Wheel of time.

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Morridini
I just wonder if there are anybody else here reading the Wheel of time series? I am very fond of the books and would like to hear what you people think about them. I couldn't find any other topics about this, but if it does then I appologice.

Morridini
Are there realy no one who have read this series?

MasterWizard
I have read books 1-7, and after I finish The Dark Half, and the Tommyknockers (by SK) I will get around to reading the last 3. I have also read the prequel.

There is another topic about this, btw, so this might get merged.

Morridini
Ok, but where is the other topic?

MasterWizard
here it is:

Wheel of Time

Lord Ryugen
Cool another Wheel of time thread. Hmm, hopes yours does better than mine. Oh by the way who's your favorite character? Mines Perrin.

Morridini
Hmm, my favourite character. Among the good guys it must be Mat, while among the bad ones it must be Moridin/Ishamael (it's obvious if you look at my nick). Yours then?

Lord Ryugen
Perrin from the good guys. And from the bad yeah probably Moridon/Ishamael, he's the the only Forsaken to det more than a few pages.

MasterWizard
Mine is Perrin, and for the bad guys, well, I don't like any of them very much.

Morridini
Which part/chapter of the series did you like the most? I realy liked the prologue in the Eye of the World, it was very well written. So how about you, any favourite chapeters?

MasterWizard
I like the prologue as well. My favorite chapter is the one where Moiraine and Co. come to the Queens Blessing inn in Caemlyn, and get Mat temporarily healed, and Rand asks of Loial can come with them. I don't know why, but that chapter stands out the most after I've read it.

My favorite fight scene was at the end of The Lord of Chaos, when all of the Asha'man come in the middle of the fight and help the good guys, while Rand is stuck in a chest.

Morridini
Yeah, that was a great fight scene. It totaly showed the power of Saidin. I realy hope the Asha'man are going to attack the White Tower in one of the following books, either with Rand or with Taim.

MasterWizard
The great thing about that scene, was that I didn't expect the Asha'man to show up. Just blew me away.

I'd rather the two sides of the power combine to make a sort of a Grey Tower or something. And there would be two rulers, the Amyrlin, and whatever Taim's title was.

Morridini
Taim's title is M'hael, and the new M'hael will probably be Logain, since Taim is a traitor. Maybe the Amyrlin and the M'hael would be bonded in some way, if the two towers merge, which I doubt.

MasterWizard
Well I was going on pure speculation, since I haven't read past book 7 yet. I don't know how things are happening by the end of book 10.

Morridini
ok, sorry if I spoiled anything for you.

MasterWizard
Don't worry about it.

Here's a way to possibly make this thread go longer. A debate. I'll start with the question, "Is Moiraine really dead?"

Other WoT readers, come on and post. It's turning into a two person thread.

Z4|<
I've only read books 1-3 and am 1/4 through book 4 but I'm planning on reading all these books after i'm done my other books im reading, I have three books on the go at once! As to the question about Moraine, I have no Idea what you're talking about.

MasterWizard
You'll find out at the end of book 5 I think it was. Or book 4. Can't quite remember.

Morridini
I think she is alive, and she will probably come back in the following book or the next. She can't be dead because of Mins viewings, which are never wrong, which said that Rand needed her to win Tar'mon'gaidon (is that how i is spelled?).

MasterWizard
I think you got it right. And she didn't "die" in the first place. She fell through th portal, with Lanfear. But that would also mean that if she didn't die, then Lanfear didn't die.

Morridini
It means that they didn't die instantly. Moiraine can have killed Lanfear after they fell through the door. It is most likely that Lanfear died since she now is Cyndane. Perhaps Perrin will save Moiraine through the tower which Slayer escaped through, when Perrin was hunting him in the Wolf dream. I think the tower is connected to the lands the Ter'angreal doors are leading to, I remember that Mat saw the tower when he was in one of the two Ter'angreal doors (I don't remember when he saw it).

MasterWizard
While I dont know everything of which you speak, would that tower also be the one that Mat seen on the boat ride from Shadar Logath(sp?) to Whitebridge?

Morridini
Yes that's thew tower I was speaking of.

Morridini
Does anybody else have something to say about Moiraine, perhaps a theory about how she will return?

ElectricBugaloo
What exactly was Min's viewing on Moiraine?

I think that Moiraine is not dead, but held prisoner in the land beyond the twisted door. I believe that either Perrin or RAnd will save her; it cannot be Mat because he has already went through the door. The only thing is, if Rand goes through the door and saves Moiraine, he must make a deal with the people beyond the door; what sort of deal will he make to save a woman? Something costly, i think.

Morridini
In A Crown of Swords chapter 35, Into the Woods, this was said:

"Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."
This tell us that Min has had a viewing about Moiraine that has not happened yet, and since she has never been wrong I doubt that she is wrong now.

And as for what deal he would make I have no clue. What would the people there want from him, music?

Lord Ryugen
Read book five again. Theres a part where Egwene is thinking about her dreaming while talking to Moraine in the Aiel Waste, one of the dreams was Thom Merrilin sticking his hand in a fire to take the blue stone that dangles on Moraine's head. It's quickly overshadowed by the more important parts of the book but it's there. So perhaps Thom saves Moraine or at least finds a way to get her back.

ElectricBugaloo
yeah, i remember that part with Min, and i searched the other books looking for what she saw...i guess he never says

Morridini
So it was Egwene who saw that about Thom. I was trying to find it so I could post it here. Looks like you beat me to it Lord Ryugen. But do you have any theory on how she will be saved? I am not sure but I think I remember something about music being important to thise creatures. And Thom is a good musician.

ElectricBugaloo
Can someone give an exact quote from the book on the Thom and Moiraine thing? I don't have the books handy/.

Morridini
In The Fires of Heaven chapter 15, What can be learned in dreams, Egwene was thinking about several dreams she had had, here is theone about Thom and Moiraine:

"while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead."

As you see it is exactly as Lord Ryugen said in his post.

Lord Ryugen
I remember Brigitte talking with Perrin in the wolf dream in Book Four. Perrin had chased Slayer to the tower Mat saw in the ter'angrel. While they were talking she mentioned something about the passage intoned whenever the game 'Snakes and Foxes' is played. I can't remember what the passage was so I'll look it up tonight, but it said that fire dazzled them and iron and/or music bound them. Mabye Thom finds a way to bind them with his harp, or scares them with fire.

Morridini
Thsi was what it said: "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind."
You can read more about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn (the names of the creatures) at this site: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.6_what-up-nondark/2.6.3_finn.html

So you don't have to get your book to look something up.

Lord Ryugen
Thanks Morridini.

Morridini
You're welcome Lord Ryugen.

ElectricBugaloo
that's a great website...

Morridini
I know. I once read through everything, but now I see that they have updated it so I will have to read the new stuff too. The Death of Asmodean text is worth a look too: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html

Lord Ryugen
You know there's something thats been confusing me. If the Forsaken have Gholam that can't be hurt by normal weapon and are immune to the One Power why wasn't it sent against Rand. Why was it sent to Ebou Dar?

Morridini
Which of the Forsaken was it that have sent out the Gholam we have seen this far? If it is Moridin then it's obvious, Moridin don't want to kill Rand, but to control him or make him join them. But if it is someone else then this is a good question.

Lord Ryugen
Exactly, and besides how many survived the breaking? If all why weren't they all released instead of 2 or 3. And another thing why in the name of god does Moridin not wnat Rand dead. Surely Tamron Gaidon (Is that how it's spelt?) would be a hell of a lot easier if the Dragon Reborn's a corpse/

Morridini
I think it is written Tarmon Gaidon.

Every man or woman can be turned over to serve the Dark One against their will when they are dead, but then they are weaker then when they were alive. So Moridin wants Rand to join him alive, not dead, so that Rand still have all his powers.

By the way do we agree that Moridin is Ishamael reborn?

Lord Ryugen
Pretty much. After all there's no one else he could be. Aran'gar and Osan'gar are Aginor and Balthemeal. Cydine's Lan fear, and barring Rhavin and Bal'el who died from Balefire, Asmodan who just died and Sammael who apparently kicked it in Shadgar Logoth, Ishamael's the only Chosen left to be brought back.

Morridini
It has been a while since I last read the books. Who did the Gholam try to get? I can only remember one meeting Mat when he was in an alley in Ebou Dar, and one licking up blood from a person Moridin sqwished.

And what about Mordeth, who now is half Mordeth and half Padan Fain, is he perhaps a gholam? He does have some of the same abillities as a Gholam. But would this mean that Fain is one third Gholam, and then imune against the One Power, if he is then he is deadlier then we ever imagined.

Lord Ryugen
I know one Gholam's going for Mat because he's got the fox ter'angrel but I'm not sure about the other. And Mordeth isn't Gholam he has some of their abilites because he was a spirit. The Gholam is a physical being

Morridini
But why would a spirits abilities be identical to a Gholams abilities? Are there perhapsa any connection? I'l see if I can find out how the Gholams were created.

Lord Ryugen
Aginor created them but that's all I know. Mordeth and The Gholam have identical abilites because of what they are. Gholams have no bones so they can stretch and thin themselves, Mordeth has no real body so he can bloat himself or go through cracks at will.

Morridini
All I can find out about the Gholams is that they were created by Aginor. It was made 6 gholams, 3 women and 3 men. They live on fresh blood and can feel the One Power and the True Power. They are immune to the OP and can detect a channeler at fifty paces, I don't know if they are imune against the TP though.

But if the only reason to why Mordeth and Gholams have the same powers is because they don't have a massive body, why does Robert Jordan then point it out for us when Mat sees the Gholam run away?

Lord Ryugen
They don't have the same powers. For example there is no proof thatthe spirit of Mordeth could touch anything, forcing him to rely on his talking skills to trick people. There is also no evidence that the Gholam can swell it's body up.

zombieman
...By Robert Jordan. These are amazing, anyone else into them? Is there already a thread for these?

Morridini
I already have a going discussion about them here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f67/t292080.html

zombieman
Cheers!

zombieman
Aaargh, read some spoilers! I haven't got this far yet, im just into book two. I'll come back when im up to date.

Morridini
Ok, but if there is anything you wonder about we can probably help you without spoiling anything.

badkittykitty
thanks I'm a little late..but merged big grin

Lord Ryugen
I'm back. Been gone for days cause I couldn't go to my college (hurt my foot) but I have a question. Does anyone have an idea of what Fain's new powers are? The ones we know are: the power to corrupt, the power to see drakfriends and the power to transmit his anger as pain to another person. But he indicated that he had more and he broke Fade's spirt. So he's got have something nasty.

Morridini
I don't know any of his new powers, but you forgot to mention that he can feel Rand where ever he is. And thus always able to track Rand down.

Lord Ryugen
Oh yeah I missed that one, he talks about so often that it seems normal lol

ElectricBugaloo
Jordan better finish the next book soon, that stupid prequel was very disappointing...

Morridini
Knife of dreams is said to be out in 2005 sometime. But I didn't think New Spring was that bad, it wasn't great like the rest of the series but still ok. By the way, did anyone feel like Moiraine is partly lesbian? It seemed like that in some of the parts where she was together with Siuan.

Reborn Again
You know, I tried reading the first book 3 times. It's not that I'm not interested, the imaginery is awesome... it's just that it's very long and some times I don't have the time. I really want to read this series. It's up to 10 novels now and I have collected every one except #9. I'll soon be getting this one. I just need the time to sit down and enjoy them. I'm the kind of person who likes to enjoy what he's reading and not barrel through the story as if skimming through just to get it read. Getting into a book, I think, is like getting into a soothing bath. You have to ease into it carefully and slowly to thoroughly enjoy all of it.

smokin'

Lord Ryugen
Couldn't agree more mate. Oh and Morridini I don't think Mor and Siuan ever did the dirty. (Of course considering where she's from I could be wrong lol)

MasterWizard
I agree with Reborn. I got to book 7, and then I wasn't able to read as much as I wanted to, so I put it off, and I've decided that this summer, when school is over, I'll start them again, because I'll have all the time in the world to read.

Lord Ryugen
Can't get the image out of my head...hold on why would I want to hell yeah!

vaya_the_elf
I was told not to read it. Both people i knew who got into them said not to read it because it never ends.

Morridini
I recomend reading them.
I know it is a bit long but it will end with two more books, or perhaps three. So in total there will be 12 or 13 main books and three prequels, the prequels are not as good as the main books but are woth reading.

So you can tell your friends that we are near the end soon, just a coupple of years to go.

ElectricBugaloo
anyone else have The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time?

I think it's a pretty good reference, though i think they are going to have to have an updated version at some point

Morridini
I have it and, yeah I think so too. I would really like to see something abot Moridin, the cleansing of Saidin, the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn (is that correctlt spelled?) and Jain Farstrider who now is in company with Mat. Is there anything else you would like to see in an updated version?

Lord Ryugen
Damm My bookstore never got that. I'm jealous mad

Morridini
You can probably buy it ower the net. Or so I would asume.

Lord Ryugen
I could...if I had a credit card.

ElectricBugaloo
Jain Farstrider is with Mat? what?

Morridini
Lord Ryugen, cant u order with billing where u live?

And ElectricBugaloo (this is just a theory), Farstrider is traveling with Mat but not under the same name. Here are some evidence:

In The Eye Of The World, Chaper 47, More Tales of the Wheel, this happened:

Lord Agelmar is telling the story of the fall of Malkier: "When Cowin Fairheart's treachery was revealed and he was taken by young Jain Charin - already called Jain Farstrider..."

This happened at the fall of Malkier, when Lan was a baby, about 45 years or so before TEOTW. If Jain was a young man, 17-20 or so, then this would make him 65 or so now.

And in Winters Hearth Mat met Noal Charin. Noal is an old man, he has the same last name as Jain, and he's good at telling stories of his travels. Furthermore, he is interested in Darkfriends, matching up with Jains association with the Shadow (he traveled into the Blight etc).

Also in TEOTW, chapter 51, Against the Shadow:

Ba'alzamon said to Rand: "Jain Farstrider, a hero... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me."

If I remember correctly, Noal talked about his visit to the Ogiers, but I am not sure.

But this is only a theory. I think Nolan is Jain, but perhaps you have something to prove this theory wrong.

ElectricBugaloo
i haven't read the books in a while (I'm reading The Eye of The World again), so I forgot about Noal. He could be Farstrider; he can also tell stories very well; i don't think that anyone really knkows who wrote the book about Farstrider..I'll have to look at that when I get to those books.

Lord Ryugen
Morridini, I'm really poor right now so I can't do anything that involves buying things. Anyway I won't be posting for a week since I'm leaving college for a holiday. I'll post when I get back. Adios

Lord Ryugen
Dammit I'm not letting this thread end up like mine!

Morridini
Ok, lets try to get this thread up and going again. Perhaps someone can come up with a discussion idea? Or let us perhaps start by discussing if Lews Therin Telamon really is in Rand's head, or is Rand just going mad? I think he really is there, how could Rand otherwise learn weavings ancient weaves by that voice? Or if that is not a good discussion, what about answering the question "Who killed Amodean?", I hav no clue.

MasterWizard
I think Graendal killed Asmodean, and that Lews Therin is actually in Rand's head.

Lord Ryugen
Well whoever killed Asmodean was obviously someone he knew or had at least heard about otherwise we would he of been so terrified. As for Lewis Tealamon well I'm not sure. He does get memories but that only seems to happen when he needs it. For example when Rand was tracking the Asha'men who had tried to kill him he gained Lewis' ability to draw so he could get descriptions of them out. The voice itself seems to be a manafestaion of the emotions Rand locks away

Corran
He IS the dragon reborn and therefore is the re-incarnation of Lews, the voice is in his head and the memories are there too, they are all returning slowly, he is remembering things as time passes,

Morridini
Just because he is the re-incarnation of Lews doesn't mean that he should remember Lews's life. Everybody is the re-incarnation of someone else, but we don't see anyone else running around with a voice in their head. And also, I think I remember reading somewhere about a thrid person in Rand's mind. Does anyone have any idea who/what that is?

ElectricBugaloo
Rand gets memories from Lew Therin, we already know that from knowing Ilyena, and when he makes the outburst to Lanfear in Book 4, calling her Mieren. Also when he remembers the plum trees. He also gains abilities from Lews Therin (like the ability to draw)

Lord Ryugen
It's true he recives random memories occasionly but for the whole he only gets them when they're necissary. As for the third person well RJ's been pretty tight on info there so I don't know. And as for Asmodean's death well let's look as the suspects.
Greandal: Doubtful killing Asmodean doesn't fit in with her profile, she won't confront Rand directly and judging from her lifestyle it's unlikely she take such a large effort to kill one person.
Semirhage: Asmodean seemed to think that Sem would torture him into insanity before letting him die and I aggree outright killing's not her style.
Asan'gar and Oran'gar: nope
Sammael: Might of done it. Helping Rand is a death sentance where he's concerned. But Rand would sense the ability and I don't think Sam could be that close without taking a shot at his life.
Demandred: See Sam.
Moridin: RJ said he wasn't there in an interview. So nope
Lanfear: Just trapped in Finn world. Nope
Moghedien: Unconcious in Salidar. Nope
Messana. Possible dissapears and reappears in the tower when she wants ny the look of things. And with the shield in place she was stronger than Asmo. But would she consider it worth the risk of Avindhea finding her.
Rahvin: Balefired. Nope
Be'lal: Balefired. Nope
Shaidar Haran: Most likely since no one felt channeling that indicates that the True Power was used and since it wasn't Mor, Shaidar gets the vote. Note also that he could of removed the body by using the shadow trick Fades do.
Isam: Could of killed Asmo and took his body in the Dream World but is he fast enough kill him before he can channel.

Morridini
But acording to RJ the murderer is obvious when you read the about the murder. So when did Haran appear? If he had appeared at the time of Asmodean's death then he could have done it. But do remember that we have seen the murderer before the murder.

MasterWizard
Well Rand doesn't detect women's one power, so we can knock all the males off the list. He would have detected them.

When I first read that scene I though Moiraine killed him, but after searching about it on the web, I found several sites telling and explaining how Graendal is the culprit.

Lord Ryugen
Rand feels a tingle when women channell Saidar. But if it's someone we've seen before. Hmm this requries some thought.

ElectricBugaloo
If it was the True Power, then no one could feel it.

Morridini
But who could use the TP at that time? Had Haran and Moridin appeared then? I don't remember that book much.

MasterWizard
Here is an answer from Robert Jordan himself on the subject of Asmodean's death. Read it for yourself for a few laughs.

Lord Ryugen
Lol, The mystery is solved Patrick Nielsen-Hayden is our murderer.

ElectricBugaloo
Isn't Taim one of the Forsaken? Or who is he?

Morridini
No Taim is not one of the Forsaken, he is one of the false Dragons, like Logain.

Lord Ryugen
Yeah, a lot of people thought he was Demandred in disguise but apparantly not. Which begs the obvious question where the hell is he? I mean we've got a good fix on most of the others but he just comes and goes at will. The only thing we know is that his base is down south.

ElectricBugaloo
i know that Taim was a false dragon, but he seems to have his own agenda, and we've yet to really see Demandred in any of the books except for when he's at Shayol Guhl


We don't KNOW his base is down south, that's just what Sammael thought. In reality, Mesaana, Demandred and Semirhage haven't really been in the books all that much--although Mesaana has played a large role in the White Tower.

Morridini
Since so many belived that Taim was Demandred (Taimandred as he was called) RJ got tired of this nonsense and said right out that Taim is not Demandred. But you are right that Taim is up to something, I think that Rand or Logain will get rid of Taim in the next book. This is what RJ answared to a question regarding Taimandred:

Question:
At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?


Robert Jordan Answers:
Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. &lt;Maniacal laughter from the shadows!&gt;

Lord Ryugen
Probably Logain in a battle that'll destroy the black tower and fufill the Prophicy Eldia made. So new question where do you all think Dem is and is it possible we've met him in the disguise of another charactor?

ElectricBugaloo
OK, so what role does Shaidar Haran and Mordin play?

Morridini
What do you mean ElectricBugaloo? Moridin is Ishamael reborn and the Nea'blis, so I bet he and Rand will fight a big fight at Tar'mon'gaidon. I have one question though, have we ever seen Moridin and Shaidar Haran in the same room at the same time? Could they possibly be the same person? I can't remember ever seeing them in the same room together.

Lord Ryugen
That's true but I'm not entirely sure. They both act very differently. Still it's an intresting idea.

ElectricBugaloo
yeah, and when Moghedien comes out of the vacuole in Crown of Swords, it seems as if Moridin knew all that had happened between her and Shaidar Haran.

Moridin has used the True Source, and so he is almost certainly one of the Forsaken reborn, and he isn't Balthamael, Asmodeon, Aginor or Lanfear (the ones who died w/o Balefire before his appearance).

Morridini
There is a lot of things connecting Moridin to Ishamael. The eyes, Moridin has those black Sara (or something beginning with a s) in his eyes and Ishamael had fire eyes. They both like to use the True Power. Moridin lived in the Age of Daggers, we get to know this in A Path of daggers. The other Forsaken said that he is more crazy then before, so it is someone they knew. So it look like Moridin is Ishamael, but who knows? Perhaps RJ will suprise us at Tar'mon'gaidon by making Rand fight both Ishamael and Moridin, even though I doubt this.

ElectricBugaloo
Then who is Moridin?

Morridini
As I said, I think he is Ishamael, but one can never know (exept RJ)

ElectricBugaloo
crap, i meant Shaidar Haran

Morridini
He could be (not likely though) Moridin. But the only reason to think that is because we have never seen them in the same room. He could be a Forsaken reborn, but then I think we would have known it. As it looks like now he is only a special myrdraal and the messenger of the Dark One.

By the way, did we get Haran's point of view in any of the books? And if so, where?

ElectricBugaloo
I think so, i'm not sure

ElectricBugaloo
we do get Shaidar Haran's POV in Crown of Swords after Sammael and Graendal seperate the Shaido to various parts of the continent. This is where we learn that he is somehow chained to Shayol Ghul.

Morridini
Hmm, and if I remember correctly the chapter which Sammael seperated the Shaido was the same one as when we saw the Watcher/Wanderer who I belive is Moridin. I don't have the book here, but is there any form for connectio there? I will look it up once I get the chance.

ElectricBugaloo
the watcher was a previous chapter with Sammael's first meeting with the Shaido Wise Ones. I don't think it ever says who the watcher is, but it says that he is using the True Power, so it looks like Moridin.

ElectricBugaloo
i don't know if you guys have seen this site, but it's pretty good:

http://www2.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/index.html

Morridini
Hmm, looks good. Did u see the link to another good WOT site which I posted here? Well here it is again: http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html

Lord Ryugen
Does anyone know whats going on with all the ghosts popping up. it seemsall the main characters have been in a position where they or someone nearby has seen the dead walking

Morridini
Perhaps more then just dead heroes were brought back by the Great Horn of Valere. This is just one theory which I don't belive. I wonder if anything about dead people has been said in any of the Dragon prophecies, I'll look it up.

ElectricBugaloo
from http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=123&theo=1750
Well, it seems that the title Knife of dreams is not some April Fool's joke, so I'll spell out what I think it means.

We know that dead heroes linked to the Horn reside in T'A'R until they are reborn. We also know Egwene has seen that the dreams of every person, perhaps the dreams of every person who ever was, in the gap between T'A'R and the waking world. And we also know that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn reside in a dimension somehow related to T'A'R, and they have enabled Mat to make use of memories of dead men, specifically of their moment of death. And finally we have seen that both the Amayar and Aiel have sayings/beliefs indicating that "life is but a dream from which we wake" (tSR) and the time of Illusions (dreams) is at an end. The last fact is that dead people have started showing up as ghosts in CoT.

All of this points to two things in my twisted mind: Dead people are 'stored' in an area related to T'A'R until their rebirth, and, The barrier between that area and the waking world has begun weakening.

The Title 'Knife of Dreams' refers to the final cutting through of that barrier. The dream world will no longer be separate from the waking world, and many many many more ghosts and undead creepy-crawlies will surface in the next book.

Now is that cutting through due to the pattern or the Dark One? Well, I ask you, will it increase chaos? Yeppers! The Dark One's efforts have been doing what since making endless summer four books ago? They've been tearing down the wall separating the living from the dead. While everyone is fending off ghosts and such, his Trolloc hordes will march across the World virtually unopposed.

What this means to anyone who dies during this time is a good question, but I'll wager Rand living and dying again is dependent on this taking place.

Morridini
Hmm, thats one theory. A good one, finally an explanation for the title, I have wondered what it could mean for some months now.

By the way: "What this means to anyone who dies during this time is a good question, but I'll wager Rand living and dying again is dependent on this taking place."
Rand is not supposed to die and live again (if thats what he meant by living and dying again). It was a prophecy concerning Mat which was fullfilled in book 4 or 5.

ElectricBugaloo
we're not sure if the prophecy concerning Mat dying and living again has been reached yet..

ElectricBugaloo
for the "Who killed Asmodean?" question, let's analyze this:

Asmodean says: "You? No!" before dying. So it must be a Forsaken that he knows. (RJ says its obvious, so i'll go with the obvious of it being a Forsaken)

Ishamael: Dead, even if alive, he has a new body, so Asmodean wouldn't recognize him.

Demandred: LOC, Prologue, The First Message, pages 15-16, Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. He wouldn't lie about this to the Dark One at Shayol Ghul

Semirhage: LOC, Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 141, Sem thinks Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed but he really had vanished... and later If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean?
Obviously does not know if Asmodean is dead or not

Moghedien: Under the effects of forkroot, and/or prisoner of Nynaeve with the a'dam

Aran'gar + Osan'gar: See Ishamael

Mesaana: Hadn't been mentioned up to this point

Shaidar Hadran: Wouldn't have been recognized by Asmodean

Sammael: LOC, Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 133, we have big evidence "Rumors! Lanfear has been aiding al Thor since the beginning, if you ask me. I would have had his head in the Stone of Tear except that someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him! That was Lanfear; I am certain. Im done with her. The next time I see her, Ill kill her! And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al Thor. Hes teaching him!
Sammael probably isn't lying here because of the pure fury he's in; he's known to lose himself in his anger

Lanfear: Prisoner of the Finns.

so that leaves...Graendal.

There ya go, Graendal killed Asmodeon

Morridini
Looks right. But why does it have to be a Forsaken? It is one thing which complicates it being a Forsaken, why didn't anyone sence the killing? The Castle was filled with Wise Ones and Rand.

Lord Ryugen
Nice theroy Bugaloo. It doesn't sound like something Graendal would do but she's most likely the cuprit. And there is something about Rand seemingly dying Morridini. Egwene had a dream about it.
''Logian laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out over a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.''
Thats just one vision, theres a few more but they indicate that Rand's going to fake his death to get something done. But it was Mat who was supposed to die and live again, and that was done in the fight against Ravian.

ElectricBugaloo
I think the reason it is one of hte Forsaken is because Asmodean recognized the culprit, and he is not likely to recognize anyone in this Age besides Rand, Aviendha, Mat and the Forsaken

Lord Ryugen
I believe it has to be one of he Forsaken but when looking at Grendeal's lifestyle and acounts from other Forsaken's POVs I can't see her taking such a large risk of being discovered. Unless she was ordered by the DO ofcourse

MasterWizard

Lord Ryugen
Well can't argue with that.

Morridini
Its all too blurry for me to agree or disagree. I have to reread those books again.

Lord Ryugen
I read it last month and it all seems to fit so until it gets proven wrong I'll go along with that.

ElectricBugaloo
I gave you exactly where all the other Forsaken were at the time--so we know it wasn't them, and MasterWizard went more in depth with Graendal

Morridini
I just wanted to tell u that I will be going away for 3-4 weeks now and won't be able to log in and post replies at that time. Or perhaps I am lucky and get acess to internet one of those days. Please cary on a discussion anyway.

MasterWizard
Yes, we need a new discussion since I brutally ended this one wink.

How about who and what is Padan Fain? Does he work under anyone's orders (other than his own)? Will he become the Dark One?

Morridini
He is a peddler who have been twisted by the Dark One into a thing which can't rest as long as Rand is alive. He has also been infected by the Spirit Mordeth from Shaidar Logoth and now thinks about himself more or less as Mordeth. And as it looks like he does not take orders from anyone.

And how/why would he become the Dark One? It is impossible for him to become it (since the DO is not a creation from their world).

MasterWizard
Ok. I'm just taking theory descussions from another site to keep this thread going.

Morridini
Ok. Here is perhaps an idea for discussion. What will happen to MAt in the following books? will the Daughter of the Nine Monns complete the ceremony and marry Mat? Will MAt then become the Emperor of the Seanchan once the Empress dies? And so on. Unfortunatly I can't be a part of this discussion, since my vacation starts in 2 hours. Bye.

ElectricBugaloo
adios even though you can't see this...well you'll see it when you get back

We know that Tuon (easier to type than Daughter of the Nine Moons) will complete the ceremony--the Finns (i forget which are which) told him already. He won't be the emperor, he'll be like Queen Elizabeth's husband.

Though I believe he will go to Seanchan to bow before the Crystal Throne; i think it was foretold somewhere (I know that Rand bowing is in the Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon)

Lord Ryugen
Perhaps Tuon completed the ceremony already. We know she only has to say the words three times in front of witnesses but nothing say's she has to do it in front of Mat. Besides she already seems to know that Mat will be her husband, else why would she go so far out of her way to stay nearby him.

Elmindreda
mm.. Wheel of Time discussion? I haven't found people who like WoT for years!!! Wow, I'm very happy to have found this place. You all bring up some good points there.

ElectricBugaloo
after thinking about it for a while, i think that Tylin will sell Mat to Tuon like she said she would; Tuon will obviously complete the ceremony beacuse of what the Finn said.


and welcome to the discussion, Elmindreda

Morridini
I'm back.
Glad to see another WOT fan here, welcome Elmindreda. If you have any idea for a new discussion please come with it, looks like we have run dry at the moment.

Morridini
Ok, looks like you are all gone. Too bad, it was fun as long as it was.

Morridini
I am trying to revive this thread one last time. If none of u repleys after this then I will leave it forever.

MasterWizard
I recently restarted the series, and I am currently on book 3. When I read book 2 the first time, I missed a lot of details. I noticed as I was reading it this time all kind of things I didn't before.

What do you think will happen in Knife of Dreams?

Morridini
I think we will see a lot to Taim and the Black Tower. And probably a fight between Taim and Rand/Logain, and then Logain would be the new M'hael.

I also think that Perrin will finaly try to save Faile, up till now he has only been lurcing around searching for her. But I don't remember book ten much. Did Faile start her own escape attempt?

ElectricBugaloo
no one was here, so i quit the thread,but i'm back now

Morridini
Good. Let's get this thread up and running again.
Something new to discuss... Who is who of all the reborn Forsaken?
this is what I think:

Moridin is Ishamael reborn. They both had some strage eyes and Ishamael's fire eyes could be an effect by Sras (or whatever it was called). They are also the only ones we have seen using the True Power.

Cyndae is Lanfear reborn. They both had an attachment to Rand. Cyndaea was thinking about hwo she didn't like Rand's women and that she wanted revenge, or something.
Aran'gar and Osan'gar are Balthamel and Agelmar. The one who created the Trolocs is the one who is now a woman. This is said straight out when we learn of them. The reason I think the other one is the one of thsoe two who did not creat the Trollocs is that he is the only dead male forsaken left. Who haven't been Balefired.

So what do u think. Do u disagree with me?

ElectricBugaloo
yeah, i agree completely.

MasterWizard
I also agree.

Morridini
Hmm. I actualy hoped to get a discussion going. Damn that not one of u had a different opinion.

ElectricBugaloo
i think that it has become obvious who each of the Forsaken who died came back as.

Damnit, we have to wait a whole year for the next book

Morridini
Ok. Another attempt to revive this thread.

How do u think Thom will save Moiraine (as was viewed in one of Min's visions (or was it Egwenes dream?)). Will he and Mat enter the tower of Genji? And if they are, how are they gonna enter? After Perrin's encounter with Slayer it looked like u had to enter it through the wolf dream/Tel'aran'rhiod.

Any thoughts?

MrSpangle
i half way through book 2. wait a second....Thoms still alive blink moirrane dies confused argh!! lol ah well this book so good u could tell me all there is to know, ruin every twist... and it would still rock. i just read an 11 book series before this one (david gemmell's drenai and SKillgannon the damned... cos they're all one series really) and this looks like one hell of a series also. cant wait to work my way through all these books!

Morridini
*Bump*

frodo34x
Im finding it hard to get into 'Path of Daggers'.
Did anyone else find that the series went sorta downhill and started to seem a bit, well, pointless after Rand captured Carheinen?

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