Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who do you think would win I personally think the Justice league would whoop there ass!

I'll say the X-Men. If you match up the core members of each group I think the mutants end up stronger.

Besides, they're so much cooler

It's not even a worthy comparrison. Justice League wins.

Justice League just have too many members that spank half of the X-Men.

Considering Superman or Green Lantern could probably beat down the X-Men on their lonesome... yeah... Justice Leauge vs Avengers is more equal but been there, done that.

Actually, Avengers vs JLA is a gay match-up, JLA would wipe the floor with the puny ass monkeys of the Avengers. On the other hand, Xmen and JLA would be a kick @$$ match-up. I think it'll be a tie.

well Juggernuat joined the X-men in some universe and he could wipe out the weak half of JLA single handedly. the biggest macthes seem to be

Xaiver,Storm,Jean all quite powerfull

Supe's,GL also powerfull, but a little more so

now throw in Juggy

I say X-men, with Xavior and Jean Grey's telepathic abilities they could take control of the JLA's most powerful members. Also Batman knows all the other JLA's weaknesses, which means Xavior or Jean Grey or Rouge could take that info from him and use it against the JLA. Additionally the X-men have enough strong Brawler type fighters to defend Xavior and Jean while they do their telepathic attacks. Iceman alone could incapacitate quite a few of the JLA by instantly freezing their blood in their bodies.

But the JLA have the Martian Manhunter, and he can protect Batman's mind from being probed, as he does in the Terror Incognita storyline.

Disclaimer: Having never read an X-Men comic, I have absolutely no opinion about who would win. I'm only replying to this specific point.

Rogue could take info, and how do you propose she does that? Superman alone could just use his heat vision to burn away her hands, leaving her incapable of taking anyones powers.

Xavier would get shut down by the flash. Who effectively can hit someone like a couple thousand times in a second, if not more. Iceman has no chance of catching him, nor does Quicksilver.

It's an interesting fight, actually. I hadn't thought of a couple of X-Men characters that could be central to them winning. But still, poor comparisson, Justice League would annihilate.

Hahaha... The Votes Are TiEd Up ^.

Iceman doesn't have to catch anyone he can mentally freeze the blood flow in a persons body pertty much instantly. Jean could produce a force feild around herself and Xavior to protect against the Flash, and Superman just isn't as strong as he use to be, if you read his new comics as opposed to those in the 50s 60s 70s ect...

How would they get the shield up in time? And then it falls to another JLA character. Many of which who could bring down the shield.

MM is not on par with Xavier as regards to telepathic ability.



Does not have to use her hands alone to absorb another's abilities...and burn away her hands? Rogue is invulnerable.



Not would, could. How would Flash know that Xavier is the most dangerous X-Man?

And which X-Men are we using? Rachel with the Phoenix Force is more powerful than the entire JLA combined.

Remember that the Phoenix Force multiplies the abilities of its host infinitely. This is the same Rachel that stomped Galactus with the Phoenix Force.

And God...LoL, let me bring in Dark Phoenix? Pretty please?

Depends how many of the x-men are involved.

There are dozens of them if you count all of the minor characters that have lived at the institute over the years. Or do you mean the original team or the main characters. Would you include Jean even though she is dead? Probibly about 100 super powered x-men characters against the JLA would be a walkover for the x-men.

Would you include Magneto or other rivals of the x-men?

And people complain that DC characters are overpowered...

I presume you responded prior to perusing my list in the other thread?

I'm not saying the shield would stand up forever just saying it'd be an obstacle. Also the other X-men would be fighing with the JLA, so it's not like they'd be able to exert all their resources against Xavior and Jean. From what I understand of the Flash he's fast but not any stronger than a normal human (or not by much) I mean he can't phsically lift cars and stuff? There are ways to defeat every character and Flash is no exception saying he would take down Xavior and others, and there is nothing they can do about it cause he's fast doesn't make sense. Fast opponets have been defeated before many times.

While the JLA are atacking the shield do you think Xavior would do nothing? Or the others? If we're going by the major characters who are on the team for a significant period of time they've got the JLA out numbered. While I know it doesn't mean they'll win it certainly helps.

Techincly if it comes to a full roster fight X-Men would win since the amount of mutants who have lived in the mansion seem to number in their early thousands. And besides I think we've forgoten one important thing Xavier's mind is the house of Onslaught since Onslaught was Xaviers hate for humanity fused with Magneto's and since in a full roster fight Mags would be there Xavier could recreate the psycho psychic force to kill thr JLA. And he would because both Mags and Xavier are willing to go to any length to protect what they think is important. The sad thing is Onslaught can't be controlled and would most likely kill everyone.
Oh and a question shouldn't the Flash's speed make him hit harder, I'm fairly sure I heard a formula that states the faster you go the more force you have. If this is true then the Flash could do a lot of damage with one punch.

The First JLA:

Superman
Flash (Barry Allen IN PRIME)
Hal Jordan (GL)
Martian Manhunter
Wonderwoman
Batman

First X-men:

Angel
Cyke
Iceman
Beast
Prof
Jean



JLA owns.

Ryugen u r definatley rite. Wth the speed flash hits (speed of light) it multiplys his strength, maybe even to a strength like supes

Exactly Maverick, you guys keep getting sidetracked naming Villians and what not from the X-Men universe. If we're counting villians aswell, then it brings this fight into a whole new light. For instance, if Amazo were present he'd be morphing through the X-Mens powers like crazy.

Thank you Rasta, Thank You

The Justice League Of America would defeat the X-Men!!! It would actually depend on when they battled the X-Men. If it was moden day, they would have a hard time, as there is a huge number of X-Men. But, they'd have to take into acount Superman. He's the strongest person on the planet, and has more power than Colossus, is faster that Quicksilver and can fly more swiftly than Storm.

all the x-men need is the scarlet witch she could take on the jla all by herself especially if she is in her pissed off mode like in The x-men evolution episode hex-factor

No. I think you're wrong in that statement, I'm not doubting her power but there is absolutely no way she can take on the whole JLA.

Again, which X-Men? Is Shaman (Nate Grey) part of the X-Men lineup? Rachel with the Phoenix Force? Either you all know little about the true power of SOME of the X-Men members (Iceman at true potential, for example) or simply overestimate the powers of the combined JLA.

Again, Dark Phoenix defeats them all by herself.

Re: Flash and punches, well...one's mass increases exponentially towards infinity as one approaches the speed of light, so...

JLA

Yes your right. But Superman has stronger guys to worry about in the Xmen. Such as: Juggernaut, Magneto, Sabretooth, etc. And the JLA are ridiculously out numbered. Although, Batman might be able to figure out their weaknesses. Or, reason with Proffessor Xavier to avoid the fight between the JLA and the XMEN.

I know the more speed something has the more force it has as well, but that same amount of force would be put back onto the Flashe's fist. Since he as no super strength or armored skin he'd break his hand (and probably the rest of his arm) hitting someone near the speed of light.

Here we go again,

Man. Your a ****ing retard. Since when was Magneto part of the X-Men? He's from the X-Men Universe, but not part of the X-Men.

Seriously, if we're going to add the villians aswell then other things need to be said. And Never, mind enlightening me as to why Dark Phoenix is so powerful? What's she/he acheived?

Correction Rasta Magneto was part of the X-Men for a short time. See in one of the issues Professor X was critically injured and he asked Magneto to join and lead the X-Men, which he did. Therefore including Mags is perfectly accectable. Sorry mate

Sabretooth????

And you've obviously shown your intelligence with your vast vocabulary there.

Hmm! Not sure about that he lived there but I don't know if he joined.
Creed lived there after Logan stabbed him through the brain and stopped his murderous bloodlust. Unfortunetly he healed and turned back.

****ing is part of the dictionary, as is retard. I don't care what you associate the word with, I'll use it as I please.

So technically he's been part of the X-Men, but is not. Gotcha.

So again, only X-Men characters please. It makes absolutely no sense to add someone because they either made a brief appearence, or are part of the X-Men universe.

So who is the most powerful X-men character?

Whoever it is I'll show a JLA member who can beat him/her

Forgot Aquaman. And Jean is Dead in comics right now.

Dark Phoenix or Rachel Summers with the Phoenix Force would be considered the most powerful, I do believe.

And...NO single JLA member could defeat either.

Why is Dark Phoenix so powerful? The Phoenix Force multiplies its host's abilities infinitely. Dark Phoenix consumed **suns** to sate her appetite. Xavier engaged her in a telepathic battle of wills. She smirked. Can incinerate an entire world with a shrug. Galactus sent a herald (Terrax) to battle Dark Phoenix. She put her hand on his head and transformed him back into a human, snuffing out all of his powers. Hell, someone said it better in a Rachel vs. the entire JLA thread:

"Experience and toughness, what are you talking about, she has been fighting for years, was raised in an environment that makes a warzone look like a petting zoo, has fought many cosmic entities ranging from the Beyonder to Galactus. She outclasses everyone (Supes included) in experience. Not a single one of them have been the embodiment of life incarnate or torn apart solar systems (her battle w/ the anti phoenix), traversed the timestream at will, started entire religions, led freedom rebellions, comes from a different universe... There is not a person alive w/ more experience than rachel. She has thousands of years of experience. Also if she could kill the beyonder, take down Galactus or what have you then she can take the JLA by herself. >>>The Phoenix power has been described as second only to the creator itself<<< whereas Spectre can be taken out by Michael. Again you do the math."

JLA who?

Dark Phoenix or Rachel. Pick your poison JLA, and still get owned.

Eidolon, you are incorrect regarding Flash. If you have the issue (one of many examples), read JLA #2 (Grant Morrison's run) where The Flash battles a martian with his very same powers. He does not hurt his fist or himself - the Speed Force protects him.

Is she a current character?

Current lineup of the New X-Men:

Cyclops
Phoenix <<----------
Wolverine
Beast
White Queen
Professor X

Sounds like a closed case to me!

Wow. Impressive, I didn't realise this Phoenix thing was so powerful. I always thought that Phoenix was Jean Grey though, who is Rachel? Why did this thing, Phoenix become Jean Grey/Rachel?

Anyway. I guess this debates over then, excluding Phoenix is a much better matchup, but not doing so, X-Men win hands down.

The Phoenix Force, remember, is an entity. Also "chose" Rachel as a host.

Rachel was a hunter from the..."Days of Future Past" storyline, I think? Woo, this goes back to X-Men 180ish or so? Do not quote me on that, will dig out the issue and clear it up later this evening.

Why did Phoenix become Jean Grey...I recall it taking over her body when she tried to land an aircraft. Why...? Good question

Franklin Richards is the most powerful mutant alive. After the Worlds heroes died fighting Onslaught, Franklin created an entirely new Earth on the other side of the Sun, with about 5 billion people on it subconciously. Even the Celestials were concered about him. But I don't think he was a X-Man, he traveled along with Arty and Leech who were living in the mansion but I don't he joined due to the fact we was about 5 or 6 years old.

PHOENIX IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

READ X-MEN 150!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I think If MAGNETO can kill Phoenix (New X-men 150), Superman Pre-Crisis could Certanily kill her...

Dark Phoenix was NEVER part of the X-men, she was an enemy....

Phoenix is just a cop-out, its a good thing she's been WEAKENED.



Do you think Jean would really let her self go, I mean, she wouldn't even do that against Onslaught.

Ion,Paralllax,Spectre,Pre Crisis Prime Superman, Barry Allen, Wally West, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter (who has everything Supes has with telepathy almost as good as Prof. X) Batman. All those heroes, Parallax (Hal Jordan) Ion (Kyle) Spectre (Hal) together could quite possibly take the X-men by themselves, as they all have power to take out most of the universe.

Spectre is the Lords wrath of Vengeance, its almost IMPOSSIBLE for him to lose a fight!

Parallax is the combined might of the One Latern, all the other Lanterns, and the Oa guardians...

Ion is the same as ^

Primed Superman (pre crisis) shook galaxies, even was regarded as COSMIC.

Wally West outran death to the end of time where DEATH HAS NO MEANING!

In kindom come Wally was so fast he couldn't stay in 1 dimension

When did Phoenix take down Galactus, that is pure bull crap. Phoenix isn't even that high of a Cosmic even, hell Captain Marvel is higher (Genis)!

Spectre,Ion,Parallax,Primed Supes, Wally West.........

X-men pick your poison.

I know Flash doesn't hurt him self when he punches or hits people at super speed, I just want to know why, cause if there is no super power explantion I think it just plain stupid (same goes for other super fast characters) I've never heard of him having a protective shield or anything, and he isn't super strong.

Barry Allen:
1. When reduced to his component atoms - his control via his powers to control EVERY ATOM in his body allowed him to reintergrate in time to save the day.Thats one of the cool things about the Flash, he has the potential to be one of the most dangerous beings out there, because of the amazing amount of ability's he has. I mean, just with a simple thing like a steel pipe, he could throw it at you near light speed or faster. I dont care who you are, your not going to evade that or come away unhurt from it. Or he could beat you hundreds of times a second with it. Even just with his fists, he could punch you hundreds of times a second, hell, probably thousands of times. I remember an old Flash comic (Barry Allen) where he punched his evil counterpart so hard he ended up like a thousand something years into the future.


2. When on an alien world with his only way off a transporter beam which had sweeped past his point of departure moments before he arrived, He quickly scooped up a handful of sand and tossed it into the sky, then ran up the falling grains of sand to reach the beam before it winked out.

Wally West:
1. When in a movie theater he felt a tickle at the back of his neck and automatically went into super-speed mode and turned to see what it was. A mass murderer had stepped into the back odf the theater and let loose with a hail of bullets on the audiance. Wally got up and walked through the entire theater at superspeed and plucked every bullet out of the air until he reached the gunman and took him out.

Powers:

Speed Force Aura: The Flash's body is surrounded by what he calls his "speed force aura". This aura protects him and anyone who is running with him or carried by him, from the effects of using his speed. This includes friction and airborne particulate matter. It may also protect him from injury from high speed impacts such as punches he delivers and receives from his opponents. He does seem to possess some level of superhuman resistance to injury but this does not extend far past normal physical interactions, as received from normal combat.

Molecular Control: The Flash's powers allow him to perform a number of speed-related feats. The Flash has always possessed the ability to control his speed and angular momentum at the MOLECULAR level, and control his molecular interactions to allow his body to pass through any substance. There have been only a few superdense materials that the Flash has not been able to penetrate with this power. Certain forcefields also seem to negate this power. His power allow him to run along the surface of bodies of water and up the sides of buildings.

Increased Perceptions: The Flash possesses the ability to alter his perceptions so that falling objects can appear to be standing still and can be caught and moved back to their normal position. He can do this so quickly as to have it happen invisibly to the normal human eye. The Flash's reaction time is so increased as to perform feats of speed such as removing the momentum from bullets and fast moving objects thrown at him or at others.

Supercharged Brain Activity: The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip. Wally can also read as superspeed, but rarely takes advantage of his ability to learn at increased speeds, although, Jay Garrick has done so and has become a jack of all trades in several disciplines and languages.

Super Speed Running: It appears that the Flash may run at any speed that he thinks is possible, but there may be physical limits to his speed. Theorectically, speeds greater than Mach 10, are dangerous to the people and to the environment. This speed would still be the equivalent to approximately 128 miles per second; allowing him to cross the United States in about 23 seconds, or circle the world in about 3 minutes. The Flash rarely achieves such speed in populated areas due to the effects of sonic disruptions and air displacements. His cruising speeds are probably around 90-150 miles per hour (1.5 - 2.5 miles per second). This is fast enough to move through most cities and around people without causing too much disruption to the population and slow enough for him to register everything he sees clearly. If he choses, Wally can approach the speed of light, and doing so, enters the Speed Force dimension. If he chooses to continue to run at light speed, he can use the Speed Force dimension for a form of haphazard Time Travel.

Sharing the Force: Since his interaction with the Speed Force, he may also lend his speed and angular momentum to another object or person. This may allow others to run alongside with the Flash. He may still allow his molecular structure to pass through object but now after he passes through an object, the object is now supercharged with a chaotic energy, and explodes seconds after his passing through it. His range of powers seems to have been increased significantly and he is now the fastest Flash to have ever lived. If he shares the Speed Force with another meta with superspeed capabilities such as Superman, that metahuman can now exceed the speed of light but does not become aware of the Speed Dimension.

Speed Feats: The Flash can also perform a variety of superspeed feats such as:
He can strike a single opponent hundreds of times in a second or multiple opponents two or three times in a second.

He can disarm, or jam any number of opponents weapons before they are even aware of his movement.

Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities.

Pluck speeding projectiles from the air.

The creation of wind based vortecies that can act as barriers to movement, funnels for toxic gasses, or vacuum chambers.

He can spin his arms to create directed funnels of hurricane speed air that can knock down barriers or reduce the speed of a falling object. Now with his control of inertia, he can probably reduce the speed of a falling object directly by applying the speed force in reverse, to leech momemtum from the object.

He can run across bodies of water, up the sides of buildings, and by spinning like a helicopter, he can even perform a limited kind of flight. Since his power is a quantum/molecular phenomenon, it is theoretically possible for the Flash to be able to fly just as other metas do, (and there have been other flying speedsters in the past, such as the deceased Johnny Quick,) because he can control his absolute molecular energy and direction and force it in the direction he wished to move without running.
He can also impart molecular energy to a target to increase molecular movement, as he did against the water being called Flow, boiling him into steam for a short time.

Oh, here's a recent feat that reminded me of: the time he inadvertantly brought down a building by speeding up too fast and creating a sonic boom.

One time the bridge that seperates Keystone city and Central city was collapsing...
Wally ran to the library, read all of the books on construction and bridge building, ran out and got all the materials and actually made a LARGER and NICER bridge while the other was collapsing... all in under a minute or two.

He has a kinetic sheild and I think he can use that when theres a huge blast or radiation to protect him.

In the latest issue of JLA, Flash evacuated an entire city within seconds...or less than a second... before an atomic bomb struck the city.


Why argue with me.......

*sigh* Some day people will learn...

For your information, Phoenix is not dead. Read New X-Men #152? Please? Last page when Beast references her as his "ultimate soldier, my destroyer of worlds." You know, when she is laying in his arms after he STOLE the Phoenix Egg?



LoL - considering you have no clue about Phoenix being alive, should I asssume you have a clue about the history of the X-Men in general?



Phoenix is Jean Grey's "other" name. The Phoenix Force is a seperate entity.



Yep.



The Phoenix Force multiplies its host's abilities infinintely. Infinitely. You know...infinitely? And since when is Ion, Parallax, Spectre, Superman Prime, and Barry Allen part of the current JLA? I did not think so either.



Did you read X-Men 150? He hit her with a planetary level stroke, then flipped the north and south poles. He did not kill her. Christ.



Big deal.



Pure bull crap? AGAIN, considering you do not know Phoenix is ALIVE, why does it not surprise me that you have zero clue about the battle? Excalibur #61 by Alan Davis. Would you like to see another's review of the comic book?

"One Excalibur comic that sticks out in my mind is issue 61. This issue housed a battle between Phoenix and Galactus! >>>>I think this is probably one of the must spectacular battles ever seen in comics. I think the art is some of Alan Davis' best. The sight of this little (relatively speaking) human wasting the Devourer Of Worlds is incredible. It is certainly not common to see Galactus fall broken to the ground. However, the thing that impressed me the most about this encounter is not the battle itself, rather how it ended. It ended with the truth about Phoenix's power; it was profound.<<<< I think this is a good example of Alan Davis' greatness when it comes to telling a story. This encounter was violent; however, was not violent for the stake of being violent. Davis was making a strong point, and did it extremely well."

Would you like to say "owned" now or later?

LoL @ "why argue with me." Phoenix simply mind wipes Barry Allen and Wally West at the same time, lobotomizing both with icepicks. Since when was either immune to telepathic attacks? And, since you did not know, Phoenix is capable of FULL molecular manipulation.

Do you read comics?

........holy crap

well a little off topic, but i asume Flash was much faster than Quicksilver, actually a hell of a lot faster, i hope im wrong becuase if Quicksilver can only run about 170, what's the point? cant Hulk ran like 300mph after he get's warmed up?

again i hope im wrong

Well. I never realised that Flash was such a complex character, some of those traits he possesses are really sweet. Interesting stuff too Maverick, thanks for posting.

As for Superman Prime, what the hell are you doing including him in the fight. That's like in the 853rd Century, it holds no reference to this battle.

They're talking about Rachel Summers, etc. So I thought its only fair that we get our " Alternate Cosmic" too....

Flash= WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY faster....................

It says 150 YEARS LATER. And...Superman Prime is what? She did not die in #150. She was clutching her chest and crying when Beast said "Wolverine just went feral!" Have the book open right in front of me. Scott yells, saying "Jean! No! Jean!!" You are ASSUMING she died.



Of what relevance is this? Shutting down Xavier's School disbands the X-Men? No, the school is for X-Men in training. Emma, Scott, Beast, Phoenix are X-Men. And yes, I am using the New X-Men (actually just using Phoenix as she wipes out the entire JLA by herself without breaking a sweat).



What is Superman's defense against telepathy? And...again, since when are Ion and Parallax part of the current JLA? They are not, so why are they even being mentioned in this JLA vs. X-Men thread?



See above comment. And regarding Galactus...*shrug* I daresay Alan Davis knows a tad more about comic book characters than you do, and does it matter what you think considering she already owned Galactus?

Excalibur #61. Feel free to go to any comic book shop and look for yourself.

Rachel is no "alternate cosmic." Superman Prime does not even EXIST in regular DC Comic continuity - Rachel does (in Marvel). Faulty comparison.

By the way, I am using Jean Grey - who was the original Dark Phoenix, you know. The same Dark Phoenix who Galactus ALSO looked at and said "shit, I better send Terrax?" Until Dark Phoenix owned Terrax? Heh

Whatever, I give up....

Superman Prime is in DC continuity, it's just a possible path that his life may lead. It's just a glance of things to come for Superman. However, this doesn't really make any difference. Neither Rachel or Superman Prime should be in this battle, since Rachel was from the future anyway, one where Jean and Scott had her I'm lead to believe. A different timeline.

It's kind of like the Superman Vs Hulk thread, both teams could beat each other. It just depends on the way the battle is fought. I.e Flash is informed by Batman through 'preperation' to take out Jean, and Xavier before harm can come to anyone through telepathic means.

Many possible outcomes, it's not really that clear-cut. With both sides having numorous ways in which they could be defeated. Still, I've learned a bit from the thread, so no harm done. At first I thought the comparison was a joke, which is obviously not the case.

nicely put!

He is not a part of current DC continuity.



Rachel is a part of current Marvel continuity. Superman Prime is not a part of current DC continuity. Therein is the difference. Bishop is from the future. Shard? Cable? Many more, and they are all part of current Marvel continuity.



Give JLA prep time and they lose 10/10. Rachel defeats the entire JLA by herself. There is absolutely nothing that Wonder Woman, Flash, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, or Batman can do. Individually they are not in Rachel's league; as a team they are not in Rachel's league...and that's just Rachel.

She is way more experienced than their most experienced warrior (J'onnz); more powerful than their most powerful member (Superman); an infinitely more powerful telepath than their most powerful psi (J'onnz); can quite easily neutralize Flash, Green Lanther, and Batman.

Certainly welcome anyone to attempt to create a scenario in which the JLA could defeat simple old Rachel who never battled Galactus.

Is Rachel an X-man in Here Comes Tomorrow?

Never heard of it. Is there a point...? She's an X-Man, period.

Its the current arc's name, cause you said you were using the current X-men, and the Current arc is the alternate future arc called Here comes Tomorrow.

Maybe so, but she is just one of many possible X-Men that would be in the team. If Phoenix was not in this matchup, then X-Men would be far from clear winners. It's not a matter of fact either, since none of this has happened.

Well I'm sold, Phoenix owns everybody

Is Phoenix Invulenerable?

But...she is, right?



One of the most widely abused terms. Invulnerable hardly means unbeatable. Superman, Rogue, Juggernaut - all invulnerable, and all quite beatable. "Invulnerable" references physical damage only via force - what about telepathy? What if Blink "blinked" them out of existence? What if Nightcrawler ported one of their appendages elsewhere?

Phoenix is part of the curren X-Men lineup (Jean Grey), not Rachel. Jean Grey currently hosts the Phoenix Force as pointed out in X-Men 150.

There is no "New X-men team" since they are in a arc called Here Comes Tomorrow, with alternate X-men...

And is Phoenix invulnerable, you didn't answer it.....

We don't know. You're the one who keeps asking which line-up people are tlking about. So far, there doesn't seem to be a consensus.

Getting a little tired of correcting you

Perhaps a bit of research prior to responding will preclude an erroneous post in the near future?

Read #152 yet? When E.V.A. is speaking with Tom? The part where E.V.A. says "The Three-In-One has spoken, and your presence in >>>>our X-Men unit <<<< would be most valued..."

Arrows are mine for emphasis.

No, Phoenix is not invulnerable. What does this have to do with anything...? Phoenix still completely and unequivocally owns the JLA. Without the help of the X-Men.



My query was rhetorical, and I stated which line-up I was using long ago (New X-Men). Really does not matter which JLA line-up anyone uses

E.V.A is talking about who...

She isn't invulnerable huh, so its not out of the question if Flash or Superman (for more stregnth) hurled a pipe at her head at light speed, she would die? Right?

Does not matter whom. You said, quote: "There is no New X-men team." You are incorrect. Beak is part of the current X-Men team. So is E.V.A. Cassandra Nova. Tom + his Sentinel. Three-In-One. Do you really read X-Men...? If so, why do you not know this?

Erm...kind of difficult to surprise Rachel considerig she possesses Xavier's telepathic abilities to the infinite power, eh? You know...the ability to read every single member of the JLA's mind and know what they are planning to do before they do it - and act accordingly?

Superman + Flash go from zero to owned...at the speed of light.

Look do the right thing and make this a full roster fight. Everyone who ever joined the JLA no mattery how shortly vs everyone who ever joined the X-Men, same rules apply. This way the fight may actually become fair since there just might be some one in one of the Justice leagues who could go toe to toe with phoenix

I just wanna know one of the Phoenix's a X-man in here comes tomorrow....

Fine a full roster, with reseveres etc. fine...

Pheonix is not an x-man in "here comes tommorrow". She is one of beast's followers, who are fighting against the x-men. She is, however, trying to regain her memory, and when she does, she will probably turn on beast and become one of the good guys again.

However, "here comes tommorrow" is set in an alternate future, so jean will still probably be dead when "here comes tommorrow" ends, and the new x-men series returns to the present day timeline.

I know, in all the recent socalitions after HCT Jean is Dead. Hence Phoenix doesn't help the X-men, and therefore the JLA wins.

Actually, I don't read New or Uncanny or X-treme, I don't like the styles IMO. So all recent knowledge of mine is based on reviews and solitcts.

If Flash hurled a steel pipe at her head at the speed or light or past, you honestly believe Phoenix could block or dodge it?

That's not the point, and you know it. It's not about the JLA line-up, it's about the X-Men one, and if Phoenix is not there. Granted you're saying she is, but what I was refering to was if she wasn't.



Everything. The fact remains that Superman is Invulnerable, but his Invulnerability can be worn down after wearing down his Solar reserves. E.g Doomsday battle, but before this point he cannot be hurt.

Phoenix, on the other hand isn't. This means that she could be hurt.



Indeed. But not at the speed of light. I'm not saying that Superman or Flash would kill her this way, but it is a possibility.



Hardly fair. The number previous and existing X-Men is far far more than the JLA.

According to which issue? Last I have is #152 and she most certainly was not one of Beast's followers. Regardless of all of this hair splitting, Phoenix IS an X-Man, has BEEN an X-Man, and will continue to BE an X-Man.



The lineup that I am using includes Phoenix, so...?



Matters not which X-Man lineup you are using considering the one I am using includes Phoenix. What is the point of this rather childish t!t for tat? Are someone's feelings actually hurt that Phoenix (Jean Grey AND Rachel) would own the JLA by themselves? The JLA CLASSIC lineup is not weak, it just so happens that Phoenix is damn powerful, and she happens to be an X-Man.



WHAT!? LoL, Superman is NOT invulnerable in his current incarnation. Hello, kryptonite? Hello, magic? Hello anyone with sufficient power? Or shall we say "Superman is invulnerable but...? Kind of diminishes the term "invulnerable," does it not?

Doomsday battle? Cannot be hurt? Er, was he not bleeding during this battle? His solar reserves were not even remotely CLOSE to being depleted. Wowzers, did anyone here read "Kingdom Come?" Recall the part where Shazam said...well, "Shazam?" Superman was on his knees, smoking. "Shazam!" Superman was bleeding from his ears. "Shazam!" Superman was bleeding from his nose. So much for that quite flawed posit that "he cannot be hurt."

Captain Marvel also knocked Superman the hell out in Grant Morrison's run on JLA. Knocked him out cold. Superman "cannot be hurt?" Who told you that

Phoenix's not being invulnerable has NOTHING to do with the matter at hand. Is THANOS invulnerable? Someone please tell me Flash and Superman would have a snowball's chance in hell against him? Is Loki invulnerable? Is Galactus invulnerable? Is Dr. Strange invulnerable? Is Mephisto invulnerable? No no no no no. "Invulnerable" is quite the misnomer as it is used in comics.

Rogue is "invulnerable," Magneto is not. Care to guess who would hand the other her ass in a battle? Invulnerability has zero bearing on the outcome of a battle between Phoenix and the JLA.



It's not a possibility. She's a telepath. Her telepathy has been magnified infinitely per the Phoenix Force.



Prove it - and you did say, quote, "far far more." Willing to bet you will be quite surprised.

Any lead pipe moving at the speed of light would vaporize almost instanly due to friction, which would happen as soon as the object left the Flash's "magical speed-force thing."

Also how could the Flash run up a bunch of sand particles thrown up into the air? I don't care how fast you can move you can't run up a bunch of falling sand particles. The Flash has way more mass which means the sand particles would just be pushed down faster and out of the way giving the Flash no actual lift up. (I know it happened in the comic, but thats just plain stupid)

No object with mass can move at the speed of light anyway considering the law which states "an object's mass increases exponentially towards infinity as it approaches the speed of light."

Note the term "approaches" - used because, again, no object with mass can travel at the speed of light.

This includes the lead pipe, by the way.

yeah but DCcomics science is different. In a recent JLA comic I read, the flash was taking on a speedster with superman class strength, Flash mentioned that stuff about infinite mass approaching light speed and punched him across the planet and said'I think he felt that'.

So flash used his infinite mass in levering his punch

It's got nothing to do with that. I stated eariler than it was possible for the JLA Vs X-Men match-up to go many ways. One of them I was refering to was if Phoenix was not present.



Negative. Kryptonite strips him of his powers, I.e Invulnerability, and magic is a form of attack he is not Invulnerable too. This does not diminish the fact that he Invulnerable to everything else. You can be Invulnerable to fire, yet not ice. It does not mean you can't die.



I clearly stated why anyone with sufficient power can get past his Invulnerability. Through wearing down his solar reserves, he no longer possesses this trait.



Since when does being knocked out mean you're hurt?



Shazam? Is that not the guy with the magic. Doomsday battle? Is there fact stating they were not depleted, or close to being depleted?



Does he need to be? Supreme durability mean he can take it. If Phoenix possesses this trait also, then why didn't you just say. I'm not trying to dispute any facts here, but I presumed being a human/mutant she wouldn't be far more resistant to attack than normal.



Indeed. But not in this case.



Never said they were.



Different circumstances between Magneto and Rogue. And since when did I say because someone was Invulnerable they would win?

I clearly stated that Superman can lose his Invulnerability.



So you're saying she can read minds at the speed of light? Yes?



http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/8681/jla.html

Current, Reserve, Former, and Honorary. Total= 48

X-Men;

Yet to find a list that's accurate. If you know of a place with something like that setup, post away. I've seen a few sites with lists, but each had other members included which the other had not.

However, my statement of far far more is definitely wrong. I had absolutely no idea the JLA had so many members. I'd be willing to bet on far more though.



Uh-huh. Mind providing scientific fact to backup your claim? I find it pretty obvious this is the case, but weirder things have happened. Especially since this is the speed of light we're talking about.



Well it's the comics. Not everything is proven with scientific fact, you theorize why you think it's happened, but it's doubtful it's correct.

It's like the Hulk. Since when did people turn green, with super-strength because of an odd genetic DNA makeup, and exposure to gamma radiation.

LoL, this is going nowhere. With Phoenix in the lineup, JLA loses. That is my only point.

Superman is not invulnerable to everything else. Jesus God. Is Superman invulnerable to telepathic attacks, for example? The power cosmic? Concussive blasts? As I stated, invulnerability, when used in reference to comic book characters, does NOT mean that a character is impervious to ALL physical attacks. Can Superman TODAY survive a direct hit from nuke? NO, fully powered or not.

I also stated that ROGUE is invulnerable. Binary knocked her ass into orbit with ONE punch, and she (Rogue) was about to get her ass handed to her until the other X-Men intervened. Invulnerability, if nothing else, gives one an IDEA of how much physical punishment a certain character can absorb. Nothing more.

Dark Phoenix, for example, would INCINERATE Superman - absolutely DEMOLISH him. Let him marinate in the sun for 20 years and she would STILL dismiss him with just a thought. It has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with his "solar reserves."

Getting knocked out does not necessarily mean you are hurt. Superman is not impervious to physical injury. He was hurt. Read the issue yourself. Like the number?

Superman's "reserves" were not depleted during the Doomsday battle. Let it go. Superman's reserves do NOT have to be depleted for him to get CRUSHED. LoL, if they WERE depleted, the fight would have lasted 1 1/2 minutes - you fail to realize just how powerful Doomsday is. Superman CANNOT defeat Doomsday again, reserves or otherwise. Doomsday CAN defeat Superman again. Superman CANNOT defeat The Shaggy Man. The Shaggy Man CAN defeat Superman, reserves or otherwise. You are incorrect as regards to Superman. Read up on more Superman battles all across the internet and you will see WHY.

Supreme durability does NOT mean that one is invulnerable. Hulk's durability is listed as demi-godlike. Wolverine walked through him in the #340's (although Hulk was about to kick his runt ass before they stopped the fight). Seen Spiderman's rating for durability?

"Read minds at the speed of light." What does this have to do with anything?

X-Men do not even have "far" more members than the JLA does. Will give you a list after giving you - or anyone else - a little more time to research their roster.

Re: Speed of light, wrong again. This is exactly why they say Superman and others CANNOT exceed the speed of light. Read JLA #2 with the Flash battle. LoL, why do you THINK that Flash NEVER runs at the speed of light on earth (or otherwise)? Like some quotes? And by the way, he cannot throw an object at light speed if he cannot RUN at light speed, now can he?

"Now able to run at speeds >>> approaching<<<< the speed of light, West donned the scarlet costume of The Flash to protect his hometown of Central City from any rogues who would consider causing it harm."

"The effect of the Speed Force on the original two Flashes was to grant them the ability to move at superhuman speeds, often at their peak moving at >>>a good fraction of light speed.<<<"

"This allows him not only to run at >>>near<<< light speed, but also to "vibrate" his body's molecules, enabling him to pass through solid matter. The Flash's speed has deteriorated somewhat with age."

"Powered by the extradimensional Speed Force, he can not only move at >>>near-lightspeed,<<<< but can transfer speed to and from others."

Like other "scientific" references when discussing moving at light-speed? This is AURORA from Alpha Flight.

"It was once theoretically possible for her to reach 99% of the speed of light (286,272 miles per second in a vacuum), although she never traveled at anywhere near that speed since if she did, >>>>she would wreak great damage upon herself end her environment.<<<<"

Wonder why it states that she would wreak great damage upon herself and the environment? Need other references of comic book feats being bound by the laws of physics when discussing objects moving at light speed on EARTH?

I did not "theorize," I have been debating Flash's abilities/battles - and others - for years. I know I am correct, and I know why I am correct. We also had this very same discussion on the other messageboard (comixfan.com) wherein the moderators backed me up. Like that link as well?

Does the x-men line up include only members of the x-men main team, or all mutants who have lived at the institute, including members of:

other teams (New mutants, x-factor, x-force, x-factor 2, GenX, x-statix, x-treme, new,)

What about other non x-men teams (alpha flight, avengers, excalibur, defenders, britain psi-corps, SHIELD, STRIKE, HYDRA, starjammers, imperial guard, hellfire club, morlocks, weapon x, brotherhood,)

What about x-men from alternate universes/timelines?
(days of future past, age of apocolypse, mojoworld, 2099, cable's future, garrison kane's future, bishops future, ultimate universe, doom's Cosmic cube reality, magnteo's cosmic cube reality, red skull's cosmic cube reality, etc..)
?

I was infact refering to those who have been at the institute. I didn't realise there was a difference between living there, and being an X-Man.

as a word invulnerable (in the dictionary)means 'cannot be hurt physically or mentally' but it is very loosely used in the comic book world.

Oh my God. Accidentally hit the "back" button and lost every damn thing I typed.

Spent 15 minutes typing this. GOD!

X-Men have had roughly 38 members. I will type them **again** when I calm the hell down.

The Uncanny X-Men roster only comprises members (current and past) of the Uncanny X-Men...residents do not count. For example, Victor Creed briefly resided at the Xavier Institute. He is no X-Man.

X-Factor was just that - X-Factor. Same with New Mutants, Starjammers, et cetera. SOME of those teams had X-Men members and vice versa; however, they are seperate entities.

X-Force, X-SE - NOT Uncanny X-Men, just like JLA is seperate from JSA.

Omg...cannot believe I lost all that I just typed

Okay, will try this again.

Original/classic members: Marvel Girl, Professor X, Hank McCoy, Cyclops, Ice Man, Angel, Havok, Polaris. I named the last two because of how early they joined - Polaris, Uncanny #49; Havoc, Uncanny #54. This is the purpose of my "original/classic" designation.

Giant Size #1 additions (I HAD this issue. Lost it): Storm, Thunderbird, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus.

95 issues, 13 characters. Sweating yet? No?

Kitty Pryde, Cecilia Reyes, Joseph, Juggernaut, Husk, Chamber, Cannonball, Sunfire, Magneto (sorry, Magneto was an X-Man), Maggott, Banshee, Illyana/Magik, Cable, Dazzler, Sage, Rogue, Emma Frost, Gambit, Gateway, Husk, Jubilee, Longshot, Marrow, Northstar, Psylocke.

Moonstar = part-time. Lockheed? Add him if you like.

Grand total of 38-40, depending on whether or not one wishes to include Dani and Lockheed. I **just might** have left out a very few on accident. Allow me that small margin of error. Questions?

And..."far more," sir...?

Like I said. I was just informed that there is infact a difference between living at the institute, and being an X-Man. Nor was I aware of the vast numbers of JLA members (Probably because of the classic line-up that seems to be spoken of, rather than X-Men's which people constantly rotate.)



Happen's to the best of us. I once typed out a review of Matrix Reloaded (When the hype was enourmous) and had someone link me to another website, I lost the whole 1 hour or so review that I'd written. Made me feel sick to my stomach with anger, and obviously I blocked the guy who linked me for a good deal of months.

Lil' update on where the Phoenix Force ranks amongst celestial beings in the Marvel Universe (in case some honestly thought I was being biased). Thread was asking where Odin-Thor or any skyfather would rank amongst the following.

Oblivion, Death, Eternity, Infinity
The Celestials
Phoenix Force, Galactus, The Stranger, Master Order, Lord Chaos
The Watchers, Skyfather
Mesphistos
The Elders of the Universe
Silver Surfer

Have you read the Infinity Gauntlet? The abstacts are slightly higher than Phoenix, I think.... But I'm not sure.

You know, I have never actually read The Infinity Gauntlet? Long story short, my best friend and I have been collecting comic books since we were ~10 years old (I am...er, 30-something and my best friend was killed on a motorcyle in '97) and both had "favorites." He had the series (I did not like Thanos then) whilst I collected Uncanny, FF, Alpha Flight, Cerebus, TMNT, et al. Never read it.

Threw away all of my comic books in the mid-80's as a way of pissing off my parents who would hide them as a form of punishment.

Silly, silly, silly me.

Abstracts...? On par with The Celestials?

I'm surprised you never read that. I would recommend it. Heck, its only six issues and I dont think its going for a whole bunch. I would stay away from the infinity crusade and the infinity war though (rubbish). The only reason to read the latter two would be for historical aspects.

They are actually believed to be above celestials. Have you read Earth X?

Actually Death is an Abstract, this is my list:

1:One Above all (aka God)
2: Living Tribunal
3:Inifity, Cosmic Cube
4: Abstracts (also, Captain Marvel destroyed the universe by him self, no gaunlet or cube, he's up here, he's a future Avenger, currently insane)
5: Celestials
6: Watchers,Phoenix Force, etc

Cosmic cube is not a character, it's an item

Genis (re)created the universe by himseelf as well

I'm talking about a wielder.

Who is evan daniels?

sont you mean scott summers

Evan Daniels is a charecter from X-Men Evolution, he shot spikes from his body

HEs not one of the original x-men though

That is not the first JLA. Try again...and who is Evan Daniels? Are you making these up?

Aw Christ... Don't even acknowledge that nonsense, Never. He's not making it up, he's just screwing it up. He's going by the roster of "X-Men: Evolution," and mixing up Cyclops with the horribly conceived made-for-TV character Spyke. Ugh...

Newsflash, mpatterson: that's not the X-Men. Those are kids, and two adults to make sure they don't kill each other during a food fight or Halloween shenanigans.

I don't object to people using the JLA roster from the cartoon, because at least it's mostly truthful. Considering heavy hitters like Superman, J'onn J'onzz, Wonder Woman, the Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, or whoever else wears the damn ring in this fight), and the underhanded ingenuity of the Batman, I'd put my money on the JLA, whatever the oppositional X-Men line-up was.
Of course, if Jean Grey and Charles Xavier both stepped in and overpowered J'onn J'onzz's telepathic defenses for the JLA, that might change things.

Bats, would it take Grey and Xavier to take on JJs mind?I thought He was not on their level but I don't actually know. Educate me.....................GO!!

MM is not on Xavier's level.

I would take Never's word for it over my own vague knowledge of the Martian Manhunter. He seems to know more about DC characters.

However...

I figure that Xavier is a very restrained telepath, out of necessity and as part of his heroism. The X-Men's biggest ace in the hole against the JLA is a psionic attack. The Martian Manhunter's instinct for survival is very likely to be stronger than Xavier's aggressive drive. There's a saying "the rabbit runs faster than the wolf because he is running for his life, and the wolf is running for his supper." Wolverine has said "the best killers aren't the ones who love death; they're the ones who love life." What this amounts to is that J'onn is more likely to spend more effort on protecting his team than cautious, ethical Xavier is on attacking them psychically. If Xavier's abilities far exceed J'onn's, then maybe it's a moot point.

If both Jean and Xavier hit J'onn, then it's definitely a moot point. Truthfully, I'm not sure how susceptible the big guns of the JLA are to mutant telepathy. For all I know, the green power ring can block that, and maybe extraterrestrials are less vulnerable.

Sorry, Kal. I'll school you on something else real soon with some kind of authority. DC heroes are impressive, but their limits are not my primary expertise.

Cheers Never/Bats. I'm pretty sure Xavier is more powerful and as you say Bats, he is the only one who could holod himself back. But he'd do anything to protect his wonderful x-children wouldn't he?

Did he not simply mind wipe Magneto when he had no other choice? LoL, as far as the "holding himself back" bit...exactly which part of Xavier's psyche merged with Magneto's to form Onslaught? His dark side? He DOES have one.

Xavier damn sure will subdue any opponent, even if it means wiping their mind.

Now...Green Lantern's willpower vs. Xavier's? Different matter entirely.

I checked back to see if this was a full roster fight. Apparently it is, this means that both Magneto and Joeseph his nice clone are on the team, that's double the metal bending fun from two Mutants powerful enough to rearange the Earth;s magnetic field. That's Steel screwed already.

i have to vote x-men on this one, only because they have xavier, not even theMartian Manhunter can protect his friends minds from xavier, it is the truth, and if phoenix is on this team, more problems. whithout xavier, jla would win kal-el and kyle would wipe them out

sorry, but if magneto is on the team than there are no chance of jla to win, sorry. But joseph is not so powerfull like magnus, magnus controll much more is magnetic powers he is the god of magnetism.

Full roster X-Men would wipe the floor with the JLA, in my opinion. They have Xavier and Jean Grey, along with Emma Frost, X-Man (Nate Grey, who was hella powerful), and Cable who can take out most of the JLA just by thinking about it. I would like to see Bishop and Batman go at it in a brawl though, that would be a cool battle to see.

I'm a Marvel boy, so my opinion is biased, and I don't know that much about the JLA.

Then how on earth can you fairly judge the talents and abilities of all parties participating?

Wipe the floor? You seriously are underestimating the JLA.

I posted a biased account, but I did admit that I was.

I was thinking about the sheer number of almost omni-powerful mutants that the X-Men have had in their service at some time or another. I'm pretty sure there's someone who can give Superman a psionically induced anyeurism.

That have had exactly one almost omni-powerful mutant.

Martian Manhunter is capable of psionically protecting his teammates.

Fine then, since I'm a newbie to this board, I concede defeat.

let put it this way with out wolverine they don't got ashot

What?

with otu wolverine there now ay the x-men could even give thema fight

sorry I emnt to say with out wolverine there no way the x-men could even give them a fight

3 Characters make the current xmen almost impossible to beat...

PHOENIX, JUGGERNAUT, ICEMAN.

the current jla doesn't stand a chance.

another interesting note is that flash is only tied to the speed force in dc.
so if this battle was somewhere else (like the marvel univserse) he'd just be a slow ass human who couldn't do crap just like in jla vs avengers.

martian manhunter can not telepathically stop the phoenix...she's tied to the billion upon billions of minds in the multiverse which is where she draws her power from.

i'd like to see superman hurt iceman. he's pure ice...he punches him he reforms, he uses heat vision he reforms....iceman can exist in all three states solid, liquid and gas...he doesn't have internal organs and is psionically powered...just like aquaman can control the h20 in your brain iceman can do the same...

IS this truth, since when can iceman control water, can he control an ocean?, and aquaman? he to can control the water in your head?, i never heard of this.

Bingo. When she occupied Bobby's body, she gave him but a PEEK of his vast potential.

You then see him beginning to understand just how powerful he is during the Onslaught story arc when he detects Xavier's presence (think it was Xavier) via body temperature.

Full Potential Iceman is indeed on some next level "ish."

not just iceman's potential...he's done this stuff already. a good story arc is the one with bastion. you see bobby really cut loose. he's turned into water, traveled down a river, turn to gas and reform to solid form. even from a puddle...if you need issues i'll get them...

aquaman can control the water molecules in your brain because we all come from the ocean...well that's how it was explained in the comic book.

and bobby did this to emma after finding out she did this to him...

also, it wasn't white queen who got bobby to realize his potential...it was actually mikhail rasputin...

oh btw did you know he can float and move in the air without the use of those stupid ice slides we were all accustomed to?

also he's taken on the stranger...and won. (but not on his own but with some help...i think it was with toad, juggernaut with none of cytorraks powers, mystique and jean.

Aye, that is why I said Emma granted him a peek. She only showed him, but refused to tutor him.

then if this is true aquaman can beat superman right?

LoL, I never heard that Aquaman can control the water molecules in your brain..."because we all come from the ocean?"

Alrighty then.

And as a matter of fact, the current Aquaman cannot. That was the Aquaman from the 853rd Century or something, with Superman Prime.

Iceman still wouldn't be a problem. Have martian Manhunter shut down his brain, or Green Lantern contain him in an energy bubble.

I don't see how Juggernaut would be a big asset either, the JLA have fought plenty of super strong villians. Wonder Woman or Superman alone could take care of him. The JLA strictly out power the X-men in all possible ways. The X-mebn don't even have anybody that can touch the flash. His mind even moves to quick for telepaths to get a hold of.

And what about Phoenix?

Superman and Wonderwoman have both been shown to be able to be able to shake off the effects of telepethy. Platic man no longer has a "mind" that can be controlled at all. Green lantern has sometimes been able to shake on mindcontrol. Sometimes not. Martian manhunter and Aquaman may not be the telepaths that Jean and Emma are, but they could at least keep them busy until Flash runs up behind them and knocks them out. That's what I hate about DC comics, they're just too $&^% powerful.

I'd assume Xavier would stay out of the fight. He always seems to.

Now if you had Phoenix (not Jean, the REAL Phoenix,) and magneto both, then it would be an awsome fight.

Not sure what you mean by the REAL Phoenix considering Jean Grey was the first "REAL" Phoenix, and is currently (ack, have not read the latest issue so if she is no longer, I stand corrected) host to the Phoenix entity.

Again, the Phoenix multiplies the powers of its host infinitely...and neither Superman nor Wonderwoman have encountered a telepath on the level of The Phoenix.

Dark Phoenix (I know we are referencing Phoenix, but still) would destroy Superman with but a thought. Rachel would take...what, 2 thoughts?

Jean? Three.

Hal Jordan would be better than Kyle...and what you presented is one scenario out of countless battle scenarios With no prep there is no way that Flash would know who is and who is not a telepath.

This topic is still goin' on!

Rofl, this again blew up in your face! LMFAO!

lol god wolverine8888 is so fukin stupid and annoying

Hes a wolverine fan like me but i think that guy needs to actually read something on wolverine cuz he is full of crap, he doesn't know a thing about him

i can't believe this is being debated. juggernaut iceman phoenix, doesn't make a difference. dc is too powerful. that and the "juggernaut" currently appearing doesn't have his power. atleast not all of it. so he's no help. i can't see the x-men win this. in any way shape or form.

LoL. Phoenix stomped Galactus and you cannot see how the X-Men ***can**** win it?

I guess

When I said the real Phoenix, I was referring to how she originally appeared. The Phoenix forced coppied Jean Grey's mind and body but was NOT Jean. That version, which later went on to become Dark Phoenix has been shown to be more powerful than any other incarnation.

Now people keep dragging up what the characters can do at the very peaks of their abilites. randomly pick up a comicbook. ANY comicbook. Characters hardly ever use the peak abilites. If they did, the JLA would even be more dangerous. Flash can lend his speed. Imagine taking on the entire JLA, while they were wearing atrenght encahnced armor created from GL's ring and speed gifted to them by the Flash.

Full power is for last minute desperation and the X-men wouldn't have the time.

why can't people face the facts?

Fact #1. Phoenix is the embodiment of life and draws power from ALL...EVEN THE UNBORN. Which means you take every superhero, supervillain, race in all of Marvel's multiverse and you put that power into one single entity and that's phoenix. AND YES THIS HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY. READ SECRET WARS.

Fact #2. FLASH couldn't touch ANY XMEN in MARVEL. The SPEED FORCE only exists in DC. Flash LOST to QUICKSILVER in the Savage Land. Then eventually had no speed at all.

*Interesting note...it's funny how marvel characters got stronger traveling to DC while DC characters got weaker.

Fact #3. As written by Chris Claremont in his last run on uncanny x-men, SPEED OF THOUGHT is FASTER THAN SPEED OF LIGHT. I have to find the exact issue on this one. BUT IT IS WRITTEN and THEREFORE must be considered as true.

Fact #4. Rogue can access the power of any being she has EVER touched. Hmm...she's touched Thor...

Side Notes:

-Yes martian manhunter is probably the only JLA character who can possibly stop iceman due his telepathic abilities.
But I just have to wonder if Martian Manhunter would even stick around when he sees a big celestial fiery bird by the name of Phoenix looming over him.

-Excluding current Aquaman with the waterbearer, hand since we really don't know what he is capable of just yet, the last incarnation of aquaman with the pirahna bitten off hand was able to control anything with ancestry based from water.

don't all living things on earth have their ancestry based on water?

I do know what I talken about just to let u know. any ways I think x-men could take this one they got way mroe peopel also wich let say make thsi no ware near a fair match

What? Never said it was "Jean." The Phoenix Force is the Phoenix Force. It uses a HOST, similar to Proteus.

Neither Jean nor Rachel need "full power" to torch the JLA. Neither one of them.

Still LoL @ Superman and Wonderwoman shaking off the effects of Rachel's telepathic ability magnific INFINITELY.



Heh. Darwin's General Theory of Evolution has been discredited.

Sounded as if you were giving that as a reason Aquaman could control "the water in your brain." And again, I am almost certain that was Aquaman Prime. He was able to control both the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water.