have such a hard time realizing why the great ancient civilizations--the Greeks, Romans, Mayans, etc fell. It was, generally, because they became TOO powerful--they had too much territory, too many citizens to take care of, or they became corrupt. Sound familiar?

Omega---> the US is a form of democracy... It's somewhere in between a true democracy and a republic, I think. Also, you bring an interesting point about the guy who was arrested and killed for what he thought about the stars. Though I would use Socrates as an example--he was killed for trying to make people think.

don't tell me you're a nationalist

I would say yes.... all the major food industry companies'd say no.
For the same reason, some time ago, when Tesla did his research on electricity and radio waves he discovered that he could send electricity through radio waves eliminating the need for wiring..
However, upon finding out, the electrical companies that were behind him, suddenly cut his funding. Therefore, it is clear that people care more about themselves than about anything else. The big-bosses at the electrical companies could have allowed Tesla to complete his research, but they faced bankruptcy, so they just cut his funding, thus denying a great advance to society.

no...that's just competing for money . They were protecting the business..
it's instinctive...

nah dexx, I am a socialist now, before I got envolved with politics on a larger scale I thought like BF.

Omega I think there are very few ppl who generaly care, I think if you care about everything that happens in the world you will become very unhappy. But as you said you dont need to care for these ppl to help them, and when it matters most I am pretty confident (as confident as someone can be about something like this in advance) that I would sacrifice myself for the greater good, but dont ask me to sacrifice someone else I love cause that would be very hard.

Yeah, but one individual couldn't possibly kill a single beast by himself. Especially an animal like a mamoth as an example. It took many individuals to achieve the hunting to be succesful. Sure nowadays all you need is a sniper rifle, and the hunt is over. In earlier days of civilazation man needed a community (in this case a society) to survive.
What is used to be a known as hunting to survive can be translated to a "social contract". Meaning that as a community we try to work with others in order to survive.

society is a disease with no known cure aside from total anhilation. Man cannot work together as a whole outside of a small group. Within a larger framework, competition sets in aside from food, shelter, etc. When too many live within a large group there is the likelyhood of envy, jealousy and the desire to have what the other has. If you set one person above all others, say as a leader then that person has the ability to abuse said power if there are no one there to assure that he doesn't. Because we are by nature a social creature, we subconsciously follow in that order of animals that are led without question and should we question it we are otherwise persecuted to no end if it should prove a bane for those that lead. Given the nature of man vs. society; one cannot function without the other, however too large it then becomes dysfunctional no matter the good intent of a few individuals

hence me saying communitu of 65 (at most).
There are species hunting in packs today also...but that's a sign of mental superiority. nothing wrong with that..

well you'll lead a lonely life on your own that's sure

One id dependant on the other. You can't be an individual without a more common thread holding others together, be it society or your class at school or the friends you keep. So, it's all very ying and yang in that respect.

In my opinion, it makes more sense to want everyone to have a common trait or characteristic, that way you know how not to be.

But, at the same time, if you and all your friends hate being like everyone else, then you're all basically the same and thus not unique. So, I guess that says something about being an outcast. Once you start hating everyone who doesn't like you,(because of the way you dress or talk or think) all you do is give them more fuel for their fire.

I love that commercial for Teen Titans where Raven is standing in a club and some dopey kid walks up to her and says something to the effect of "everyone sucks...you wanna go talk about it"...good stuff. And I don't even like Teen Titans

That is because, for as long as it has existed, society has attempted to create a set of guidelines(which unfortunatley have in time turned to tradition) and 'teach' everyone to obey them.
Therefore, if u do not, u are an outcast, because other people who do obey these 'unwritten rules' percieve u as strange, and people do idd fear that which they do not understand.

neah..i'm engulfed in this cruel society of millions of people, already...

But if u shrug them all off....well....u still need SOMEBODY to....uh...lean on.....sometimes...at least that's how I feel...

well..yeah...doh..i didn't say we'd be better of everybody for himself.

what i'm saying is that living in such large communities can screw up with your head.....that's why shrinks exist, as a job

lol go dexx :d

yeah, but it's only certain people making it cruel...

awh....that's a matter of interpretation

so how do you interpret it then ?

err...good question.
I'll have to delay the answer..it's late