Greatest Martial Artists

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SpyCspider
Who represents the pinnacle? Here's some I can think of.

D.C.
1. Batman
2. Green Arrow II
3. Lady Shiva
4. Batgirl

Marvel
1. Iron Fist
2. Black Panther
3. Daredevil
4. Electra

I guess Punisher, Captain America, Deadpool, Nick Fury, and Silver Sable are all pretty up there as well

eleveninches
There's that chinese prince master martial artist in marvel as well. I cant remember the guy's name. I think it's shang chi or something similar

Gregory
Well, you missed some (who was that guy Lady Shiva hung around with? Bronze Tiger or something?), but discounting these relatively obscure characters, I'd say your DC list is pretty good. Can't really comment on the Marvel list, not being a fan.

DarkCrawler
What about Vic Sage, The Question?

Wynndar
yea 11in...Shang Chi...he is on the same level as iron fist....I dont think daredevil belongs on the top 4...since Stick's the one who taught him and electra how to fight....hahaha...silver sable? Deadpool?Punisher?my list for marvel:

1) Shang-Chi
2)Iron Fist
3) Stick
4) and then someone from The Hand

Never
Hrm. I do not think that The Hand should be ranked so highly considering Daredevil and crew waded through what, 50 or so - and only lost a few men? Read Frank Miller's run.

No way Iron Fist and Shang Chi are **above** Stick. Shang Chi is perhaps on the same level as Stick; Iron Fist, definitely a eentsy notch below.

Silver Sable is indeed skilled in hand to hand combat wink

Not sure if this list is restricted to ALL practicioners of the artform or if those who solely concentrate on martial arts comprise the list. I will list all (that I can recall) who practice martial arts smile

Marvel (in no particular order):

1. Shang Chi
2. Gamora
3. Champion of the Universe
4. Iron Fist
5. Karnak
6. Moondragon
7. Black Panther
8. Captain America
9. Elektra
10. Bullseye
11. Stick
12. Stone
13. Shaft
14. Star
15. Wolverine
16. Silver Samurai
17. Batroc
18. The Badger
19. Lei Kung
20. Lady Deathstrike
21. Daredevil
22. Ogun

DC: (not too familiar with their martial artists)

1. Karate Kid!!! By ***far*** the very best martial artist. He'd kick Thor's ass WITH his hammer
2. Lady Shiva
3. Batgirl
4. Batman

VENOMfan
well not really sure how to place her but Black Cat is a decent hand to hand fighter not sure if she's par with anybody on that list tho I think she knows Karate and Judo and is a jymnist....

VENOMfan
ah hell I cant belive I spaced this one Blade has got to be a great martial artist right?

Wynndar
hey Never, im not the most well knowledged when it come to the Hand...I jus thought that they would have some really great martial artists since they were like the main enemies of Stick's group of martial artists...yea i wasnt sure about iron fist either...it would make sense that a real asian like Shang Chi would be the best martial artist though...by the way....do u know the name of that crazy blonde guy who fights and kills for sport, that kicked the sh** out of wolverine not too long ago?

Never
Ack, was not trying to condescend, Wynndar - just showing an example of why **I** personally have them much lower as a collective. Also keep in mind that they try to overwhelm Stick and crew via sheer numbers (which should tell you a little bit about their individual skills). I cannot think of the exact issue number, but try the Daredevil (if interested) issue with the yellow cover. You will see Daredevil jumping diagonally downward with tons of arrows being shot upward towards him. #187 or so? OOh no, found it:

http://continuitypages.com/daredevil/daredevil189.jpg

Two more excellent goodies:

http://continuitypages.com/daredevil/daredevil174.jpg

http://continuitypages.com/daredevil/daredevil175.jpg

The best one that I recall was...hmm...Kit-something? Will have to dig the comic up later. Anywho, The Hand resurrected this character to...God, resurrect Elektra I think it was? Been a minute since I read the issue. He was pretty okay but he got chopped in half I think.

Not sure who the crazy blonde is you are referencing sad

Darth Jello
Purely based on martial arts skills:

1. Ogun, Lady Shiva, Kirigi
2. Stone, Stick, Star, etc., Iron Fist
3. Elektra, Daredevil, Lord Shingen, Erynys
4. Bullseye, Batman, Silver Sammurai, Wolverine, Matsuo Tsurayaba, Kingpin, Black Panther, White Tiger
5. Typhoid Mary, Deadpool, Silver Sable, Robin, Nightwing, Ammo, Bullet, Punisher
6. Average Superhero

Irish Wolverine
Mr. X was the one you were thinking about, the crazy blonde guy

Wynndar
thanks Irish Wolvie!!!!....yea Mister X would be up there

Ninjamaster
Deadpool's pretty mean i seen a comic where he bust Wolvie's ass up pretty bad with some neat one liners to top it off!

Batman has got to be the greatest i mean he knows every single damn fighting art there is to know right...

Wynndar
yea but compared to Shang-Chi, WOlverine and Deadpool r both just fodder

Never
LoL, Ogun is not above Lady Shiva by any stretch of the imagination.

Kirigi? The guy The Hand resurrected? Above Stone and Stick? Stone who can only be hurt (well, "penetrated" but that sounds...gross) from...behind? (wow, it just got worse)

Ogun, above Iron Fist? He was Wolverine's sensei. Good God that list is...interesting.

*shrug*

Jamaican
___________________________________________
Purely based on martial arts skills:
1. Ogun, Lady Shiva, Kirigi
2. Stone, Stick, Star, etc., Iron Fist
3. Elektra, Daredevil, Lord Shingen, Erynys
4. Bullseye, Batman, Silver Sammurai, Wolverine, Matsuo Tsurayaba, Kingpin, Black Panther, White Tiger
5. Typhoid Mary, Deadpool, Silver Sable, Robin, Nightwing, Ammo, Bullet, Punisher
6. Average Superhero
___________________________________________

Just wondering, wouldn't Batman be at least in the 2nd line of Martial Artists? If memory serves me correctly, i think Never posted ( a couple weeks ago, might have been in the DD VS Batman topic) that Batman had recently downed Lady Shiva? Could be wrong. Ill have to check on that...

Jamaican
Hmm. Couldn't find it, maybe i misinterpreted something. But i still THINK that Batman is better than the people in the 4th line. Now that i've done some research i realize he prob. doesnt belong in the 2nd, but i think in the 3rd...

But it makes you wonder, why isn't a man that knows over a 100 diff. Martial Art styles ranked higher??

Wynndar
i dont think there is much use in mixing MU and DC in this thread....

Gregory
He did, in the new Superman/Batman series. The general consensus seems to be that Batman is not actually better than Lady Shiva, even if he beat her in one fight. The general consensus also seems to be that Batgirl is better than Lady Shiva because she beat her in one fight. I wouldn't worry too much about it; you'll just give yourself a headache.

VENOMfan
yeah we should always try to keep these list's seperate. a Marvel and DC thread both about hand to hand fighting skill.

I cant really coment on the top rung all Ive even herd is that guys like Black Panther are in the A-league but Im pretty lost about the character's themselves. but the general feel im getting is that Blade, Punisher, Black Cat are probably bottom rung.

even tho Blade is still pretty formidable with his other talents.

Never
No disrespect to Darth, but that list is far from accurate.

Lady Shiva is still regarded as being a hair better than Batgirl. Put it this way - if they squared off 10 times, I **think** the general consensus is that LS would win 6 to 6.5 times out of 10.

Re: Batman, correct. Batman is not regarded as being a better combatant than LS by any means of the imagination.

Jamaican, Batman is indeed substantially below the likes of Stick and Iron Fist. Lady Shiva is regarded as being on the level of Stick, IF, and Shang Chi. Kirigi? No clue why he is up there. Ogun is a joke, Wolverine is NOT on Black Panther's level, Nightwing is better than Robin, et cetera.

Jamaican
Gregory and Never thanks for the info. Good to have people on the board that know what they're talking about. Another question though, when did Batgirl become so good? Who trained her? And if she's on or around the same level as Lady Shiva, would that mean that she would beat Batman?

Gregory
Batgirl was trained by Lady Shiva herself; the price of the training was that she would fight Shiva to the death after the training was complete. Batgirl beat Lady Shiva (by exploiting her death wish), but did not kill her. She might be able to beat Batman, too (it's hard too say for certain; she beat Shiva by exploiting a weakness Batman doesn't have, so it's not a matter of pure skill).

Darth Jello
my reasoning behind putting members of the chaste so high up (including elektra and DD) is that they are in a mystical order charged with defending the earth from and inhuman monster that commands the hand called the beast (who based on appearance and smell is either from limbo or is one of mephisto's buddies). DD and E's martial arts skills are at a level where they can best several highly skilled opponents at the same time, transfer their ki to other beings, communicate telepathically, and exert their will over others. You don't see DD doing this much cause he doesn't really know how to do it voluntarily. You don't see bats or wolvie doing this kind of thing either. any time that E or DD have been beaten, they've either been in a state of mental psychosis, extremely weakened, or caught completely by surprise.

Never
Hmm, was Elektra weakened, caught by surprise, or hypnotized when Bullseye killed her?

Pretty sure that The Beast is not related to Mephisto; will double check.

Elektra and Daredevil can transfer their chi to other human beings? Have not read any new DD or Elektra, but DD was **kind of familiar** with the rudimentaries of manipulating energy. He did it when they were trying to resurrect Elektra. Stick taught him, of course.

Elektra could communicate telepathically and even subvert others to a degree (she did it to Garrison in Elektra:Assassin), but I have never seen DD do it.

LS vs. Batman...no clue who would win it. Do you guys mean in straight h2h? I would be quick to point out that Batman cheats, but so does LS.

Never
Am sure some sandy vaginas will emerge and moan whenever I mention Batman defeating anyone WITH PREP TIME, yet I stumbled upon this interesting response by an editor of DC Comics in a thread that asked who would win if "The Big 7" were unleashed on each other. The Big 7 being Aquaman, Batman, Superman, Wonderman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern. I also once commented that Wonder Woman was right behind Superman in strength. It is mentioned here again (for anyone interested).

"Superman has killed too, mind you. Not just Diana and Arthur.

Unless they are near water, I see Aquaman going down first. Sorry Orin.

Flash is next....superspeed can't stand up to mental assaults from J'onn.

Kyle may have the most powerful weapon in the universe, but Wonder Woman, Superman, J'onn, and Batman all coming at him at once? Sorry Kyle.

By the way, Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman. She is second to him in terms of strength. Him and J'onn go at her at once and she goes down. Plus as someone pointed out she is vulnerable to mental attacks.

Supes and J'onn are the same strength level, plus J'onn has telepathy and molecular manipulation. Superman goes down.

Now it's a toss up between J'onn and Batman. J'onn has all the power, but Batman has all those brains plus those nifty gadgets. We've seen Bats take down the entire JLA by himself. In the end, with prep time, Batman. Without prep time, Manhunter."

FrothByte
that is IF the big 7 actually followed the order of the fight stated. but if wonderwoman, superman, and j'onn decided to go after batman first... no contest.

Gregory
If it's no contest, how come Batman has beaten Superman and been such a good match for Wonder Woman that she uses him as a sparring partner?

Darth Jello
i don't mean the x-men's beast, i mean the demon that leads the hand. and elektra was surprised and completely unprepared for bullseye. she had no idea of his perfect aim and really fell when he slashed her throat with the playing card.

Arachnoidfreak
i understand comic books are fiction, but sometimes its just...stupid. i can hack away at my skin with a playing card for an hour and not get anything more than a red mark and some irritation. perfect aim has nothing to do with making a playing card sharper or thinner or whatever else

Darth Jello
it's all about force and aim, a tornado can drive an egg through a brick wall without breaking the egg.

FrothByte
batman in my opinion is tooooo overrated. yes i agree that with prep time batman can pretty much hold his own with most earth superheroes, but having wonder woman as a sparring partner?

batman for me is possibly the most unbelievable character ever created. at least when you give someone powers they have a good excuse to be able to do the things they do. but for super smart, super rich, peak human athlete to be able to go toe to toe with superman and wonderwoman........ i know a dozen people will probably pounce on me for this, but i really think batman is much too overrated. i still think batman cud beat wolverine tho.

VENOMfan
I think Bat's can take Wolverine

Gregory
Oh, Batman did lose to Wonder Woman when they went toe to toe for real in A League of One (sans prep time). I'm just pointing out that they're not totally mismatched (even in that story, it was a pretty good fight).

Arachnoidfreak
ive always thought Wonder Woman's weakness was...ermm...odd, to say the least. wasnt i surprised to see those early comics with her all tied up...

FrothByte
that's why i think batman is too overrated. don't get me wrong, i like batman a whole lot more than either superman or wonderwoman, but i really think its so f*ckin impossible how he's able to compete with powerhouses like them. i mean fighting toe to toe? im sorry, i know you won't agree with me, but it kinda pisses me off to see batman get so buffed up more than what is possible.

SpyCspider
Just in case some people were confused (like me a lot), this is Batgirl aka Cassandra Cain, not Batgirl aka Barbara Gordon. Molded by her dad David Cain to predict an enemy's attacks, she was denied verbal stimuli. Shiva re-trained her after she gained communication skills but lost a bit of her combat skills.

I know you probably knew that but Cassandra is relatively new to people who don't follow comics and are still thinking Barbara as Batgirl (ie., animated series depiction).

SpyCspider
ahhahah yea, there's no way Batman can do all the things comics allow him to do...and STILL, say "he's just human." But that's what makes him so popular. It's quite the impossible contradiction.

Irish Wolverine
Elektra was caught by surprise, but was at first able to fight him off, so I don't think him sneaking up on her really had too much to do with it.

Arachnoidfreak
yea, tornadoes drivinf toothpicks straight through trees and whatnot, but last i heard, Bullseye was human and couldnt move at 300 mph(wind speed for a tornado)

Gregory
Actually, I do agree with you, at least to an extent. I blame the JLA for all this. Batman would have been invaluable to them as a stratagist, but instead, the writers insist on having him fight alongside the rest of the JLA--so Batman had to be buffed up absurdly, to keep him from being killed.

who?-kid

Darth Jello
look, suspend your disbelief for a moment, if bullseye can kill a woman 300 feet away through a plate glass window with a toothpick, he can severly injure elektra with a playing card. I mean, the guy discovered his talent in the military. he ran out of bullets, so he just freaked out and lobbed his machine gun, killing 3 guys with it.

who?-kid
So somebody from DC Comics said that ? A person who works for DC Comics, the company responsible for the sometimes laughable plot twists thanks to the overrated prep-time of their most popular hero, said those things about their most popular hero ? This person, who is of course objectiveness incarnated, said that ?

Think it through, and you will see the mistake you made.

(I'll give you a hint : he WORKS for DC Comics).

Gregory
Just like Punisher and every other human hero. You more or less have to suspend disbelief in that area.

Darth Jello
punisher's a whole different story, he's been dead before.

Gregory
A bad choice of example does not invalidate my general point.

who?-kid
True, you have a point there (the Punisher thing you mentioned), but then again, I'm not too fond of him either. He has the same "problem" as Batman : he should be dead a long time ago (and stayed dead).

Of course, I realize very well it's comics we're talking about, and real-life-rules don't apply to them. But still...

Arachnoidfreak
killing someone through glass with a toothpick is even more ridiculous than the playing card thing. but then again, i do understand that all comic books are just fantasy.

Never
Hmmm, how is being surprised an excuse? She was surprised and completely unprepared for Wolverine in Elektra and Wolverine but she kicked his ass with zero problems. Bullseye could not touch Daredevil with his throwing implements, could he?

Perfect aim is not a problem if one can dodge them, no? The playing card came very late in the fight anyway.

I know which Beast you are referencing wink

Froth, that was of course one scenario. In the majority of the responses, Batman was one of the last two standing.

As regards to Batman being overrated because he could go "toe to toe" with Superman and Wonder Woman, er...no way in hell he could do that without a CONSIDERABLE amount of help, so it is even accurate to suggest that Batman could go toe to toe with any of them?

What so many of you forget is that Batman knows Superman through and through. He KNOWS Superman will NEVER go all out against him, and he would use that against him.

But this is a martial arts thread; will not derail it with Batman related banter.

Who-kid, do you really think I give a shit about your stillborn attempts at articulating a cogent response? I mean, really?

DarkCrawler
Have you ever heard about Ricky Jay?
Let me quote this source:


If you can throw a car in watermelon rind, I am sure that you can break human skin. It is all about technique.

Wynndar
damn...i need to learn that trick

DarkCrawler
I can throw card in newspaper. And get it stuck in there.

WWestFlashFan
i can make them flutter...............

who?-kid

Never
Son you've never corrected me. LoL @ the clueless castaway who could "care less about the opinion of others" - getting a bit lonesome over there in the corner with your dunce hat, isn't it?

Arachnoidfreak
skin is alot tougher than watermelon rind. i can rake my nails on a watermelon once and the red part will show. i can rake my nails on my skin several times and theres not even a red mark. comparing a fruit to human flesh is...i dont even know the word for it. oh yes i do, its stupid.

that throwing the card into a watermelon thing is impressive though. great way to make money on bets big grin

VENOMfan
you would be suprised how hard you can throw somthing without trying.

youve played darts right? next time you do instead of giving it a little toss really put the steriods/technique into it and you can put a blunt dart halfway into a way

tkitna
Interesting, but it contradicts itself. Wonder Woman is second to Superman in strength, but yet J'onn and Superman are the same strength? Why isnt WW second to Superman AND J'onn? (I always thought that Supes was a bit stronger than J'onn. You learn something new everyday)

Also, was Batman in the corner drinking coffee after they fell GL? I guess the response was that he allowed the heavy weights to take care of themselves as he watched and studied. Oh brother. I also guess that the other six JLA members were retarded as it was stated that Batman has taken down the JLA before,,,,,,,,dont you think they would concentrate on him first? I know its all nit-picking, but it hardly seems like an accurate scenario.

Oh well, back to the topic, Never an honest question to you,,,,,,why do you look at Ogun as a joke? I only know of him through the older limited series, but I thought he was portrayed as a pretty mean martial artist. I realize Wolverine killed him in the end, but Wolverine was truly afraid of him. He ran like a scared school girl. Wolverine isnt the baddest cat as we all know, and he's been taken many times,,,,,,,but he doesnt usually scare very easily.

Darth Jello
what i meant before was, punisher actually died, then heaven rejected him

Arachnoidfreak
heaven rejected him? i gotta get that comic. reminds me of lobo

Arachnoidfreak
thats different. a dart has a point. even a dull dart has one point where all the force goes, making penetration easy. an object doesnt have to be sharp to get through a watermelon(i can push a quarter into a watermelon) but it does to penetrate skin.

VENOMfan
No what I ment was a dart with the tip completley removed, Imagine a unsharped pencil with a flat tip.

FrothByte
Most top shaolin monks are taught how to throw a needle through a glass window. it makes a hole the size of a marble in the window. some chinese assassins have been known to possess this talent. using needles like bullets.

Arachnoidfreak
i wont believe that shit until i see it.

FrothByte
i think a guy was interviewed in ripley's believe it or not who could throw needles through glass.

Never
How is it contradictory? He simply typed that she is second to Superman as opposed to typing Superman AND J'onn. Considering Superman and J'onn are equal, isn't that self-explanatory...?

No, current Superman is not stronger and has said on many an occasion that J'onn would best him. J'onn is far too versatile.



You are assuming that this scenario follows current DC continuity (or that they are aware that he created protocols already although they were secret until Ra's Al Ghul discovered/happened upon them). Who is more of a threat at the outset? Batman? No, the three powerhouses are the biggest threats to one another. Not sure why it is not logical to conclude that they would focus on one another initially. Ever seen a Royal Rumble on WWF, for example? More often than not (hence him posting ONE scenario), all shoot for the "big guns" first.



"Older limited series." Kitty Pryde vs. Wolverine?

As regards to his martial arts prowess...when compared to the likes of Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Stick, Stone, Shaft, Star, Karate Kid, Gamora, Karnak, Elektra, Daredevil, Lady Shiva, Batgirl...yes, his accomplishments pale in comparison. Wolverine killed him, and Wolverine falls below everyone mentioned above. What more is there to say...?

Darth Jello
just asking cause i don't know their true skill, but what about the mandarin, silver sammurai, and matsuo tsurayaba?

Never
Mandarin, if I recall correctly, is the character with the rings? Scientific genius, not a martial arts threat at all.

Silver Samurai? Decent, but does not deserve mention with the elite by any stretch of the imagination. He ran with Viper.

I am not familiar with Matsuo.

Darth Jello
Matsuo Tsurayaba is a wolverine villian and apparently, the supreme leader of the hand.

tkitna
This is the problem with all of these versus threads. The continuity is hardly ever established and you end up trying to think of every possible variable known in the last 40 years of comics and so forth. The initial reading stated that Batman had taken down the JLA before,,,,thats what I based my ideas upon. I agree with you about the heavyweights concentrating on each other initially. Why? Because Batman is thought to pose no threat what so ever to them. Another reason he is so overrated. I'm just saying that if Batman had taken down the JLA before and they were aware of it (or even aware that he had a means to defeat them on a solo basis), i'd be betting that they took him out first.

Never
I see where you're coming from.

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