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ok I gotta come back to this one when I have an hour.

Yes..... long very long lol

WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Two words: LINE BREAK


corn

(The Return of Vader piece runs; huge applause)]/b]

So, where can we get this Return of Vader "piece"?


corn

that'd be the question of the moment...I looked all over Hyperspace and couldnt find it. btw guess you got your answer as to how Hayden feels about being Vader eh?

thanks for posting it I'm glad some one was keeping an eye on comic con I had a feeling they going to talk but did'nt know it would be hayden himself .he said fight is going to be great I hope mace windu gets a great death scene for now may vader be with you.

what i think is that anakin balanced the force when he turned to the dark side. because the light side ruled for years and they needed to balance by the dark side ruling for some time.




Vergere said " What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholy to the Force. To be a jedi is to control your passion . . . but jedi control limits your power.Greatness-true greatness of any kind-requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided,not walled away. Leaves your limits behind."

"but-the dark side-"

She rose,her smoldering garments wreathing her in coils of smoke."If your surrender leads to slaughter,that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."

-Star wars The New Jedi Order
Traitor- talk between Jacen Solo and Vergere

ok, here's my theory:
i KNOW its part EU, so don't flame me.
its JUST A THEORY

while playing KOTOR on xbox, during one of the many many loading screens,
the text said something to the idea that there is such thing as a perfect sith. i forget the name, but it alludes to the existence or legend of some kind of uber-sith. it was obviously hinting at palps, right? i think so...so anyway i was thinking...could palps be such a sith? in other words, would he been able to pimpslap maul and dooku all over coroscant at the same time if he wanted to? i think so...

anyway, it seems to me that palpatine was untouchable to everyone accept vader. noone else DARED even think about taking his thrown, but vader planned it all along. (at least from ESB) but thats the nature of the sith right?
in their conversation in ESB, palps knew what vader was planning, as he was making his OWN plans. they were planning to betray eachother, they both knew it, and they were both fine with it. in the end, vader's plan unfolded..kinda

im not sure if anakin will decide to go bad, to eventually kill the sith, but i am pretty sure that yoda and ben will come to the conclusion that vader is the only one powerful enough and close enough to the emporer to destroy him.

i think that luke's purpose was not to destroy the sith, but to bring anakin back to the light.

so thats it, i think palps is WAAAAAAAY more than just another darth. thats why the will of the force was to create anakin. he was the only one powerful enough to shrug off the dark side, kill the super-sith, and save the galaxy.
or else whats the point of the whole "prophecy" thing?

Frankly, PVS, that theory is along the same lines that I myself have come to think of. It makes sense, at least to me, and considering no one could take out Palpatine BEFORE Vader killed him makes me think that his powers far surpassed the average Sith's. Again, a theory, but I agree with you.

I think that if Anakin realizes that he is at fault for Padme's death that his fall to the dark side will be complete and total. It's clear that since he met Padme when he was nine that she has been the only thing that he really loves, besides his mother. Not being a Jedi, not flying space ships or pod racers, not fixing things. Those things are just interesting to him. Once he has lost his mother, Padme is all he has left. And once she is gone, no matter who's fault, he has nothing left. Basically, her death will be the catalyst to his final fall. I say final fall because he's been falling to the dark side since he hugged his mother goodbye on Tatooine. It's the first time he's really felt fear...and we all know that fear is what leads to the dark side. What will make the total fall so instant and over whelming is when he realizes that it was his fault, just like he blames himself for his mother's death.

It's also what makes Palpatine the ultimate villain in the story. From the moment he met Anakin and found out that he may be the ultimate Jedi...the chosen one....that he would make the best apprentice. Palpatine hates the fact that Anakin is a Jedi. It's obvious that Palpatine was never a Jedi. Palpatine views the Jedi way as weak and inferior. It makes Anakin the best candidate for being a Sith. Since Maul was destroyed on Naboo(and Palpatine clearly had the most time to mold him of any of the apprentices he has in the whole story) he knows that the only alternative, due to time constraints, are Jedi. Hence Dooku and Anakin. Palpatine knows from their first meeting that Anakin will become "Vader" so to speak. He knows he can turn him to the dark side....that's why Luke tells him his overconfidence is his weakness. (Granted Vader was right in ESB when he tells Luke that only his hatred can destroy him. When Vader finally pushes that button in Lukes heart and mind about Leia...Luke gives in to his anger and beats Vader. Only when he sees what he will become in the form of the twisted wires hanging out of his fathers wrist is his goodness cemented and permanately instilled) It's also the ultimate fullfilment of the propechy. The Emperor thinks he can avoid bringing balance to the force by corrupting Anakin...but that is the LARGEST and most important aspect of the prophecy.

Clearly however, Obi-Wan feels a major sense of responsability in the whole situation.(other wise he wouldn't have spent the last half of his life hiding on Tatooine watching over Luke) He trained Anakin, he failed to show him the error of his ways...and emotions. But when you get right down to it, Obi-Wan is really the most innocent person in the whole story. He found himself in a position where he felt obligated to take on Anakin as a padawan. On top of that, as good and innocent as Anakin seemed...he was just a weak child when he left his mother. And on top of that still, Anakin is the chosen one...and Yoda, Qui-Gon, Windu, Kenobi...all of the others, are just pawns in the will of the force. Yoda knew what was going to happen...maybe not to the extent that actually came about...but he knew that Anakin shouldn't be trained...he already had too much attachment to the things in his life. That's why kids are taken away to be Jedi before they're old enough to become attached to their parents. It was the short sightedness of the other members of the council that eventually led to Yoda being "out voted", in a manner of speaking, and Anakin being trained as a Jedi. But that's the whole point of the prophecy in the story. It happens because it was meant to happen. Only Yoda, and Obi-Wan to an extent, knew that it would be bad for the future of the galaxy. They just didn't realize that Anakin HAD to fall in order to be redeemed at the right time and place where he could destroy the Emperor and bring balance back to the force. Which is why Anakin is the chosen one.

damn, you people just love to type.

i think what we are all touching on is that there is alot more
going on with anakin's role and in the plot of ep3 (and the saga in general) than we are let to beleive.

By the way, does anyone give any merit to that Midichlorian stuff? Cause thats supposed to be the judge in same way or another. Also, maybe Anakin himself does not bring balance to the force, but his son, Luke, does. Yes, Anakins actually journey through the darkside and back is the direct relation to the balance, but Luke was the catalyst for that catharsis, so maybe Luke is the real "balance-bringer."

(Oh and if Anakin wrote a book, wouldnt it be titled, "There and Back Again: A Jedi's Tale? Haha I crack myself up sometimes....or not)

i think you are right and wrong:
luke was indeed the catalyst, but doesn't that mean that
anakin is the one? luke's job was to talk vader into performing an action:
kill palpatine. anakin was the one who took action.

if you agree that luke was to weak to beat palps, but anankin wasn't, then you must see that anakin is the one. besides...emaculate conception!!?!
thats a dead giveaway my friend.

Haha true, just throwing some ideas into the mix. But frankly I think Anakin = Jesus in a galaxy far, far away. hahaha

hysterical

Of course Anakin is Jesus. I mean note the similarities. Already stated was the fact that they were both conceived in a strange and unconventional manner. Then theres the hair, Im sure if there were pictures of Jesus when he was around the age Anakin was in Episode I, they would look identical. Both of em had shitty jobs as kids: one was a slave repair boy and the other was a lowly carpenter, but both were extremely skilled in their craft. Anakin now has long hair in ROTS, and Jesus always had long hair (if Anakin was horribly burned, I surely think he would have grown some facial hair, a la Jesus). Both of them die, in a way, to bring balance to their respective worlds/galaxies and both died with a sense of betrayal, Anakin from Obi and Jesus from the Jews/God ("Father, why have you foresaken me?". It all fits a bit too perfectly for my tastes....I smell a Christian propaganda plot lurking deep inside the Star Wars plot! Hahaha

Sanata.....paragraph breaks are your friend :P

I have a couple of thoughts on this whole thing.

1) Anakin isn't the one to bring balance, but his son is...

2) By destroying Palpatine in RoTJ, Anakin restores balance to the force.

But that begs the question, why does Qui Gon believe that the force is unbalanced in the first place? At the beginning of Ep.I, the jedi believe that the sith are extinct, so how is the force unbalanced? Qui Gon seems to believe that Anakin is the force of good to balance out the evil. Maybe the movie will have the answers but I doubt it.

Also, will Padme die in the movie? If you remember Leia in RoTJ, she says that she sort of remembers her mother, mostly that she was sad. I don't think Padme dying will push Anakin over the edge, but Palpatine will somehow convince Anakin that Dooku was the one responsible for his mother's death, and killing Dooku turns Anakin to the dark side, ala the same way Palpatine wanted Luke to kill his father.

Isn't speculation fun?

you jest about the jesus parallel, but i think it's true.
and when you think about it,
he's also a martar like jesus.
(not to get all biblical, but think about it)

my reasoning:
the jedi we see in ep1 are useless.
they are so weak and blind that in the begining of ep2
they are sitting in the sith lord's office and DONT EVEN KNOW IT.
not only that, but they accept councelling from his as well.
they are flawed and weak, from a millenia of no war.
anakin see's that the jedi are useless...enter palps...

They refused at first to even beleive the sith existed.
They treated anakin with total apathy (except obiwan) from
the time he was introduced. obiwan tries his damndest, but cannot keep
anakin in line...and noone helps...noone seems to care.
anakin feels alone and isolated...enter palps...

and the republic, completely functionless. not only that,
but a power vacume waiting to happen, since its so easy to force
the chancellor out. anakin witnesses this and realises that it all
needs to change...enter palps....

thanks to all the powers that be, anakin never had a chance.
his fate was to become vader.

so who saves all these high and mighty folks? a slave boy.
and look at the price he must pay to save them all.
he suffers for 20+ years and finally dies.
that, i think, is a martar.

Oh Good Gravy another Sci-Fi look at religion (think Matrix) :P

That is so very true. Obviously a lot is drawn from the bible and pulp noir 30s stylized elements. I agree that the parrallels are there, I only joke because it seems hilarious to me that we're comparing a 2000 belief structure to a series of pop-culture iconic films. Haha, I guess this is why .02% of the population claim their religion is Jedi.

"But that begs the question, why does Qui Gon believe that the force is unbalanced in the first place? At the beginning of Ep.I, the jedi believe that the sith are extinct, so how is the force unbalanced? Qui Gon seems to believe that Anakin is the force of good to balance out the evil. Maybe the movie will have the answers but I doubt it."

I think that the prophecy will deal with more that we have heard so far (theory). i believe it will state something alluding to an all-powerful dark force taking power, and the chosen one defeats him. that -i think- is why yoda and mace don't like the idea of anakin being the chosen one in ep1, because they know that the S*** has to hit the fan before balance is restored.

Oh and Im not trying to start the Sci-Fi/Religion thing, but it would be foolish not to note the glaring similarities. The Matrix had em too. Its cool to talk about them, but not too deeply, cause some of those Matrix fanatics are wacko. But definately, a lot of fiction today is borrowed from various religious backrounds and age-old tales.

That's a very cool theory PVS, I never thought of it like that. So, maybe Qui Gon believed that the sith were never really gone in the first place!

no need to defend yourself Alfeetoe,
its blatently obvious that anakin is a messiah character.
the whole saga is based on "the force", which is their religion.
is clear as day

You just contradicted yourself. 1 is wrong, but 2 is right

And to add my opinion about the whole "balance to the force" thing:

I believe that a key line in the whole Saga is when Yoda says to Obi-Wan and Mace that a more common problem with Jedi, even the older...more experienced...is their egos and their overconfidence...

Well, this is why the Jedi purge is part of the "bringing balance" to the force it's also kind of like cleaning house, as it were. The whole Jedi clock is set back to zero. See my earlier post for more clearification. (for anyone who is actually interested in the topic of the thread)

So, Luke is "the new hope"...while Anakin is the chosen one of the old generation.

I'm just going to put my two cents in...Dunno if this was said already nor do I care...

Anakin was supposed to bring the force back to balance, correct? So...If you have 10000000 jedi and 2 sith, how is that balanced? It isn't...

Anakin was ment to kill all the Jedi from the beginning, he was ment to balance the force...

BALANCE is when the Light side is "all"...UNBALANCE is when the Dark Side has people on it...aka the Sith...I know thats not real clear but thats as good as I can explain it...

"Anakin was supposed to bring the force back to balance, correct? So...If you have 10000000 jedi and 2 sith, how is that balanced? It isn't..."

neither is 1 jedi vs. 0 sith, as in the end of RotJ

you are missing my point hun.......its not balance in the literal sense...

here's my take on balance:

the jedi use the force to help others, while knowing they can't conquer evil.
when the jedi were around, there was still evil, as well as good.
like the hutts trading slaves, nemoidians craving wealth and power,
gungans being annoying...like yin and yang, there was a balance.
but under the emporer, the scale was tipped entirely to the dark side.
sith use the force to conquer everything and everyone, extinguishing "good".
everything becomes evil, and all that is good hides in fear.

so, when you think about it, evil is not conquered in RotJ,
but balance is still restored.

ok ok I KNOW I read that somewhere you gonna make me go look for it arent you PV?

i cant help you there.
thats my own deduction.
but im sure many have come to that conclusion...
perhaps even GL?

"neither is 1 jedi vs. 0 sith, as in the end of RotJ"

Right...And that's where EU comes into play.

Nope, you're all wrong. Balance has just as much to do with the "light" side of the force as it does with the dark side existing at all. Remember the line in ATOC when Yoda says that over confidence and ego are a problem with the Jedi, even the older and more experienced. Hence the purge! The Jedi had to be cleaned out...just like Anakin had to fall for Palpatine to be destroyed

Too...many...words...can't...handle...overloading...

Was that all in one breath sanata?...damn!

Yes, evil is inherently more powerful

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."
--George Lucas

thanks JP

there you have it, right from the horses mouth.
that should silence the know-it-alls

I think as the film nears so will anticipation to see the darkside take over in 2005 when the film opens I think this movie will be the film of next summer for now got to catch a ship.

fresh from theforce.net:

The moment Darth Vader wakes up from his slumber, and Anakin Skywalker truly is no more, the force will cease to exist in the land of the living. No more force sensitive children will be born... And all that will remain are those that had the gift before the dark times came, and managed to survive the first waves of the purge.

The last two force sensitive beings to come to existance, will be Luke and Leia, born mere seconds before their father's death... And the only survivors of the actual Jedi purge, that will go on for a great many years after the events of ROTS, are, as we all know, Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The four of them survive, not to save the galaxy, but to save the man that will.


so i guess the whole "balance" thing goes even deeper than what we've discussed.

Thats Gabe's theory....and I kinda like it myself!

makes sense

and the thread at TFN's forums discussing Gabes theory is on fire at the moment!

yeah, those tf.n forums get pretty crazy.

I subscribe to the idea that it is a possibility that the Jedi will never rise again. Especially not the way that Supershadow says they will.

when they say balance to the force, do they mean light and dark or what, cuz why would they want that.

uh Getto...maybe read from the beginning of the thread

So, Anakin probably did not know that padme was pregnant. I'm sure if he did, he and Palpatine would have scoured the universe looking for them. That also precludes Padme dying in the movie.

It has been confirmed that Anakin does INDEED know that Padme is pregnant.

Anakin knows of the pregnancy. This is proven in numerous different spoilers all over the internet. Just accept it.

Yeah, last I checked he was aware of Padme being pregnant. It'd be pretty messed up if he didn't know.

Ok, but if that's the case, why wouldn't he and Palpatine search everywhere for him? Maybe they do, and the reason that Luke is on Tatooine is that the place holds such terrible memories for Vader, that we will not go back there....only thing I can think of.

I can see your point about them searching everywhere for him, but so far we accept that he was just "hidden" And remember, once Luke was learning the ways of the force, the Emperor sensed that he would be a threat because he was powerful, so that's when they started going after him.

Vadar never searched for his children because he thought they were dead, as he is told Padme is dead, hence, the new dialogue added to ESB.

Emperor: ...I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker

Vadar: How is that possible?

etc...etc.

Blimwy, some people need their presentational skills improving!

The important points havre already been made, but I shall summarise them:

1. Anakin is the Chosen One, NOT Luke. That is direct from GL, and is not up for debate.

2. Balance involves the elimination of the Sith. It is NOT literal balance between the Light and Dark proponents in the Galaxy, which is a highly superficial view. By GL's definition that would not be balance. Balance is achieved at one point only- when the Sith are defeated, because it is the Sith, and the Dark Side, that unbalance the Force. No, the Jedi were not meant to die, and their doing so was nothing to do with Balance- it was a calamity, pure and simple.

People have got to get it out of their head that Anakin did an ultimately 'right thing' by destroying the Jedi. He did not! That removes hius moral complicity in his own downfall and undermines the entire point of the story! The whole point is that Anakin, due to personal attachment, deliberately rejected his own destiny by destroying the Jedi INSTEAD of the Sith. Now, as we know, in the heroic scale of things, Luke eventually manages to convince Anakin to fulfill his original destiny as well. But the evil he perpetrated in helpng to enslave the Galaxy and eliminate the Jedi remains just that- toally eveil- and should never have happened (though the story would be far more dull if it had not).

And this, as quotes provided have shown, is from GL as well.

Remember- evil (Sith) unbalances, good (Jedi) balances. The balanced Galaxy is the one with the Jedi in charge.

The Phantom Menace refers to the unbalancing force of the Dark Side which is growing and will destroy the Balance, as QGJ sensed. In Return of the Jedi, we come full circle as Balance is restored, and Luke will begin the whole Jedi thing again.

So people like Captain Fantastic really should check their facts before calling everyone else wrong, because it is he who is gravely mistaken.

One other thing- Anakin is not Jesus. GL's inspiration from these things comes from earlier mythologies.

"Vadar never searched for his children because he thought they were dead, as he is told Padme is dead, hence, the new dialogue added to ESB.

Emperor: ...I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker

Vadar: How is that possible?"

whether you are right or wrong depends on the dialogue in the new dvd.
in the OOT, in the beginning of ESB, vader sees the hoth base on screen and says "the rebels are there....I am sure young skywalker is with them"

therefore, he knows he is "skywalker", therefor his son.

and THEREFORE he is hiding luke's identity from the emporer

Oh yeah, i completely forgot about that.

I guess that does mean he is hiding Luke from The Emperor.

I have to disagree there Mordecai. Vader simply puts 2 and 2 together at the end of ANH.

As the X-wings and Tie Fighters are zooming through the channel of the original Death Star

Vader "The force is strong with this one"

After ANH, Vader has to have figured out the Kenobi simply hid his son from him, since as stated in a previous post, that once Vader is completely and thoroughly turned to the dark side, no more force sensitive beings are born.

I've never believed that line 'The Force is Strong with this one' meant anything other than Vader commenting on this person's apparent luck/skill in evading his fire. If he really thought he had run into a Jedi potential I think he would have exclaimed rather more than that.

After Commander Skywalker is hailed by the rebels as a hero after ANH, of course... THEN he can put it all together.

Ushgarak, if he felt that the force was strong in him, thats a giveaway.
if the force is strong in someone, then they have jedi potential.
plus, vader knows as well as ben that there is no such thing as luck.
also, vader is "the best starpilot in the galaxy", so to evade him exhibits extraodinary power with the force.

vader can see that luke knows his moves before they happen, thus precognition, thus he's force-sensative.

either that, or vader felt the presence of kenobi.

or both...

either way, he felt the force at work in those events.

We have never seen any evidence anywhere that you can just 'feel the force' in someone. Vader feels Kenobi's mind because he has felt it so often before but feels nothing from Luke at the time, despite his potential; Qui-Gon guesses it in Anakin from his actions and reactions (and that he feels the Force brought him there for a reason).

It's not what Vader meant. He meant the guy was skilled/lucky. "May the Force be with you," people say in Star Wars- meaning, good luck! If the Force is 'with you', you do really well! Not necessarily a comment on someone's Jedi powers.

And the whole point is that it is what you and I would call luck- he calls it the will of the Force. They replace luck with the vagueries of the Force.

I am certain- Vader would have sounded a LOT more surprised than he was if he thought a Jedi potential was in that ship.

Listen to his tone of voice! It's not "Bloody hell, a new Jedi!" The tone is "Hmm, this one is proving a bit tricky..."

"a tremor in the force, the last time i felt it was in the presence of my old master"

the tremor and obiwan are seperate in that sentence.

when another who is powerful in the force is around vader, he can feel the force in them.

EDIT> plus, you are born with power in the force, but it takes much training to hone in on that power and be a jedi...thus vader doesn't assume its a jedi.

When I said 'Jedi' that obviously was not literal as they barely existed at the time. The point stands.

The 'tremor' in the Force is simply him sensing Obi-wan; that is the kind of language they use.

but obiwan's presence creates a disturbance in the force.

i read somewhere (i forget) that the force is like a still pond...the presence of one using the force creates a ripple, which is what other force-users sence. not the person, but the disturbance.

if not, vader would not have felt the tremor and later realize it was kenobi.
fact is, he first felt the tremor in the DS hangar, then went off to meditate on it.

if he sensed ben's presence, and his identity, he would have stormed the Millenium Falcon and tore it apart looking for him.

Anakin = Jesus. Whether GL's influences stemmed from earlier mythologies or not, his man inspiration, and given time I can quote this, is from the christian belief structure. The whole fallen Jedi's becomming Sith ressonates the Paradise Lost fall from grace depiction. Either way, whether the intention was there or not, Anakin becomes a Jesus like figure; Jesus being the most recognizable of the draws, and one that most people can easily see.

no no no Im not buying this

Haha not many people do, but its obviously there

from a certain point of view.........yours

MINE TOO

Hey hey, its not JUST my view. And cmon now, myself and others have already made the points to back it up, so you just gotta see whats going on. Im not trying to tear apart SW like the Matrix was, but the blatant similarities make for some interesting discussion. haha, yeah, it does sound rediculous, but oh well

ok YOURS too.....but the Priestess is NOT buying Anakin is Jesus and never will boys...

Thank you PVS. Haha

yeah...immaculate conception...just coincidence...

nothing to see here...please disburse...nothing to see

^^^^^^^
your sig? WTF?

look, its not LITERALLY jesus JP,
but the parallels are there.

also: anakin in the end must sacrifice himself to bring balance.

yeah, i made yet another sig

ooooooo thats (the sig) just wrong in SO many ways PVS

kk imma go check tfn later peeps

thats why i made it

revenge of the sith spongemonkeys

that's a bit odd.

The Jesus parallels are only there because of part of GL's basic theory about all myths being the same myth. But Anakin is not immaculately conceived- he is a child of the Gods, like Achilles or Aeneas.

Hmm...makes sense I guess.