Vala - Lazy or Just Don't Care?

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Discos
Ponders me that the Vala did eventually get the fingerout and capture Melkor, but why the hellb loody not Morgoth

Vala - lets leave it to the elves,we dont use middle earth much these days except from Aula & Yavanna

this can probably be explained simple or through a simple mindless "i dont know" (you know who you are NON book readers)

The vala bassically have the power to do anything and yet they didnt want to invade Angband

they left it in the hands of morgoth as a barron waste land....fools

Discos
EDIT: I forgot to add the "r" at the end for VALAR.....forgive me sirs

Nienna
Really, I don't think that the Valar didn't care. I have to go really soon, so this'll be really short...

The Valar did care.

I mean, even if not in a big way, at least Elbereth put Earendil in the sky. I'm not sure there was much they could do.

With Melkor, it was sort of the Valar's war, but Sauron was the Elves' and Men's War...(Or so it seemed to me.)

Tell me if I'm wrong in any of this...pweeze...big grin

shadowy_blue
I think the real problem of the Valar doesn't have anything to do with being lazy nor not caring about Middle-earth. I think their problem comes from the lack of understanding and comprehension of Melkor's way of thinking and what he's going to do. My point is that they did not do such a good job dealing with the themes of Melkor. Iluvatar allowed things to stand as they were because He could create greater glory through them. Yes, they created the world, but that was not the problem. The problem was a lack of understanding of their enemy and of their charges. I understand that their limited understanding of the inhabitants of Ea is because they were the Theme of Iluvatar alone. However, their lack of understanding of Melkor is a tremendous problem on their part. In order to successfully defeat an enemy you need to understand them, how they think, what they are going to do, and how you can effectively counter their moves. Yes, they ultimately defeated Morgoth but only after much ruin, loss, and suffering. And evil still continues. The best wars (aside from those that don't happen at all) are those that are as brief as possible. The war between Morgoth and the Valar went on for centuries, the Valar seemed unable (or unwilling) to strike a decisive blow. When they did eventually defeat him the Valar had him penned up, but then turned him loose. Big mistake. None of this is intended to say that anyone in their position would have done any better. Depending on your view of fate in Middle-earth, one could be led to believe that this was all determined beforehand to show that Iluvatar is the only One who gets it right all the time.

I'd add to that the Valar feared to attempt to wrest control of Middle-earth again by force as they did when they overthrew Utumno in the Ages of the Trees to the aid of the Elves. In that war Middle-earth was broken and ruined in many places and the Valar feared to do that to mankind who were acknowledged to be 'more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance.'

Now, for the Third Age...

Eru, helped in a singular, very important way. It was Eru who sent Gandalf back from his death and gave him greater powers and enlarged his role. Eru does not interfere in the events of Arda often either: only in this instance and in the destruction of Ar-Pharazon's fleet and Numenor.

The Valar's method of helping in the War against Sauron was by sending the Istari. Apparently realizing that in previous instances they had aided the Children of Iluvatar too greatly and directly, and at great cost to the land of Middle-earth, they decided upon a more subtle strategy. Thus, the Istari, or wizards, came in the shape of old men (and were only Maiar) who could not use their full power and were to help the battle from behind the scenes, more or less, rather than fighting Sauron one-on-one. Let's also not forget the Eagles, who were the emissaries of the Lords of the West, and also a sign of "renewed hope and strength." The Ainur also have some subtle involvements by sending prophetic dreams to some of the characters that would help them later in the story.

I'm sure Tulkas, Eonwe, Manwe, and Ulmo would've been able to take Sauron. They could have kicked Sauron's arse and shoved his Ring up it in about 5 seconds flat, but why would they?

Morgoth was a fight that belonged to the Valar. Sauron was a different matter. Sure, the Valar could've sent their forces to dispose of Sauron quickly, but why?

Middle-earth had to prove itself. The Istari were sent to guide Middle-earth; to impart wisdom - not to face-off with Sauron and do all of the fighting for them. Middle-earth would've gained nothing, and another evil would've arisen for them to contend with. Middle-earth cries to Aman. The Valar save the day again. Another evil comes. Middle-earth cries again...get the point? If the Valar had to save the people of Middle-earth, they'd never learn the importance of sticking together and keeping hope. There'd be no point in Middle-earth existing if the people there never learned how to defeat evil. Eru and the Valar seemed to let the people in the Hither Lands fend for themselves, but they were merely allowing them to fight and live and choose for themselves, making mistakes and mending them and making them again. A mother doesn't go on dressing her child after he's grown; eventually he must tie his own shoes, even if he ties them in knots.

smile

Phoenix
Well, we have to remember that the Valar are not human or even Elvish - the concerns of Middle-earth do not apply to them.

Do they even understand the concept of time?

Also, if they solved every single problem Middle-earth faces, what would become of free will?

The races of Middle-earth have to be able to survive by themselves. They cannot turn to the Valar to take care of them everytime something goes wrong.

Sauron
the valar actually didnt care
they were sick of middle eartha nd all its troubles, caused nothing but trouble
so they stayed out of it

Fëanor
they have cared, but with a hands off approach after that debacle in the first age(?) when they threw down Morgoth and half of Beleriand fell to the sea...

Discos
ah cheers for that post shadowy,

I see the point of sauron and the third age....cheers for clearing it up

however my point on Morgoth is still un-answered, I was merely asking why they took so long to eventually defeat/capture him in the first place. It took an Age to he was finally defeated

I am not saying they didn't do anything, as shadowy said they did have the eagles,wizards and send gandalf back.

I am currently watching FOTR just now and noticed that Saruman's friendship to Gandalf is weak, like he is sort of mocking him.....why did he get the high order title?

Phoenix
I seem to remember from something I read that it was offered at first to Gandalf, but he refused it...

Sauron
no more people voted saruman than gandalf
but galadriel said gandalf should be head
and saruman...'did not foget it'

saruman is actually scared of gandalf....i recomend you read unfinished tales and all about the third age in there...some very good stuff

Discos
you would like that woundn't ya

Fëanor
i didn't realize the valar ran a democratic form of government where one must vote to be in a high office of sort...

Discos
lol void no they aint,

Manwe knew he was most brightess,noble and powerful of the Valar so to speak and used that to his own gain and became a somewhat pr*ck

Discos - least he created ye olde Thoronodr

Fëanor
don't tell thor that...he'll get a big head stick out tongue

I am a Sock
bumping this topic

Discos
well seeing as I started the topic I will continue it for ya AE,

do you think Vala knew what was going on in Middle Earth ie that Gondor was being attacked?

oh wait, i suppose they did, they did send Gandalf back so they must see and know all.......ah well that brings me to my next thingy stick out tongue

I have a fanfic idea in my head, it is that "the secret weapon" of the Valar comes to middle earth and is bloody un-defeatable. He has been trained and skilled and mastered by all 14 Vala's and is the ultimate most greatest most strongest warrior in Arda (barring the valar and Eru)

Discos - his name is "Discos" yes

shaber
Didn't Melkor do something that stopped them from interfering with him directly when he first descended to Earth?

I am a Sock
I don't know about that.


The Valar left ME to its own fate. They din't abandon it, they did help out a couple of time (War of Wrath and sending the Istari)

Discos
The Valar left middle earth to its fate due to the fact of the people who vanished to middle earth with Feanor and whatnot

If i can remember right enough?

Agent Elrond
Rethinking this, the Valar weren't lazy and they did care. After the trees were destroyed, Feanor thought they wouldn't do anything, but they did. They made the Sun and Moon, and started the First Age.

What seems wierd is when the trees are destroyed, the Silmarils stolen, and Finwe killed, the Valar seem to do nothing, this pisses Feanor off and u know what happens.

Of course, the easy explaination is if the Valar did do something right away, then there would be no story, and that would be boring.

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