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I was reading CNN and it said that SAN FRANCISCO people are allowed to gave same sex marriage.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/17/samesex.marriage/index.html

Do you agree?

I think personally its a great idea because i know for a fact that people who are gay cant have the same legal responsibilty as straight people for example if a gay person dies his/her partner is not seen as next of kin.

it's simply an outrage that it's not allowed in every country yet

Well...sure, why not.. It's discrimination otherwise..

I agree with yerss on this

Just a reminder....please don't ruin this thread like some ppl did with this one:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t25726.html

dont become to religious or to political about it

^ditto.

yeah i hope the same wired people dont ruin this thread.




People have to undertsand that times are changing and that same sex marriage is ok.

why wouldn't it be ok?

They don't ?

marraige is between a man and a woman, and that's what i believe, i don't approve of gays, and it's mainly because i don't understand why the SAME gender would love eachother in a way that a MAn and a WOMAN would.

That's just my thouhgts on it, like it or not.

well TF my first comment on that is

how can you or anyone define love, because you have to define love to say that it can only be applied to ppl of the opposite gender

that's what true love is

define true love

wow TF; look it up in a dictoinary, true and love, it never says it's between a man and a woman

A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.


There you go, very obviously it could be applied to same sex relationships quite easily.

Dude, true love is something each one of us feels at a moment in life, and it's up to each one of us to decide who we love... so, why do u find it so hard to believe that some guy loves another guy or a gal loves another gal ? I cannot see myself doing smth like this but as I said earlier, people are different... How would something like this affect u ? Why would u stand against someone else's happines ?

it's because the word "true love" isn't in the dictionary, sorry but the only reason i'm arguing for no same sex marraige is because i've got something that tells me it's wrong

would you guys marry or even date, another guy?

TF, up to this point I haven't, cause I'm attracted to girls, but if I'm interested in guys, it's quite normal that I do that, no?

and what makes you tell it's wrong? cause you're being vague here

I wouldn't, because I'm not gay, I would however marry or date someone I am attracted to biologically, and for homosexuals, that is simply someone of the same sex rather then oposite sex.

I say if you wanna take it in the butt then I'm not here to stop you.

Argh...crap .. edited now..The only perspective from which this might seem 'wrong' is the strictly biological one, that beeing, that two ppl of the same sex cannot reproduce...

EDIT- so true love is in the dictionary, but it is also defined in a nother book

I would only stand against someone elses happiness if i knew it was wrong, just like how a son will bring a girl, that he loves, over to his house to meet his parents, and how the mother would be able to tell if she was going to be a good wife, or a bad wife. So the mother might take the son aside and talk to him about how he really feels about her. The mother only wants to help.

But do u think the mother actually knows what the boy 'feels' ? Do u think a more rational approach is better than a strong belief in feelings ?

well i couldn't make it anymore obvious here but i'm not trying to be too religious, i'm just stating why i feel it's wrong. That's all, we all have different things that we believe in.

More illogical mindsents and beliefs caused by religion, way to go God.

It's not actually God's fault...rather that of the holy institutions that govern religion...

well in this case she's using a belief in feelings, that's why she questions the son, but for a more rational approach, what would you mean?

God didn't do this, we did, we chose to, it's our decision

g2g

And what a bad decision it is.

I mean the mother says what she says because she rationally deduces that it would not be a good choice.. but the son feels it is not so, he feels love, even though his mother cannot understand, what he feels is above any logic..

My two cents worth. I think the reason that there's so much controversy over it in the US is that churches see marriage as a union between a man and a woman established by God - speaking in biblical terms. The fact that our society has been built from religious principles keeps that perspective in almost every area of government. I think that calling it a contract or union or any other term besides "marriage" would probably pass for most people a little easier. I think one of you mentioned in another thread that this happened in your country first, and eventually it came to be called a marriage. Most people that I know who would have a problem with same-sex "marriage" would probably not have a problem with some sort of legal "contract" to allow tax breaks, etc. I've even heard the proposal of such a "contract" for siblings who live together unmarried or cousins or friends, etc. - no sexual connotation - just financial, tax-breaks, etc. I think that is where it will have to start if there is to eventually be acceptance of same-sex marriage. Get the technical/financial stuff passed first. Then see where it goes from there. Does that make sense?

?????????
one cant help who one fall in love with. Dont see why gay marriages should be less allowed than religious beliefs

Idd..

the way i see it is that some people are attracted to the same sex and that they should not be treated any differently and should have all the privilidges of a heterosexual couple. If you refuse to allow gay couples to marry then in my eyes it is discriminatoryand the same as saying e.g. white people are not allowed to marry

hey that would be a blessing more than discrimination

lol! some people should need a license before they are able to
a) marry
b) breed

"actually, it's more of a guideline than a rule"
(ghostbusters)

That quote also comes up in POTC...

keep the religion and politics limited ppl

I think that if gay's and lesbo's want to get married, more power to them. It's not infringing on our rights so it's not unconstitutional and I have no religion so it's not a problem for me there...

ppl should be allowed to marry whoever they want

There will always be people that disapprove of same sex marriage...

personally I can care less about those people that think it is wrong...

Everyone has a right to their own opinions...and I will respect that

Straight people have no idea how hard it is to be homosexual in the United States--I should know since I am gay

Gay people should have the same rights as straight people--enough said

ofc they should have the same rights

Well, it seems this is settled, any more contenders to the matter ?

the reson straight ppl have a problem with it is because they don't understand and because it's not normal, and if your not normal i.e. retarded, disabled, geeky, nerdy, weird, religious... your aren't really accepted, but being gay is of the worst in this society.

i'm a contender

ppl who think other ppl should be 'normal' usualy are ignorant ppl no offence TF

ppl are indeed scared of what they don't understand, it's called ignorance

U mean worst than being a psychotic kiler ?

you said being gay is not normal,
now with that list of "retarded, disabled, geeky, nerdy, weird, religious" that are examples of not normal,
I suggest you think twice before you post, cause there will be people gay or not who will be VERY offended by this, myself included!

I still think that it would have to go through "phases" like I mentioned in my previous post - i.e. the "contract" or "union" for financial purposes before same-sex marriage would eventually become the term used in the US. It's just the mindset that so many people have about marriage that isn't easy to change quickly. There are plenty of people who support the idea, but if they want the opposers to back down, they may have to do this in phases. I'm not saying that's how it should or shoudn't be. I'm just suggesting that it may be the only way to make it happen. Does that make sense?

Im straight and i think gay people have their rights, i mean..they are people too so they should have the same marriage rights as any plain heterosexual couple should have. Gay people do not bother me, whatsoever, i actually have some gay friends, and i treat them normally and not as if they are some freaks.

Yes it does..

it shows that a lot of people are very mindset about a stupid word

It seems that way, but coming from a very "churchy" background, I can sort of understand why the word carries that meaning to some people. A lot of what we call "progress" in our society in the U.S. has been dismantling ideas that were set in place by religion. I'm trying to avoid a "religious" discussion here, but it's difficult to do when it is so entrenched in the U.S.'s society. A lot of what religion has held on to has been very wrong and very suppressive, but I don't disagree with everything that religion says - just a lot of it! I believe that religion and "relationship" (with God & others) are two very different things. To me religion is about suppression and control, while relationship is about love, grace and freedom. I've been trying to see things through that mindset rather than the rigid religious mindset that I grew up under. I'm sorry if this post is going too far in the direction of religion & politics, but I'm afraid those are the very forces that cause there to even be a debate on the issue of same-sex marriage among lots of other issues.

last time I checked muslims and jews (just to name two) are allowed to use the word "marriage" too, why them, why not other-oriented?

Well, I think Christians would see that as the same thing. Still the same institution by God between a man and a woman. I think the issue with the Christian term marriage has to do with gender - not the particular religion or faith. I'm not attempting to say that this view is right or wrong - just trying to explain what's up with the mindset in the U.S.

no offence to any gays or homosexual or w/e, but it's a little on the "eww" side from me, but i'm cool with them

This'll be closed, mark my words....I had a thread with the same question, and it got closed

Anyway, Same Sex marriage should be lawful and right. Because there is NO (I repeat, NO) reasonable arugment against it.

Go ahead, try and contradict me. I have the answer to every question this topic has to offer

This was an ABC poll. I know the polls aren't always right, but it seems that there is definite disagreement in this country about this issue. (sorry - this didn't copy & paste so well!)

Views of same-sex marriage
Legal Illegal Amend Constitution Leave to the States
All 41% 55 38 58
Men 38 59 39 58
Women 45 51 38 59

18-29 55 42 32 67
65+ 21 75 44 50

Democrats 50 46 35 61
Independents 47 50 38 60
Republicans 24 72 43 52

Liberal 69 27 28 67
Moderate 44 52 30 68
Conservative 20 77 55 42

White Protestants:
Evangelical 17 81 58 38
Non-evangcl 42 55 30 67
No religion 66 26 19 78

East 48 46 36 63
Midwest 40 56 42 53
South 35 63 42 55
West 49 48 30 66

Married 35 61 41 55
Not Married 49 48 36 62

do San Fransisco have a poll on their own

If they did, I'm sure it would reflect a different mindset.

when i made that list i meant to put "etc." also i was making a statement and giving examples, of what i know wasn't normal or what other ppl told me wasn't normal, it wasn't meant to offend anyone.

What would oyu say was not normal?

sorry, the way you placed it made be believe you ment that being gay is , misunderstood ya

look at the title of the topic...
i'm a contender, because i have thought that disagree with someonelses

well on the account of murder, then yes being a psychotic killer is worse, but then again this is just my opinion

lol, no that's not what i meant sorry for the confusion yerss

i would contradict you, but without the Bible, then there is NO reason to be agianst same sex marriages, becuase the only thing to say would be "Oh that's just nasty". Therefore nobody else could be against it, properly.

Exactly. And America is built on the ideals of the separation of church and state, so religion has NO power in this argument

Well america was built on religion, until ppl lost the faith and decided to party, drink, drug, and think their own way. Anyways, if the person that you are debating doesn't believe the Bible to be true, then you'll have to dodge the topic that you are on, tell them how th e Bible is true then start your argument all over again. It's just something that takes a long time.

juli care to gimme the site from where you got that, seems interesting.

careful about religion

sorry fire

im totaly fine with same sex marriges (just as long as the two me or women like each other enough)

np TF

and it clearly changed in all those years:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

and btw, party-drink-drugs-etc. was already common BEFORE christianity and later on too, that's no reason

but it wasn't as common, as the world steps farther away from religion there will be more to come.

bullocks, were you there or something??

Alexander the Great drank a lot, ie
(forgot the name at the moment, Greek philosopher), cut off the heads of every statue he could find while being drunk...

I have no problem with it. It's a person's personal choice, and just today in Religion we were discussing this. No one can tell another person who to like, it happens, so everyone should have the same choice available to them.

that was then, this is now, i mean who doesn't get drunk or take drugs or make bad choices? All i'm saying is that it has become more popular, because the saying is "If it feel good than do it." But alot of those feel good things, come along with consequences, and then again some do not.

Especially drugs, but now back on topic...

yeah, but you said "america was built on religion", I gave two examples to show that drinking and all that joins that group was already common BEFORE america was rediscovered in 1492.

and to think that now almost everyon is drinking/doing drugs/... is naive imho

but i don't get what your trying to say, other than that ppl got drunk

well then i must know alot of the few

depends on the country mostly

aye, free tequila j/k

my thoughts...

{Edited}...to put a law that says you cannot commit to the single person who you really want to commit to is stupid. why is this even an issue with the judicial system? this is a problem in morality. the bible says it's wrong... okay, fine. but what does your heart say? the though of homosexuality is scary to some people due to the fact that it is alien to them. if two women wanna get married, let it be. the legal system is flawed... it may dictate the way we live, but it cannot dictate the way we love. no law of man can change that fact.

What are you going to do about it?
Have me banned?
Go ahead...

Nope...

SPAM REMOVED

Calm down The_Inevitable, dont ruin this thread for everyone!

I didn't say anything bad I don't know why they removed it.
All I had was a link to a site.

Tex is a mod and That is spam that you posted

now i don't know what ppl said

Oops! Sorry. I usually post the link when I copy/paste stuff like that. It's
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Relationships/same_sex_marriage_poll_040121.html.
You'll be able to read the poll results a lot easier on the original site, too.

For some reason, it doesn't show the entire link when I hit submit. Try copy & pasting the following line into your browser to get to the site. Sorry!!!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Relationships/same_sex_marriage_poll_040121.html

Finally! It took me several edits to get that last post right. Whew! If you really want to view the poll, though, that is the correct link. You just have to copy & paste it.

I've just removed the last few posts. Please keep this civilised or it'll have to be closed.

Ok then. Well what if I want to marry a dog? Or 3 women? Are you not going to let me? It's discrimination!

the dog has no way of cocenting but if you wanted to marry 3 women then i would suggest thet you just live with them the point of marrage is mnoggamy and love to person if that person is of the same sex does it matter ?

well marrying a dog is just basically beastality and marrying 3 women will be to much of a hassle, which means you made a BAD choice

well A) it is his choice to marry 3 women, if they agree with it ofc, in most countries it is against the law.
As for marrying a dog, well he can't agree with it so that doesn't count and I think it's illegal

If I actually wanted to marry 3 women or a dog or whatever and you wouldn't let me. I could say that is discrimination couldn't I?

You cant marry a dog in the same way you cant marry a car, or a rock or a child or someone who was asleep, they cant consent to it.

if you want to marry 3 women you should become a Muslim, Muslim men can have 4 wives as long as they can prove they love them all & can provide for them all equally.

go right ahead and marry 3 woman and a dog see if i cair just dont mone when you get arrested for biggomy and bestiality

the reason some ppl descriminate against your choice is becuase they probably think that i's a bad choice to MARRY 3 women and/or a dog.

Since everyone is so quick to scream 'discrimination', the same is happening to Christians all over the world for their religious beliefs. So it goes both ways.

Sure people can have feelings for someone of the same sex as others would for someone of the opposite sex. The question is whether it is right or not.

As for this argument, there really isn't much of one when you take God out of it. If you take God out of everything, then you're left with everyone becoming their own gods, each determining themselves what is right and wrong, acceptable and not acceptable. In that case, what right does one person have to say to another that what they're doing is wrong, whether it's marrying someone of the same sex, or murdering someone, or stealing, etc.

right or not??? WTF

who defines what is right and what is not???
and god has nothing to do with marriage why should he.
since when does religion define ethics?

and there is a serious difference between saying that stealing or murder is wrong and saying that same sex marriages are wrong

Indeed. Name one thing that is seriously wrong with gay marriage. No wait, I can list the only things that people say right here

"It's not right": GET USED TO IT!
"They get AIDS...": You can get AIDS from anybody

Those are the only arguments I've ever heard

dang this religion rule but i'm gonna disobey it anyway...

God defines what i right and wrong, and he gave us a decision to choose one or the other, in God's eyes homosexuality is a sin, and sins are very pleasing to God, God also designed marraige to be between a man and a woman, that's why I argue because i know that same sex marriages are wrong.

Moral ethics come from the Bible

what's the difference in saying that stealing a murdering are wrong, but homosexuality is just ok?
There both sins in God's eyes

Sorry about the "religious" info

Exactly my point, you take God out of it then who is to say what is right and wrong? Like you said, who defines it? We're asking the same question.
Why do you say God has nothing to do with marriage? I'm interested in hearing your point of view on this.
If you don't have any religious principles for moral structure, then you're left to define your own ethics.

I was using extreme scenarios in my last comment. My point is, without God, we're left to follow our own ethics. In that case, what right does one person have over another to say their ethics are the right ones? One person may not think it's wrong to steal, and another does say it's wrong. Again it comes down to your question of who defines it, and by what authority over the other individual?

amen!

who defines ethics: ethics are based on common sense most of the time.
ususaly the majority of ppl agree with the moral rules made in a society, like the forbidding of murder which you will find in almost any group of people no matter how small. same goes for stealing and so forth.

in modern day to define what is wrong and what is right the politicians (who actualy define our ethics these days) look at what will harm other ppl, the freedom of one person ends where that of another begins.
actions that hurt or damage other ppl in a way are usualy found unethical. some ethical debates are a lot harder and are there for discussed by groups of ppl who are usualy elected by the public to do so.
Ergo in a democracy, atleast in belgium, the majority of ppl decides what is considered wrong and what is considered right.

i am very glad that religion is almost completely ruled out because I don't see why we should force ethics on ppl without atleast giving them a more solid reason than: "because god wants it that way"


as for marriage without god, why the hell should marriage be about religion, for me marriage has NOTHING to do with religion it is a commitment I want to make to Storm. I am proud of this commitment and I would like the world to know this. what god things of it is something I really do not care about.

well it is not because some ppl believe that they have to force they're moral and ethical believes upon others just because it says so in the bible.

and i'd cool down on the religion now or this will get closed

Tazman and the Force need to grow up. You're brainwashed little sheep that can't think for yourselves. You're not playing an RPG, you're living a human life, which means you can't count on a book to call the shots. Ugh, why bother... clearly you children aren't going to reject your programming now. Bigoted, brainwashed punks. Is it called "discrimination" when you're simply pointing out the obvious-- that people in a free society don't live life according to an ancient book of historical fiction? You're slaves, and that's what you deserve, since you're the ones letting it happen.

What is the source of common sense?
Where did people get the idea that murder, stealing, etc was wrong?
Who established the idea of having a group of people govern over the majority? What makes the majority agree what's right and wrong? Who says harming people is wrong? What makes it wrong? If it's common sense, see first question.

As far as offering a more solid reason than: "because God wants it that way." If you read why God established his 'Laws' in the Bible, you'd see that it's for our benefit, not for some power trip or to annoy us.

Sorry you don't care what God thinks of your wanting to marry Storm, but congrats on the future occasion. How long have you known Storm?

I find it disgusting and they shouldnt allow it i have many reasons but dont feel like arguing because I gurentte i wil if someone disagrees with me

You don't have any better answer for those questions than anyone else. You have no proof of any of that. The Bible is not proof of anything, it is simply a book written long before any current witnesses could have lived. Grow up.

There is no logical reason why gays shouldn't marry, barring specific personal cases. Some people shouldn't be married, but that's not based on which sex with which they choose to get it on. The human species is not going to die out. This planet is over-crowded as it is. 10% of people are gay. They are no threat to you, so stop being a baby. Only a pansy-ass is afraid of gays being their equals-- and self-hating closet-cases in denial. Hide behind your dusty book. See how good that makes you feel when someday, you just might have a spark of empathy come on you and you realize that you're in favor of depriving others of a comfort and right to which you have free access. You just keep thinking you're a good person because "God said so." You're not using logic, and you're not using compassion. You're a pawn of cowardly, panicky, hateful people. You know, I really hate wearing wool--it's too hot and scratchy-- but you seem just right in it.

I understand where your views are coming from, being that I used to think that way about Christians also. Since then, I've made the choice to find out what it was all about and made my decision based upon the two experiences. Brainwashed? No my friend, I made the choice to believe. Bigoted? Nope, it's not for me to decide who's wrong or right. Punk? I hope I never gave that impression, if I did I apologize.

But what you're not seeing is that I'm actually making an argument for your view. Cause what I'm saying is, you take the aspect of God out of it, then there is no legitimate agrument as to why it's wrong. Then you're left with peoples oppinions and you can argue those till we're all blue in the face. So without God, there is nothing wrong with it.

Society is pulling away from that 'ancient book' as you call it. But still most of the laws we have today come from that 'ancient book'.

And if I'm a slave to an ancient book that teaches you shouldn't kill, steal, dishonor your parents, to love others, help the poor, etc. then yeah that's what I am, a slave. I have nothing against you or Fire personally, I hope you see that.

well then i'm a slave for Christ, i was going to say pretty much the same thing like tazman was

Oooh, you are good. You're the real deal, ain'tcha? You're a pure-bred cultist zombie, not just a half-assed church-going *******. You did what the heavy-weight sheep do: when responding to hatred, you send back love. You forgive, you complement, you ameliorate. Now I feel awfully special.
The last time this happened, the freaks were at my door soliciting their nonsense, and it terrified me. The eerie grins, the clone-ish look of the two zombies, the meaningless ideas they were ready to unload on me. I slammed the door the first time without hearing them speak word one, because I was tired, unprepared for such evil, and I wanted to get back to my video game. The next week, these scumbags came back. Soliciting in my building is illegal, and I told them so. One of them denied that he was soliciting and I cut him off once more to promise him that if they ever came to my home again, there would be consequences. As I closed the door, one of the zombies said "I love you", and he wasn't talking to his fellow cult member. I felt funny for hours afterward, and I was actually a little disappointed that they didn't come back. I guess I just don't get enough satisfaction ridding the apartment of cockroaches, I needed something bigger.
Anyway, the point is, you're a slave. I don't kill, I don't steal, and I didn't read your damn scripture. As for the other commandments or lessons or whatever you mentioned, that's slave talk. Why would you love everyone indiscriminately? Does your love really mean a damn thing if it's free for all to experience. You're a ****. Your affection and compassion are meaningless because you don't have standards. You've done the lazy thing and given up the responsibility for judgment (of your own decisions and other people) to God. Lazy **** slave sheep. Help the poor? You mean, give your money to strangers who claim they will give it to the needy? Child. You assume all poor people deserve help? You assume all rich people need guidance? You assume all middle-class people are assholes? What the hell can an opinion from someone like you matter? Don't dishonor your parents? Does that apply to children of pedophiles? Oh, that's right, they will be rewarded for their suffering in the sweet hereafter if they just turn the other cheek. Blind obedience is for the weak. I thought meekness wasn't supposed to be weakness, or so I heard on the Bible channel one boring afternoon. But every time I talk to one of you people, you prove that wrong.
"Take out God, and all you have is people's opinions." Welcome to second grade, sport! That's how it is. Might makes right in the end. It would be nice if the mighty were nice, but as long as the church has power, all that niceness will be fake. Do you assume "might makes right" is a heartless way to look at the world? If you do, grow up. It actually supports the golden rule-- the only thing worth taking to heart from the Bible. Of course, the Bible isn't the source of that, and neither is religious. Humans can reason and use logic. Cats, dogs, and even sheep (not you, the smart kind) can do this, too, to an extent. That's a newsflash for those uneducated enough to believe that humans aren't part of the animal kingdom. A dog learns not to do certain things if you punish him for it, and he learns how to gain your favor. My cat doesn't go in the bathroom if he knows I'm around, because I wield a mighty spray bottle. Humans, too, can learn to be good to the people with which they interact and not attract their ire. Is this making sense to you, yet, Bible-boy? You increase your chances of receiving goodness if you give it, both because some people already believe in reciprocity and because others will mimic their fellow humans in behavior. You increase your chances of receiving badness by putting it out their. The Golden Rule is a survival tactic that needs no God to take credit for it. It's evolution. Oh, wait, you probably don't believe in that. If that's true, it's the explanation for why you haven't evolved. The Golden Rule is common sense is logic is the way we came to have the laws we have. Religion is not the source--it's merely a dirty coat on it. Religion exploits people who believe in the Golden Rule.
I've met moral atheists and evil Christians. I've met good-intentioned Christians as well, but I never respected them. You're a lost cause. You're condemning yourself to reading one book for guidance and moving in the herd to the beat of the shepherd. I have to wash my hands now just thinking about your moral platitudes.

love thy neighbour....but only if they are Heterosexual

Last few pages have been overtly religious with incidents of member bashing.

Closing before things get worse.