Bush calls for gay marriage ban

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ash007
President Bush proposes a constitutional amendment - the first for many years - to prohibit same-sex unions.

Ok guys what do you think i know we had threads about this before but they were closed becuase people started to insult each other lets keep this clean and nice please smile

I think gay couples should be allowed to marry. When two people love each other they should be able to tie the knot regardless of their gender. I challenge anyone to give me one good, rational reason why this should not be the case. The religious beliefs of the few should not control the law.


Ok thats all

please keep it clean and hopefully the mods will be nice enough not to close it smile

The Force
yes! rock rock rock


Go bush go bush

The Force
but it's just like bush said, marraige started with religion, and marraige was between a man and a woman, and that's were it will stay, if you change the rules you will violate the sanctity of marraige.

ash007
ok but if two people love each other and they want to spend rest of there lives together shouldn't they be allowed to marry

dragonpisces272
wait, a little off topic - did you read this in yahoo? big grin

sandman26
i agree with bush marriage is a holy matter

ash007
naa read it on CNN

The Force
they do not have to marry, they can spend their lives together as girlfriends or boyfriends, marraige is between a man and a woman

you can't eat your drink and you can't drink you food, unless you make something (or change a law) that will allow you to do that.
If you didn't get that then i'll try to explain in with different things

The Force
yes

Raz
Yes, but thats by YOUR definition of marriage.

Marriage should be a union between two loving couples, be they hetrosexual or homosexual.

ash007
indeed

i mean thats the right thing to do, things are changing?

If people love each other even if they are gay why shouldn't they get married.

It just makes it legal

Raz
exactly marriage isn't about sexual orientation, it's about an official union between couples.

not allowing homosexuals, who have no choice over their sexuality, would be plain discrimination.

The Force
no raz that's not my definition, that's the original definition, the first defintion, but now ppl are trying to change that

Raz
Were there homosexual couples when this definition was concieved?

ash007
indeed

I mean if Bush does Ban gay marriages we will go back as a society.

People have to accept that there are alot Gays out there who love each other and want to get married

The Force
not couples... but there were just homosexuals, it's even in the bible, it was the city of Sodom and Gomorrah

Raz
Yes and slaves were a common then aswell. Things change, we move on and we accept.

ash007
yeah ok i respect your religion

but what if some people dont support your religion

whats wrong with them getting married

WindDancer
Most ppl accept the idea of "Traditional Marriages" which means a man and woman unified as a couple, and produce more members of society. The way I see is if gay couples contribute to the commonwealth of society led them get married. But if they don't take it seriously, then forget it. Marriage is a serious thing, and should be taken seriously.

ash007
yeah but most people dont even take marrigae seriously.
look at Britney

The Force
that wasn't religion that was history

but if that change is a change that is wrong ppl will fight for the old becuase the old was right

Raz
Old is not always right. Take my example of slavery. It was wrong, it was opposed it was defeated.

WindDancer
Well, you do expect things like that from celebreties (more publicity) but I'm taking more about ppl in general. If gays take marriage seriously then let then have it. I don't aprove of gay marriages if it is only just to make a statement to everyone.

ash007
yes i know for a fact that you The Force is black

so how would you feel if you were being treated as a slave
becasue in the oldern days they used to do it
and they used to discrinate

Viper
I'm with Bush on this one. Don't allow gays to marry, but offer civil unions. They get the same benefits just without the title.

The Force
that's why no one fought for the old way, the new way proved better

Linkalicious
i fail to see a compeling arguement to support bush's decision to ban gay marriage.

It stopped being about religion a long time ago. Marriage servers far more financial and social purposes than it does religious purposes.

You get taxed differently, insurance rates change, credit status changes, and a lot more things in society have to do with marriage.

I personally don't like the idea of being gay. I don't descriminate upon an individual by their sexual preference...but in genereal, i don't like gays.

Viper
Maybe I'm wrong but didn't half the country fight for the old way?

And sorry if you were being sarcastic wink

Linkalicious
yeah....lotsa people fought for "the old way." But eventually narrow minded people opened up their eyes and their minds and did the right thing. I think that's what's going to happen here with gay marriages.

If the amendment passes...it will be fought against. Eventually, maybe in a month, maybe in several years...people will realise gays right to marriage and they will be able to do so if they see fit.

Ushgarak
Well, on a point of historical accuracy, very few Southerners fought for the principle of retaining slavery. Not a great surprise as the slaveowners were exempt from service. Most of the Southern soliders could not care less- they fought because they saw themselves as being invaded.

The Force
i meant fought and won for the new

Viper
It wasn't so much that these people opened their eyes...more like they lost a war and were forced to give up slavery. That's kind of the reason you had, and still do have, major racism in the south.

Ushgarak
Yes, took a good 100 years to sort that out...

Howveer, can someone fill me in about what Bush is doing here? is he specifically making an anti-gay marriage law or is he closing a legal loophole or something?

The Force
that will like never happen, you going to have to kill like all the christians for that to happen

WindDancer
So far I think Belgium, Canada, Germany have legalize gay marriages. I just knew that the US was next. Hmmm....... I wonder what will happen in People's Republic of China when the debate of gay marriages arrive there.

Raz
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3518117.stm

Iirima

Ushgarak
Ok, so, now what I see here is room for doubt. See, for a right-wing Christian Republican, Bush's anti-gay sentiment over time has been remarkably mild.

What he might do here- seeing as he says that he will not stop States making provisions for gay couples- is that whilst he will preserve the literal instiution of 'marriage' for man and wife, I do not think he will obstruct States that allow civil unions between Gays that, for all practical intents and purposes SAVE religious ones, have the exact same effect abd legal standing.

Whilst that is still discrimination, it could be a hell of a lot worse.

Raz
Pfft, who cars about religion?

Viper
He's said on several occassions that he's for civil unions between gay couples.

yerssot
a week or three ago I talked with an american overhere and he said something in the lines of that the states can still refuse to accept his law and can still accept gay-marriages

(if I'm wrong here, please correct me)

Viper
Eh just about 5 billion people on the planet wink

Ushgarak
This would be a problem for Christian homosexuals- marriage is more than just a civil thing for such people.

yerssot
try 3... max stick out tongue

Raz
He wants to make a consituational changes, so it would be binding.

Plus he would need around 75% voting FOR this amendment. Not sure how likely that would be.

The Force
more then you know

Viper
There's over a billion Muslims, somewhere around 2 billion Christians, 1 billion Hindus, half a billion Buddists, and probably about half a billion other, smaller religions.

Raz
Religion is evil. It causes more problems then it solves.

tazman
First of all I respect everyone's opinions and beliefs even if they differ from mine. I just ask that you respect mine.

I think it's possible for a person to 'love' another person of the same sex. The passions of the heart can be the same between a homosexual couple and a heterosexual couple. That part of it can not and will not be disputed, at least by me.

By my belief and opinion is that it shouldn't be made legal. That doesn't mean I hate the people or think any less of them, I just don't agree with what they do. Personally if two people of the same sex want to parade around as a couple, that's their business. But for them to want the same privileges and stature of a marriage by Law I find to be wrong.

yerssot
and how many ACTIVE?
I in example am still in the christian registers but I am in no way christian


hmm, but we should stay clear of religion

Iirima
It can cause alot of problems...Bush takes Christianity too far, to the point where I groan and want to scream. (and me being the religious one) Ugh...I don't want gay ppl to be banned from marrying! It's not right.

WindDancer
Not always Raz, remenber there are holy (Missionares) ppl who help less fortunate families in the skid rows, ghettos, slumbs (sorry for using those terms) so Religion does help with certain problems.

Raz
You ask for respect over something you can control.

But you do not give respect to something people cannot control.

Why do you think it's wrong?

The Force
it depends on which religion your talking about, what problems does Christianity cause?

Raz
So they only help people because their religion tells them so. Maybe they need help.

Linkalicious
yeah...i think they were the same people who started the Crusades and killed thousands and thousands of people in the Name of God.

Raz
Mate, you might want to read up on your history.

Viper
And if they weren't fighting over God they would be fighting over money, land, or pretty much anything else.

lil bitchiness
I agree!

Im not sure why bush is doing that...maybe because majority of Americans are Catolics, so hes trying to win that group over for the next ellections...confused

Marrage between two people any sex should be allowed...i dont understand why it should not be? I dont understand the reason behind it...its not harming anyone...why should it be illegal.
It is also, in my openion moraly right....so...i fail understand the problem.

Linkalicious
atleast money, land and pretty much everything else have material value. God doesn't put a roof over my head or food on my plate....i do

lil bitchiness
Its a bit discrimiative at times...confused

The Force
yes i know what we did back then, but i'm talking about the present

WindDancer
Ah come on Link!! You going to tell me that those priests in the missions of Downtown L.A. are going to be held responsible for the crimes of the past? They help the homeless folks with food and clothes that certainly is act pure goodness.

yerssot
it created a lot of problems TF... take a look at history

Raz
Exactly, God didn't create humans. Humans created God.

Raz
Helping people has nothing to do with religion, but all to do with Humanity.

Linkalicious
they are doing it because it's an act of pure goodness in "their god's eyes"

I do stuff like that because it's an act of pure goodness in my eyes.

lil bitchiness
Its a shame that religion is used as an excuse to descriminate,and make things that should be perfectly legal...illegal.

Iirima
Okay, are we talking about religion or this whole gay thing? confused

i guess religion does have something to do with it...I'm a Christian...I'm for the rights of gays...ppl think I'm crazy...sad

WindDancer
Yes it is Raz! Is part of their faith and belief to help those that cannot help themselves. Religion can be humanitarian.

Linkalicious
THAT IS THE PERFECT STATEMENT!

No other creature on this planet knows that God exsists other than Humans...because they created him.

Raz
Hmm...yes...I was thinking that myself.

yerssot
conviniently placed, it's their faith to help those who belief in the same god, yes

WindDancer
Not only in the eyes of God but also in their good soul.

Linkalicious
well the only people who seem to have problems with gay marriage appear to have religious connections. (general statement)

Linkalicious
A soul is another religious creation. just like God.

lil bitchiness
Bush is being stupid...im sure many people will protest this. Its totally redicilous...

Raz
OK, I think it's time to stop the religious talk.

It's starting to go too far now.

Viper
Perhaps that's because religious people generally feel more strongly about morals and values. Since homosexuality is in a sense "unnatural" many feel it's immoral (also a general statement)

Raz
I have to agree. I still doubt he will get the votes to make the change to the Constitution.

Ushgarak
I wish that were true- but there are large amounts of non-religious people who would simply say that such a thing is not 'natural', as if that answer is apparently the be all and end all of everything.

Viper
Many people will protest, but most polls show that the vast majority of Americans are against gay marriage.

WindDancer
Good faithful ppl believe in God. It is the corrupt and wicked people that use the name of God to commit their crimes (eg The Crusaders)

Iirima
yes I couldn't agree more!

yerssot
WD; read Raz his last post
and I can say the same about bush

lil bitchiness
Were there some states already where it was illegal for couples of same sex to marry and the Bush is wanting to make it through all the America or is it legal through out the USA?

WindDancer
I just read it. I'm stopping right now with the Religion topic.

Raz
I will edit out any more religious talk.

PLEASE STOP!

Iirima
I think it's still legal everywhere...I think...

Linkalicious
...

Viper
Currently I don't think gay marriage is legal in any state although I may be wrong.

lil bitchiness
So...does anyoe know his reasons for wanting to make it illegal...the non religious ones, because i believe he has to have a stronger ground on which he is to base his campaign...

Linkalicious
So I can't be a good and faithful person without believing in this "higher being" isn't that a bit discriminatory?

lil bitchiness
ARGH!! Stop it...or this will get closed and then we wouldnt be able to debate about anymore!!



Please sad

Viper
Basically he's trying to make it illegal because several states (and cities) are in controversy about the issue now. This state says they'll allow gay marriage while that state says they won't recognize the union.

As I said, the vast majority of Americans don't want it legalized.

Iirima
I don't think he has any other reasons to make it illegal...and I don't think that the law will pass anyway.

Linkalicious
not my fault...i have my comment quoted like 3 times and all 3 people who quoted me quoted me and rebuttled with stupid reasons. as if i care that this thread gets closed...

WindDancer
Link> pm if you would like talk about it.

Back to the issue is like I was saying. If gay marriages contribute to the commonwealth of a nation is fine. The ethics come in 2nd place but what matters is if gay marriages can contribute to the regular flow of society.

finti
guess it is time that US moves into the same century as most of the world on certain issues

lil bitchiness
Whys that?

lil bitchiness
too true laughing out loud

Linkalicious
dun worry about the PM..i hate waxing religion

how about instead of asking how it contributes to the regular flow of society.....how does it hinder it?

WindDancer
I don't think it hinders society. But like I said before ppl tend to think that "traditional marriages" produce a child. One more child= more members of society. Therefore assuring the survival of the nation in the future.

Iirima
Most nations of the world are overpopulated, wait that was off topic, anyway...

tazman
Raz, you said I respect what I can control, but would I respect what I can't control. All I can do is put in my vote on the issue as one person, but whatever happens in general is out of my control. If it becomes legalized, then that's the laws of the land I live in. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it or even like it.

You also asked me why I don't agree with it, because I'm against homosexuality, both from a Jesus standpoint, and that of my own personal opinion (for those who seem to think Bible believers can't think on their own). So if I'm against homosexuality (the act not the people), then I'm against their getting married.

julibug

The Force
there a difference between God, and false gods, There is no way that we created God, if you want human-created gods look into greek mythology, that's what human-creatd gods are like.

yerssot
TF, you're LATE, no more religion

Shoukan
oh this is going to be closed like the other topics started in this subect area...

ppl keep adding religion into this...and politics---both are against the rules

Linkalicious
Huh? How is there a difference?

The Force
it's because those ppl don't understand why those other ppl like the same sex, basically

oh and sorry yerss i just had to ad in the last bit

The Force
i'd explain that to you but we can't talk about religion anymore

unless you want a pm

Linkalicious
feel free to PM me...but it's gonna take more than religious talk to convince me there is a difference between God and God.

The Force
will do then, but about the gay marraige thing, julibug's defintion pretty much cancelled the arguement out

julibug
To be honest, I think the main issue of debate is really whether or not homosexuality is innate. If one is either born heterosexual or homosexual, than to deny the same rights, including marriage, would be descriminatory. If everyone agreed that it's just a matter of how one is born, the marriage issue probably wouldn't be an issue. Check out the following links.... (& don't stop too short on the last two, because they aren't anti-gay as you might think in the beginning)

http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/psychobiology_site_backups/homosexuality-debate/choice.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

Linkalicious
Why would anyone agree that someone is born as a homosexual? Homosexuality is a choice...not a hereditary trait.

lil bitchiness
So because some people fali to understand some things, or are closed minded on that field, that should be restricted to other peolpe...made illegal.

Raz
You think people CHOOSE to be hetrosexual or homosexual?

How the hell does that work?

Ushgarak
I agree with Link, always have done. I always thought it rather insidious to write off sexuality as something unchangable that you were born with.

Linkalicious
it's a mixture of attraction and environmental circumstances...

How does it not work? are you saying that Homosexuality is a hereditary trait?

Sugar Kane
I am sure that many people who are not religious would see Bush as a bigot- I for one do. I'm sure glad that he's not my president...Blair may be an idiot but he's less of a bigot. It makes me angry that government thinks that it has the right to control something so personal as who can marry whom- aren't we able to make any decisions for ourselves?! This violates peoples freedom to be who they are, and love who they want to love and I find it really sad. sad I think that this is a giant step back.

lil bitchiness
WRONG!!

It is a scinetific fact that homosexuals are born homosexuals. Its to do with the brain. There is are points in our brain that tell our body if we are male or female and which hormones are to be produced in the brain according to our sex. There are also points which control our gender adn also tell us who we are attracted to...male or females..sometimes both. In homosexuals this is a little different, not entiraly sure i can explin it properly, but something is missing, so it gets body confused and as a result they are attracted to the same sex, or both sexes.

Its natural thing, and its not weird or terrible or a sin of any kind...

Ushgarak
WHOA!

It is NOT a scientific fact, not even vaguely. That is a HIGHLY contentious point. In any case, genetics are flexible, and people are born with dispositions, not hard-wired behaviours.

Raz
Yeah it's totally ridiculous that some people think they can CONTROL which sex they want to be attracted to.

lil bitchiness
Im sure many people will disagree with you Ush...You might wanna check how many people commit suicide because they are homosexuals and are afraid to come out because of how they will be treated!!

Oh yeah...its their choice!

Ushgarak
That's a very absurd interpretation of saying that it is not hereditary, Raz.

lil bitchiness
Yes I agree! thumb up

Raz
Is there proof otherwise?

Sugar Kane
If anyone believes that a person would choose a lifestyle for which they are discrimated against on a daily basis, then these people are seriously deluded. I didn't choose to be heterosexual- I just am, I don't know why- I was just born that way and it is exactly the same for homosexuals.

Ushgarak
There is absolutely no conclusive proof that it is hereditary. There is at the very least just as much evidence to say it is not. From personal experience adn association I say it is not.

Sexuality is a VERY complex area and many, many factors go towards determining it, and choice is one of them. To try and pin down sexuality to 'you are born that way'- that IS absurd.

lil bitchiness
Sugar Kane - exactly my point was...

Ushgarak
What the heck is that, you think people would deliberately not 'chose' it because they are worried about what others might think? How ridiculous! People make counter-social choices all the time. What do you think Gay Pride is?

Cinemaddiction
Newsflash:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GAY GENE!

Raz
Ush, theres a thing called Denial. People try to supress what they don't like.

Ushgarak
Absolutely (to cinermaaddiction)

And I know that, Raz. But that has no bearing at all. The idea that homosexuality HAS to be genetic just because no-one would chose a discriminated against lifestyle is also ludicrous

Sugar Kane
Who says it's herediatary? That is a dumb suggestion- you may be born with your sexual preference, but it is certainly not a hereditary trait- it's not like inheriting your Dad's nose- your don't inherit your sexuality!! If that were the case, how were any homosexuals born?! D'oh!

Shoukan
See this is my point subjects like this should not be allowed on this site...that is just my opinionthumb up

you may disagree with homosexuals...but I am one...it is my choice to live like this---no straight person can tell me how to live...i do not give a flying **** what people say about me---it isn't their life it is mine!

Raz
I don't think anyone suggested it was inherited from the parents. It's something you're born with, and you just have to deal with it.

How and why, no-one knows.

Ushgarak
(in full agreement with Sugarkane and Shoukan)

The Force
yeah pretty much, except when the ppl fully understand homosexuality, like ppl that follow rules of the Bible, we know it's wrong and we try to tell other ppl, but some ppl refuse to beleive what we call the truth, so there are those same close-minded ppl that throw out the information that we give them about homosexuality, which they don't like

it's just like circular reasoning

Ushgarak
A view I am utterly and totally opposed to and that I think has no bearing towards real life.

When I was gay I was proud to have chosen that, as a bisexual I am equally proud. No-one is going to tell me I HAD to be this way, especially people who have no idea how to back up what they are saying.

Linkalicious
what makes it hereditary? is there a GAY gene? no. You can have 2 completely straight parents and be born a completely normal person. The environment that you grow up and the images that are pleasing to your developed mind are what makes you gay....not some hereditary factors.

lil bitchiness
That is too true.

Ushgarak
Or alternatively you refuse to see the intolerant, backwards, barbaric nature of such belief that it is wrong.

Yup, that seems to be right...

Ushgarak
Absolutely

Raz
Did anyone actually say it was hereditary? I don't remember.

Anyhow, how does the enviroment change your sexuality. That is something I do not understand.

lil bitchiness
That is pretty stupid is you ask me. Just because some people are closed minded, that means that they should make hell for those who arent...

No offence Force, but hoosexuality has been arround much longer than the bible, and if you quote me the bile anywhere where it says ''being gay wil send you to hell, and being gay is wrong'' please do quote it for us...

The Force
ahem *points up to defintion*

julibug
Did any of you read the links I posted? The last two were very very interesting. They discuss scientific study into sexual orientation. They talk some about twins, for example, that were raised in different homes, if one twin is gay, only about 55% percent of the time is the other one gay. Thus challenging the genetic issue. But they do have other valid points about very early detective of homosexuality. I don't have time to quote here. Please go read...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm

WindDancer
I don't disagree with homosexuals. They can do with their lives as they please. As long as they remain within the law of the land is just fine. For me what matters is the contribution that they put into their society. What politicians need to recognize is that whether you are gay or straight, doesn't really matter. What matters is how much the indivual contributes to the commonwealth of the a nation.

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