Numbers

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shadowy_blue

raven guardia
well maybe its a form of symbolism.....or maybe he suffers from the psychological disorder call OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder)

shadowy_blue
What's the OCD all about? Is it like a disorder about numbers?

Kitoky
You think too much shadowy wink

But I still love ya love

I have noticed that the odd numbers are very common in Tolkien's story.

shadowy_blue
LOL..nothing to do. laughing Luv ya too though. love big grin stick out tongue

Yeah, but why not include 5? Why 3, 7, and 9? confused

Kitoky
Not fives because the fact that people are used to 5 as a common number, 5, 10, 15 yeah, it's a bit open. smile

shadowy_blue
OK...big grin The 5 is clear now. big grin But any thoughts on 3, 7, and 9 (other than they're common?) big grin

raven guardia
OCD is a disorder, where well let me explain like this

Obsession- is an intruding thought, that interrupts you every day life.

Compulsion- is an intruding behavior.

and well I'm sure you know what a dissorde is.

for example.....some with OCD. might constantly think of germs that would be the obsession. and they would want to wash there constantly that would be the compulsion.

OCD, could have any obsession it can range form numbers to strom's or even being clean....and the compulsion can have a wide range too. some cases of this disorder are very extreme and others are not as bad.

Adolf Hittler Had OCD that is one of the reasons he tried ruling Germany, not to mention the un-just treatment Germany had to go through after WW1.

shadowy_blue
oh, ok, thanks! big grin But I think Tolkien is just obsessed with his numbers and use them frequently. He's not that obsessed with his other characters and events though. big grin

raven guardia
yes, well numbers could be part of the disorder...sometimes people will only go for odd numbers,or just even. its hard to say.

but there was this man once who every time went up the stairs, he would count to 6,000 before each step. it took him a total of eight hours to climb the stairs in his own hous. and if he would bumb something or get interupted while counting he would go all the back to the last step and start over agian.

LegolasLover411
Uh.......... blink

Kitoky
Hey raven has there been a thread that mentioned the numbering in the HP forum?

raven guardia
no but I do know what the numbers mean

raven guardia
hold I will put them up

LegolasLover411
..................................................

jorgeiscool
I know that a lot of fairy tale writers used 3 a lot (Cinderella-2 evil step sisters and evil step mom and Sleeping Beauty-3 fairy god mothers and now that i think of it Snow White- 7 Dwarves)

shadowy_blue
That's...odd...and....creepy.... messed

raven guardia
~~~what the Numbers mean~~~

THREE- three represents the idea of completeness or wholeness, as in the trio "past-present-future" and "mind-body-spirit". the Pythagoreans considered three to be the first "complete" number because, like three pebbles laid out in a row, it has a Begining, a middle and an end. three indicates talent, energy, an artistic nature, humor and social ease.

SEVEN- is considered a mystical or magical number because of its associations with the biblical seven days of creation, and the seven heavenly bodies of ancient astronomy( sun,moon, mercury, Venus, mars, Saturn and Jupiter)

NINE- represents completion and achievement to the fullest degree, as it is the "complete" number, three expressed three times (3x3=9).

shadowy_blue
Thanks for that. smile And now I have to analyze those and their relations to Tolkien's world before I go to sleep. big grin

Smodden
um i know that 7 is a number of completeness and it is also in some countries considered to be a "clean" number, as in it is pure and sacred...maybee tolkien chose 7 for that reason...*shrugs*

raven guardia
well like posted a bit earlier...its probably a hidden form of symbolism. its more likely symbolism then OCD. because he is a writer and many writes do use symbolism in there work.

shadowy_blue
You're right, symbolism, yes. But I still want to know what they symbolize. stick out tongue This will haunt me for days til I either get some answers or forget about it. big grin

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, you already posted what they symbolize. Thanks for that again. smile

raven guardia
well I would try and help you, but I never read the books just saw the first two movies (I didnt see ROTK yet). but if you have any questions on symbolism or anything like that I will be glad to help.

raven guardia
no, problem. smile stick out tongue

shadowy_blue
whhhaaatttt!?!?!! You haven't seen ROTK yet!? miffed:



LOL...just kidding...stick out tongue


Watch it as soon as you can...this may not be your first time hearing this but it's a really amazing and wonderful movie to the nth degree. big grin

raven guardia
okay,....I will try to see as soon as possible. I wanted to watch it over christmas brake but my freind wanted to see peter pan instead. roll eyes (sarcastic)

aniron
ha ha ha ha ha ha good thread, I never thought about it, thats a good point.

Discos
Discos - perhaps we should all go over to the "most clever award" and have a vote,

Discos
it is a good point, perhaps on deciding how much numbers each "thing" was going to have he would pick numbers out of a hat and it seemed to be 3,7 & 9 alot.....

Bloom4ever
or maybe it was just coincidence lol? big grin

Discos
another good point

raven guardia
no I believe it is hidden symbolism many writes use it.

raven guardia
well it seems to me that maybe the numbers co-inside with the charecters. because the nine means complete and to me the way shadowy_blue discribed the charecters for nine it makes sense that is complete. and for the number seven, shadowy_blue said that there was seven stones and seven stars. well the number seven often represents (in greek mythology) that the earth was made in seven days, and the first seven planets. If this confueses any one look back at page one and I have the meanings of the numbers.....maybe one of you can figure some thing out smile

Exa
3 and 9 occur quite often as theyre important numbers in the duodecimal system (based on 12 while our decimal system is based on 10) that is always present in Tolkiens works as its far more natural than the decimal system somehow / you also often have the words dozen and gross as parts in this system, and practically all the calendaries in middleearth are based on it.

raven guardia
Hmmmmmm. oh, I got an idea....I will be right back!

raven guardia
okay I found some other number translations, most are the same as what I posted earlier .....but okay here they are.



THREE~
Three signifies life, vitality, inner strength, completion, imagination, creativity, energy, and self-exploration. Three stands for trilogy as in the past, present, and future or father, mother, and child, etc

SEVEN~
Seven signifies mental perfection, healing, completion, music and attainment of high spirituality. Additionally, you are unique and eccentric.


NINE~
Nine denotes completion and that you are on a productive path. Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world.

TWELVE~
Twelve denotes spiritual strength and divine perfection

Exa
Interestingly twelve also occurs in earlier versions of the ringverse:


Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die,
Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of Stone,
Three for the Elven-kings under the sky,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.

and later

Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star,
Seven for the Dwarf-Lord in their halls of stone,
Three for Mortal Men that wander far
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.




Three - what you said is exactly how elves are

and Nine "Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world" - lol interesting, rebirth for nazgul big grin

raven guardia
hmmmm, now I gonna wonder about this until I find an answer.....

twelve, could mean about the strenght,...but man is far from perfect. I never read the books. maybe I should that way I could figure this out.

I will go see what the number one represents maybe that is another clue stick out tongue

I will back

sauron
maybe he just wanted to be like the bible lol


the number FORTY in the bilble is like......never off the pages

Exa
big grin

About numbers in the bible (and elsewhere):

http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp32.htm
http://www.anycities.com/hilltop/chap2s.htm
http://www.endtime.org/library/articles/symbolism.html
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/gl/GL5.html
http://www.greatdreams.com/nine/nine.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Numbers.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/17Scanastro/07Scanas.htm

3 = the number of steps in the process of simple synthetic integration, and the number of explicit elements;

7 = the symbol of logical systemization on a higher level, as a dynamic
process involving self-renewal and transformation (= 3+4);

9 = the number of steps (and elements) in the operation of second level synthetic integration;

12 = the perfection of logical systemization on the level of a single system (3.4).

raven guardia
I just found another big clue......

ONE~ this is the number of the individual. ones are independent, for caused, single minded and determined. they set a goal and stick to it. they are leaders and inventors. ones find it difficult to work with others and dont like to take orders. they can be self centered, egotistical, and domineering. they are often loners.

Exa
"leaders... difficult to work with others... loners... self centered, egoistical, dont take orders" - LOL that does sound a little like the Lord of the One Ring big grin

raven guardia
lol,...it sounds like the Dark Lord to me.

Firithlotwen

dileno
Didn't see this topic until now, but it's interesting! You've got a great point shadowy_blue! Great! This I'll remember. smile

Exa

raven guardia
maybesmile , but I'm sure what ever the symbolism is it has a significant meaning.......or maybe he does have OCD *thinks*......Na, I doubt it.

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