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Ok, very important that I sort this out ASAP.

Here I am inviting opinions from all Dark Side players, because the game cannot run properly unless this has been discussed.

Zink intends to take a Nemesis template for the upcoming campaign, more specifically a Bane, an ex-Jedi Master.

This greatly changes the style of the Dark Side campaign, entirely changing the focus. It stops being an exercise in a leaderless group of equals held together by shared need and circumstance, and becomes more an issue in exercising power and Dark Side team running. In several ways, it actually reduces the contrast from the game before- though it will still be a 100% player run affair, either way.

The Nemesis is in charge. That is how it works. The 'Megalomania' characteristic enforces this in the rules, in as much as if anyone is seriously rivalling the Nemesis for leadership, it has to be resolved in the death of one or the other.

Therefore the group is under the direction of another player. The Dark Siee group will not therefore work unless everyone is happy both with being under direction of another player at all, and, more to the point, being under the direction of that particular player. This is not meant to be an exercise in criticism, and I do not want anyone to think that way. It is simply that some players might not like the group dynamic of being led in a particular person's style.

The Jedi- where leadership is less contentious of an issue anyway, because they work so much better as team players, they are led by Gundy, and Gundy being a fully adult woman (who watched the original Star Wars film back in '77 when she was 14) fits the Master vibe very well; she also has a lot of practice. I repeat what I said before, it is NOT easy to play a Master, and it is just as hard Light Side as Dark. If it is going to be introduced into the campaign, it is very important to the quality of the campaign that it is done right.

All if you by accepting the Nemesis in the group also, by default, accepts that your character accepted him also. If one of you did not, or would not, oin your opinion, then you would not be in the game, having either left or been eliminated before play starts. This will never happen- I will ban a Nemesis as an option before it does.

Now, if the Nemesis thing is done right, it can bring rewards- the rewards of a well organised and efficient group. But it can also be a disaster as players simply amongst themselves- and this will be a dangerous time to do that!

A Nemesis has one other problem to face- coming in new, the vets- especially Galder and Rah- have spent experience points and, on the idea that the starting templates are roughly balanced, are in relative terms actually more powerful than the Nemesis overall (although the Nemesis will still have the highest aggregate of force powers, sabre skill and force pool). This makes a Nemesis' position more tenuous- the worry that Galder, in particular, would have a good chance of killing him. Galder and Takuan working together would be very difficult to stop indeed. Again, intelligent play and power poltiics will sort this out- that is half the job of a Nemesis. But it is not easy!

So, I want you guys to think about, and give some feedback, on the following points:

1. Are you ok with the different style of play of having a Nemesis in the group has?

2. Will you be ok specifically working underneath another player in an effectively forcible fashion?

3. Will you be ok with the overall group dynamic that will create, looking at who will be in charge and who will work under him?

4. Zink, do you think you are up for the job?

Any other comments you want to make are welcome.

One other thing- if you go ahead with this, then I think it would be a good idea if you guys actually defined how the group works as an organised force with a lead figure. Who does what, what style do you have (Kuylen ran things like a military squad, you may not), what are your broad objectives? Tactics? Typical actions in a day? Does your group have a name?

The set-up would be that the new players would all have been working for the Nemesis already, and the vets, who used to work for Galder, have met the Nemesis since- in fact, the Nemesis will have been, for one reason or another, moving out to the Outer Rim and have heard of the exploits of Kuylen's people, and maybe also Kuylen's people heard of this Nemesis. At some point in the intervening two years, the two groups meet, and the vets agree to work for this new guy. So they would be the relative outsiders; the other new players would have known each other longer.

Also, as detailed in the story summary aside from your background merits you have spent, as the game starts you are currently in an 'unachieved' position- no home, no organisation under your control, and few ideas about what to do next, so if you want to have been part of something large before that is fine, but either you left or it failed and got destroyed, or whatever.

A lot to think about if a Nemesis is involved! Without a Nemesis, you are just trying to survive day by day, with one, we have to look at some things in more detail.

So, think about all that, and give me some feedback!

I like the fact that I was in charge before the Nemesis...

I'm fine with Zink being a Nemesis.

I think Rah will manage living under the thumb even if he is power greedy.

I'm happy to give it a go, if it seems like its not working we'll just mutiny and kill Zink and let him role another dude to play with or something.

It might be a good idea to discuss aims objectives so we can sort out a leadership ladder. With our gained xp Galder, Tarkuan and Rah could become Generals again in charge of our own sections/missions under the direction of Zink. This, perhaps, would also give us an opportunity to have our own version of a padawan - an evil NPC that we sort of control that looks up to and answers to us.

So long as it fits in with the overall plot I wouldn't mind seeing Rah further himself by starting some sort of thug outfit/protection racket dealing in information and intimidation.

I don't mind having an evil master to answer to

btw, what time period is this set in?

Wouldn't really bother me...

You guys really want those padawans dont you?
Well Phhhtt! their ours! :P

DR It pre, Around ATOC and TPM

It is two years ater the Battle of Naboo.

If the Dark Side group dynamic breaks down, you could well find yourselves dead, btw.

Do remember that you are starting off with zilch, btw...

The point has also been raised about availability... if the group is following a Nemesis and then he cannot get on for a period of time it could be tricky.

As ever, I can work around things, but this is also a complication that should be considered.

don't really care for a padawan.

hmm..i don't know what to say. It would be silly to deny the advantages of having a nemesis....however....there's something unknown to me..and that is zink's play style....it has to be competent. Takuan would hate it if thigns would stray TOO much outside his opinions on how to do it. AND...if we don't like it...i would be totally open to an alliance in putting him out.....but that's tricky...all the lost time with a character, adn so on...

overall, though..i'm willing to give it a try. But i'm asking zink to think well if he's able to do it..

Fair points!
We could still try it and kill the Nemesis off if it doesnt work out. That way Zink at least gets to have a go, give him the chance to acid test so to speak.

Yeah, as I say about that killing him thing- if the group dynamic breaks down in game, it could be fatal for at least some of you.

well...with kuylen it was one thing...more or less fixed into the bigger plot.
but in this cae...i WOULD rather risk my character..then follow something i don't agree with by far.

oh well..we'll see...

Just to be clear, I don't just mean some of you may kill each other- I mean it is a dangerous time to be divided. Your enemies will NOT decrease just because you factionalise.

oooh I think I'm gonna start pooring poison into the ears of certain darkies

i know, i know.....but it'd be dangerous to have our goal following lucidity less than perfect in a time like this

*closes ears* Lalalala, I'm not listening, I'm not listening! *dances in circle around Fire*

The real reason I didn't get on enough was that I was bored with Wraith. He was too...average, IMO.

I'm sure once Nume is operational, I'll be on much more. I can be competetive, so Nume will be, as Wraith wasn't since he got tossed aside a few times due to my absences. Don't want that happening to a leader, do we?

Well indeed.

Well, it doesn't seem like anyone else is objecting...

When I say kill him, I was thinking more along the lines of - The groups not happy, Zinks not happy so the nemesis dies very quickly in a horrible 'accident' or something. Zink has a new character ready to go, gets brought in and we carry on from there.

I am afraid that will not happen.

yeah..there have to be some consequences for risking having a nemesis.
but...i'm just saying...if the sh!t hits the fan....i hope i can count on the team to saber the bugger down

Consequences indeed.

But it looks like you guys are up for the challenge! So, now I'd like you to sort out those group details I talked about. How do you guys work?

I...uh...kill things, and then Rah...uh...also kills things... and then the Nemesis can...uh...kill even more things...

i want to concentrate on the more subtle part of actions
diplomacy (as in evil skeamery covered plans)..corruption, and so on....

Dont forget Rah sings badly too!

I was hoping to develop the thug side of Rah seems as it's in his template so if he could be in charge of um... thuggary and generally being nasty to normal folk it would go down quite well with me!

lol

This seems to be more of a list of what you are good at rather than your role in a team-focussed organisation...

want me to give an example

welll....our goal seems to be reaching kuylen..or who ever is using that beeper. don't know what the grand plan will be after that (finding the archive i assume)....but...we have to see before we set on an approach style

I was kinda thinking more about the style you had set for yourselves during the intervening 2 years.

oh...weeell.....hmmm.....dunno...we were more or less scavangers..living from tay to day. whatever the style..it seeems to have been unsuccesful. i guess i'll have to think about how we operated...maybe the others have suggestions

oh..and fire told me to say that:
"Galder was the leader, I was tha man with tha plan and Rah... well he just hung around"

more or less his exact words

Well, these are the kind of things you can have ideas about.

*smacks dexx* atleast do it decent

Nothing from you is decent, Fire.

*braces for slap*

Well Rah has been the hanger arounder mainly because he doesn't really have what it takes to scheme big plans - probably the reason he's a thug. Big, hard, vindictive, not stupid but not perhaps the most forward thinking of any group.

So for the last 2 years Rah has been trying to find the where abouts of Kuylen through a network of information dealers all of whom seem to be losing interest in Rah and his recent lack of ability to trade info. The problem is that he is just too caught up in trying to find Kuylen that he cant see the wood for the trees....

Trees are made of wood though, therefor they are one.

I am not quite sure that quite got at the nub of the matter...

However, where is the Zinkmeister? This cannot be done withot him- bodes badly...

I would have thought the dark side would have been trying to get control of criminal organisations, making friends with the hutts, twisting weak minded planetary governors to out control etc etc. That sort of thing...

Oh yeah, Tanic would like to be less of an up front guy... Like setting up petty organisations. That shadow behind all the evil goings on...

None of you have the means to get control of any organisation.

Well couldn't we have been trying?

And failing. But yes, if that is what you want. In fact, the preview for the game showed the end of the latest attempt. You had to wipe out the leadership of the clan you were trying to get in with.

Specifically, Galder did.

Just waiting for things to kick off, I suppose...

Err, I meant, where were you in this discussion? We cannot pin down the nature of the group- and hence start the game- without input from the boss!

Also waiting for Gundy. Actually, I don't have the DS story yet either but I think I will have that before some other factors needed are sorted.

Well, I was right- I got the DS storyline some 20 minutes after writing that...

Coolio...

Coolio except that this whole thing isn't done yet...

Will be eventually.

Alright, nature of the group...

Primarily, I let people do what they are good at, though Nume puts a damper on the more violent templates so they don't kill everyone we try to talk to (though, as far as I can tell, it happens anyway). We don't let people know we can use the Force unless we have to.

Hope that helps a bit...

Okidokey. How do you control people like Galder?

I let him have his fun every now and then, but I try to keep him under control by threatening to turn him out into the cold without a hope of surviving, kind of like a "You need us to survive" thing.

Bearing in mind he could probably kill you one on one?

Hmm...

I also allow him to have a bit of power in the group, like my right hand man type thing. That way, he's less likely to hate me if I let him be the leader occasionally.

Or it could make him more power hungry...

A difficult position to handle.

So, you have made Galder your second in command? This is the kind of important thing we all have to know, you see.

Well, he was the leader before, so yes, he is second in command.

Takuan is who Nume looks to for advice, because he seems to be one of the few Dark-Siders who has the ability to think.

Rah is my thug.

Who told you Galder was the leader before???

Where did I read that...

I think you might have said it earlier, or it might have been someone else...

I think Dexx might be alarmed at that...

Hmm, I have to think that over then...

I would still like to make a veteran my right hand man, or make them all my inner circle. I guess right hand man wouldn't work, since they aren't exactly as balanced in template as, say, a Fallen. Galder is more likely to kill things, Takuan would want to stay out of combat, and Rah...well, he's a thug, he doesn't want to be up front.

I guess they could all be inner circle...

As for those who were traveling with me before we met the vets, which is TM, DR, and Trickster...hmm...dunno...

Might those travelling with you perhaps resent it if the new arrivals are promoted over them?

Yes, I was just thinking about that...

Yup, tricky issue this. See what you can sort out...

ofcourse..you have to consider that...this not being the army an all....rankings don't necessary have to exist....
to ease the tension and envy and so on..

galder wasn't in command in the previous game. kuylen was.....
but rex, having played the longest, got to be sort of a leader in the time span between the games. so no actual PLAY time..

Well, I didn't say rankings had to exist- making Galder ranked above the rest of you was Zink's idea!

But if not, I go back to my original question- how does he handle Galder?

they know eachother irl (if i recall well) and they can probably sort details like that at school and stuff

So long as it is handled.

But how will he handle you, hmm?

yeah..there's always that.
though i can't exactly saber him down..hmm.
i hope we develop a gaming style that suits both our tastes..so we don't get to fights...

This I hope too; I hope raising some of these issues now at least gets people thinking.

Ush, didn't you say somewhere Galder was the leader of the group?

Oh yeah, I can see my cahracter being resentful if he is just pushed to one side...

Err, no...

I think you said something about in between games, since I had been in the crew longest out of Rah and Takuan and I...

Doesn't matter anyway, I can kick all your asses any time I like!

Still contemplating on how to keep Galder under my thumb. Tricky, since he could kill me one-on-one...

As for Takuan, he has no chance against me regarding a swordfight. Also, he's our Force-based guy, so he gets to give everyone advice regarding visions and the like...

Other than Takuan's high Force ability, Nume will not play favorites, as Dexx suggested. No ranks, no favorites, no (or less) tension. Though, I will be trusting certain jobs to certain people. For example, I'm not going to send Takuan to go wipe out a room of droidekas, and Galder to go be diplomatic with a Hutt would could kill us all, and Rianna to go lift a heavy rock with the Force. Hell, I'd rather do it all myself than let it get that mixed up.

How about something along the lines of -

Galder, Tarkuan and Rah still riding on Kuylens rep a little longer.
Yes they've not being doing too well but Nume knows their reputation for bring a good team with good experience. They just need coordinating.
So if he can just bring them in together maybe as "consultants" if you will, then he could introduce them to his own team without too much back biting. A little tension between the old and the new should be fun without being too detramental after all we are dark siders...

yo sup im tristan who you guys

Zink, whilst obviously Takuan has little interest in direct confrontation, perhaps you would be more worried that he is the one most likely to plot your demise?

...yeah, i was just gonna suggest that

lol dexx you evil person

i have just read your sig.....are you advertising for gundy's postion already?..she's still playing ....no more jedi masters

(the other peeps dont have to know that and I was thinking if Roan gets up really high after a few more campaigns he might get the rank of master?)

Really high? Sounds like a Jedi to me...

He might attain the rank, but the template doesn't switch, IMO.

So, Takuan is the plotter? Stop making me like Saar, dammit!

lol if you improve from a knight to a master you'll be better than the core master anywayz

Definitlely. Strength of 5 and Speed of 6 can be beaten easily.

it is compensated by a higher sabre rank (atleast a bit) and a big ass amount of force powers

Agreed. I enjoy having 30 Force powers...

Same here

you can find force powers to compensate for a lot

but it's not the amount of Force Powers it's the high force rating that does it

You know plotting. If I was Zink I would be afraid of everyone plotting against me. Although I am a bit paranoid...

Thing is, I don't want Nume to be paranoid. I want him to be able to relate to the other Dark Jedi and have their trust/respect/etc. so that he doesn't become paranoid. That's what Saar (an NPC) was like in the last campaign, as Ush designed him, and he turned himself in.

How much trust can you have in a Dark Sider?

none.
saar taught us that...too bad.....i liked saar.
will we ever hear from him again?

Oooh, you might just...

i would actually hate it if he truned light sided. no-one does that....light to dark is ok...bot..not the other way around..bwah

Dexx, this is ME. You know that sure as hell ain't happening in one of MY games- I loathe the 'revolving door', as I call the EU's habit of bouncing people up and down.

oh..great...
then a sabotage or something .....guess we'll wait and see...

Ok, a year on.

I have had some commentary aimed to me lately about dissatisfaction with the structure of how the Dark Side is organised and running, to the point where play is less enjoyable.

It is time for the Dark Side players to consider their future. I consider all options open.

Well, Gallador is not fully satisfied with Rand, but Rand is still much better than Galder!

The choice is actually Rand or no-one.

Well, me not obviously....

I am the weakest fighter, right?! But 3rd in terms of Force Power?

Yup.

If there is no Rand- assuming he dies of his injuries- you go to a leaderless state instead, which brings things back to the original concept.

I think it should be noted I am removing the leadership bonus to your Animosity rating, because people are simply not working with Rand.

Actually, I was the only one who referred to him as Master!

But Takuan and Galder are hardly his apprentices...

I remember this thread.....

Technically NONE of us are, he just likes to refer to the group of us that were with him (ie Tanic, Rianna, and Gallador) as his apprentices. Rianna tends to not appreciate that very much

I have no idea how things were when there wasn't a leader, as I wasn't playing at that time....but Rand's really not doing that great a job as a leader. Damnit Zink, you've had a year to figure this out

Oh, there was a leader. Galder still owes his allegiance to him.

Rand hasn't exactly done anything beneficial but get himself screwed over...and US screwed over...several times. It's quite fun, Galder actually enjoys it. The only reason Galder follows him, really, is that he always leads to trouble. Galder likes trouble, and likes ending trouble....

Yeah, well near-death isn't quite fun.

You're not Galder.

For the most part, Rand is winging it and hoping he doesn't get killed. So far, we've fought Osokans, and have been duped by Doon. Not exactly a chance to lead crusades and become a Sith Lord, am I right?

Originally posted by Captain REX
You're not Galder.

Nope. Rianna's smarter than he is

There's no point saying that you can only be a good leader when eveeything is going right, Rand!

And to be sure- on that basis you may well never get such a chance.

Well, please do consider the situation, folks, because this is the only good chance to change things for the forseeable future, and there will be no point moaning in-thread about it when you made an active decision to carry on with things as they are.

I looked at the option of Rand simply not being leader any more, but it would almost certainly put your animosity into the penalising level.

we are leaderless nontheless. winging it doesn't cut it rand. but i don't think the leading job is easy for a player character. the master template simply doesn't strike through it's dominance. and that's good, because it balances the game.....but it also leaves room for disobediance. somebody controlling a character with kuylen's stats can make himself lestened waaay more easily. but that's that....

Takuan hates this current state, let that be said.

It should be remembered that the Nemesis templates are balanced against other starting templates, rather than templates with a campaign's worth of experience behind them. That always made the job harder for Rand; Masters are meant to have the highest sabre rating.

(and indeed, Rand has more Force and force powers than Kuylen)

Anyway, point is, I am always worried when a player hates the situation, especially when the group as a whole doesn't seem happy.

I think we are going to have to directly look at the question- does Rand keep on playing or not?

And please don't wimp out again with a 'try it and see' answer- thart's what got you into trouble last time, and an opportunity might not be there anyway. It is important people are decisive rather than trying to find a pointless compromise.

Do you want him in perpetuity- yes or no?

Sorry to be harsh, but is has reached that point. If the answer is yes, EVERYONE should try and make it work, else the unhappiness will continue. If you don't think you can do that then say no. It is a shame for Zink, I know, if we say no, but Rand is on borrowed time anyway so I can't see any major complaint.

I'l leave the decision to the players, but my opinion is that putting a Master in has failed as an idea. On the other hand, subsequent stories are ready to work with Rand and if things do improve then I am very open to be being shown to be wrong.

leavign aside all simpathy for zink as a normal player, my answer for him as a master is no

Maybe if Rand was more powerful, enough so to bring Galder under heel, then I'd have said yes. But right now, with this combat seeming to work out better with a group plan (barring the stealth bit...) when compared with the other situations we've been through, my answer is no.

Sorry Zink.

Ok, I have been in communication with my brother.

I do have an alternative to killing off Rand if the vote is no.

No to Rand`s leadership!

I am sorry, but we are not effective( it isn`t only his fault, but the leader takes the blame, this is the price!)

Ok, it looks like we know where this one is heading.

That being the case, my brother suggests this.

Anakin is planning on killing the Emperor almost immediately, as he so attempts to conspire with Padme ("Not too bright, though...".

However, he doesn't do it, because by the time his job is done, he is now this cybernetic cripple and his great power has gone.

But instead he bides his time- and once Luke comes along, he is looking for the chance for power again...

My brother thinks that a Megalomaniac who becomes crippled in the way Anakin did and Rand has has an option to suppress his megalomania attribute as he decides to play the long term game, as his immediate loss of power makes his top-of-the-tree position untenable.

If we exercise this option, Rand can continue to play without the group having a decided leader, and with megalomania suppressed, you will not pay the animosity penalty.

I thought this could be combined with a little re-conning of Rand; character, with him being more of a Veteran Jedi than an actual Dooku-type ex-Master, and his low stas caused by accumulated injuries (at, foer example, the Rattatak arena, and now confirmed by this)

Of course, as Rand gains in experience, his megalomania will return- and by then he may be in a much better position to lead.

Meanwhile, as Rand's character changees, he gets to hack out a new niche as a custom template all of his own. The group gets to continue with Rand as their main source of Lore and other such knowledge, and still the lik by which they find new members, but not with the automatic 'must be boss' schtick.

Of course, you can always decide on another leader, but I doubt that will work- Takuan is too much of a backroom boy (who would be more likely to steal power once he is strong enough rather than get put into the firing range like that), and Galder... would probably make just as many people unhappy...

And no-one else is really suitable.

How does this sound?

Does it really change anything?!

We still don`t have effective leadership!

And if our planning does not improve, there is no way we can defeat Doon! He is just too smart!

You would go to having no leadership and trying to come up with group decisions. That is the consequence of saying no to Rand's leadership in any case- the above is an alternative to having Rand die.

It might be better than.

Rand is the leading force user, Galder foremost warrior, Takuan and me dilplomats...

I am okay with this!

sounds good ush. we'll see how it goes.

diplomacy is a trait we rarely have to rely on, gallador....especially lately. it's good to know how to talk yourself (or the group) out of a situation but fighting is primordial in this game .

Well, I am quite capable in fighting too, am I not?!

yep..carefull when using emotions, and strength from X though..it can down you pretty quick..

Talking got most the job done in the Citadel! It was only the final heist that needed the sabres.

Fighting is always a primary option for the Dark Siders but that's true for the Jedi as well. On the whole, the Dark Side campaign presents a lot of situations where fighting is not an option.

Death to Rand! Kill him!

jk, I prefer Rand being not the leader, but still with us. Still useful to have around, no?

Oh, I see how it is...

Ah, I don't mind, leading was a bit too...um...not my position, really. I do wish to keep Rand around, but if we vote him dead, then I will bring back Wraith.

nope...enemies are calculated considering our number, not necessary skill.....and rand is better than wraith

Thank you for your kindness, Dexx.

Nonetheless, I am going to fill out Wraith's character sheet just in case Rand bites the dust...

Eh, just be a Revenant you blundering fool...

I think that sounds like a good idea, keep him around but not be leader....because frankly, Zink, you sucked as a leader no offense but it's true.

oh..cut it with the misha thing..it's laaaame

Oh shut it, that was totally random.

Then again, this is also totally random, but I was flipping through a Japanese cookbook we have and discovered that Takuan means pickled radish in Japanese

Now, let's drag this thread back to where it belongs and keep it on topic

yep..the name is japanese, after a character i really liked. didn't know it had a meaning

Ok ok. Well, decision is Zink's- re-done Rand or returned Wraith?

(go alliteration!)

Oi, that makes me think of English class...

And shush, pickled radish! I'll change it when my internet at home works...

Oh, by the way...

Zink says redone Rand.

A re-run re: re-done Rand.

Right!

Oh how that hurts my eyes...

However, he had me slap together a pretty vicious Revenant, should Rand ever bite the dust...again...

Again.

Grr alliteration!
I had to read both "The narrative Of Fredrick Douglass" and "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek" and had to find rhetorical stratigies on EVERY SINGLE PAGE!

(and don't get me started on Transendentalism)

hehe I guess It couldn't get any worse for the Darkies..

Oh, it could. We could all die in a carfire in Kenya.

Supposing Kenya even exists in Star Wars... You'd die ina speeder-fire...

Not if we entered Star Wars Episode Apple: The Alternate Dimension of Stuff.

Quit bastardizing random stuff that I say

Nein!

Shall we laugh at Zink?

Yes, of course! Mock me! Little do you know that Rand will kill you while you sleep, or while you're in the shower...

Ush, if I could, I would like to see what kind of alterings are involved in my template?

Err, none. It's just conceptual.

so he'll be a normal revenant?

No he won't! This is not difficult, what is wrong with people?

they confused me...so he'll be just as he is now..with only lower dexterity

Yes.

Damn, I wanted him to be completely crippled...

you're still not leading anything