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Who do u guys think would win, i put my money on Revan!!!!!!!!

Whos Revan?

From KotOR....or the KMC guy.....

Yeah i personally think Revan could beat Dooku

err, this is neither Star Wars nor EU related.....please read the rules at the top of the page. You might want to post things like this in OTF in the future.

*nods*

it's a silly 8 year old question

"err, this is neither Star Wars nor EU related....."
quote from JediPreistess

Are you on crack or something?
becuase it is Star Wars and Darth Revan is from EU
please use brain b4 posting......thank you

then please specify in the future that the character is an EU character because above when someone asked if you meant the KMC darth raven you replied yes, thats why you caught so much grief.. Not everyone reads EU, some of us are canon freaks..and No I'm not on crack, crack kills man...........gimme a doobie anyday

fine i will specify that it is the character from KOTOR, an EU game.
So get back to voting and posting!
oh and uh, i have no doobie or bong sorry Priestess........

Hey, n-no it doesn't!
C-crack doesn't k-kill!

revan would whup dooku's ass, at least when i played...

did anyone else actually run around choosing the option to yell at everyone around you "I'M DARTH REVAN"

Yeah, that was killer!

Darth Revan easy, he has a better lightsabre dueling than dooku

revan was the most boss sith ever if he hadent been shot by a missle while fighten super jedi he would have completeley ruled

Darth Revan would win....absolutely no contest .

JP are you a mod?

Revan all the way

Dooku wouldnt last five minutes Revan is the strongest of his time and that places him in the strongest force user leauge. Dooku would get fryed.

:-)...have you guys ever considered the fact that in KOTOR, Revan could have been a chick???

Not in my game !

LOL, I think Revan would woop Dooku as well.

And yeah, who said Revan was a guy? Personnaly, I think it would be good. It's about time they had an evil woman taking over the galaxy instead of leaving it to the male video game caracters!

Dooku must win Reven turns to the light and thus must die. Revan was a weak fool. And would die trying to beat Dooku

Um... revan doesn't turn to the light side... that is entirely ur choice. So if u decided to make Revan light side, you, in your own words "Would die trying to beat dooko"
Think about it. Dooko is an old man who can barely use the force and ran away from a duel. Why would dooko win?

picture of raven anyone?

revan...woops

Delfedd, saying Dooku can barely use the force is absurd. He did take down Obi-Wan and the CHOSEN ONE, Anakin one after another. Then he battled The wisest/most powerful Jedi they had to offer, Yoda, and managed to survive. It's true Dooku had to run off, but if you saw that little frog like freak of a force user flippin around all crazy while still coming dangerously close to penetrating your defenses, you'd leave too.

revan would own dooku

here is one. He is the one in black (the shorter one)

I wish you could have gotten Revan's robes(without cheats) in KOTOR...That woulda been badass.

BTW, Revan would dominate Dooku.

And "The Chosen One" doesn't mean shit! It just means that he was the one chosen to either "even the score between the Jedi and Sith(the murdering of the Jedi)" or the one chosen to "kill the final Sith". However you want to interpret the "prophecy".

I believe that though Revan would win, light or dark, Count Dooku would not just completly obliterated seeing that Dooku was the apprentice to the most ingenious sith to ever rule the galaxy. it would also depend on the place, if Revan went dark and they were on the Star Forge Revan would be even better against dooku.

What an odd response here!

I say Dooku, and by a clear margin.

...Any reason why, Ush? That is a curious answer.

Well, why think Revan is so ultimately powerful? He was a strategically competent Fallen Jedi whose entire power depended on the fact that he had discovered the Star Forge. And military conquest is then the only option he seemed to have any talent for.

Dooku is a master politican, expert swordfighter, and Force genius who was an essential part of the actual downfall of the Republic and triumph of the Sith- thereby achieving more than Revan ever could, and without a bunch of other Sith behind him.

I place the major villains of the films beyond the major villains of an EU piece by standard unless given big reason to think different, and looking at the fatcs only makes me think anything BUT different.

way to crush our hopes and dreams ush.

You can if your dark

and not until almost the end of the game...but you don't get his mask, and you can't put the hood up, so aesthetically a moot point.


Yes, and Darth Revan was the essential part of the downfall of the Mandalorians (who would've annhilated the Republic without breaking a sweat) before he had full control of the Star Forge. His power came from the countless Jedi turned to his cause, and it was his charismatic presence infused in him through the force along with his his natural "forceless" leadership abilities that made him able to do so. (sounds like it translates pretty well into "political genius" to me)

Later, in the Jedi Civil War (unless I'm mistaken, that's basically the story of KOTORI, considering all the Jedi are in hiding in KOTOR2, 5 standard years later-- someone correct me if I'm wrong), Revan actually TOOK the fully functional star forge AWAY from another Sith lord, Darth Malak, by defeating him, one-on-one (something Dooku basically failed to do-- he retreated from who was unofficially considered the head of the Jedi Council), and had mastered both force and lightsaber combat well enough to use either by itself to do so.

Basically, Revan in the Mandalorian/Jedi Civil War was the equivalent of Palpatine in the Clone War, except Revan didn't have to infiltrate and manipulate the Galactic Senate to gain power first. Revan was powerful enough to operate without hiding his actions.

In the end, it's fine that you look at the whole situation as from a "Star Wars Canon" (movies are law) standpoint, I'm just arguing the EU (Expanded Universe) standpoint.

I say Revan so that I can disagree with Ush.

Ohhh...them's fightin words...but I said Revan b/c Revan would win...provided he could overcome the 5000 yr old bone creaking thing

Well, if it comes to power in the raw sense, Revan was a much more powerful Sith. I find it doubtful that Dooku could have mastered the Starforge. It takes considerable skill and willpower to do so, as does drawing on the primal dark forces of places like Korriban and Malachor V without losing one's self. Whereas Dooku was a mere behind the scenes puppeteer who was subservient to Sidious, Revan was the top Sith lord of his time and someone feared by most everyone. Dooku may have disobeyed the council, but he was driven back and forced to retreat. Revan waged a war against the council and the Republic which, had he not been struck down and captured, would have destroyed both. His abilities and potential as a leader and general were superb, and he earns my respect much more than the shifty Sidious or the Machievellan Dooku.

all that to say "Revan wins" end of story

Not-So-Subtle-Threat: It would be in the best of interests for all meatbags to agree with her and leave the master be.

statement: Or we will be forced to anahililate you....that is our preference

(New,but I'll post my opinion)
Revan would win.He was much stronger in the force than dooku,and is awesome with a lightsabre.Just to clear something up I read earlier;Lucasfilm has stated that historically Revan returns to the light side,defeats Bastila in battle,kills Malak,apologizes to Malak for leading him down the path of the dark side,and destroys the star forge.A year after this,Revan leaves the Republic in search of the remnants of the ancient Sith Empire,and put a stop to their potential threat before they attacked the weakened republic.If he completed his mission and returned to the republic is unknown(unless it's in Kotor 2 which I ain't beat yet.)

the matrix web site the forum is not working propley plz help

So Revan got all soft on us, eh? I'd love to see where that's verified; not that I disbelieve you or anything... I just need to see something like that in print. But I think it makes sense.

Revan is kik ass,end ov

As I mentioned elsewhere, Sidious' apprentices are all training when the darkside is at it's strongest, therefore all of his Sith apprentices we've seen would defeat ANY of the old republic chumps.
Dooku may be old, but his experience and skills would annihilate Reven

The darkside was at it's strongest... ah, why? And in who's opinion? Did GL just pop out in some interview and go "Oh, and the time of Sidious is the strongest point for the darkside and all people trained at this time in the Sith ways where unstoppable badasses who could own any Sith before."

Until that happens you remain... extremely wrong in my opinion.

(Ok, I just signed up so i could post here because its ridiculous that some people think Dooku would beat Revan...)

The strongerst age of the dark side was the ancient sith lords like Ajunta Pall. Kreia tells the exile that when you do to Korriban in KOTOR2. She evens says that We are like children playing with toys when you compare yourself to one of the ancient sith lords with a lightsaber.

Anyway, Revan would kick Dooku ass! I honestly think he could best Darth Vader too...

No, see Lucas has said the darkside is at it's most powerful with Sidious around. He's the most powerful Sith ever, and he not only clouds the entire lightside of the force, but he can bullsh*t master Yoda to his face! And! He defeats Yoda!
None of the Sith in the video games could do that.
NONE

And btw, Dooku has defeated Windu, and held his own with Yoda, he could take out Revan.

Alright, let's point out a few things:

First off, my friend (Just so you know this isn't a personal attack) the movie was made before anything else. While originally GL had probably intended for Vader to be the original Sith-meister, with the success of the storyline and the way that it had begun to branch off, it was only a matter of time before someone came up (Or perhaps a few) who were better. I think we can safely consider that to be the case.

Second, none of the video game Sith lords ever confronted Yoda. He wasn't alive then. So I guess that point is moot.

Third, Dooku was quite capable, but Revan was amazing. Think about the difference there. Capable. Amazing. It's like comparing a draft to a raging hurricane. Revan was a Sith Lord. Note that title. You don't get those by being a mere general or tactician. You get those kinda titles by being amazing at everything you need to do to maintain power- kill Jedi, fool Jedi, fool the masses, kill the masses, etc. Why else would Malak have had to wait for so long and for such an opportunity to take control? And note he didn't do it in combat.

And last, Vader is cool, I admit as much. And I bet after seeing Episode III I will have much more respect for him and Sidious than before. Perhaps not. In any case, as I stand now and as I see it, I state Revan to be the victor. Vader doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
No, see Lucas has said the darkside is at it's most powerful with Sidious around. He's the most powerful Sith ever, and he not only clouds the entire lightside of the force, but he can bullsh*t master Yoda to his face! And! He defeats Yoda!
None of the Sith in the video games could do that.
NONE

And btw, Dooku has defeated Windu, and held his own with Yoda, he could take out Revan.
No, I don't believe he did

I personally think Revan would beat Dooku ,Sidious too even on the light side
he's the most powerful sith lord ever

You can get revans robes without cheats on the star forge you go to the computer in the room where there is a plasteel container in a force field and use 25 spikes to create a jedi robe and it creates revans robes.(In response to something i read earlier)

In response to the question at hand revan would destroy dooku.In one of the visions in Kotor2 in the sith tombs you fight revan and he is wielding two lightsabers only someone extremely powerful in the force with exceptional skill can fight using that form so therefore revan would kill dooku,not to mention if he wasn't betrayed from afar he would have brought the republic to it's knees.

I don't know if you noticed it, but Anakin was using two lightsabers as he was fighting against Dooku. And Dooku easily beat Anakin in that fight. And also notice that Dooku was the apprentice of Yoda himself, the highest member in the jedi council, and after that he was the apprentice of the most powerful sith ever: Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious managed to eradicate almost all the jedi and that although he didn't have an army of dark jedi behind him (although he has an army of clones). Darth Sidious manages to kill four jedi masters of the high council, while fighting against all of them at once. And Darth Sidious manages to beat the highest member of the council. I know that Dooku would never be able to take on four jedi masters, but I don't think that Revan could beat him as easily as some of you people here are saying he would. And the fact that Revan could beat Sidious is absolutely rediculous. I mean like has a single Sith ever been able to eradicate all of the jedi except for two? The only sith lord, that comes near to that would be Darth Nihilus, but he never managed to take over the entire galaxy at the same time.

So Sidious defeated four Jedi Masters at the same time? Wow big deal...

When you see Revan on his ship there are four Jedi Masters there a long with Bastila. Masters that have to be incredibly powerful to be allowed to go on the mission of capturing Revan. Probably the most powerful Masters that they could get at that time. They stood against Revan, and Revan let them come doing nothing.

Casually choking a soldier, not shooting them out of the air. Not joining his forces in a fight he knew his forces would lose, he didn't even send a great amount of troops to destroy them. No he just stood there calmly, and then planned on facing four Jedi Masters and Bastila at once. He would have won too.

Revan defeated Malak who casually killed two Jedi Masters before Revan fought him and was still more then ready to fight Revan. Not only that but Malak had a lot of Jedi to draw power from and refresh himself. He was in control of the star forge, a tool so powerful that only the two most powerful ever could handle it. The Rakatan were destroyed by it. Eventually they grew weaker without challenges and the infinite empire collapsed because there was nobody powerful enough to contro the Star Forge anymore. That and the virus along with a civil war meant the end for their Empire.

Also Revan used to fight against a lot of Mandelorians at the same time, he defeated the highest and most powerful Echani, and later on Mandalore in single combat. Those two were known for combat, they fought and trained all their lives. They may not have been force sensitive but they were surely opponents to be careful for. Many Jedi have been killed by Canderous, who was weaker then Mandalore. Mandalore would easily kill Jedi, and Revan took care of him.

Not even beginning to mention all the countless of battles Revan fought and won. He was the Sith Lord in a time with a lot of Jedi and Sith, many would have faced him trying to get power trying to kill him trying to capture him. Republic Soldiers, Sith Soldiers, Jedi and Sith alike. He won from them all, every single last one of them. He was unchallenged in his life, never once met somebody that could match him that could beat him. Never, and in a time filled with war and so many Jedi and Sith that says a lot.

Sidious played cheap tricks to fool the republic and only in the end attacked. Revan on the other hand was never afraid of the republic or the Jedi knowing damn well he could beat them all, in full scale wars and personal battles and he proved it. Revan sure as hell would have been able to defeat the highest member of the Jedi Council. Hell he had Jedi Councillors working for him in the Mandalorian wars and probably the Sith wars. Jedi Councillors he did not choose as his apprentice, instead he choice Malak. Meaning that Malak was more powerful then Masters, and Malak was surely weaker then Revan.

Now saying that Sidious managed to kill all the Jedi except for two is hardly an accomplishment. How many Jedi were there before the wars started. In Kotor times there were thousands and the Jedi Civil war as it was called (lead by Revan) killed so many that less then a 100 remained. Less then one hundred out of thousands. If thats not effective then i don't know what is. All Nihilus did was kill some of the left overs. Sidious faced less Jedi and killes less. He didn't even succeed in killing the most powerful, and he faced him in battle.

Revan would have easily beaten Vandaar and Vrook, Revan was obviously more powerful then Kreia and we all know how easily Kreia did it.

Dooku is just outclassed by Revan in every single way, there is no way he could win... No matter how much he tried.

Meh. Misconceptions. Let's straighten a few facts out.

Number of Jedi in Revan's time: perhaps thousands. There were thousands upon thousands forty years earlier in the times of Exar Kun, though many were lost then and in the Great Hunt shortly after. Still, more Jedi were alive and active and -fighting Sith and dark Jedi- in this time than for a millenia before TPM.

Number of Jedi in Sidious' time: I wouldn't even say a grand. I imagine there's an exact number somewhere, but it's a fraction of earlier eras. The Jedi Council itself was already in eclipse before Sidious took action.

Methods of eliminating Jedi by Revan: Revan wanted to convert as many as possible, so he recruited talent to track down and capture Jedi. Many were slain, but many more were converted to the darkside and became his vassals. In the two years before Revan was captured by Jedi forces after the betrayal of Malak, the Jedi were decimated, while the Republic, though bloodied, was kept with an infrastructure. Malak resumed the war for another year, being less tactful than his former master and killing wholesale all who stood in his way. In the five years since Revan's disappearance and Malak's demise, it was Sith assassins from Revan's former sect, operating under Kreia's orders (And Kreia was indeed subservient to her former pupil) to continue the elimination of the Jedi. Nihilus strikes a big blow on Katarr by devastating the planet and wiping out most of the ruling council of Jedi, and Sion's actions help track down many more survivors. So one could say that by his subtle machinations, Revan had orchestrated the destruction of the ENTIRE Jedi order, since those who were Jedi either died or renounced their titles and went into exile.

Methods of Sidious: Since the Jedi order was more deeply entrenched in Republic Senate mischief and had a smaller, less cohesive council, Sidious instigated a war that was most likely already brewing in an effort to draw the Jedi into deadly combat. Droids such as JKs (Jedi Killers, out of Cetus) were commissioned to help elminate Jedi. Later on, Anakin is used as a puppet to eliminate many more (With Clone help) as Jedi are labeled enemies of the new Republic under Palpatine. Sidious himself slays only three Jedi masters (The fourth he had help with) and defeated Yoda, though I'm not too sure how close any of these battles were and won't know until the movies come out.

In any case, Revan was deadlier than Sidious, and as you said, Sidious could force spank Dooku to Tattooine and back.

Don't forget that the jedi that boarded Revans flagship were only able to board it because of Bastilas battle meditation and Bastila was never truly a jedi master or ever in the council. And how could you be so sure that the other three jedi where masters or even in the council? And we never actually get to see Revan fight against all of them. And remember that Revan had a lot of super machines as help and none of them were actually made by him. For Example the Star Forge: Who knows what Palpatine would have done if he had had the Star Forge. Second Example Malachor V: Revan used Malachor to convert most of the jedi to the dark side. What would Revan have done without them? Revan would have never been able to convert the jedi for his causes without the Star Forge and Malachor V. Palpatines super weapons were the two Death Stars, they were maybe never as powerful as the Star Forge or Malachor V, but they were created by Sidous himself. Revan just found the Star Forge and Malachor V but he never truly understood how they were built, or he would have built a second Star Forge.

Originally posted by Darth Inanis
Don't forget that the jedi that boarded Revans flagship were only able to board it because of Bastilas battle meditation and Bastila was never truly a jedi master or ever in the council. And how could you be so sure that the other three jedi where masters or even in the council? And we never actually get to see Revan fight against all of them. And remember that Revan had a lot of super machines as help and none of them were actually made by him. For Example the Star Forge: Who knows what Palpatine would have done if he had had the Star Forge. Second Example Malachor V: Revan used Malachor to convert most of the jedi to the dark side. What would Revan have done without them? Revan would have never been able to convert the jedi for his causes without the Star Forge and Malachor V. Palpatines super weapons were the two Death Stars, they were maybe never as powerful as the Star Forge or Malachor V, but they were created by Sidous himself. Revan just found the Star Forge and Malachor V but he never truly understood how they were built, or he would have built a second Star Forge.

Don't take this personal, but I'm gonna pick your post apart. It's what I do in life, other than take up space.

The Jedi who boarded Revan's ship did not get there because of battle meditation. If they did, she would not have been present, but would have been meditating in some room somewhere. That's quite obvious, since she has to sit and meditate if you use her help in the end of KOTOR I (Btw, it is possible to kill her during the match by causing too much damage.)

Ask yourself this question- would you send a handful of Jedi Knights onboard to capture Darth Revan, or Jedi Masters?

We don't Revan see all of them, but we know that they would have been destroyed had Malak not intervened. Kreia and KOTOR sites point out that Malak's actions were guided by the will of the Force, and that his actions allowed Revan to be captured and for the Jedi to have another chance. And Revan has defeated Yusanis, the greatest Echani duellist ever (Considering Echani have a monopoly on vriboblades and swords and the technology behind them, that's a considerable achievement). He also destroyed Mandalore in personal combat, and was strong enough as a Sith Lord that Malak, a frontline hero of the Mandalorian Wars and mighty Sith Lord in his own right, could only hope to fire upon Revan's bridge to kill him. Malak feared Revan in personal combat.

Revan had supermachines? Like what? The Star Forge? It was built by the ancient Ratakans. But super machines has jackall to do with combat ability. The Death Star was made by someone other than Palpatine himself and was made by Wookiee slave labor. Doesn't make a damn lick of difference. And Revan did understand the Star Forge. He understood it as much as the builders did. He understood it enough to shut it down and leave it. Hell, he obviously thought he didn't need it or the risks weren't worth it.

Lastly, Revan poured over Malachor V for a long time. He understands it arguably better than anyone, save perhaps Kreia. And since Revan's ambition was to conquer and unite the Republic against some ancient threat from beyond the Outer Rim, killing Jedi was detrimental to his cause. Granted, though, if he could not corrupt them with the powers of Malachor (A bloody planet) he would have slain those who posed a threat. He was not one to take unneccessary chances.

Originally posted by Darth Inanis
Don't forget that the jedi that boarded Revans flagship were only able to board it because of Bastilas battle meditation and Bastila was never truly a jedi master or ever in the council. And how could you be so sure that the other three jedi where masters or even in the council? And we never actually get to see Revan fight against all of them. And remember that Revan had a lot of super machines as help and none of them were actually made by him. For Example the Star Forge: Who knows what Palpatine would have done if he had had the Star Forge. Second Example Malachor V: Revan used Malachor to convert most of the jedi to the dark side. What would Revan have done without them? Revan would have never been able to convert the jedi for his causes without the Star Forge and Malachor V. Palpatines super weapons were the two Death Stars, they were maybe never as powerful as the Star Forge or Malachor V, but they were created by Sidous himself. Revan just found the Star Forge and Malachor V but he never truly understood how they were built, or he would have built a second Star Forge.

Common idea's not supported by facts.


Revan is a military genius right? We all agree on that, then why would he let Jedi come on his board if they had a chance of killing him? He wouldn't. If they really had a chance of killing him wouldn't he have send his entire crew up against them? Which seems highly unlikely seeing as a republic soldier and Bastila are still alive.

Now as you said Bastila was there because of her battle meditation but she originally seen as to weak and not important enough to go there. Let alone stand poweful enough to stand up against Revan. Revan wanted her she was the only hope the republic had left, without Bastila the Republic would fall even easier, thats what Revan was looking for. To take Bastila. The Jedi there were masters, why? Because the council on Dantooine said so. Only the most powerful and skilled were allowed to go there.

Revan didn't convert the Jedi using the star forge or malachor V those were just tools he used groups of people trained in it, trained by him i might add. and things in the unknown regions that helped him. Probably a dark side learning centre or something like that. Either way Malachor and the Star Forge had very little to do with it. Besides i very much doubt you take a light Jedi to the heart of your empire and a thing that can grant you victory on its own if you are not even sure what he will do with the information he will give them.

It would be as if Hitler invited Allied spies on his secret meetings... Foolish.

Sidious didn't create the Death Star himself, he used people for that. I doubt he even thought of it himself. Revan did not even need the Star Forge it just gave him a huge edge, he was incredibly succesful with the Republic fleet alone. Seeing as he left the weapon factory's stand and kept the Republic working you can assume Revan wanted to use the Star Forge for as little time as possible, seeing as he knew damn well what the thing did to the Rakatan. I don't think he feared what the Forge would do to him, but with the Republic after he died.


So to sum it up, Revan did not want a second star forge, he didn't use Malachor or the Star Forge to convert his enemy's and those guys on his ship were masters that he did not fear otherwise he would have made sure they would have died before they reached the bridge. He let them land because of Bastila to take out the one chance the Republic had.

We must have been working on our replies at the same time.

Revan used Malachor V to convert the jedi that weren't fully on the side of Revan. A statement in KOTOR2 says that at the battle above Malachor V, Revan sent in purposefully those jedi who weren't fully convinced by Revan. Malachor V is a planet filled with dark side energy as we all know, that is also the reason why the trayus academy was built on malachor V. And also Revan needed the Star Forge. Even if he did want to use it as little as possible Revan relied on it. Revan needed the Star Forge as a factory for his fleet. Revan posessed before the Star Forge only 1/3 of the entire republic fleet. It is very much but not enough to overwhelm the republic as he did with the Star Forge. Through the Star Forge he had the advantage of limitless resources. What would he have done without the Star Forge? True he would have had a very big jedi army, but the republic still would have had a fleet twice the size of his and they would have had a jedi that mastered the battle meditation. As we know from the end from KOTOR1, battle meditation can influence the outcome of huge battles. What would happen if Revan would fight against a fleet twice the size as his and that even supported by somone yielding the battle meditation? Would Revan still win? I think not. But still it is true that Revan was a tactical mastermind and genius in leading armys to victory. You convinced me, that Revan would have beaten Tyranus, but I still don't think, that he is as powerful as Sidious.

Malachor V was a trap for those Republic officers and crews and Jedi not loyal to Revan as well as the Mandalorians. The former were used as bait while the latter arrived to fight. The Exile, as general, gave the order to activate the mass shadow generator that crushed both fleets with the collapse of gravity. Otherwise, Revan did not use the planet itself to convert or murder Jedi. He had methods which agents, such as Atton, performed that would make Jedis break or die. The same methods that Malak uses on Bastila.

And battle meditation has limitations. For one, battle meditation is the idea of encompassing all the factors in the battle and organizing them, and then imparting that information via the force to armies. Its limited by its users' powers and by their tactical know-how. You could use a Nextel phone to walky-talky every Marine in Iraq, but if you don't have superior military know-how than the enemy general you're going up against, you'll still lose.

And for your argument, you still haven't proved to us how Sidious could compare with any ancient Sith lord, including Bane, let alone Revan.

And also to the methods of Sidious and Revan in destroying the Jedi: Sidious didn't convert any more jedi than one because too many Sith actually lead to the destruction of the sith order. Like said in KOTOR2: when the sith have no more strong enemy to fight against, then they fight against each other. And also Revan fought against a republic weakened by the mandalorian wars. Sidious also took over a republic weakened by the clone wars, but the clone wars were caused by himself. Revan just used the weakness of the republic after the mandalorian wars but Sidious caused the weakness by creating the clone wars. Sidious was the true mastermind in being able to deceive the entire galaxy like that. And to anwser your question how one could compare Sidious with any of the ancient Sith Lords: Sidious actually succeeded in taking over the entire republic and I don't know any Sith Lord that ever did that before.

The Clone Wars began as a Successionist movement in the Republic that had been in the making for a long time due to the stagnation of the Republic and the corruption of its many officials. While Sidious had dealing with the Trade Federation, a large advocate of succession, to say Sidious masterminded the Clone Wars is as inaccurate as saying Lenin masterminded the Cold War. There are so many factors involved it's impossible to say any one man was the intigator.

And Sidious may have conquered the Republic, a Republic that was weaker and more complacent than the one of Revan's times (Since Sith had been in hiding since the Battle of Ruusan, and there were no enemies to fight, not like the Mandalorians) but how did he do it? He commissioned a clone army, made up an enemy to fight, eliminated a handful of Jedi and proclaimed himself emperor. It's not like he had to fight for a damn thing he had. He worked the system. Any politician worth his daddy's wallet can do that. It's a lot easier to conquer a government from within than from without.

But in personal combat, there is nothing to indicate that Sidious was a warrior. And nothing to indicate that he was stronger in the Force than Revan.

Do you truly think that the republic at the time of sidious is weaker than that during the time of Revan? Just 33 years before the mandalorian wars was the big sith war of Exar Kun. It was one of the biggest galaxy wide spanning war there ever was!!! Even 33 years after that, the galaxy was still recovering from the war against Exar Kun. And in that time there came the mandalorians to battle the republic. This also weakened the republic again. You can't possibly say that the republic at Sidious' times was weaker than that, during Revans Jedi Civil War. The republic had two big wars before Revan turning against the galaxy. Was there any galaxy wide spanning war during the time before the clone wars? I think not. Only a few minor crisis' on few planets like the blockade of naboo. True the republic during Sidious hasn't seen war for a long time, but the republic during Revan was still recovering from two wars it had some years earlier.

Let me ask you this...

What the Republic stronger? How so? Did it have a standing army? A navy? How many ships? Was it stronger from night fighting or weaker?

It was stronger than a republic recovering from two galaxy wide spanning wars.

Depends on how you view strength. It was less rippled with the tidal waves of war and post war, yes. But it was not united and strong militarily. If it had been, there would have been no move for succession and no need for a Clone Army.

The republic during Revan had more forces then the one during Sidious his time. He still had to create an army, Revan faced an already existing and thus trained army. Who had seen a lot more battles and were a lot more skilled then the average none clone trooper if they even existed at that time.

Besides saying 33 years isn't enough to rebuild yourself is bullshit, Germany did it in 25 with a lot of sanctions against them, and they immediately started a war. A war that made the world shake. 33 years is more then enough if you want it to be. But really besides the point.

You still havn't given any argument for why Sidious would win besides that you think his conquest was more impressive. But honestly why would Sidious win? What have you seen him do that could possibly defeat Revan, what has he done? He manipulated instead of fought, he worked behind the scenes instead of finding a challange and destroying it. Revan always worked to improve himself, Sidious however was more then willing to just take the power and hope he would last.

Like I said before Revan had lots of Help from things that already exsisted. Sidious first had to create his Empire out of almost nothing. Sidious was responsible for the battle of Naboo, he was responsible for the seperatistic movement, using Dooku as a puppet for his plans and he was planning all this and the clone wars for at least ten years. What did Revan really do? He was only to amass his first fleet thanks to the mandalorian wars. But unlike Sidious, he wasn't responsible for this war but still used its advantages. What would he have done without the Star Forge? I already said it but I'm going to say it again: he would have lost. And that he didn't use Malachor V to convert jedi to his cause is wrong. As said in part X of the chronicles: "He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause. This process of "turning" Jedi into SITH ASSASSINS continued even as the Jedi Council hailed Revan as a hero(...)". Fact is that Revan would have never won without the Star Forge or Malachor V. And you're comparing Germany with a galaxy-wide spanning republic is ridiculous.

Okay play Kotor II again, make Revan a Dark Side male, then go to Korriban, find the charges and blow up the door leading to Uthar his office. Active the holocron and then tell me what you said again.

Besides if Revan used Malachor V as a turning point that wouldn't explain the serious lack of people there when Nihilus showed up. Who showed there right after the battle above Malachor V. Along with Sion who was also never seen or heard from again. If Revan used Malachor V you would think those two were known.

Malachor was a tool to destroy his opponents those that would not follow him and those he was fighting against. The Star Forge was also not the thing that turned the Jedi, once again go find that holocron and you'll find out for yourself. The Star Forge was a weapon plant a thing that he used to create a bigger fleet faster, so that he could conquer the Republic faster.

He did save the Republic from an enemy nobody thought could be defeated by the Republic and he used a Republic fleet to start his invasion. To say Revan needed the star forge is bullshit. It made it easier for him. Malak needed the Star forge, he couldn't have done anything with out it. But Revan just used it as a tool to make his conquest stronger and faster with less loss of live. Something everybody would want, the same reason Sidious had the Death Star.

And to say Sidious was the one that caused the separatist wars is just incredibly foolish to do, he couldn't have done that without playing out existing feelings. It was coming one way or another and when they had somebody to lead them it happened...

Now the funny thing is though, that even when Sidious had control of an army and the Republic still had to find one he refused to make an assault against the Republic. Sidious was a politician, he back stabbed the rest did what they wanted and in secret organised there fall. I will not deny his genius in this, but to say his conquest was more impressive is like saying that Cleopatra's conquest of Egypt is more impressive then Hanibal Barca's war against Rome... Foolish

Revan faced his opponents he met them head on and always tried to grow stronger by it, Sidious on the other hand refused to do that, scared of the consequences of the Jedi Council. Scared of what the weak few and scattered Jedi could do even without an army. Revan faced all of that. When Sidious was hiding Revan was fighting.

Bah, this is getting ugly...

Sidious created an Empire out of an existing, docile and corrupt Republic, not a void.

Sidious orchestrated the Battle of Naboo, yes. Revan orchestrated the military victory from a position of near defeat over the Mandalorians, the virtual Wehrmacht of the universe.

And Revan was very responsible for the Jedi Civil War and all its backlashes.

Yesssss! I found it! After an hour of searching through old threads I finally found this classic! Ahh the good old days were the best.

Please stop.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Please stop.

Why? I was looking for this thread anyway and I just bumped two others during my search. All the other threads on the top pretty much suck as it is.

Is this bash the forum day? Janus kept going on about how crappy it is earlier today.

I rather appreciate looking over the old threads. At least people generally made sense.

Yeah I know what you mean... the good ole days...

When Dooku vs. Revan was considered a good fight. Woo hoo. To bad I wasn't around to see it. Or was I?

07-07-04 this was posted, Glentract.

Ohhh. Wow. As ancient as Revan himself.

Or at least SnakeEyes. lol

I was hear since it got a two month bump. I remember you and Julie talking about the whole shoot meatbags thing.

That was pretty amusing.

Ahhh, the good old days....That were less than half a year ago.

I've been here since February. Time has -rolled- past. I feel like this guy...

lmao

Wow. I didn't realise you've only been here two months longer than me.

I have been here a month longer than Janus. Although back then I hardly ever posted if at all.

It seems like you came at the same time I did.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
It seems like you came at the same time I did.

Yep maybe about two weeks earler or so and I found this site the same way too just by searching for Revan at google.

I had been reading post made here for a few months before actually taking the time to sign-up. This was the first forum I'd ever been a part of(I tried Sorgo's forum while I was banned, but there's not enough activity there). I think I found it looking for Revan also. Wow, KMC needs to start giving Revan a salary.

Same here.

Just out of curosity Janus do you still think that Revan could defeat Dooku? I know your opinon of Revan has changed somewhat since you first joined these forums.

Hm. There's nothing to prove that Revan can Dooku, so in an argument I couldn't really favor Revan. But based on how I feel about what I know (And not how I debate this) I'd say Dookie loses. Not by much, but eventually. I think the critical points against him are really the battle precog and perhaps Revan's Force powers, which are stilla mystery to us.

Well, someone has put Revan in a much lower place. What happened to him being able to take Malak who is better than Dooku?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Hm. There's nothing to prove that Revan can Dooku, so in an argument I couldn't really favor Revan. But based on how I feel about what I know (And not how I debate this) I'd say Dookie loses. Not by much, but eventually. I think the critical points against him are really the battle precog and perhaps Revan's Force powers, which are stilla mystery to us.

That is why I demand that Lucasarts sanction the creation of a KOTOR book series starting from the begining of the Mandalorian Wars and going all the way through to whatever KOTOR 3 is going to be. Then we can have a cleary defined character to debate on instead of all these assumtions.

And it had better not be like the Balder's Gate Book series *winces* I was reminded how bad they were when I was rereading them the other day (made me sick).

What was the name of that series you were talking about that is twelve thousand pages a book?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What was the name of that series you were talking about that is twelve thousand pages a book?

Um...actually its around 600-1000 pages per book standard paperback size and it is a series of 10 books with two more on the way and three prequal novels.

It is called The Wheel of Time by Robert Jorden you can find them at any bookstore since they happen to be one of the most popular fantasy series around.

Have you read the Dragon Riders of Pern? Some people say they are good and others say they suck. Need some more opinions. I have to more or less chose what I read carefully because of a lack of time to read all I want.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Have you read the Dragon Riders of Pern? Some people say they are good and others say they suck. Need some more opinions. I have to more or less chose what I read carefully because of a lack of time to read all I want.

Nope never heard of the Dragon Riders of Pern.

I've herd of it, but it never really pulled me in. I've tried reading it. . . meh.

It told you Dooku was a rocker!

Originally posted by Rand al'Thor
It told you Dooku was a rocker!

With Dooku's extreme sith reflexes, he could play bass and lead guitar whilst drumming with his feet.
I AM HIS #1 FAN!!!

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Or at least SnakeEyes. lol



Didn't recognize you with your new sig.

*Shifty eyes*

Dey call me... Le Chameleon...

Wow... this was awile ago.

So you revived it just to say that???

Originally posted by Fishy
So you revived it just to say that???
I had nothing else to do, besides all the current threads are crap anyway. Most of em are IKC arguing that Kun is God and we should all bow and worship him.

LOL True

Originally posted by Veneficus
I had nothing else to do, besides all the current threads are crap anyway. Most of em are IKC arguing that Kun is God and we should all bow and worship him.

Someone's bitter...

Originally posted by Wesker
Someone's bitter...

Annoyed yes. Bitter? No. IKC pisses me off becuase the moment someone disagrees with him he reacts as if its the end of the world.

I dunno. Dooku might be on Revan's level in dueling ability. Dunno about force powers.