Neo is not supposed to be like Jesus?
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I think there are a lot of aspects in The Matrix that have Religious connotation ... so this is an oportunity to discuss them
The first thing I noticed are the names ... I think about all the names in the films are in the Bible or have a religious meaning
Secondly in the Nebuchadnezzar, over the name it is ritten :"Mark III 11"
The Bible at Mark 3:11 - "Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God."
The names are also biblical references. Some have no significant meaning EX:Cain and Abel the 2 werewolves. Cain and Abel are Adam and Eve's children and Abel was brutally murdered by Cain. It doesnt really mean anything.
Merovingian is the name of a European Dynasty if recall its was supposed that it derived from jesus and mary magdalen... which is a lot like Neo and Trinity... even the two names together have a religious meaning..
New Holy Three..
You can also see a picture of Last Supper on a souvenir stall next to a purple Buddha.
dwell in what i have written, for my written word is all you need to know
Yeah they were the Merovingian Kings from the land of Frank
Now known as France. They where, as you said, supposedly the descendants of Christ. They also took part in the Crusades.
This would explain his accent and why it is his favourite but I am guessing it has something to do with his "purpose".
Well the entire movie in someway follows the life of jesus.
I wont try to list them all here.. but do a little searching and im sure you will find a lot
Indeed it does. Not to mention the Armageddon references etc. Lot's and Lots...the Wachowski's must have the most time on their hands hehe
Either that or just trying to subconciously brainwash us
It wouldn't surprise me to be honest. The amount of subliminal messages in both films are astonishing. Particularly the 1st after seeing the 2nd. No doubt the 2nd will be the same when the 3rd is released.
to say the least.. the third will be interesting.
I heard somewhere, possibly on these fourms that the W bros. said the Neo was never intended to be like Jesus. This to me is the biggest load of crap that I have heard, If you look at the signes, its impossible to deny that Neo, though he wasent "Jesus" he was supposed to imbody that sort of role. Perhaps even more so, then simply imbodiy it. I think that the W. Bros were lying about Neo not being like Jesus, and that they never intended him to be like jesus. Look at the evidence.
1. Neo was killed and Resurected with great power, like Jesus
2. Neo has the ability to "heal" the dead, (Trinity) like Jesus
3. He is referred to numorus times in the movies as a Messiah, and a saviour
4. He gives his life for the lives of all the people (and machienes) like Jesus
5. When he dies (presumably he dies at the end of revolutions) he dies in the same position as Jesus did on the cross
6. When he dies, right after, Duses Ex Mechina says "it is done" this is the same as when Jesus is killed on the cross (i dont remember who says it) but they say "it is done" after they kill Jesus.
I'm sure that i missed some but you get the point, there is no way that the W. Bros did not intend for Neo to be like Jesus, its impossible, and it annoys me when people say things like that.
I know that Neo is not supposed to be "Jesus" exactaly, however you cannot deny that it was at least intended for Neo to portray the same sort of idea....
you know i really thought that the idea of jesus was embodied in neo...i even had those two pictures of jesus and neo compared and they seemed alot alike in some cases (the part where neo entered the door in the end of reloaded)
Neo is a Messianic figure
where did you hear that?
oh...we heared it over the radio
God the Father says "It is done"...
But Neo was never meant to not be Jesus, or a Jesus figure...Like we have stated before, the Bros. encorporated quite a bit of religion into the Matrix, and Christianity is there as well. You probably heard that 'Neo is not Jesus' implying that, while he may be similar to Jesus in many aspects, such as those iterated above, he is Not Jesus.
OMEGA!!!! you're hardly on anymore...of course, i have no room to talk, so...
anywho, back to the topic at hand...
don't forget that, had it been just Christian, then Cypher woulda killed himself, rather than Tank killing him.
Neo wouldn't have loved a woman.
You have Persephone being married to 'Hades' (the Merv) and living with him in "Hades". This is Ancient Greek/Roman.
A hero must 'venture through Hell to retrieve their Love (Trinity). This is ancient Greek/roman.
One must leave behind their old life and live for the higher purpose. Judeo-Christian/Islam
Like Omega said, there are many more that have not been listed here, and there are probably some we haven't even seen yet...
yes i know all this, but you cannot deny that he was supposed to "imbody the same likeness"
i have seen several other movies and anime where the chosen dies, comes back, supposedly died, and returns. In fact one particular anime is very closely realted to the Matrix, called Casshan: Robot Hunter. The premise is the same that the machines have taken over and enslaved humanity, but not in a matrix enviroment, instead they use whips, and guns and such. There is a prophecy of one who will appear and destroy the main machine guy and save the humans. It is Casshan, who is actually and literally half human/half machine. He takes out tons of robots, and fights the main leader called the Black King. There are literally tons of similiarities that i can get into some other time.
He also 'embodies the same likeness' as Buddha...or Gandhi(sp?), or Muhammed, or...what's your point?
I think that he was supposed to be like Jesus, but the Bros I think tried not only to in someways illustrate the origins of Christianity (Judaism, Greek mythology) but also not to put Christianity above all other religions.
if he was supposed to be like Jesus, then that automatically places Christianity above other religions. Either one or the other. Either he is just similar to Jesus in the same way that he is similar to Buddha or Muhammed, or they are saying Christianity is more important.
But depending on what religious teaching you follow or are sympathic to, will determine which religion you identify in the trilogy more or first.
I Do still think that he was intended to be more like Jesus, as opposed to any other Saviour, saint, or whatever they may be...the "coincidences" are to blatantly obvious to deny this..........
It is true that the Creator must be all things to all people, Buddha to the Buddhists, Allah to the Muslims, even non-existent to the atheists.
Even though the Architect existed, how many people in the matrix apart from Neo and the Oracle KNEW of his existence.
What are the Wachowskis, anyways? Atheists?
There was another religion I heard people thought they might be... don't remember what it was called... had something to do with using elements of all the major religions or something. Anyone know?
I suddenly wondered why the defence of Zion (Neo, Morpheus, Trinity etc.) are all dressed in black (leather) once they are plugged in the matrix.
Is that also a reference to something religious?
Forgot one (maybe important) thing.
Niobe is, as far as I can see, the only one dressed in red leather instead of black.
There's already a post just like this. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f42/t291102.html
actually...technically, this one was first...but we won't go technically...
i think it is just a personal preference, a way to stand apart from the crowd...besides, they are the only ones that can get away with it, seeing as how leather can't chafe what isn't real...
i do listen to ur reasoning..however....i do agree that he is not "jesus" and that there other religious references to Neo, however..i think that he is predominately more like jesus then any others...thats just me though
I don't think I've ever heard of that religion. What is it?
Did you know that Nebuchadnezzar was the asiro-babylonian king that FREED the hebreu people .... this is maybe the purpose of the hovercraft's name ... to free them ....
Also Seraph ... seraphims are the highest kind of angels (besides archangels) .. holly protectors: "I guard that which matters most"
I am more interested however in the history of the Merovingian ... I couldn't find much on the internet ...
Update to the above (if Lordnikon doesn't mind
Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Babylon.
Morpheus was/is the God of dreams. I think that has something to do with the following line of Morpheus when the Nebuchadnezzar is blown apart.
"I had a dream, but now that dream is gone for me"
Well, very likely there's also a connection there (between the God of Dreams and the King of Babylon).
Thnx for the answer on my Blach leather question.
I've done some thinking (wow!!)
If Morpheus is the king of dreams and the Nebuchadnezzar is the king of Babylon then it makes sence that Morpheus said that.
The god of dreams (Morpheus) gives Nebuchadnezzar (king of Babylon) the "assignment" to free the people of hebreu (or else: the God of dreams "uses" the king of babylon to free these people), when Morpheus is witnessing the destruction (or the death) of Nebuchadnezzar (king of Babylon) he realises that he is run out of options to free the people of hebreu and with that his "dream" is gone.
The people of hebreu are from this point of view the people of Zion.
Zion is the hill where God has gathered the "believers" in Revelations chapter 14.
"Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."
If anyone is interested in the book of revelations just send me an email [email protected]
Well, thats all for now.
The is also the most obvious reference to religion in the third film.
When Neo is in the heart of machine city, he gets jacked in. Notice he looks a lot like Christ when Christ was crucified. Arms spred out, etc. Not only that, but he sacrafices himself to save the rest.
Do not forget that King Nebuchadnezzar was given a dream that no man could interpret, but Daniel. Daniel recieved a vision from God, which was the dream given to the King. Nebuchadnezzar also 'saw the writing on the wall'. And yes, he allowed the 'chosen people' to be freed.
I heard that Neo is suppose to be jusus.........if you have said this above dont blaim me i havnt read it.
well...the merovingians were a highly powerful and wealthy family in france in like the 14th century i believe...sumthin like that...anyways they founded paris (i beilive thsi is y he's french...)
um...theres a religious meaning too..sumthin to do directly w/God and them...but i forgot exactly what it is
as was said before, the Merovingians said they were direct descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene...and Neo is not supposed to be like Jesus, although there are similarities, there are also vast differences and we have discussed this before.
Neo being the Christ and Smith the Antichrist right ...? This can also be interpreted ....
Well, Neo and Smith were opposites. It would only make sense if you interpret Neo as Christ.
The religious side of The Matrix is the worst side. It's real lame to watch all the extremely obvious messages inbedded in the films.
and here is our resident Matrix-basher...welcome back, BF...
but neo has black hair not brown..and he dosnt have scars on his rists..
what does that have to do with it?
In some ways I can see the argument for Neo not supposed to be Jesus. I mean if he were Jesus then we would have to explain the five predecessors part.
But here is another question then. If he is not supposed to be Jesus then who else does Neo remind you of?
This is not a rhetorical question, I want answers.
Six versions of the Matrix and the world was created in six days. Coincidence?
And as far as I know, there was not an agent that made him wear a crown of thorns either, but we are using symbolism here.
You must bear in mind that if, on his way to the machine city, Neo was carrying a giant cross, God could have sued the W. Brothers for plagerism.
Neo reminds me of Neo. As i have stated before, yes, there are similarities between Neo and Jesus. However, there are also immense differences which cannot be ignored. Neo is a concatenation of all 'Messiahs' throughout every religion, and we cannot just forget that. neo is the 'Enlightened one'. He is the 'Conquering Warrior', the 'Suffering Servant'. He is the one whom everyone can look at and say, 'now he reminds me of so-and-so', the one everyone can look up to. Saying Neo is Jesus is blatantly disregarding the facts.
Yeah ... However ... You can relate the last supper with a scene in the movie ...
... remember in the first Matrix movie when Neo talked to Cypher on the Neb ... they had a drink togheder ... now remember Jesus' Last Supper .. where he gave to the trator a piece of bread (or in the christian catholic religion a glass of wine) ...
...Now remember the smile on Cypher's face when he was jacked it the matrix and the hell started (after they went to the Oracle) .. this can be the Kiss of treason gave bu Juda when he had to identify Jesus for the guards
just browsing through some threads and this one popped up:
just to clarify, the Merovingians were a dynasty which started already in 496 when Clovis got baptised and ended in 751 when Childerik II was placed in a monastery by Pipin III the short (dunno the english name so I took a guess), that's not the 14 century realworlddreams
to me, all this talk is just hugely overanalysing, but heck, that's not the subject nor worth discussing since it's a private view
but anyway, saying that the Merovingians claimed they descended from God, that's wrong, they traditionaly boost that they either come from Noah, Abraham or Adam.
and it was "tradition" in that time to say such things.
Cassiodurs did it for the Ostrogoths, Isidorus of Seville for the Visigoths, etc.
actually Niobe isnt the only one not dressed in black, in the first movie we had Switch who was dressed in white, then in the second Tirant who was dressed in red during hte meeting at the start, Ghost was also dressed in white(the motorway chase), and im sure there are a few others im forgetting
i just thought about this right now... stigmatas. stigmatas are the wounds of christ experienced by a man or woman. miracle? no. mental? yes. most of the wounds on the stigmatic people followed the pattern of a particular painting/ picture or sculpture that they have seen. studies have shown that the mind can indeed inflict wounds on the body without physically experiencing it. for one instance, a blind folded experiment volunteer was told that she was gonna be touched by a searing hot iron. she was touched with only a mildly warm iron but burn marks started showing on her arm.
now, flashback to neo's first jump...
neo- *puts fingers in mouth, finds blood* i thought this wasn't real...
morpheus- your mind makes it real.
You know thinking about the trilogy, I'm reminded of the film Tron. Does anyone see similarities?
If anyone hasn't seen Tron you should, then tell me what you think.
ur logic is flawed.......I do recognize that Neo, is Neo, and not "jesus" thats not the point that im trying to make, and i also agree that there are more persons in which he is supposed to symbolize.....and u said that "Saying Neo is Jesus is blatantly disregarding the facts." is flawed. as i said I DO agree that he symbolizes alot of things, however, there are more points to wards the realization that he is predominately supposed to be more like jesus. I would also like to point out that im not saying that he is jesus, and i think that u people become irrational and say the "NO HE IS NOT JESUS" but perhaps i should rephrase what i mean, Neo's story is pretty damn close to Jesus's story......and to deny that is a "blatant disregard of the facts."
how is his life like Jesus'? He was not born of a virgin, did not spend his childhood hiding from the king who wanted him dead, he did not 'walk the earth' at age 30, he did not have 12 disciples, he did not perform miracles (except for bringing Trinity back to life), he loved a woman, he had intercourse, he was not a servant of anyone, he fought the system rather than accept it...yes, he sacrificed himself to save humanity, he 'flew', and he died with a cross, but i see more contradictions that similarities...i am not blatantly disregarding the facts, i think the facts speak for themselves...
ahhhhhhh.....i give up on u people......perhaps u should look at the overall story, not the pithy little details, but that is a thing that alot of people do lack, being able to see the whole picture, but hay what do i know, Jedi is god and knows all, right???
i AM looking at the whole story, and the 'pithy' little details help to give the story more depth...if you think i am wrong, explain why, don't just say i am...
...besides, who died and made me God?
wow, I never knew the matrix had biblical references.
The story of Jesus was set two thousand years ago, the story of Neo was set somewhere in the future.
Now, people who believe Jesus existed, may or not believe that he will return again and may see Neo as the Second Coming of Christ.
Now, although both your agruments have merit you are missing a fundamental point the clue of which is in the problem of the five predecessors.
In matrix terms Jesus would probably be one of those predecessors, and the term - the One- comes from the title (not name) Anointed One or Christ, so my question to you both to consider is although there has only been one Jesus and one Neo, has there been more than one Christ?
Yes, i once had this same idea, however, i dont think that it marrets any real credibility because of the time line...jesus was alive well..in the past....the matrix is based on 21st century human history not before that...although it has never been seen i dont think that the matrix "progressed" like the real history did..it has always been in the 21st century, and every time is reloads it starts at the 21st century not in the past..thus i dont think that it feasible to say that jesus (in matrix terms) was a former one.
also, there have been only 8 predications, two of which were very short lived...so, thats 600 years and maybe 2-5 years for each of the first two, which would put us at about 500 years before the turn of the millenium, if it progressed through time like you say. there might be gallileo, but not Jesus. Also, Smith said it was designed to be at the 'peak of your civilization' which makes me think that it really doesn't have a similarity to real life time...it would be starting at about 1990 perhaps, and move forward everytime.
i agree with u on this, Jedi.....it is not logical to say that jesus is a former one...the point has been made :y:
...lol...used to MSN lingo
hay..that gives me a good idea for a post!!!!!
please see new threads
What I love the most about this post like alot of your posts is that whereas most know that any theory spouted on this forum is exactly that, theory until the Wachi bros explain their thinking, i sometimes get the impression yours are not... 8 predications, two of which were short lived, 500 years before the turn of the century. I love to know where you get all this from.
You missing my point. If you believe that Neo was supposed to be like Jesus then you must also believe that he had five preedecessors, yes or no?
hmm...let me see...oh, wait, that's right...the Architect.
"I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 6th version...The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being...As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."
here we see there are two 'test' matrices, v1 and v2. then there is the third, designed with the help of the Oracle, but which produces anomaly's. there were five before, and Neo is the sixth. if we are to assume that the process of the anomaly takes roughly the same amount of time each iteration, then there are approxiamately 100 years for each iteration, as we learn from Morpheus. as the first two were frustated by failure, because people wouldn't believe in it, i am to assume they each took a relatively short amount of time, thus my 2-5 years. I am probably overguessing with that number, but it will do for our purposes. That leave 8 iteration, with approximately 600 years before the end of Revolutions as the beginning, and since Neo believe it to be ~1999 in the movies, that would place them, if they didn't live in a perpetual present, starting sometime around 1400-1500 AD. if they do live in a perpetual present, as one of the comics makes me think, then each time the matrix is restarted, it is moved back in time, which would put us starting at approximately 1900, or even later. and if their world doesn't progress technologically like ours did, then we could safely assume they started off with technology similar to ours in 1990.
...so, in answer to your question, i am taking in information from a variety of Matrix sources, synthesysing the material, and packaging it for your informative needs.
..couldent have said it any better
except i dont think that they live in a "perpetual present"..i think that everytime the matrix is restarted it doesnt "move back in time" its simpyly restarted, "at the peak of our civilization".......i dont think that it goes all the way back in time to 1400-1500 AD....because that doesent make sence to what the smith says and the achitect say either...
well, i say that time is reset because of this...it is the first comic...read it. it is on the matrix website.
i know for certain we are not overanalyzing this movie, as the brothers themselves have said there are more things than we will probably ever find in these movies. And yes, we know, as i have said, and others have said, multiple times, that there are references, allusion, etc to not only literature, but to most if not all major religions today, and some from ancient times. Also, not everything has one side...many things, even in the movies, have dual or multiple meanings. I'm not being rude, but we have said this before. Thank you for your take, though. it was refreshing to see someone not caught up on 'Jesus' in the movies.
You made your point well Jedi i will give you that.
If Neo was not supposed to be like Jesus was he supposed to be like Osiris then?
well, Kwisatz Haderach, or should i call you Muad'Dib, Neo was a concatenation of many different 'Messiahs'...despite his 'affinity' towards Christ, he is similar to many others, and i'm sure Osiris could be argued for, although i do not remember him being a 'messiah'...kinda thought he was the god of the dead, but i am probably mistaken there...
Well i was hoping that in calling myself that it would arouse people's curiosity and look into or read Dune and it seems that it has happened, GREAT.
Now the reason why I said Osiris was because he was killed by his twin brother Set. After which his wife Isis found the body and, using magics, managed to have sex with the body so she could later give birth to Horus, (Osiris reincarnated). Who would wage war against Set losing an eye in the processes which he sent to Osiris in teh underworld because he complained of not being able to see down there.
Set discovering this then stole the body, cut it up into 12 pieces and scattered them through time and space. Isis would then look through time and space for each piece of her husband's body and where she found them she would set a temple (or new religion) in it's place.
Something that I forgot. Set killed Osiris because Set's wife, Nepenthys (twin sister of Isis) tricked Osiris into thinking she was Isis and slept with her, causing her to give birth to Anubis.
Both Isis and Nepenthys searched through space and time to find the various body parts of Osiris.
Now these body parts are said to be reincarnated in various people who become famous religious leaders, with Isis and Nepenthys appearing as mother and mate to the person. Who then help set up a religion after the relgious leader has died.
Example: Jesus, Mary virgin mother, and Mary Magdalene both helped spread the word of his ressurection after he died.
One last point:
It is said that the last body part of Osiris to be found (or reincarnated would be the phallus) then Osiris would be whole again.
I'm guessing that this was acheived in Neo which was one reason for the sex scene between Neo and Trinity in Reloaded (which is quite unuasal to see someone who basically is a religious figure doing) and also the meaning behind the title 'Final flight of the Osiris'.
The title 'Final Flight of the Osiris' is refering to the last mission the crew of the Osiris completed before being destroyed.
Jedi, must you always be so linear.
all three matrix films are very religous
i believe Neo is very much like jesus
especially in the first film Morpheus is very similar to john the baptist
baptising neo by showing him the real world
I don't know who agent smith is like though possibly the devil for the devil was an angel that fell from grace a bit like agent smith
also there are numbers relating to pages in the bible everywhere just look at some of the car registration plates and in the nebercunezer etc
This I had not noticed before, I shall look for them.
neo here in my past if trinity was cancer and a wemon i'd marry here in the dic it says trinity is the union od three in one like a cigarette holder the trinity
neo here in my past if trinity was cancer and a wemon i'd marry here in the dic it says trinity is the union of three in one like a cigarette holder the trinity neo remaking the matrix
what is it that ur trying to say and how come u posted thee same thing in a few threads? please don't, it's kind of aggrivating
wow this a really good discussion and i like the fact its about the bible and im really happy about how yall kno so much about it i mean i kno im only 14 but it says in the bible all u need is my word to live for eternity and i aint wantin anyone to go to hell i never want to see that lol i kno thats really corney of me. but o well i guess im jus that corney
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have ever lasting life."
John 3:16(lol yea i have it memerised)
The similarities between Neo and Jesus are that Neo and Jesus both died then woke up alive again. They have also got (As some people would say) Super powers. Neo used his powers by believing and Jesus used his powers through god. They where also both well respected. (Neo was respected by the Nebuchadnezzar crew and Jesus was respected by pretty much everyone that has heard of him except for his enemies.) Both there names are also Bible references.
Here are some Dot points.
1. Neo was killed and Resurrected like Jesus
3. He is referred to many times in the movie as a Messiah, and a saviour
4. He gives his life for the lives of all the people (and machines) like Jesus
The differences between Jesus and Neo are there styles of handling things. Jesus liked to handle situations without violence but Neo handled basically all of his problems with violence. (E.G when Neo had to kill Agent Smith, He finished him off with violence, but Jesus never used violence.) Jesus and Neo where also around at different times with different technology and in different ages.
Can you guys post some differences between them?
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