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"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things."
Words of Gandalf from The Two Towers III 5 The White
Rider

The secret and very ancient creatures that dwell in the dark depths of the world. Gandalf came upon them in the depths beneath Moria, but would say nothing of them to his companions. All we know of them is that they gnawed dark tunnels far beneath the earth, through which Gandalf escaped from the depths of the chasm beneath Khazad-dûm.

On the subject of these creatures, Gandalf says 'Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.' (The Two Towers III 5, The White Rider). Sauron is older than the World itself, so this can't be literally true, unless Gandalf means to suggest that the nameless things are Maiar (which seems rather implausible). Nonetheless, it is clear that these are very ancient creatures indeed.

Though you see...I truly never noticed what you speak of. It's amazing how easily things can just run past your when you're involved with something else.

But now that you bring it up it does prove interesting. However, I think that the 'nameless things' could be maiar. Just houseless. When Morgoth brought about vampires and werewolves and the other evils the 'nameless things' could be spirits of those. Maiar could wander without a shape or a form, even Gandalf did that and Balrogs were once fire spirits corrupted into shapes.

The nameless things could be anything, which does prove extremely intriguing.

Hey! I thought about this too! For a long time, I've been wondering what those nameless things are. Maia spirits dwelling unseen on earth and in the Dark? Or maybe even some of Morgoth's minions from before?

Hhmm..

Yes it is VERY interesting but your point about them being maiars CAN'T be true because in my text up there says that they are OLDER then Sauron and sauron is a maian spirit.ALL maian spirits are the same age and valars also...they were created in the same time....then i say could that nameless things be some sort of being that Tom Bombadil belongs to? Or is it more dreadfull that they are a sor of being that Eru belongs to-some sort of ancient gods?....then we could ask is tom bombadil eru or is he like him...the nameless thing.......Maybe Eru and Tom Bombadil are nameless things,the only ones that came out of the shadow??

Oh yes..I've read it again..and I forgot about the:



OK. Clear.

In Ainulindalë, it reads that the Valar came to Eä first and were called the Powers of the World. Manwë called for other spirits later to help to create Arda and combat the evils of Melkor.
But from the words in Valaquenta it could be inferred that the Maiar came with the Valar. Go figure...
But it is quite clear that Ainur were created before the world existed and Sauron was older than anything on earth. So most likely Gandalf meant that those nameless things were in Middle-Earth before Sauron lay his foot there in his "physical" form (the same case about Treebeard calling Gandalf "young" Master Gandalf though technically Gandalf is older than him if we're talking about way back from his existence in the West). And Sauron didn't know them for Melkor had created them with his "music" and they were only in his mind (well of course Eru knew their form).

In conclusion, just because Gandalf said that the nameless things were older than Sauron it doesn't necessarily mean that they are older than him literally, physically, and spiritually. They could all be the same age as Spirits, but Gandalf based what he said from when Sauron came to Middle-earth in his "physical form".

Go shadowy!

But now, let's figure out "who" they are and what their examples are. I mean, did we ever see any of them in LOTR? Is the Watcher one of them? Tom Bombadil? Goldberry? Yeah..I know they have names but their origins are oblivious to everyone.

Thoughts?

Gwaihir?


Shadowfax?


Treebeard himself?

Gwaihir is an eagle. Shadowfax is a meras. Treebeard is an ent. I doubt they are connecteds to the nameless thing.

From it's desciption, it sounds evil. Something that scared Gandalf to silence. It sounds like their evil dwarves, but bigger and scarier.

Also, who said all the maiar are the same age? Could it be possible that there was another wave of maiar to inhabit Arda? I am clueless as to what they could be.

I said they could be the same age. I never confirmed it. And I didn't mean same age like I'm 13, he's 13, she's 13, all of us are 13 years old. Not that literally. What I meant was they might have been brought into Arda in the same era, or decade, or century, or millenium, you choose. What I meant was not as literally as they are all of the same age with same birthdays, what I meant was that they are all older than the First Borns and the Followers.

true, so whatever our mystery dude is, it probaly came b/f Sauron

*researches*

I found this quote:


The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

Hhmm, they could be some of the Nameless Things, though the quote insinuates that these creatures are light-hearted and good-spirited (always laughing at things). After all, it wasn't really stated that all the Nameless Things are Evil, they're just not explicitly identified. I suppose the Evil ones are just the only ones who dwell in the dark sides of the world and under the earth.

Lol everything in the lost tales somehow sounds so cute


Yea, the Nameless Things also correspond with the description of the end of the War of Wrath... I couldn't find the quote I meant in the Silmarillion, but it says that many of Morgoth's nameless and greatest servants escaped after the battle and hid themselves in deep dungeons like the Balrogs also did for many millenia in fear of the Sun and the might of the Valar.

Btw, "the Nameless" was also the most common name of Sauron

i'm prety sure they came from before time....as in before the flood

so they must be balrog-like creatures, hiding in the mines for fear of the sun^exa

not so much balrog-like as evil-like *duh!*....maybee maiar but maybee not....

i stayed up all night reading stuff.....but didn't find much....

on the part about gandalf saying they are older than sauron...do you guys realy think gandalf would not know something, about this?....maybee he's mistaken...but i don't know if tolkien would have let gandalf not know something.....so to speak
maybee Tolkien Did make him unknowledgeable on some things.....so ppl like us can discuss...and blow are minds tryin' to figure it out!

Maybe he meant older than the evil Sauron - Sauron when he became Sauron, cuz before he was only a normal Maia of Aule... and hmmm I recently read something in the History where I think it said that Sauron was not made by Ilúvatar before the beginning of the world, but younger, though I can't really remember, will try to find it again... this would of course be an old and no longer valuable idea, but maybe it has something to do with it.
But I think Gandalf really meant older then Sauron as Sauron.

You make a good point.....but i'm not sure about that part where you say that they were created by melkor.Melkor had only one thing on his mind when he came to middle-earth and that is to destroy all that the valars have created.it does not say anywhere that they (the nameless things) were created by melkor.For what we know melkor has created only ne form of new being and that is orcs.

It could be refering that they are phisically older then sauron.But there is one another point.In tolkiens letters it says when gandalf visits Tom Bombadil(and we do not know the origin of tom bombadil) it says that tom bombadil has known the origin of every being on this world that has walked in middle-earth but he does not know about the nameless things.It draws many interesting questions.

The idea of Morgoth creating things could be discussed for ever and Tolkien himself also seemed to have changed his opinion quite often... especially about the origin of the orcs because Tolkien says that the Valar can't create things of their own, at least nothing with a free will and an independant life; this is especially illustrated by the history of the dwarves - Aule made their bodies, but they just did what he wanted them to do, and as soon as he didnt think of them and didnt "give them his life", the fell down motionless and unable to do anything.
... So I also doubt that Melkor could have created Nameless Things that obviously by their own will fled to the Dungeons of Hadhodrond - if they really served the will of Morgoth, they would have fought and died in the War of Wrath.

On the other hand, does it say anywhere that all of these "things" or "creatures" were evil? Somehow most of this thread is based on that suggestion, maybe because they live in the Shadows, but couldn't they also be "good"?



Indeed it does... somehow sounds like aliens lol

Hmm does it literally say "that has walked in Middleearth"? Because if it wouldnt be written by Tolkien this formulation would suggest that Gandalf fell VERY very deep until he reached Vai(ya) or the Neni Erùmear, the Seas in which the fish of Ulmo live

This is a good topic. It deserves more attention

Ok, back to the idea of Nameless Things and the Waters of the Ship of the World...

... I don't think Moria reached that deep, but isn't it really possible that some of those creatures have connections to the ancient waters below the world?

mmm.....it seemed quite deep when Gandalf fell down it in the movies which was over ex-aggerated I would think....

the nameless things, do we know what they are yet as I aint read the whole thread

Discos - AE's *bumps* to seek people not leaving

yep, I've been trying find good threads to bring back.

Anyway, what's this 'sea' your talking about, Exa?

~according to Tolkien's drawings and also his descriptions, mainly in the Ambarkanta, under the (plain, flat) earth there is a wide Sea, called Vai, Vaiya or Neni Erùmear; the earth is swimming on it, carried and held by the "words of Ilúvatar"; the oceans are just places where the earth is so thin that this water is able to reach the surface.
In other versions, this Outer Ocean isn't really water, but rather something neither liquid nor a gas like the air, and its "so thin" that only Ulmo's creatures can swim in it, and it's all around the earth in different layers above Ilmen and Vista.

I'm not exactly sure what happened to it when the world was made round after the Downfall of Númenor ~ the drawings from The Shaping Of Middle-Earth show it all around the now globe-shaped earth like in our days atmosphere, stratosphere and so on
Which kinda proves my idea nonsense that would only work if the world would still be the flat ship of old.

that's umm, confusing. My picture of ME is now shattered.

erm, I cannot totally remember the whole process, but is the sun (when it has set and making its pass through the other end of the earth again) between the sea and the underground of the earth?

Discos - now am totally confused

The Sun and the Moon are in Ilmen, the region above Vista and below Vai
Ilmen is the "place of light" and "thinner and more clear" than real air; it's also where all the stars are.
At least in the globe-shaped world of the later ages, Vai encircles all the world and the other parts of the air, seen from the earth it's "behind" the other airs like Vista and Ilmen.
Vai is "more like water" under the earth and "more like air" above it

^^
I also just wondered how that's supposed to work because there IS no Ilmen under the earth must pass through Vaiya then