Numbers

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shadowy_blue
I was wondering..what's up with Tolkien and his numbers? Especially 3, 7 and 9

For the number 3:

When the Fellowship split up,it was like this:
Frodo,Sam,Sméagol
Aragorn,Legolas,Gimli
Merry,Pippin,Treebeard

Another things with number 3:
3 groups of Elves went to Aman; The Noldor, The Vanyar, and The Teleri
There are 3 Houses of the Edain
There were 3 Silmarils
3 ''people'' took the Ring to Mordor

For 7:

There was the White Tree of Gondor with 7 flowers
There was the 7 Stars that were the emblem of Elendil and his heirs
There are 7 palantiri (the 8th is in the Tower of Avallónë)
There also 7 forefathers of the Dwarves.
7 sons of Fëanor
Seven Rivers of Ossiriand

There are many especially of the number 9:

9 Nazgűls
9 members of the Fellowship
Frodo ends up with 9 fingers
Sauron had 9 fingers
is it maybe...like Nazgűls X Fellowship,Frodo X Sauron?

There's also a thing about 14. 14 Valar, minus Melkor and 14 companions in "The Hobbit", but I think those are just two references to number 14 so it's not that important.

Combinations:

3 rings to the Elves
7 to the Dwarves
9 to the Kings of Men

"Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."

Not only was the number 3 mentioned but 3 times 3 is equal to 9. The number 7 is also mentioned and if you added the 7 stones and 7 stars, there are 14.



They may be more, and I don't think that this is just coincidence, the number 3, 7 and 9 may have a significant role in Tolkien's life. Anybody know what these "special" numbers mean. big grin

raven guardia
well maybe its a form of symbolism.....or maybe he suffers from the psychological disorder call OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder)

shadowy_blue
What's the OCD all about? Is it like a disorder about numbers?

Kitoky
You think too much shadowy wink

But I still love ya love

I have noticed that the odd numbers are very common in Tolkien's story.

shadowy_blue
LOL..nothing to do. laughing Luv ya too though. love big grin stick out tongue

Yeah, but why not include 5? Why 3, 7, and 9? confused

Kitoky
Not fives because the fact that people are used to 5 as a common number, 5, 10, 15 yeah, it's a bit open. smile

shadowy_blue
OK...big grin The 5 is clear now. big grin But any thoughts on 3, 7, and 9 (other than they're common?) big grin

raven guardia
OCD is a disorder, where well let me explain like this

Obsession- is an intruding thought, that interrupts you every day life.

Compulsion- is an intruding behavior.

and well I'm sure you know what a dissorde is.

for example.....some with OCD. might constantly think of germs that would be the obsession. and they would want to wash there constantly that would be the compulsion.

OCD, could have any obsession it can range form numbers to strom's or even being clean....and the compulsion can have a wide range too. some cases of this disorder are very extreme and others are not as bad.

Adolf Hittler Had OCD that is one of the reasons he tried ruling Germany, not to mention the un-just treatment Germany had to go through after WW1.

shadowy_blue
oh, ok, thanks! big grin But I think Tolkien is just obsessed with his numbers and use them frequently. He's not that obsessed with his other characters and events though. big grin

raven guardia
yes, well numbers could be part of the disorder...sometimes people will only go for odd numbers,or just even. its hard to say.

but there was this man once who every time went up the stairs, he would count to 6,000 before each step. it took him a total of eight hours to climb the stairs in his own hous. and if he would bumb something or get interupted while counting he would go all the back to the last step and start over agian.

LegolasLover411
Uh.......... blink

Kitoky
Hey raven has there been a thread that mentioned the numbering in the HP forum?

raven guardia
no but I do know what the numbers mean

raven guardia
hold I will put them up

LegolasLover411
..................................................

jorgeiscool
I know that a lot of fairy tale writers used 3 a lot (Cinderella-2 evil step sisters and evil step mom and Sleeping Beauty-3 fairy god mothers and now that i think of it Snow White- 7 Dwarves)

shadowy_blue
That's...odd...and....creepy.... messed

raven guardia
~~~what the Numbers mean~~~

THREE- three represents the idea of completeness or wholeness, as in the trio "past-present-future" and "mind-body-spirit". the Pythagoreans considered three to be the first "complete" number because, like three pebbles laid out in a row, it has a Begining, a middle and an end. three indicates talent, energy, an artistic nature, humor and social ease.

SEVEN- is considered a mystical or magical number because of its associations with the biblical seven days of creation, and the seven heavenly bodies of ancient astronomy( sun,moon, mercury, Venus, mars, Saturn and Jupiter)

NINE- represents completion and achievement to the fullest degree, as it is the "complete" number, three expressed three times (3x3=9).

shadowy_blue
Thanks for that. smile And now I have to analyze those and their relations to Tolkien's world before I go to sleep. big grin

Smodden
um i know that 7 is a number of completeness and it is also in some countries considered to be a "clean" number, as in it is pure and sacred...maybee tolkien chose 7 for that reason...*shrugs*

raven guardia
well like posted a bit earlier...its probably a hidden form of symbolism. its more likely symbolism then OCD. because he is a writer and many writes do use symbolism in there work.

shadowy_blue
You're right, symbolism, yes. But I still want to know what they symbolize. stick out tongue This will haunt me for days til I either get some answers or forget about it. big grin

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, you already posted what they symbolize. Thanks for that again. smile

raven guardia
well I would try and help you, but I never read the books just saw the first two movies (I didnt see ROTK yet). but if you have any questions on symbolism or anything like that I will be glad to help.

raven guardia
no, problem. smile stick out tongue

shadowy_blue
whhhaaatttt!?!?!! You haven't seen ROTK yet!? miffed:



LOL...just kidding...stick out tongue


Watch it as soon as you can...this may not be your first time hearing this but it's a really amazing and wonderful movie to the nth degree. big grin

raven guardia
okay,....I will try to see as soon as possible. I wanted to watch it over christmas brake but my freind wanted to see peter pan instead. roll eyes (sarcastic)

aniron
ha ha ha ha ha ha good thread, I never thought about it, thats a good point.

Discos
Discos - perhaps we should all go over to the "most clever award" and have a vote,

Discos
it is a good point, perhaps on deciding how much numbers each "thing" was going to have he would pick numbers out of a hat and it seemed to be 3,7 & 9 alot.....

Bloom4ever
or maybe it was just coincidence lol? big grin

Discos
another good point

raven guardia
no I believe it is hidden symbolism many writes use it.

raven guardia
well it seems to me that maybe the numbers co-inside with the charecters. because the nine means complete and to me the way shadowy_blue discribed the charecters for nine it makes sense that is complete. and for the number seven, shadowy_blue said that there was seven stones and seven stars. well the number seven often represents (in greek mythology) that the earth was made in seven days, and the first seven planets. If this confueses any one look back at page one and I have the meanings of the numbers.....maybe one of you can figure some thing out smile

Exa
3 and 9 occur quite often as theyre important numbers in the duodecimal system (based on 12 while our decimal system is based on 10) that is always present in Tolkiens works as its far more natural than the decimal system somehow / you also often have the words dozen and gross as parts in this system, and practically all the calendaries in middleearth are based on it.

raven guardia
Hmmmmmm. oh, I got an idea....I will be right back!

raven guardia
okay I found some other number translations, most are the same as what I posted earlier .....but okay here they are.



THREE~
Three signifies life, vitality, inner strength, completion, imagination, creativity, energy, and self-exploration. Three stands for trilogy as in the past, present, and future or father, mother, and child, etc

SEVEN~
Seven signifies mental perfection, healing, completion, music and attainment of high spirituality. Additionally, you are unique and eccentric.


NINE~
Nine denotes completion and that you are on a productive path. Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world.

TWELVE~
Twelve denotes spiritual strength and divine perfection

Exa
Interestingly twelve also occurs in earlier versions of the ringverse:


Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die,
Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of Stone,
Three for the Elven-kings under the sky,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.

and later

Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star,
Seven for the Dwarf-Lord in their halls of stone,
Three for Mortal Men that wander far
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.




Three - what you said is exactly how elves are

and Nine "Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world" - lol interesting, rebirth for nazgul big grin

raven guardia
hmmmm, now I gonna wonder about this until I find an answer.....

twelve, could mean about the strenght,...but man is far from perfect. I never read the books. maybe I should that way I could figure this out.

I will go see what the number one represents maybe that is another clue stick out tongue

I will back

sauron
maybe he just wanted to be like the bible lol


the number FORTY in the bilble is like......never off the pages

Exa
big grin

About numbers in the bible (and elsewhere):

http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp32.htm
http://www.anycities.com/hilltop/chap2s.htm
http://www.endtime.org/library/articles/symbolism.html
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/gl/GL5.html
http://www.greatdreams.com/nine/nine.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Numbers.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/17Scanastro/07Scanas.htm

3 = the number of steps in the process of simple synthetic integration, and the number of explicit elements;

7 = the symbol of logical systemization on a higher level, as a dynamic
process involving self-renewal and transformation (= 3+4);

9 = the number of steps (and elements) in the operation of second level synthetic integration;

12 = the perfection of logical systemization on the level of a single system (3.4).

raven guardia
I just found another big clue......

ONE~ this is the number of the individual. ones are independent, for caused, single minded and determined. they set a goal and stick to it. they are leaders and inventors. ones find it difficult to work with others and dont like to take orders. they can be self centered, egotistical, and domineering. they are often loners.

Exa
"leaders... difficult to work with others... loners... self centered, egoistical, dont take orders" - LOL that does sound a little like the Lord of the One Ring big grin

raven guardia
lol,...it sounds like the Dark Lord to me.

Firithlotwen
well im a matematician, and all i can tell you is that 3 has beautifull properties, but only as a number... i guess we matematicians dont worry about that kind of stuff...

anyway, i'd like to point out that every theology has its magical or sacred or whatever numbers, so it's ok for tolkien's world to have them wink

and, here is what i found... it's very interesting, here is the website:
http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html

------------
The formulas that the Lord of Mordor used have universal foundations. Throughout mythology certain esoteric principles seem to permeate, not the least of which are the value of certain numbers.

Three is a nearly divine number, incorporating opposing principles in 'balance' - the two balanced by the one; it represents the 'family', the power of creation in a mother, a father and their offspring who ostensibly bears the best of the two parents combined. It is fitting - and ironic - that the divinity of three should accrue to the Elves, who were not only born immortal, but were the cherished 'children' of the Valar, and shared nearly equal powers in many things. Indeed, the Elves might have early been divided into three groups, those who elected to depart for Valinor and went - the Vanyar, those who elected to depart for Valinor but were delayed - loosly the Teleri, and those who elected to stay in Middle-earth - the Avari.

Seven could be summed up as a number of 'redemption'; it can be divided into the creative force of four and the divine principle of three. The Dwarves were 'redeemed' by Ilúvatar after Aulë created them covertly prior to the awakening of the Elves; their creation was outside the will of Ilúvatar, and Aulë, in his shame, was prepared to destroy these hapless creatures. He raised his great hammer to crush them while they cowered in fear and begged for mercy. The Supreme Being had compassion on the Dwarves and stayed Aulë's hand. He willed that the Dwarves sleep until after the time of awakening of the Quendi, the first of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Because Aulë was the Vala of crafting and fashioning, the Dwarves were intended to be craftsmen, thus the involvement of the creative force of four; since they were created directly by a Vala, rather than in the process of the will of Ilúvatar, and survived by divine judgment, they enjoyed a special divine destiny, thus the involvement of three.

Nine is a number of man; some modern scholars dispute this evaluation, but a review of ancient cosmologies, including the early Christian church, will confirm this analysis. Nine holds the promise of ten - perfection - just by proximity. The number nine is subject to both six, the only 'evil' number, and three, the divine principle. The nature of man is forever torn between the lusts of pride and flesh on the one hand, and the noble values of a divine nature on the other.

Thus Sauron, through Professor Tolkien, assigns three rings to the Elves, seven to the Dwarves and nine to men. If the Elves would bring an alliance of their three rings with the nine rings of men, the combined power would equal twelve; twelve is a worldly number, a number of material completion. The combination would provide considerable power to the alliance, but not a match for the supernatural power of one: the One Ring.

One is a number of unity - everything in existence in one principle; but it is also a number of chaos, especially to a worldly perspective. No worldly force can stand in the wake of one. No worldly power can reconcile the chaos of one.

An alliance between the three rings of the Elves and the seven rings of the Dwarves would bring forth the power of ten; ten is a number of divine perfection. It is philosophically questionable whether the worldly races could attain to that number; but Tolkien, the master story spinner, interdicted such a possibility by setting a stubborn enmity between the two races. The Dwarves were a crabby covetous race, yet able to craft objects of great beauty and skill. It is said in one place that the Dwarves could craft great beauty, but they could not conceive of it. They crafted as the Elves designed and directed.

In the First Age the Elven Sindarin King, Elu Thingol, husband of the divine Maia, Melian, commissioned the Dwarves to set one of the Silmaril jewels into a golden necklace already bedecked with gems from the Undying Lands in the West by the Noldor. The Dwarves conceived an evil covetousness for the stunning piece - the Nauglamir - and slew Thingol in his palace of Menegroth - the 'Thousand Caves' - and escaped with the necklace towards their fortress of Nogrod in the mountains of the Ered Luin in the East. However the Elves swiftly regrouped and retook the Nauglamir ere the Dwarves had traveled far. They returned it to the distressed and grieving Melian. Then the Dwarves raised a great force at Nogrod and marched on Doriath, the kingdom of King Elu Thingol.

Melian had already yielded up her natural body and returned to the Eternal Lands to grieve her loss, thus lifting her divine protection over Menegroth and the kingdom of Doriath. The Dwarves descended on Menegroth with great vengeance, and great was the carnage of that battle. Without the protection of Melian or the courage of Thingol, the Elves of Doriath again lost the Nauglamir to the Dwarves amid terrible losses.

At the Ford of Athrad a combined force of Sindarin and Sylvan Elves, with Beren, son-in-law of Thingol and one of the most valiant of Men of this age, counterattacked and slew the Dwarves and reclaimed the Nauglamir. The few Dwarves that escaped were set upon by Ents as they climbed desperately upwards towards their mountain fortress.

From that time forward enmity festered between Elves and Dwarves, enmity that survived all the way into the last part of the Third Age and the War of the Ring.

Thus Sauron felt confident that he had nothing to fear from any alliance of Dwarves and Elves. When the Dwarf, Gimli, joined the Fellowship of the Ring, he represented the lone exception to this evil calculation by the Dark Lord.

Yet it troubled him, no doubt; most especially while he lacked possession of his necessary instrument: the One Ring.

An alliance of the seven of Dwarves and the nine of Men would equal sixteen, which yields seven , still subject to the power of the Lord of Mordor and the One.

But without his Ring, Sauron could only worry...

dileno
Didn't see this topic until now, but it's interesting! You've got a great point shadowy_blue! Great! This I'll remember. smile

Exa
... there are also the Seven Rivers of Ossiriand ("seven-river-land"wink, Seven Stars in the Valacirca (ie. all the planets except for arda - which is the center - and Venus which is Earendil and not a star), Seven Palantíri, Seven Stars of Elendil, seven great rivers in Southern Gondor, seven levels and seven gates in Minas Tirith, Seven Gates of Orfalch Echor and the Chamber of Mazarbul is on the 7th sole of Moria.


3 is the Perfect Number of God (the Trinity),

7 is the sum of God (3) and the World (4), so the perfect union big grin (see 7armed candle thing, 7 days of creation, 7 sins (and their 7 positive counterparts), 7 sacraments and so on

9 is three times three, there are 9 steps of ?salvation (*doesnt know the right word*) and jesus died in the 9th hour of roman time.

raven guardia
maybesmile , but I'm sure what ever the symbolism is it has a significant meaning.......or maybe he does have OCD *thinks*......Na, I doubt it.

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