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One thing that struck me about Zion was not just the equality of the races but also between the sexes. I don't think that I have seen that in a film before and it certainly isn't the case in the modern world.

I remember reading a review of Reloaded in a newspaper and the critic seemed uncomfortable with the high level of ethnic or urban population in Zion. (Someone who no doubt took create comfort in the term 'ethnic MINORITIES'.)

Now that we know that the machines were not the 'bad guys'. Was part of the reason why some people wanted out of the matrix was because of the inequality of the matrix and man's inhumanity to man?

Equally was the reason why humans rejected the first matrix was because the machines had created a perfect and equal society?

Are Zion's true and new enemies not the machines but the humans who look to enslave and subjigate, people who don't look like them, women of any race and machines?

Reduce that to factoids.

Call me stupid but what are factoids?

Simplify your original post as much as possible so that we can understand it.

FAT KID!!!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_100.gif

Hey, Numo...people were uncomfortable with the fact that most of Zion was black whereas most of the matrix was white because the matrix is like suburbia in the city whereas Zion is the slum. they thought it was a political statement.

No matter what you do, there will always be someone who thinks that SOMETHING is racist. It's really getting sickening. Some of the heads of equal rights for Blacks and other minorites are even saying, suck it up. This is one of those moments...People need to chill.

Blacks are traditinally better dancers and can jump higher and look cooler doing it...Especially with dreadlocks. That whole Zion scene was dancing and jumping and looking cool so, as a white person, I'm not offended that they didn't put a bunch of no-rhythm whities in the Zion party scene(arguably one of the coolest of the movie). Why would blacks be offended that they aren't in the fake world? I don't get it...

What about the love for the hispanics? The only hispanic in the movie got killed in the first 30 minutes of the first.

Do I cry when movies like "Friday" are 99.9999999999% black? No. I watch them and laugh. They need to watch the Matrix and think.

Point blank, suck it up. It's a movie.

It seems many things can be subject to misinterpretation including my post so let me try to clear it up. Here we go.

What I was trying to say was that Zion seemed to be based on the premise that everyone was equal. When I spoke of the modern world I was talking about the world we live in today and not the matrix.

However history is alot like physics; events will continue to remain the same or on the same path until acted upon by an external force. In other words the matrix represents the world as it is today with all of its inequality. I did not have a problem with this at all.

What I was saying was that in all of our discussions we have not dealt with the fact that humans did not respect the wishes of the machines request or right to determine their own destiny because humans have for so long have had difficulty reaching equality within its own society.

Greater reflecting the various grotesqueries of our own natures.

Numo -- I think that your point is an important one. The equality of people in Zion IS an important aspect of the movie -- as one piece of evidence note that Cornel West, a leading authority on issuses of racism in America and professor of African American studies at Princeton, is one of the "actors" who plays a member of the Zion council. Someone like this would not have been asked to participate, and would not have agreed, if casting of minorities and the presence of strong female characters had been only a "movie gimmick".

It is indeed surprising that in Zion humans have managed to achieve so much more equality than is present in the matrix OR in our world -- it is human nature (one of the "grotesqueries" for people to try to feel better about themselves by putting down other people/entities (including the machines), either on an individual or societal level. How did Zion manage to achieve this?

Your idea that people who do not accept the inherent inequality of the matrix/our world are more likely to reject the matrix is an interesting explanation -- only people with open minds get to Zion, leaving those predisposed to racism, sexism, "other grotesqueries", to exist in their pods.

In fact, one could say that the machines are helping the human race AND helping themselves by this selection process -- the subset of people of who end up in Zion are both less likely to kill each other, ensuring the future of the human race, AND to be more open minded to the machines, than the rest of the human race in the pods.

One could even imagine that this selection process was even one of the purposes of the subjugation of humans. I'm not arguing that it was the PRIMARY purpose, but it is a useful outcome that may be very intentional.

We will see how all this resolves (I guess) in the TMO civil war.. clearly there are still SOME people in Zion in whom "the grotesqueries of human nature" are still intact.

Oh my God BioLogos, you sooooooo better said that than me. I'm speechless.

But yes the matrix is like a selection process akin to selecting which people when they die are fit to enter Heaven. And it is right that they remain in the matrix so that they can't do any more harm to evolved humans, machines or the planet, just each other which creates the environment ripe for the people who feel the 'splinter' in their mind, that there is something wrong with the world (matrix), to seek to leave it.

There black people in the fake world, and not just blacks. to say that the only people that are black and/or other race is marginally unfair to say the least. There was Ballard, Ghost and Ajax to name but a few. How does that mean that there are no black/other nationality in the fake world?

Btw this is directed at Xeous.

To show how good the Matrix sequels are: when I have to go to the toilet in a film, if the film is an engaging one I can usually hold on, but at that point in that film I just gave up and walked out!

I don't really understand what you're saying. There were hardly any black/hispanics/asians in the Matrix(Jacked in). Most (90%) were freed. The ratio is completly opposite for whites, 90% were in the Matrix("Trapped" minds) and 10% were freed.

And thanks to a few recent posts, I see that this thread isn't about what I've mentioned.

Numo- thanks for your enthusiasm!

Anyone who has doubts about the philosophical importance of the existence of equality between races (and sexes) in Zion needs to remember that the whole reason that the war started was that humans did not recognize the machines as "people", discriminated terribly against them, and eventually tried to kill them all (for anyone who hasn't seen it, this is in The Animatrix).

It is obvious that similar things have happened MANY times in our history when humans decide that other humans who differ from them in some minor way are not "people". By the way, if you happen to think that such extremes are only "history", check out what is going on in Sudan right now...

What's the running time of "Animatrix?" Surely to treat machines in this way is a good thing as it is the most effective way of bringing different humans together? I don't know why we're wired that way, but we are!

Yes the belief that everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others is a persistent theme within human history...unfortunately.

It could be said that we do not strive for equality but for others to subjugate.

Oops sorry Xeous (or however u spelt is im to lazy to scroll up again) i thought u were refering to the plug ins that were unplugged already, not the ones (that we dont ever see) that are still plugged in.

*goes back to skulking around in the shadows*

Classic example of missing the point or not liking it I don't know.

However the people of Zion weren't all black but it was representative of the world population. People of colour (in that I include as well as though of African origin, hispanics, asians and far eastern people) are the majority in world population...no matter how often there are referred to in the West as 'ethnic minorities'.

Many people in the black community don't seem to be offended. Most of the people that get angry about Zion are White. It almost seems as if the white people get nervouse when they see those amounts of people of color.

Some people take a great deal of comfort in the term ethnic minorities.

When i saw that the liberated people of Zion that i was expected to care about were a bunch of vacant looking dancers who liked to go to clubs i lost all interest in this ridiculous shitty franchise.

It did have a good positive race message tho - I didnt care what colour they were - black or white i wanted them all to die.