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Educationally, Arab nations rank extremely low in relation to the rest of the world.

Illiteracy rates in the beginning of the 21st century is well into 60 million adults with the majority being women.

expenditures in scientific research are among the lowest in the world. Arab nations lag behind technologically.

Books translated into Arabic is about 330 books annually, 1/5 of the number that greece translates.

In the digital divide, Arabs represent 5% of the world population yet only 0.5% of Internet users.

Political participation = less advanced in Arab world than other developing nations. Out of 7 world regions they had the lowest freedom score. Women's freedoms in this region equals the lowest evidenced by lack of women in govt and the work force in general.

Richer in natural resourses (oil) than any of the DEVELOPING nations, the Arab world is just as if not more underdeveloped. Clearly the Arab world exists only in development of the vast oil riches, and LESS in human development, as it is a region of the world that contributes little else to its people and globally...

WHY?.

Question:

1.Is Islam holding Arab Nations back, or is it something else entirely?


Ok i believe this post might be a bit controversial
If anyone feels insulted by this post please email me or the mods to delete but please state a reason.

No.Infact I'd say it's Islam that keeps than going, especially now that things aren't going so well for them these days. It's the faith that keeps them going...
Education wise, it IS NOT Islam's fault that they aren't educated.It's the governments!And they are all democracies mind you!They economies are low, not enough money to spend on educating the nations...it's all gone to provide the people with food and other neccesities.It's an ongoing cycle.And Islam is a religion that promotes education.Then agian there are so many sects of Islam that have been...let's say not 'proper' muslims in the sense that they do stuff the religion not neccesarily influences them too.
Women and Islam go hand in hand. The covering up is controversial,but most of the stuff against it are just predjudiced remarks.

In the middle ages Islam like the Bible to Europe caused education to skyrocket. Like punkey points out it doesn't have anything to do with their religion its the governments that do.

I think it is holding it back.

they have their self to blaim, too much religion and war...some of them aint interessted in letting the countries grow!

This isn't a philosophical topic, so the GDF is the appropriate place.

The topic can stay open as long as there aren't insulting or provocative posts.

Wahhabism is a dangerous-militant brand of Islam that preaches intolerance and violence towards those of different faiths. Wahhibism is mostly coming out of Saudi Arabia.

I think islam is holding the world back.

I hate to sound like I am bashing Islam, but the religion has become so radicalized it does not stick to its roots of peace.

I feel that religion is holding every nation back.

really?I don't think u know what u are talking about...

The distinction between religion and government needs to be clear for a country to be going forward.

As soon as you mix those to it begins holding any country back. As said before, every religious dominated country is held back by its apparent principles.

Religion should not have infulence in the governments leadership.

the religion is silly!! Anyone who believes you can blow yourself up with 100 innocent's, then nail 40 virgins in heaven is just asking for hard times!!!

And Christinanity isnt?

I don't think Islam itself is holding Arab nations back at all. It's the fundamentalists that get into power and warp the religion to suit their needs.

Let's stop worrying about what happens to us when we throw a seven and get busy making things better for everyone while we're all here.

The fact of the matter is...you dont see any christians hijacking plans or blowing themselves up..islamic people have just seemed to turn into phycos. There religion is ruining the world. Say im iggnorant say whatever you want, but deep down I know a lot of people feel the same way.

Lots of ignorant people in this world.
...to judge millions over the actions of a few.

oh and the Branch Davidians would be considered sane.
What about the bombing in Oklahoma, christian upbringing on that dude.


ok you are indeed ignorant and so are those who feel the same way. As Tex so galantly said it judge millions over the actions of few.

Kid Rock, should we judge a nation over the action of those soldiers in the Iraqi prison?

I think (for once) that he's right! coz, as a christian I cant believe sum1's comparing islamic religion with christianism, coz erm... england, is a really cool and developed country and is a christian country (anglican) and erm... i never see english ppl blowing up themselves so tht they can make love to i dunno how many virgens in the world, so christian ppl dont do crazy things... well..exepct burn HP books... but thats just sum ppl. and nobody dies of that

u know there's crazy ppl everywhere!!! but the christian church doenst say 'KILL PPL AND U'LL GO TO HEAVEN!!' c'mon!! u should read the bible sometime !!! in the rules of moises says 'dont kill' and of course that there will b some christians fanatics.. like in evry single religion!! well exepct perhpas they 'jedi' no offense to any1

no they just did that deed to destroy multiple cultures around the world in the name of the bible and the church. So christians wake up it is time you all took responsibility for what the so called holy church has done to the world

. i have had enough of that fairy tale, so an eye for an eye is from what book??????????

no you never knew how to deal with competition.

there are so many ignorant people on these boards...

Actually, no finti. Eye for an eye comes from Babylonian ancient law passed by Hammurabi, law better known as Lex Talionis.

It has next to nothing to do with the bible.

I never read the bible, but i believe that bible preaches that if someone does something wrong to you, you turn the other cheek. That doesnt mean that everyone follows, however.

Im not religious person, if anything, im Buddhist, but I fail to see how direct attack on Christianity is explaining ''is Islam holding Arab Nations Back'' debaite.

Its absolutely wrong to drag crusades into this conversation, because such things as Ottoman empire should be talked about all the same. Just because it didnt affect your history it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

I dont think it matters what happened in the past, I think the debaite is asking wether the Arab Countries are held back by Islam today.

Also debaiting on whos crazier Christians or Muslims is also just a dumb, it has nothing to do with the argument, and it is well known that all religious nuts, regardless of their religion are as bad as each other.

People use religion to go to war, its a well known fact, and it isnt the first time it happened. Christians have done some nasty thigs to their people they believed were witches, or those who opposed or any kind of different people were blamed for all the wrongs, no one denies that.

But the one upside to Christian countries in the west, is that unlike in Arabic countries, homosexuals are not publicly stoned to death.
This was brought on by those religious nuts who get in power and pass dumb laws.

Then again, America is a Christian country, and the only one in the whole industrialized world that still enforces capital punishment.

Omega right as always.

Aside from it being the directly quoted creed of the Old Testament- still very much believed in by very many Christians- and who thought of it first is in dispute. 'Lex Talionis' is simply Latin for 'law as retaliation' and applies to any system that uses the idea, not specific to Hammurabi.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any religion that at some time hasn't been associated with heinous crimes, all in the name of their deity's word.

Buddhism? For all I know no war was ever started in the name of Buddha...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

(But then - Buddhism I think is more a philosophy than a religion. Buddha is a guide and teacher - not a God).

thumbsup Spot on The Omega!

Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion. Buddha never claimed to be a god nor that hes sent by god or anything similar, like you said he was a teacher.
And no, you're right, yet again, no war was ever fought in the name of Buddha or Buddhism.

We don't have the right to talk about Islam because we don't KNOW about it!You can't be christian and KNOW Islam, for instance jsut as you can't be a Muslim and KNOW Christianity.

Why not Punkyhermy?

All the major religions with the possible exception of Buddhism have gone through intolerant phases at different points. Islam as the youngest is going through one right now.

is it holding countries back?

(correct me if I'm wrong, the subject was a long time ago since I last got it)

The religion is 622 years younger than the christian one, it started when Mohammed had to flee... Mekka, I believe? or was that Medina?

so... if you compare it to us, using the christian counting, they live in 1382... Did WE (as christian countries) got holden back by the church?
HELL YES we did.
I suggest you read De Ecclesiastica Potestate by Giles of Rome and Defensor Pacis by Marsilius of Padmos. Two books going exactly about that...

except for the little dispute thats been going on in Nepal for about 50 years now

if that was the way they all would be ignorant

an enemy is always needed, like we Norwegians never forgott the Danish rulings even though the Swedes are our arch rivals...................funny cause we never ever lost to the Swedes so we should target you flatlanders

OK so someone can honestly tell me on these boards that there are as MANY christians hijacking plans cutting off peoples heads and suicide bombing as there are muslims doing it?


I hate it when people say "Oh you judge all muslims as raving terrorists just because some do bad things" Look at all the 9/11 hijackers..were any of them white? Were any of them christians? I highy doubt it.

no, but I do know of this things we call Crusades were thousands of innocent people died... I believe if memory serves that christians participated in those

How many hundered of years ago was that?


How can you actually compare the crusades to modern times. Thats just stupid.

that's because you fail to understand that Islam is 622 christian years younger

if you compare those two religions, you have to keep in mind that one is younger and when you place them in the same timeframe, christians have proved themselves to be very brutal already

So christians proved themselves to be brutal..what is it Islams turn? ha.

and the bomber in Oklahoma? And what has the colour of their skin to do with anything.
You still judge millions by the action of few, you obviously doesnt get the point at all. So here is a little thing for you then since we are gonna be on your level, the ignorant one.
All Americans must be bad consider the action of the soldiers toward the prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison.

what I'm saying is that you judge a religion by your 2004 standards but fail to see that the age the islam has compared to christianity at that age is roughly the same... only in quite some countries, the islam is actually much and much more modern already than christianity at that time

I think the Arabs hold themselves back

dontgetit since when is that dispute have anything to do with 'religion' of Buddhism?? Please, please emlighten me, since Buddhist ''extreamist'' are not even allowed to be soldiers.

dont have to be soldiers to be part of a dispute.

oh an example of Buddist going bananas Buddhists angered by Christian "conversions" in Sri Lanka have burned down a Catholic church near Colombong. And don't forget 1614, when Tokugawa Ieyasu outlawed Christianity, or 1627-1638, when tens of thousands of Christians were killed or tortured by the primarily Buddhist Japanese

Anything which happened hundreds of years ago is immaterial.
The problems posed today are not. Stay on topic people.

that's rather easy to say shaber... "just forget the past", if you do that every religion is pure and holy

I still cant see the good points of islam...All it seems like is extremestist blowing themselves up to prove there worth of allah or w/e

and all I can see in christianity are people against the use of condoms, people who butchered innocent during the crusades, people who bossed other countries around in the middle-ages and admitted that they acted terrible as with the shism (sp) of 1054 only to get very aggresive at the start of the 14th century when people dare not to listen to them


if you rate every person as extremist, be ready to be judged as one too

That's all old stuff yers!
Christians are nice now! hypocrite

I still live in the past... pre-Bjork era to be precise

yeah, but no religion or celeb ... or bjork held a nation back

There not blowing themselves up to prove there worth if u where a muslim u would understand.

Funny you didnt mention anything within the last 500 years...


I saw on the news yesterday a bomber killed 3 kids in israel.

thats your problem, try to learn and understand a bit about Islam before even consider discussing it.

sure

2004-500=1504 right?

so, ... what about the colonisation by spain and portugal of the "new world" where native americans were brutally slayed for their gold all in the name of christianity and converting people to the "true faith"?

I don't have the book here but it states the estimate of how many MILLIONS of people died, thanks to that baptising.

Or... how about the Reformation (16-17th Century)?
The war Spain held against their colony of The Lowlands costed many lives too. Not to mention the impact people like Hus and other more famous persons had with their new views on christianity.

but lets keep it more closer to this century huh?
How about WW 1? The germans had "Gott mitt uns", ... so with your own narrow vission on things ("all people who follow the islam are terrorists), this means that every german soldier who killed someone in that war, did so because his god instructed him to do so.

or how about mister Bush (hey, come on guys, you knew someone would mention him)? He finished his speeches with "And God bless America" or what ever.
By the SAME pov you have, this means that the innocent people killed in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed in the name of his god.

You need more?

FINTI: GOD bless you, for being so realistic and open-minded. ur one of the best people i haf ever heard of

YERSOOT: Prophet Muhammad flew from Mecca to Madinah since the arab tribes in that time were so hostile to him and his belief that there is only one GOD and that is ALLAH. and thank you for being so open-minded and realistic

Islam is a religion of peace,and so is every other religion, Islam is an out-standing religion, but unfortunately these days the people that are famous muslims are actually extremists who dont know what they are doing. they are not true muslims. there is terrorism in every religion, only that in Islam it is shown a lot more. Arab as a government is not right, Islam is an amazing religion, only if you get to really know what it is, rather than seeing what is on television and coming to conclusions. ( i am a muslim myself and i only have one favour, and that is to truly understand what islam is, and that the people that you see on television are terrorist and not MUSLIMS as they claim to be)

alic88 Your right but Muhammed didn't fly to madinah.

oh ya well lol...... atleast there is sum kind of humour in this topic

Yes because Islam is a religin of hate and intolerance

"kill those that do not believe in alaih" - Koran

hey Snakehead

read the rules respect other peoples religion

Thats never been enforced for christiananity.

SNAKEHEAD i swear i haf had it.. YOU SHOULD OBEY THE RULES AND RESPECT MY RELIGION.. U HAF NO IDEA HOW ANGRY I AM....!!!!!!!!

then why was half the world forces into christianity then? Even in my country, Norway, christianity was forced uppon us. It was either to convert or die.

Then why not fight back? Someone forces you to do something defend yourselves.

....Or I'll....I'll....blow you up!!!!

the kings converted so they had people at their will who could read and write and in general make it very easy to have administration
and they had an excuse to have a war going on where they could take land "because they converted people"

so, they had an entire army against them when they tried to pull it off
(not sure about the situation in norway but here that was the case)

dont know much about history in Eurpoe huh?
It happen 1000 years ago and they did fight back and they beat the so called king who enforced christianity uppon us. Fact is a lot were already christian but they felt he did it the wrong way. They joined forces with his opponents and beat him 29 of july 1030. The Kings name was Olav Haraldson later to be canonised by Rome to become St. Olav (St Olaf in English since they have a problem spelling foreign names correctly)

Now we do as we chose when it comes to religion in Norway even if we have to have christiainity in school for 9 years

well, whatcha know, it was the same in norway

oh, and to add, they also changed some facts and took over some parts of the other religions, but everyone knew that already

And what religion didnt do that yerssot? All organized religions have changed and took bits from other religions and made their own.

Aaah! it happen 1,000 years ago. Back when Kings had power in Europe. I see what you mean.

Seeing as the bible considered and still considers the kings as subjects to the pope, it's still happening

I don't bow to any King or Queen!

I read ya, I bow to some queens though

You mean Queenies?

I use the term Chickies

nor do I but I rather bow for royalty before listening to any MPriest, Vicar, Clergyman, Bishop, Pope,Minister, Iman, Rabbi, holy man or whatever title a religious spokesperson uses

Yersott can you tell me that there are more inicent deaths in the past lets say 100 years from christianity then there is from islam?

considering WWI and WWII were in the last century... I would think so yes...

the conflicts in Northern Ireland, Bosnia Herzegovina

Shirk-an arabic word-is the most appropriate word for translating the word "freedom" in Article 18 of the Universal Declaration for Human Rights, which is posed as an ideal to be attained: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion; this includes freedom to change his religion."

The muslim author of the above words Fatima Mernissi readily concedes, shirk, the ultimate, unpardonable sin of blasphemy and the exact opposite of Islam, stands for freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. A muslim is not free to believe or do what he wishes. He is under Islamic law, which is the only legal, legitimate, moral, and rational code. That is the most important "fruit" of Islam, from which a variety of others have sprouted. Fatima Mernissi, Islam and Democracy, London, 1993, p. 87

--Serge Trifkovic, The Sword of the Prophet, 2002

I apoligize greatly. I might have been a bit frazled when I read the verse about killing non believers.

According to an undisputable hadith , Muhammad once said to a group of women: "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked what was deficient in their intelligence and religion, and he replied:

"Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative(yes). He said: "This is the deficiency of your intelligence....Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstrual period?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said: "This is the deficiency in your religion." -- Sahih of Al-Bukhari, vol.1, Hadith No. 301, See also vol. 3 Hadith No. 826.

Interestingly, Muhammad does not command women to fast or to pray during their menstrual period, and then takes that as conclusive evidence of their lack of faith...



--Serge Trifkovic, The Sword of the Prophet, 2002

apologies for the double post, but in addition to my previous post:

We are, nevertheless, often told by contemporary apologists for Islam that the usual modus operandi of the early Muslims-attacking other people's lands, pillaging, raping, robbing, and extorting-should be judged in its "context," that this was normal behaviour at the time. The same understanding, however, is not extended towards those Europeans-often coarse and decidedly unpleasant characters that joined the Crusades-who attempted to turn the tables and take the battle back into the enemy camp, and whose actions those same Western friends of Islam so sternly condemn -- Notably e.g. Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong

The emerging sense from the language is that the militant expansion of the Muslims was appropriate and understandable, but defeats that were inflicted on them by their rivals(the crusaders) were not, and the truth about the life of non-Muslims under Islam remains censored...


--Serge Trifkovic, The Sword of the Prophet, 2002

all nice and fun to read, but you forgot to mention that "muslim" is a follower/believer of Islam (I need to get my book here again, but I believe it means "subjected to Allah"

so, of course a muslim is under Islamic law like a christian gets told to uphold the 10 commandments and jezus his teachings too

forgive my ineptness...but i fail to see your point...the subject being is islam holding back arab nations...islam's transliteration is "to submit" wholely, bodily, spiritually to Allah....

QUOTE: Muhammad described the three most important works a man could perform as faith, war in the path of Allah, and a blameless pilgrimage...

...The view of modern Islamic activists, that "Islam must rule the world and until Islam does rule the world we will continue to sacrifice our lives," is neither extreme nor even remarkable from the standpoint of traditional Islam...

It has been divinely sanctioned from the moment Muhammad had established a safe power base in Medina:
"O Prophet! Rouse the Believers to the fight," and the Qu'ran orders, and promises that 20 Muslims, "patient" and "persevering," would vanquish 200 unbelievers; if a 100, they will vanquish a 1000...--Qu'ranic verse 8:65 END QUOTE

unfortunately i believed that too...but it's roots were anything but peaceful...

Islam is a religion that preaches many things the terrorist just want to destroy the world and thats what I think.

How about the burning of Smyrna by the Ottoman Empire in the 1920's???

QUOTE: At the destruction of Smyrna there was one feature for which Carthage presents no parallel. There was no fleet of Christian battleships at Carthage looking on at a situation for which their governments were responsible.... English, American, Italian, and French ships were indeed anchored in Smyrna's harbor. Ordered to maintain neutrality, they would or could do nothing for the 200,000 desperate Christians on the quay:
"The pitiful throng-huddled together, sometimes screaming for help but mostly waiting in a silent panic beyond hope-didn't budge for days. Typhoid reduced their numbers....On the American battleships, the musicians on board were ordered to play as loudly as they could to drown out the screams..."--Nicholas Gage, Greek Fire, Alfred A. Knopf, 2000 --END QUOTE

to me all religions are bad, none is better or less violent than the other.

I never said and will never say that Islam or many of the other religions is peaceful, but people here make it sound like every muslim is a terrorist while they forget that their own "peaceful" religion has killed millions of people already

and a christian is forced to follow the rules too, right? A monk or priest these days has to submit bodily (no marriage anymore, though that was added later on) and mentaly (you have to accept it)

and what about the crusades? that's a war in the path of God too... not forgetting that the "New World" got butchered too to create that "one world one religion" ideal...

all I'm trying to say here is that before saying ANYTHING about Islam killing people and being aggresive, you have to remember that a LOT (if not all already) religions have done the exact same thing

how dumb to say. Hindus arnt violent at all. Heck they dont even swat flys

Hindus not violent huh, well read a bit about when India parted into two nations; India and Pakistan .

saying all religion is bad will just p!$$ off a lot of people here.

they should accept not everyone believes their religion

Religion isn't bad. What's bad is the amount of distortion ppl make about their religion. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam all of them have suffer miscopsections (sp?) and ppl twisted for their own agendas.

We are in agreement Finti.

Im stil refusing to fiew Buddhism as violent, simply because its not really a religion as much as its a philosophy of the way of life

I have few friends that are muslim, and they never threatened to blow me up.

I was always well welcomed in their home, i was even invited to celebrate ramadan with them. I wasnt requiered to pray or do any things they do, but i was given lots and lots of food and i got some presents too. droolio

I think there are people who are extreamist, and are using religion to start a war. There are good and bad people in all religions, as long as no one is forcing their views upon me, or is making me convert to their religions or sects, its all good.

the truth hurts

I myself am not against religion but dislike extremism.

what do you lay in held back

i'm sorry...i don't understand that statement

what do you mean with held back, what is being held back

eh not all of us have cried out about our political leaders, see here you generalize as you do with muslims. Go to Turkey and see how they have it there. That is a muslim country and it is pretty free when it comes to most things you stated above. Spain must be considered a christian country and during the Franco regime nothing much was really free then, more like you mentioned in your post. Take a some of the South American countries, cant speak to freely in all of them, and those countries are highly religious in a christian way. Israel censor the press they aint a muslims country, they suppress the muslims and other Arabs in their country though.

they are aiming to be part of the EU so they wont monkey around jepordizing that opportunity by having restrictions on freedom of press and people and so on.

never called my political leaders evil

Journalist risks violent attacks from extremists not government, CIA who the hell trusts them, they try to make all governments that are of a none chrisitan view look bad

if it is religious opression you looking for well as Islam is younger than chrisitanity they have some years to go before we can compare them on equal terms . When chrisitianity was around 1400 years they were oppressive as hell. Wonder why that age was called the dark ages.

A wind of change will hit muslim countries too one cant oppress and withhold all info from the outside world ,and when that time comes they might have their renaissance as well.

yerrsot - in all likelyhood our debate has somewhat gone off the mark as we didn't state the reason why islam has or has not held the arab world back...we've discussed everything from the early muslim expansion to the bloody and failed crusade...

even as to which is or is not peaceful and to which of the two were or are bloodier in comparison...had we had this same conversation in a room with educated and intelligent moderators of religious history, they would come to the same conclusion...that you and I have reached an impasse...as well with finti

we may be right or we may be wrong in our insight to such a volatile subject...especially when we let reason take a backseat to our emotions...yet I and I do think you as well, have tried to avail our thoughts with reason and intellect without it being tainted with what our heart is concerned with...to do so would muddy what is already a cloudy subject and to others who may look at it with a jaded view...

but I conclude, that whatever the answers are to the question that ash posed will never truly be known...for it may be varied or it may be none...only time will tell...and let us hope it will not be a repeat of history...

your counterpoints to my points have been refreshing in that you pose it with intelligence and forethought and a thorough understanding of history and current events...it has been an honour and truly wonderful to have met my match or my better...

it was fun

i concur...

If you're hinting that I have to disagree with you, ... I don't see it

I just wanna get rid of some prejudice there are and showing not everyone is a saint... so... someone saying that the Koran and the Bible have bad stuff in it... yeah, that's true and the leaders of those religions have done a lot of bad things too

so...what was the point again?

thats just common knowledge so they are both right

i wish that was true

I partly agree... but some people claim to be the leaders from a religion, saying that they get their powers directly from god and are the highest power on earth...

it is whan you mix political ideas with religious idealistic you got trouble brewing

holy war sounds like the work of another ...western presi...person

doesn't take away of course that there are lines in almost every religious book that are full of prejudices/hate/ ...

I think that a president shouldn't have his religion mixed with his work
too bad that some president mix them both and make holy wars and stuff, but i think they're absurd, if you want to be a christian be one if you wanna be a jew be one if you wanna b a friggin islamic hell b one! but i think is stupid the fact that they both get mixed up