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Imagin this. Bruce Waynes family grew up fairly poor in the Mean streets of detroit. A random act of Crime kill both his paraent leaving only his uncle alfred to raise him. Bruce grows up to become the vigilante know as "Batman".



Brief costume discription: Hood similar to spidermans but still has horns. Cape used for flying between buildings. Made out of fabric instead of bullet proof armor.


Villin Discription: more crooked cops and drug dealers than guys like jocker.



please tell me what you think. P.S. theres no vow not to kill

um...why not just invent a new character then...no need to change a classic. Notice i didn't say "improve"...but "change."

Thats the problm batman has some really great point its just bad guys like the joker and penguin are murder to the plot.

besides Its more like an alternate universe

Sounds like a bad idea to me. If I wanted to read about a vigilante murdering ordinary criminals, I'd pick up Punisher.

The Penguin sucks. He should really lose the umbrella gimmick because it's not getting him anywhere.

Joker kicks ass though.

Personally, I think if they want to improve Batman, they need to introduce more villians. I mean, how many relatively new villians are there? There's Bane, Harley Quinn, Hush, and that guy who cuts himself every time he kills somebody--and of those three, Bane is dead and the last two are fairly minor. To an extent, this lack of inovations has caused the series to stagnate.

Well, Batman has his share of new villians, but they tend to be one-shots. IE they have their issue or series and they get killed at the end of them. But Bats could use some more new steady villians. Of course, since Batman is human, he can be pitted against more conventional problems (like plague, earthquakes, politics, that kind of thing) then most heroes, since most heroes are powerful enough to make those sorts of things mundane. But with Batman it's interesting, which I think is why Batman doesn't get as many new villians as some other heroes, because the writers have more interesting situations he can be put in that don't nessesarily require a villian.

And how did Bane die?

Im not talking about ordinary criminals more like drug lords and crooked cops. kinpin instead of joker if you know what I mean

Well, with all the technology you'd think Batman would have some sort of self-propelled flight by now at least.

Yeah, I love the whole "grappling hook thingy" idea, but i'd love to see Batman able to fly, like in Batman Beyond. It sounds blasphemous as hell, but I think in this day and age, Bats should be able to at least fly, even if its for short amount of time. Like he's be able to launch himself, and then glide.

A flying Batman would be very realistic, you could limit it so that he still requires his Batwing and Batmobile - I think the idea used in Batman Beyond had the balance just right - he still had to run around an awful lot.

I do not want to see Batman turned into Iron Man. No doubt he should have self-propelled flight, and head-to-toe Azraelesque armor protecting, and low-powered energy weapons to stun his enemies, and use boom-tubes to get around. You'd think, with all of the technology of both Waynetech and the JLA (and probably the JSA, too) at his fingertips, he'd have all these things--but I, for one, am very glad that he doesn't.

BATMAN IS GREAT THE WAY HE IS!

how about gliding from building to building.

1# he needs to kill people

2# more realist villians

The day Batman starts killing people is the day I stop reading Batman comics.

why? are you anti-death penelty? Think about it the joker is one sick puppy he dosent deserve to live. the punisher could have stop joker a long time ago.

I'm anti-murderous vigilante. My take on the death penalty isn't relevant. You said elsewhere that you prefer Punisher to Batman; from your suggestions, it sounds to me like you want to turn Batman into Punisher.

No just a bit more realistic. The biggest problem is batman Is a moody dark character and his vow not to kill kinda is a problem for his character

Batman is realistic to a extent, Joker is like Ted Bundy, they both even have Ties. The villians are realistic in the evil acts they do, If I wanted to I could kill a lot of people and no one can stop me.
Batman deals with the killers, muders and rapeitcs, He deals with villians that harm the public, We in real life have our own outstanding villians, like Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy ete. So imo the villians are realictic.

oh yeah I like Batman the way he is anyway. dont change something that ant broke.

How?
The fact that he will never resort to killing is what separates him deeply from his opponents.Batman is as crazy as his opponents are and the only sane descision he made as Batman is to never kill!

That is what makes the character great imo, is to vow not to kill.

yeah!

the punisher kills villins......and hes very seperate for his villians

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, but it seems pretty clear to me that most Batman fans don't agree with you here. Of course, some people think Batman should kill or be more violent; you only need to read the letter pages durring the Azbat days to realize this. But even more people hated him; they thought he was a violent, unsympathetic psychopath; people swore that they wouldn't pick up another Batman comic until the "real," non-killing Batman came back (and it's not just because they were fans of Bruce Wayne; this didn't happen during the Prodigal story).

You think that things would be improved by getting rid of the Joker and the rest of the Rogue's gallery and replacing them with drug lords and the like. But if you ask people to name their favorite DC villians, a lot of them are going to name the Joker (you can see that on this very board); the fact is that Batman's villains are some of the most well-known, popular villains in the DCU.

So basically what I'm saying is that you have your opinion, and your entitled to it, but you're also in a distinct minority--most people don't seem to want Batman to kill, and most people don't want to see his villains disappear.

Yeah batman needs to be dark,angry,violent,and a full blown vigilanti like woverine or punisher.

I have to agree with spyCspider on this one snakehead.

the main problem is that he needs some more refreshing villins nothing wrong with joker but we need some new guys

Nothing wrong with adding some new villians to the mix I agree on that,BATMAN doesnt have as many qulaity villians as say spiderman,but no need to change his origin story and have him grow up poor in detroit for that. thats why I hated the batman films so muc because they were nothing at all like the comic and your idea is doing the same thing,totally changing the comics.

I've said on this very board that Batman needs more villians. If that was all you were suggesting, I wouldn't be arguing.

Although as I think about it, your idea could make an interesting Elseworld story.

A few more Villians wont hurt, But dont get rid of the old villians too.

Yeah more villains WITHOUT superpowers would be good too.

I like classic style non-super powered villains like Joker, Scarecrow and The Riddler and Two-Face. They are just blokes being bad - with some awesome brain power.

I don't mind the likes of Bane either - but I never understood why the likes of Poison Ivy and Mr Freeze ended up in Batmans world.

And giving Batman self-propelled flight isn't turning him into Iron Man at all. I never even said he should fly - more like boost-and-glide. Iron Man can just fly and can stay flying, Batman would only fly or glide for a few econds before having to land. It would make sense.

Im in total agreement.

Bat-haters just want an excuse to justify their batbashing.I would be very much surprised if half the bat-haters convert into ful fleged bat-fans even if their demands about 'improving' batman are met.

They wont be converted, I love Bats

I also like Spiderman, He is number 3 on my superhero list or so, But I will say Spiderman does not need to be impove, I like Spiderman the way he is, I like Batman the way he is, and I like DD the way he is,

Most super heros do not need to be impove. and Batman is one of the heros's who does not need impovement.

You guys need to read the old Batman comics from the 30s and 40s. He DID kill two thugs on a rooftop, he shot and killed the Monk, he choked Dr. Death's henchman to death, he snapped some thug's neck, he pushed a guy out a window, and pushed a guy into a vat of acid! Batman DOES kill! And Snakehead, I like your idea slightly, yes make him a little more violent, yes let him kill, but no, don't let him be poor, and don't take away the Super criminals. Oh and a Kingpin character in Batman would be slick.

P.S. I'm 1 of Batman's #1 fans

You need to read the Crisis On Infinite Earths, where that version of Batman ceases to exist. In fact, that Batman is nothing like the current Batman. He cracks jokes and says things like, "Being an American citizen is reward enough"; they might as well be two different characters (which, thanks to the Crisis, they in fact are).

Hate to tell you, but some of the events in Crisis have been overturned thanks to series like Zero Hour and Kingdom Come.
Anyway, The Batman, any version of Batman, should never kill. He came close a few times with the Joker, but he never crossed the line completely. And he should not.If he did, and went over the edge, he would be too much like Hal Jordan.

In the cartoon didnt batman get really pissed off at the joker becuz he did something very horrible and tried to kill him or did kill him can't remember.

In Return of the Joker, it was revealed that Batman came close to killing the Joker, after the Joker kidnapped and tortured Robin (Tim Drake). That is the only time I know of where he almost crossed that line.

Most people were not around back in the 30's and 40's and most people know Batman as someone who would NEVER kill under any circumstances.Thats why Burtons Batman movies turned people off because Most people know Batman as the guy who would never take another life no matter how evil they were.That batman that Bat dude mentioned,yeah he killed, but that was when he carried a gun,when he stopped carrying a gun,he did not kill people anymore.Thats why I have a problem with Burtons Batman movies because Batman did not carry a gun in those movies and of course the Batman that stopped carrying the gun in the comics,did not kill anymore.Like it was already mentioned, Batman killing people like The Punisher is a big turn off to many batman fans.

Yeah Batman doesn't kill, drop it, and lets leave it at that shall we?

dude, that sounds sweet to bad that they dont have those kind of things happen now in the new ones

Batman killed early in the comics, but that change starting late 40's early 50's.

Batman has Thorn who is a kingpin like person lol.

But Joker is still tops.

Rupert Thorne is ok but nothing special. I like The Joker and the Riddler the best.
As for what fans today are aware of with regards to the past Batman stories, do you guys even remember A Death in the Family and A Lonely Place of Dying?
They were story arcs in 1988 and 1989 and featured the death of the Jason Todd Robin and the introduction of Timothy Drake, as well as a climatic fight between Batman and the Joker.

Those stories were before I started to collect comics. I've read them both, of course.

Ah good, then you are already familiar with different eras of the comics, and how what happens in one may not affect another, ie Batman killing or angry enough to kill.

I prefer batman not killing under nervous circumstances but it would be cool if once he got pushed to the limits like in return of the joker.

We are in agreement.

Snakehead is the biggest punisher fanboy around. He just wants to ruin a superior character so he can have another gun frenzy freak.

If batman killed people, he wouldn't be batman. I mean, its such awesomness... Joker kills todd and he STILL holds back? That says something about him. He's one powerful mofo to resist THAT kind of urge.

Yeh, but he came pretty close, and he did the same in Return of the Joker, when he finds out what the Joker did to Drake. If it becomes personal, that is when the true test of his vow to never kill but deliver the crooks to the law, occurs.

Dude, I like violent crimefighters, Batman would be Batman if he killed, and how come no one ever talks about another great villian, Reaper! If you've seen Mask of the Phantasm(looks at PunkyHermy) you would know that this original character was the building blocks for Phantasm(an ok character) but nothing beats the original. And Thorn sucks, Bats needs a challenge, and Burton should be given a plaque for his work on BATMAN.

I like Thorn, he was a good villian in the comics, He some how faded away in the early 80's but the cartoon brought him back lol.

No, he would not. No more than Azrael was Batman. Look, you're entitled to your opinions, but if you like violent crime-fighters so much, why don't you just read Punisher, Judge Dredd, or the like, instead of advocating changing a popular character in a way almost none of his fans seem to want?

batman has crossed the line a couple times...when tony zurro or whatever his name is (the guy who killed graysons parents) was released from prison batman knew the mob had a hit on him and watched them kill him, did nothing to stop it...he didnt actually kill him himself but he didnt live up to his vow either....it would be damn impossible for batman to not cross the line at least a couple times

well, dude, I do read Punisher, and I do read Batman, and I've seen the movies too. But Bats is becoming a wimp, he doesn't need the tighite whities over his costume, he doesn't need Robin(but keep Nightwing, though he works in Bludhaven)unless he is older than 16(so Joker won't beat his a**) and he needs an all black costume. And have you read the 1988 Batman issue #423? Quote Alfred: "Is The Batman getting soft on us?" YES! And don't get me wrong but he needs to become more like a practical crimefighter that will do anything to destroy crime(but he still rules comics,second is Punisher, third Flash, fourth Human Torch)

Batman is not getting soft, Batman stays the same, He says he DOES not have the right to take a life.

But dude, don't ya think that they should at least make an elseworlds about that kind of Batman? Maybe make him sorta an enigma (not E Nigma) hard to explain, and let Alex Ross do Batman(he rox, second only to Jim Lee) and bring back the old Bats in HIS own series like "Classic Batman" or "Golden Age Batman Returns" that would be kool, and yes he is getting soft, he even admitted it in that issue! And he doesn't need Cluemaster! All the puzzleholics in his city drives me crazy! Riddler, fine, but no more Cluemaster!

Batmand DOES NOT kill. U take that away and he might as well not be THE Batman we all love! It's that fine line that he is always so on the edge of crossing that makes him so conflicting an dinteresting. He DOES get pushed over the edge, alot. But thankfully hasn't crossed the line yet.

I think that would be interesting. Batman sometimes kills in Elseworld stories anyway (Joker's Wilde and that one set in a theocracy, can't remember its name), so why not?

Well I think it would suck if Batman would kill that is one thing he has ahead of the other Dc biggie Superman. I personnally don't think it would be any improvement if he kills it would just destroy an awesome Character, and correct me if I am wrong but did't he take a gun to go against the reaper in Millers year one (please tell me its Elseworld, oh pleaaaassseeee)
I think there have been a few Elseworlds were Batman killed, I think I remember the Nail for example. So sure your Detroit Batman sounds like a nice story (a little bit like thrillkiller maybe but anyway)

Oh and I think the other time when he came close to killing was during the Hush storyline when he thought the Joker killed hs friend (you know the doctor Thomas something)

Is DKR an elseworlds(ok that was really off topic) but is it? Cuz I heared The DKR Batman was the Silver Age or Earth One Batman

okay...I HATE the idea of 'improvng' batman.The guy is just PERFECT!!!

I agree, the reason the Batman is my favorite character is because of this conflict in him. He has a set of principles, it is the ONLY thing that seperates him from the criminals, but he is always walking the borderline. he is constantly fighting these villians keeping his integrity intact but that question is always there, should he become them in order to stop them.



I completely agree but resisting that temptation is why he is a super hero

Dudez, I don't get why Batman can't kill. I mean, he should, to put it plain and simple. He is getting to soft for people like Two-Face or Mr. Zsaz or whatever he's called. He wears tightie whities over his pants. That is pathetic. At the least he should give up the tightie whities! They are just gay and stupid. Not that Bats is gay and stupid, it's just stupid that he of all people shouldn't kill. (Is DKR an elseworlds?) Well that's my case. And Robin shouldn't even exist, for only one reason, it makes Batman soft. And one more thing, Batman IS getting too soft for some readers, but like I said, at least give the Golden Age Batman his own series, like Batman Classic, or Golden Age Batman Returns. And one more thing, why doesn't Joker from the current Age(the insane one) go to the Golden Age(killing Batman) from now on and the non insane one can go to the current age cuz Batman could have plenty good battles with a non insane Joker(on a count he doesn't kill)

P.S. # 1 Bat-fan(in case you haven't guessed already)

If he killed he would not be a super hero because he has made a commitment NOT to kill. It would be a weakness in him if he ever gave in and killed and Batman is not weak.

I believe DKR is an elseworld.

I never said he was weak, I said that he's getting soft. For three reasons he should kill; 1. It would make an interesting storyline. 2. He needs to be feared more. And I don't mean the intimidation, I mean actual fear, (like, please don't kill me!) Batman 1989 is a perfect example of what Batman should be. Same with Batman Returns. Oh, and if you think Batman Forever never had Batman killing, it did. He killed Two-Face in that movie. So if yo liked that movie cuz he never killed, he did. The only movie he never killed in is Batman and Robin. And I have a question for any hardcore Bat-Fans, Why is there so many puzzleholics out there in Gotham, first it was Riddler, then it was Cluemaster, and who knows, there might be a new villain called the Gamester coming soon.

No I never liked the Batman movies Tim Burton or otherwise, as far as a more interesting storyline there are plenty of elseworlds to satisfy you. Now I do think you're "fear factor" point, no pun intended, is valid. But I dont think having criminals fear him more is worth it.

Well I was reading my Batman Archives Volume 1, and I came across a trio of villians that caught my eye: The Murderous Devils. The three were circus acrobatics. Very Kool

He has cutting edge tech right well they should at least show it once in a while.

Batman isn't a superhero! He's a crimefighter! There is a difference(or if you wanna call him a hero then go ahead but not a super hero) And does anyone know where I could get Batman the animated series vol. 1 and 2?

Someone that Beats up five White Martians is a Superhero if he is Human or not. I mean Look at Green Lantern he is a normal Human he just has a Ring (like Batman has Gadgets) but no one would doubt that he is a Superhero.
I wonder what your Definition of Superhero is, maybe you could give one.

My definition kinda goes like this, Superhero- a man or woman that can do unthinkable feats of strentgh, endurance, or thought; Amazingly powerful; Someone with unspeakable talent, potential, or abilities.
Non of these define Batman, This is how I define Batman- Cowled vigilante of the night; Dark Angel of Gotham; Talented fighter; Incredible mental skill;A man with incredible gadgets and physical prowess(I get these from the Marvel RPG from the 80s)
Here is his Marvel stats...
Fighting: Incredible(40)
Agility: Remarkable(30)
Strentgh: Good(10)
Endurance: Exellent(20)
Reason: Incredible(40)
Intuition: Incredible(40)
Phyche: Incredible(40)
Health:100
Karma:120
Resourses:40
Popularity:15(note, he'e a vigilante)
And that's how I define them both, oh and Michael Keaton is another way I define Batman.

Keaton? err yes, he was the best Batman actor but I wouldn't define Batman through him
And Batman kind of does Incredible things doesn't he

Amazon.com, if you're willing to wait for shipping and stuff. If you're willing to wait a little longer, you can get free shipping, since it costs over $25. Except that vol. 2 isn't out yet.

Then when will it be?