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the valar most like melkor is aule, it states this in the silmarillion, they both enjoyed creating, they both loved praise of their work.
besically they were very much alike
melkor was said to suddenly hate it when others works were praised, and destroyed them

so how did one of these very similar people go bad, and the other not

what does melkor posses in him that aule does not
or what does aule posses that melkor does not??

i'd answer but i have not read this book because no shop in Leek sells it they don't even sell the lotr ttt (book) that is the only book i am missing from my collection so when i get paidi shall get one ebay.

i personally think melkor was in some way based on Macbeth

he was not always evil, nothing BEGINS evil. i believe he fell to jealousy, fear of theother valar and ambition
remember it says in the silmarillion that he wanted to be called lord by all living things, and that was given to manwe as melkor fell out of favour with eru after uprising while trying to prove his power.

when manwe got what melkor wanted, i believe that was begat melkors twist and turn into evil

ok i believe you

Brilliant question


I think it's maybe the fact that Aule doesn't want to rule the things he creates ("I do not desire such lordship" and that he also doesn't only want them for himself but for the joy of creation ("I desire things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ea, which thou hast caused to be. For it seemed to me that there is great room in Arda for many things that might rejoice in it, yet it is for the most part empty still"


It is also stated that an important difference was that Aule did not envy the work of others but instead gave councel, and that he remained "faithful to Eru" (whatever that may mean ), whereas Melkor "spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing, save in mockery of the thought of others, and all their works he destroyed if he could".

nice answer
anybody else want a go at trying to answer it?

On the subject of the Dwarves, I don't believe it was selfish pride that made him do it. I think he made them because he was proud of the skills that Eru had given him, which is a slightly different thing. Also, like with the Feanor situation, he just had an overwhelming desire to create beautiful things (perhaps like a smith would), wheras Melkor or Sauron didn't care much about beauty, they only desired power.

I think to claim Aule, Feanor and the Noldor were just plain bad would be over-simplification in my opinion.

All certainly were free spirits and independent. All also happened to be prideful.

A domininant theme in Tolkien's characters is pride - good pride and bad pride.

Pride leads to the downfall came through time and again. Turin Turambar's pride brought him much grief. Feanor's pride also. Curufin and Celegorm who followed in their father's footsteps, all did so through stiff and unyielding pride amongst other things.

Pride too, arrogance in the extreme, moved Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. It moved the fated nine mortal Men to accept Sauron's rings. It moved Celebrimbor to follow Sauron's teaching in ring-craft and pull away from Galadriel and Celeborn.

The stories are littered with ill-fated pride. Turgon was over prideful in Gondolin and so chose to rather trust to his impregnable city than the warning from Ulmo that first directed him to the safety of Gondolin's site. The result was that pride in the the face of evil magnified the terrible toll.

Thingol was prideful with Beren and later with the Dwarves. The result was his death and the scattering of his people.

There are cases of pride, true pride tempered with humility and compassion, works to steel a character's ability to withstand evil.

So I see it more as an examination of what happens when individuals decide their personal pride and will must prevail against wisdom and the will of their rightful rulers. For Aule it was Eru he defied. So too for Melkor and Saruman. Feanor pridefully defied Melkor but also and more importantly, Manwe. Turin decided to take a bold stance and go after the shadow when he was sheltered in Nargothrond based on his pride in his abilities rather than heed the counsel of caution that had kept the city safe and hidden. Had he heeded, his whereabouts would not had been uncovered and Glaurung's sack of the city and all terrible things that befell afterwards would not have occured.

Wow...I just realized I've strayed too much from the topic. This post became a "pride fest" already..but..'ya know..

What I'm saying is just...I attribute Aule's actions, and the actions of many other characters to such things, rather than a rebellious, troublesome or evil inclinations in their natures.

Issues such as humility, wisdom, compassion, honour, loyality and strength of spirit permeate his work and apply as much to the Valar and Aule as they do to any other character.

Aule is not troublesome by nature. His pride in his ability to create though, does lead him to errors in judgements. Yet had he followed Eru's command when his creation of the Dwarves had been discovered, the Dwarves would not have existed. Pride is a double edged sword, sharp and both treacherous, dangerous and invaluable.

I don't think I made any sense but...too late to delete this post...it's too long already.

From the very beginning, before Ea, Melkor tried to be different. He desired recognition, and when he wasn't given it, he tried to be greater. His desire for power made him jealous of those with it. His jealouscy made him become evil. Aule was never jealous. He wanted to share his work.

well it does specificlly say aule also desired greatly the praise of his peirs as did melkor, the whole i dont think melkor created things for beauty
i dont believe or agree with that
as melkor was not always evil, he was not evil for a long time, in the music his uprising was not one of evil, but of him trying to show himself as powerful and worthy to be king of ea, something he wanted more than anything 'melkor desired to be called lord'

i believe that aule was just better at creating than melkor was, and melkor became jealous and tried to mar the works of aule,
jealousy

which in the words of yoda leads to hate which leads to suffering

I think we should make a thread about Melkor being Evil by Nature or Evil by Will..

*hint, hint*

nature vs nurture

tolkien always said that nothing began as being evil

@Shadowy - then start one *hint*



-
Except for Morgoth.
Tolkien writes that he is totally utterly evil and the source of all evilness, and everything he does it absolutely pure evil I think that was in one of the letters, not sure though...

yeah but when he was FIRST created like the first semi second he was alive
he didnt think 'hehe heeeres jonny!' now did he?

He probably didn't

he was just an individualist ^^

so he is evil because he is different

Melkor, dope or dupe? An interesting question. What are the influences and motivations that caused Melkor to play the sour notes on his Cosmic Tuba? Perhaps he got a few bad pepperonis on the pizza they ordered at choir practice the day before. Indigestion can get anyone out of sorts, not to mention food poisoning. Just think of the peace and harmony that would have arisen on Middle Earth if Domino's had just read the expiration dates on the meat-packages...

Or perhaps Melkor had to stand next to someone who forgot their deodorant that morning. Probably Sauron's least-favorite cousin Herbert (the one who liked to make faces while sticking macaroni noodles into his nose and ears...a disgrace to the entire family). It is impossible to maintain proper breathing control when sitting in the presence of that kind of stink, and so he was perhaps improvising shorter notes in an attempt to keep from breathing the toxic fumes any more than necessary.

If, as some suppose, Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of Eru himself, one has only to look at the silly stuff he sang to wonder whether Melkor might have thought he could write better material. (That could explain why Middle Earth was sometimes such a silly place, and why the singing of the Elves, the Children of Iluvatar, considered by some to be superior poetry and "not to be missed," consists of Bombadillish lyrics such as "Fa la la lally...". Of course, this would suppose that the creature could have more talent than the Creator, which is a logical impossibility.)

On a different note (pun intended), perhaps the name change from Melkor to Morgoth had nothing to do with Feanor and all the rest of that folderol. Perhaps Eru liked classical a-capella choir music, but Melkor decided that he was into black-leather outfits and metal and hi-amp electric guitars. That would give new meaning to his new name -- He wanted more Goth, and less classical.

I'm high right now, sorry.

Oh...my...god...LOL!!!!!
*rollsonfloorlaughing*

shadowy

i pray at your feet

that is HILARIOUS!

Bumping
Let it live

Melkor was the only being in all the cosmos created with such initial stature as to wish on his own to overcome Eru. Aule was lesser in origin so not quite unbalanced enough...

Does anyone know whether Melkor had any maiar created in his following? Or had he missed out on that already.

Your classic....

Btw - the "classical"-thing is even true

Instruments used in the Ainulindale:
Harps
Lutes
Flutes
Organs
and of course the choirs of the Valar....




That would have been a musical catastrophe... *covers ears* - I'm glad that there were some innovative, imaginative and creative people with new ideas, like Melkor, who made the whole thing more interesting

*tries to imagine Melkor as a drummer, Sauron with an e-guitar and Gothmog the bassist --- while Manwe is trying to play his harp*
hysterical

I did actually use to play guitar...
Then i stopped

How do you pronounce Aule? :

The "Au" sounds like "ou" in "sour", NOT like english "au" as in "automatic"; L is not retroflex like in american english, but the normal alveolar liquid with the tongue shortly behind the front teeth; e is eh

Hence

like Owl-eh

Sorry my PC has decided to be weird and doublepost my postings maybe I also clicked to quick

Thanks.

Bumping

aaahh...I remember this thread..LOL..

Hey I don't know what you're talking about cauz I didn't read the first page.

^^read the first page...!

hysterical

I know the answer to that question!!!!
When Melkor and Aule were young they were brothers. One day, daddy Illuvatar gave each one a bowl of pudding. Melkor started to eat it, but Aule built a mountain out of it, so it looked like he had more, which made Melkor jealous. He then destroyed the mountain of pudding and dad came back to see that the little raisins he had put in the pudding became dwarves. He sent Melkor in his room and Aule was kept in Eru's light

Now more serioulsy. Everyone agrees that destroying in easier than making (except sweet love). Melkor just didn't have the will to build like Aule. And that's what seperates them. THE WORK!!!

I forgot to had that those two had the same potential all along, but Aule made a better use of it

I'd say the contrary, Melkor had a lot more potential from the beginning and also made more effective use of his power, just ... less constructive but definitely more effective

Destruction is also some kind of work though, and not an easy one... and Melkor didn't *only* destroy

Right Melkor didn't only destroy (althought what he built would have better been not there), but I didn't say that destroying was an easy job. You said it. I only said that it was easier than building.
Ex: You have a card castle in front of you. Is it easier to destroy it or to make another one that looks the same?
But I agree with you when you said that Melkor had more potential than Aule (a little bit)

In this example, both would represent Morgoth's way of working though.
He has always been trying to imitate what others had created, make something similar only bereaved of its purity - like for example elves <-> orcs, or also the way he appeared, wearing a real physical form, talking in 'language', building castles etcetc.
Destructing is easier than imitating which again is easier than creating, the latter being what Aule did in contrary to Morgoth

That's what I said

laughing bag pretty much, yea only that your phrasing made it look like "building an other one that looks the same" would be what Aule would have dont which isnt the case

No it isn't. I didn't express myself correctly. My fault. You have to know that I'm french so I might make errors like that.