Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

In M1 morpheus explains that the matrix tells your mind and your mind tells your body that you have died... right... but if you beleive that the matrix isnt real, wouldn't you be able to override the matrixes programming

for example: im M1 neo recovers from death because he beleives that he is the one and therefore canot die...
and in M2 he tell the matrix to tell Trinity's mind that she has not died after being shot
therefore... why cant the others do this?

Nononono

What he says is that the body cannot live without the mind. If you die in the Matrix, your mind is destroyed, and although your body will be mostly physically ok, it will be completely brain dead.

It has nothing to do with what you do or do not believe in- your mind is being broadcast into a hostile environment where it can suffer damage, and even Neo is vulnerable to this.

In M1, Neo is 'dead' but returns to life after what some somewhere termed 'tender heart massage' by Trinity. This is not necessarily supernatural- though clearly tied into destiny- because people can clinically die and then rreturn, although that has more to do with us not knowing when death really 'is' than anything else. His powers as the One presumably also aid him in rejecting the 'dead' state of his Matrix body, but the point is that once he is alive again, he is just fine again in the Matrix also.

With Trinity he uses his powers to a. remove the bullet from her Matrix body and b. re-start the heart of her Matrix body. Therefore Trinity simply does not truly permanently die in the Matrix and so is fine in the real world as well.

But you cannot reject Matrix death by simply not believing it.

Actually, yes you can! But it's more complex than what you are thinking

Sifer>

can you say michael popper?

michael popper. There. Now what?

I think Neo didn't stay dead because he didn't believe the bullets actually would kill him. His mind refused to die, so he didn't because the bullets are just a bunch of numbers in a computer.

And I don't get the michael popper thi... wait. Is that "the Kid"?

i agree with you sum1butno1

yeah...Michael Popper is the Kid...however, Neo didn't stay dead because he wasn't supposed to stay dead. Just like Smith...he wasn't supposed to stay dead, thus, he 'felt compelled to stay, compelled to disobey" what he thought he was supposed to do. neo finally believed when Trinity confessed her love. And that was enough to bring him back.

he felt compelled to tell the matrix that it isnt real and that he could override it and stay alive?
or am i missing the point?

No, look, you cannot just 'override the Matrix' like that; it doesn't work- so long as you are IN the Matrix, as part of its simulation, the danger of being killed is genuine. It was just 'meant to be', as was said, that he would not die at that time.

He resusscitated in the physical world and, being the One, was able to have his body appear just fine in the Matrix.

Ask yourself this: Can you disbelieve your senses?

I think it would be cool to escape death in the Matrxi, but it can't happen. Your real body would be to deterioate and your RSI would change. If u die in the real world, u die in the Matrix (most likely, but it's possible to have a mind w/o a body, maybe)

I hesitate to disagree with true Matrix luminaries like Jedi HDM , but DON'T think Neo failed to die "just because "he wasn't supposed to stay dead". He remained alive because he learned to separate his perception of events in the matrix from reality. The power of Trinity's love helped him do this (the voice in his ear saying "you can't be dead because I love you". This is what converted him fully into "The One" -- he couldn't control the Matrix until he could control himself and separate perceptions from reality.

Here is another reason that I don't believe that he was simply "fated" to live: if Neo's living was merely "fate" and he had no control, why would "Choice" be such an important theme in the trilogy? The machines keep implying that all of life is fate, but human choice, and its ability to change the expected path of events, comes up again and again and again.

I agree that this is never fully resolved -- as the Merv says (to paraphrase) we are all the sum of a bunch of chemical reactions, and clearly, machines like the Oracle could predict a lot of what happened based on an understanding of human nature and the individual humans involved. However, PREDICTING what is going to happen is different from it being "fated". I think that the movies at the end come down firmly on the side of the idea that human choice DOES influence human destiny.

BioLogos> wha...Luminaries?! wow...i must, like, glow...cool...

BTW, i wasn't saying that choice has nothing to do with it. He had to choose to accept his fate, or, rather, to accept what he was given at birth.

choi explainsnin M1 that you can disbeleive you senses... "it's called mesculine... its the only way to fly..." he says that he can totally reject reality and the disbeleif of flying to actually complete this..
If you can control the difference between the dream world (flying jumping building and super human movement) then cant you control the 'real world' the matrix is showing you? ie cant you control death if you beleive you can?

there's a difference between believing that you can jump over streets between buildings and that you can cheat death.

It's like what Morpheus said to Neo after showing him the truth, "We never free a mind after it has reached a certain age...it's dangerous and the mind has trouble letting go."

You see although after you have been freed from the matrix, you can appreciate on a conscious level that it is not real, the subconscious is more tricky. The reason is simply the amount of time people born in the matrix believed it to be real before being freed from it.

Now we are also forgetting the obvious advantage that Neo has over everybody else, which is that through his eyes all he sees is matrix code, so there is no way on any level he can believe that the matrix is real.

Unlike the rest. Rememer in M1 when Neo was riding in the car with Morpheus to see the Oracle and Neo was looking out the car window Morpheus said "remarkable isn't it."

yea thats true

Now we all agree that the freed minds can move faster, be stronger, and jump higher in the matrix because they are able to bend some rules and break others, right? So what's stopping Neo from bending the rules that say his digital self has to bleed to death or his heart has to stop? Morpheus could stop breathing in the matrix by changing his perception of the matrix, couldn't he? But logically he would definitely have to keep breathing in the real world. So is it really that different for Neo to stop needing damaged virtual organs or lost virtual blood?

there's only so much pain you can endure, only so much that you can tell yourself "It doesn't exist"...there is a point that you begin to think, maybe it DOES exist...

The whole Concept of him, not dying after he was killed was because he had a "profound attachment to the rest of his species" well actually to trinity, Trinity really had nothing to do with him living, it was him, it just looked better with trinity. but she had no real impact on him not dying. When the architecht says that "your 5 predossessors, were by design based on a similar predication.........which was ment to produce a profound attachement to the rest of your species, facilitationg the function of the one, while the others experianced this in a very general way, your experiance was far more specific, visa vie, love" presumably the others became the one because of an attachemnt to the whole of the humans, Neo became the one because of a similar attachment, visa vie Trinity, thats why he did not die.

but you are theorizing that the other ones died and came back to life, which we have no proof of...We must assume that Neo was completely different from the other ONEs in every way except the anomaly code...

A story of another "One" is in the comics. He shoots green shit from his fingers (a virus he created) and blasts agents in a flash (IF I remember correctly). Go read it, insightful

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm............ interesting

where do we find this comic and what is it called?

whatisthematrix.com

there are a bunch of comics on there...read them all.

Here's one that's out there.

No one dies in the matrix. After watching the matrix something has always bothered me. When people die in the matrix why doesn't their bodies or RSIs disappear.

The RSIs are mental projections of their digital self, if the mind is dead there should no longer be a mental projection, even if it is of a dead body. Therefore the mind is not dead it only believes that it is.

Neo's words to Trinity after she died "I know that you can still hear me."

In short the mind never dies, it only belives that it does.

Here's an idea...the matrix is programmed to keep them...if you are walking along with your best friend, lets say, and all of a sudden thugs from the hood take you two by surprise and shoot your friend. Would you be more or less calm if your friends body just disappeared after he died? while you are hysterical that your friend died, it would change everything if your friends body disappeared from right before your eyes. Thus, the matrix is programmed so that the RSI don't disappear. So people can have funerals. perform autopsies. grieve healthily. yeah, it does die. but it is left for aesthetic purposes.

just thought of another example. Michael Popper. He self-substantiated. he freed his mind without Neo or Morpheus. Thus, his mind was put back into his body. However, his family had a funeral. there had to be a body, as they knew where he died. If his mind is in his body, as it has to be for him to be alive, then what was left was not his mind, but rather, a shell, a body for his mind. it is not his mind though.

Your first paragraph was an idea I also had but then again I thought that if I were born into the matrix then if a body was to disappear on death then if the matrix was all I had ever known then I would accept that as normal.

Your second paragraph however I had not thought about at all, very good thinking. For this I would say that follow the sequence of events. Popper was dead and buried in the matrix before we see him in on the ship of the Neb. I know that it may seem arrogant but I stil think that I'm right.

I'm not sure how the sequence of burial before Michael waking up either helps or hurts either of our theories...

Numo>> In short the mind never dies, it only belives that it does.

if the mind indeed thinks its dead, it will stop sending signals to your heart, lungs and other vital organs. when that happens everything stops functioning. your blood has stopped circulating, your lungs stopped breathing and oxygen is gone. the mind doesn't think its dead, it is already dead.

shake zula> good point...

There is a difference between mind and brain.

Yes...and no.

The mind is housed in the brain, and although the mind is more ethereal, your brain being alive or dead controls whether your mind is alive or dead. If your brain is dead, then your mind is dead, it doesn't just 'think' it is dead.

There is fiction in your truth, and there is truth in your fiction.

If the mind is ethereal then it cannot die. That is why some cultures believe in an afterlife or reincarnation.

And although we may agree on the existence of mind, where it is housed is open to speculation at best.

Now we're getting into the realm of a person's spirit...

You see personally I believe that it is all the same thing but different people call it different things, mind, spirit, soul, that part of ourselves we believe to exist but is not physical as we know it.

well, i have reasons why they are seperated but as that mutates this thread into the realm of religious discussion, i will not iterate them here.

Go on, you know you want to.

A difference between mind and spirit yes I think you are right, read Genesis 6:4.

I've been meditating on this for some time and now I think that I have got it.

The answer is in when the Logos flown by Trinity was flying to machine City and you see the fields where the babies are grown, glowing from the Source.

If you are hooked up to the matrix and die in it, you wake up in the real world. It is when you are flushed from your pod that you drown because your muscles have atrophied so you can't swim and your body eventually reaches the processing plant where the body is then liquified to feed the living.

Except in Neo's case as with Karl Popper they were watching for his body and intercepted it in time.