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the Dagor Dagorath, the final battle in which the world shall be cleaved

Fionwe believes the only way he can stop melkor is to use his big badass weapon which all the elves like because its shint, the men like because its shapr, and the dwarves like because it has a nice little gem in the hilt. and the world is cloven.

what does tolkien imply by this? is the man doing what he did with his story of the ent rebeling against industrialism? is he trying to learn us a lesson

will man destroy himself and the world with weapons he created?

*teach

er*

i try to create a discussion and this is what i get

well you always go offtopic so why can't i

because this is my thread

sorry bro'...temptation was too great...

but i will reply thoughtfully and responsibly with respect...later tonight...

erm no idea what you're on about sir....wait you dont deserve that title

are you saying that it was the "ultimate" weapon which everyone liked?

Discos - everyone "should" and "better" of liked the eagles

which book is that in the silmarillion or history of middle earth or everything

theres not really a book about it
just random bits of info chucked around in other books

well then....your point is far more "not" confusing anymore

I believe that summarizes what Tolkien believes in if man continues the way he is. Tolkien in some ways wrote that piece(s) as a metaphor to what he saw as the world he lived in. Man create the weapons, others create that are deadlier than the first whih continues on almost perpetually. Tolkien had little faith in our ability to be less destructive and more creative, but had hope that we could some day attain it.

I agree. I think that if we keep on making bigger and better weapons than everyone else, all we will end up doing is destroying the world and ourselves.

In lord of the rings, THe forging of the rings started out as each of the major races, recieving rings and thus recieving equal power. But, Sauorn was not content with this, and had to make a bigger and better ring so he could destroy everyone else. But, it ended up just destroying himself.

So, If we keep trying to make better or more nucleur weapons, then we will end up destroying ourselves and being corrupted.

So, Saruon, I think your assertion was correct. I think tolkien used that particular part you wrote about in order to represent the bad side of technology, because people tend to only see the good side, and all the benifits that new technology can bring. They never realize that somethings are good, but too much can be bad.









Wow!!! I just re-read that and it is much more than i usually write and much deeper... My brain is tired now....so I'll end here

In a metaphorical sense, the world would be cloven as Arroch stated between two parties or camps if you will...On the one side the complete and utter rule by repression and fear, on the other a belief in the good for and by the people and in harmony with the natural...

Stating that Fionwe needed a bigger and deadlier sword to stop Melkor is a metaphor for the way governments and those that ran it thought at the time of Tolkien's writing...

The idea of the ring in comparison to nuclear weapons is obviously before Tolkien's time so that point would be moot...

It's possible later on in his life someone may have stated a passing comparison, but i hardly doubt that was his(Tolkien) intentions.

He believed the danger to man was not the weapons and the technology but to man himself...and it reflected in his writings...

Rule by repression, I think that's an important phrase here. Tolkien was clearly against the system of only one ruling person - tyrannism - monarchy -, he even stated that he was kinda an anarchist, and personal freedom was important for him. There is little personality among the "evil" side, just masses of orcs (and men etc) following the will of one leader while the "good" ones accomplish their victories and successes by the deeds of each individual being, by free decisions.


It will be man who destroys men, but he will be using a sword, a machine, to do it,
but weapons/machines are neutral, they can be used for good as well as for evil.

That in fact is the beauty of technology...neutral and harmless until that is it is used by humankind...it is how they use that to which it gives the nature of technology...it is neither good or evil but in how you wield it...

a sword can be used to kill, but if one has to it can also be used to till the earth...

the dangers to industrialism although we've reaped the benefits of it years later was the wanton disregard to the environment and to the conditions in which the lower cast had to work them...in that he saw an evil per se that did not benefit anyone but oligarch of society...

the ring could in a way represent what the industrialists wanted at Tolkien's time: power and wealth with little regards to those beneath them...